Are casino dice fairly balanced?

Are casino dice fairly balanced? This question comes up a lot and I believe they are -- I think the casinos have no reason not to use fairly balanced dice because the casinos can win no matter how you bet since it is a negative expectation game and the casino has an edge.

In fact, if a casino used unbalanced dice players could determine that and immediately start playing the way the dice are tumbling -- if more 7s were showing, players could switch to the darkside. If more 11s were showing, players could bet the field more often, and so on.

But I was curious about what was on the Internet about fair dice and unfair dice and what has been written about dice being fairly balanced or not. And I discovered this website and page:

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspo...ced.html#links

The web page talks about melting casino dice and that the white pips on the dice are made of a heavier material that doesn't melt as easily as the cubes themselves. And the writer claims this makes the 5 and 6 faces of the dice heavier.

If so, would this mean 1 and 2 are more likely to show face up?

I took two casino dice and placed them with the 5 and 6 down. The top number is of course 3 since the opposite numbers of all dice add up to 7. So if the 5 and 6 were weighted, theoretically, a 7 would never show. But the craps number 3 would show up more often-- theoretically.

Now, with 1 and 2 showing on top, here are the numbers that i would get on all four vertical sides without rotating the dice:

4-1
6-3

by rotating the dice, keeping 1 and 2 on top, I can also get on the vertical:

4-4
4-6
4-3
5-1
3-1
2-1
4-1

now, with the dice showing 1-2 on top, just by rotating the die showing 2 by one face, I can get:

1-1
1-6
1-5
1-4

and by rotating the die showing the 1 by one face I get:

5-2
2-2
3-2
4-2

Now, with the one on top and rotating the die with the 2 showing by one face, I get these numbers:

1-1
1-6
1-4
1-3

Now, with the two on top and rotating the die with 1 showing by one face, I get these numbers:

5-2
2-2
3-2
4-2

Now, by the reasoning of the original writer, 6-6 should be the heaviest sides down. So let's show the numbers with one rotation with 6-6 on the bottom:

1-1 on top

rotating the right die by one face:

1-3
1-2
1-4
1-5


rotating the left die by one face we obviously get the same results:

1-3
1-2
1-4
1-5

That's a pretty good distribution of numbers with rotating each die one time, but it is not a complete distribution of numbers. There is no 5-5, there is no 3-3, there is no 5-3, there is no 3-5.

Does it mean dice are in fact biased? I don't know. But I do think it's curious.

Alan-I used to feel secure that the games were honest when they were run by the mob. The mob understood that they had an edge in every game and that the math would work for them long term. However, I don't have that same sense of security now that the casinos are corporate owned, as there is no one that can cheat and steal like a major corporation trying to please its shareholders. Also, the corporation is being run by people who have no knowledge or understanding of the games.

So are the dice fixed? You and other craps players whom I speak with have noticed less and less good rolls.

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Originally Posted by regnis

So are the dice fixed? You and other craps players whom I speak with have noticed less and less good rolls.

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But if craps players noticed fewer "good rolls" they could take advantage of that and play the "darkside" which means you would make more money when 7outs come faster.

But the question is if the dice are actually weighted, and if so, then certain numbers would not come up as often while other numbers would come up more often.
In the case of this blogger who says the 6s and 5s are heavier, there are fewer 6-6, 5-5, 6-5, 5-6, 3-3, and 5-3 and 3-5 and 3-6, and 6-3, but there is no increase in the number of 7s. So if true, someone would bet less on those particular combinations, and would put more money on 1-1 and 1-2 and 2-1 which favors "darkside" and "horn" and "field" bets. In fact, if it is true that 6-6 is the heaviest and favored "down numbers" then betting aces (1-1) and the horn, and any craps, and the field should make you rich.

I always said if I have to play the don't, I'd rather go up to the room and "%&*($%)&(". Way too boring. The don't is for a guy like Arci.

But there are some casinos that still have an "over/under" bet. If what this guy says is true, the under would be a great bet.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I always said if I have to play the don't, I'd rather go up to the room and "%&*($%)&(". Way too boring.

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I have to think about that for a while. Way too boring when you win money? Hmmm.

Alan

This question has been all over the craps boards, some players say the dice are not balanced. Which anymore is true, because of the cheap dice they are using. The bean counters are buying the cheapest dice they can.

The win % is up in AC, did all the craps player all over this country suddenly turn into bad shooter? Or could it be that it's from the effect of these dice that they are using?

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Originally Posted by superrick

The win % is up in AC, did all the craps player all over this country suddenly turn into bad shooter? Or could it be that it's from the effect of these dice that they are using?

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I am going to guess that most shooters in AC are "right way" shooters. So if we switch to being darkside shooters (from the don't) do we win?

Which raises the question we all ask ourselves as we see less and less good rolls. Have they altered the dice? Or is it the bouncy tables? Just bad players?

And you know Alan that most of the time when the dice are bad both the "do" and "don't" players seem to lose because the proliferation of "7's" is bad for everyone.

I always laugh when the don't player thinks he is betting "with the house", not understanding that the house edge is the same either way.

Anyone who thinks casinos, who provide huge amounts of revenue to the states, are beyond reproach and in fact would not do anything...ANYTHING...to improve profits, has never understood business and has had their eyes and ears closed to what has been going on in the US business sector for the past five or more years. What? The casinos are all run by priests? How trustworthy are those guys.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Anyone who thinks casinos, who provide huge amounts of revenue to the states, are beyond reproach and in fact would not do anything...ANYTHING...to improve profits, has never understood business and has had their eyes and ears closed to what has been going on in the US business sector for the past five or more years. What? The casinos are all run by priests? How trustworthy are those guys.

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OK. Now guys, allow me this one question to Rob. Would win goals and short term strategy be even more important in such an environment? I can, for example, see where casinos would allow small payouts to entice a player to continue and get caught up in the casino atmosphere.

We need to learn to quit while we are ahead, but if we are chronic gamblers the odds will catch up to us. Dice are dice but for reasons unknown, a hot streak without sevens or sevens timed perfectly on comeout rolls comes around and if you are aggresively pressing or power pressing during these special hands, good money can be won! It's not the dice...it maybe the bouncy tables but I am sure the dice are still square.

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Originally Posted by slingshot

OK. Now guys, allow me this one question to Rob. Would win goals and short term strategy be even more important in such an environment? I can, for example, see where casinos would allow small payouts to entice a player to continue and get caught up in the casino atmosphere.

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That's what they've always done and the player has to adjust to what they believe is going on around them. Today, I don't play much and when I hit a decent winner I leave. I usually don't have a win goal. And, if I take $1000 with me, lose a bunch of it, then get up $40 or so then I'll leave feeling very good.

This debate about dice having "bias" or not being "fair" is raging over on Wizard's forum. I admit I have been one of the leaders in challenging those who claim the dice are rigged. I want evidence and proof.

Their "tally sheets" of several hundred rolls or even thousands of rolls are nothing but circumstantial evidence.

If you want to prove that the dice are biased, weighted or not fair, then the dice need to be cut up and weighed. Counting roll results won't cut the mustard. You have to cut the dice and see if the 6-side weighs more than the 1-side and if the 5-side weighs more than the 2-side and so forth.

Why not get a hold of some dice and have them analyzed. I have over the years picked up a few strays that went off the table into the crowds at my local casinos. Don't think you can do it in Vegas as there is more room and hard to make the snatch without them seeing. But here the casinos are tight and crowded and a die can disappear. Where would you have it analyzed?

If I really thought that the dice were not fair, I would hire a lawyer, subpoena the dice as part of a lawsuit and have them tested. But I think the dice are fair. I have seen shooters at the same table using the same dice from the bowl go point-seven one after another, and then a shooter rolls for a half hour and makes a ton of money for everyone at the table.

Yes, I guess you could intentionally throw the dice off the table, and have someone snatch 'em instead of returning them.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If I really thought that the dice were not fair, I would hire a lawyer, subpoena the dice as part of a lawsuit and have them tested. But I think the dice are fair. I have seen shooters at the same table using the same dice from the bowl go point-seven one after another, and then a shooter rolls for a half hour and makes a ton of money for everyone at the table.

Yes, I guess you could intentionally throw the dice off the table, and have someone snatch 'em instead of returning them.

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In a dispute with a local casino which was mentioned in a previous thread I filed an administrative review with the gaming board and demanded a copy of the tapes for that craps table at the time of the dispute. They admitted (or lied) that they were unable to produce the tapes. I imagine they would do the same with the dice. However, I do think that they ruled in my favor just to shut me up and make me go away.

Are the dice always "fair and balanced" at FOX news casino?

All casino dice are 3/4 persuasion cubes I'm not gonna get my scale out and way them its like a 1/2 a gram every cube made by the manufacture is given a weight to be called persuasion dice if you are that bad at throwing dice play the dark side or go visit dicecoach.com and he can show you how to use the bones properly IE dice the casino is not going to risk there license on a hot shooter or like they have done to me at Ceasers and take the dice away and be asked not to play there
but what they can do is do a dice change usually at the end of there shifts

amish dude thanks for joining us. You raised a point that I often think about. Why would the casinos risk altering the dice to make right way shooters lose when the players could just as easily bet the darkside?

If I knew the dice were rigged to make the shooter 7-out I just as easily could bet the don't pass, and the don't come, and lay the numbers instead of place them.

These allegations of rigged dice make no sense.

Again thanks for joining.