Answers About Dice Control; general and personal

[Thought I'd start a new thread, although I will answer some questions made in another thread. So you'll have a Part One and a Part Two.]

PART ONE:

QUESTION: How different or standard are tables today? How many different basic types are there? Do casinos customize their tables? Are some (cheaper or older) tables likely used for lower limits, others for higher limits, or do most places use same tables for both?

ANSWER: Each table has its own particular characteristics. Even in the same casino tables that look exactly alike will be somewhat different. If you talk to major league pitchers they will tell you that each mound, supposedly graded and shaped the same way, is different. Some casinos like to have all their tables the same length; other casinos like to vary the table lengths. Bellagio (when I was last there before I was booted) had tables all of the same size; Borgata in AC had three different sizes – 12ft, 14ft and 16ft. Second part of the question I can’t really answer.

QUESTION: Did you practice on certain types of tables? Are these tables still in use or are there models of tables that have come and gone, like auto models?

ANSWER: It took me three years of play in casinos before I got competent. It never dawned on me to set up a practice rig at home. Then again in my early casino career, I would go to casinos around 100-140 days per year so I did get plenty of table time. Now, I practice in a box; just to get my throw down. I no longer really bother with the numbers or faces thrown in practice. I will shoot for 15 minutes or until the first seven shows. After that, I go back to work.

However when I passed various tests of my skill, I used a real table. I know some shooters think they can roll the dice hundreds of time in a practice session but I think that is not the way to go. There is a fatigue factor, both mental and physical in this. If you take the dice three to five times a session in a casino, chances are you won’t be getting more than 100 throws all totaled unless you really get hot. My greatest roll (89) probably saw me shoot another two times where I had rolls in the teens or lower. I never got to even 150 rolls that session.

QUESTION: How important is the levelness of the table? In a place like Mandalay, which is supposedly settling and not necessarily completely level throughout, would that affect what an influencer is trying to do? How consistent is the levelness of any casino floor?

ANSWER: You’d want the tables to be level. I am guessing that casinos will use something to show a table is level. Never was asked this question before.

QUESTION: How many types of dice are there? Have different styles come and gone? What do you look for/not look for in the dice?

ANSWER: Big dice; red; not glazed.

QUESTION: If you practice on one type of table with a particular kind of dice, can you be effective on other tables with other dice, or should you restrict yourself to identical makes?

ANSWER: You have to be able to adapt to the different tables. There used to be poker players who became experts in only one game but when that game faded, they couldn’t play the other games with very much skill. You do have to be able to adapt.

PART TWO: SOME THOUGHTS

Dice control or influence is not Annie Oakley-type ability. The edge is not large. If the shooter sets the Hardway set, he is just trying to avoid the seven. This is a statistical event and takes thousands of throws to show any demonstrable skill. When I was tested using the Hardway set, I did four sets of 5,000 rolls each. It was a royal pain in the you-know-what. Also my results were not so hot – I did have control but it was not super. I never wanted to do the SRR because in the 12 years before I took that test I never used the Hardways set; I always used 3-V.

However, when I took the SmartCraps tests I did not have to do anywhere near that number of rolls. I am a good on-axis shooter and the Hardway set is actually a set that hurts me. If you keep the dice on-axis for a decent percentage of time, you must move to another set or you could face something of a disaster with the Hardways set. Still, very few players have the axis control needed to switch to sets such as 3-V or 2-V (although many think they do because they haven’t tested themselves; they base their use of sets from a few sessions where something seemed to work). The SmartCraps tests showed me that for all the years I was setting the 3-V that was the set most favorable to me.

My rolls tend not to be of the epic variety but I am good at grinding out wins. Yes, I have had dynamite sessions where I thought I could never seven out but I have had sessions where I can’t get past 10 numbers before sevening out – and those short sessions can be winners.

There is an argument in anti-dice-influencing circles that no one has been tested using these methods. And, of course, everyone throws down the challenge, “I’ll meet you and you prove to me that you can do it.” Or “I will bet you $10K [or whatever] to prove to me you can do it.”

Here’s how I was tested. I wrote above about the SRR (I was adequate) and the SmartCraps tests (I was excellent). The SRR numbers were not witnessed all the way through by anyone. So you’d just have to take my word for it (although why I would cheat and just make myself adequate beats me). The SmartCraps testing was done in front of two witnesses, one of whom was a mathematician.

Has anyone ever seen me play for any extended period of time in casinos? Yes. Author Henry Tamburin has played at the tables with me for many years. Of course, I could list all the members of my Five Horsemen craps team, other instructors in Golden Touch and students, but if you thought I was lying you could claim they would be lying too.

The following well-known individuals have taken my classes (I am only doing private lessons now): Henry Tamburin, Stanford Wong, John Grochowski, Gus Rose and Don Catlin; all authors and a couple of mathematicians. Jean Scott has played at the tables with me but not enough to be able to prove anything – she made money and was quite happy as I recall.

As for non-gambling writers; Playboy had a writer follow me around Vegas for a week. He took a private lesson from us but really had no skill since he was totally new at it. Still for a week he played every day, every session with us. Harper’s magazine sent a writer to take our class and go to the casinos with us. Glamour also did a feature about us.

I have done DVDs of my throw. You can buy one that is still available. These throws are not edited and you’ll see that clearly as some stink to high heaven. On that DVD will be Jerry “Stickman,” Dom “the Dominator,” and Bill “Ace-10” Burton.

As for television, Dominator, Sharpshooter and I took on three casinos (Gold Coast, Sam’s Town and Sunset Station) for real money on the A&E network. This show was not edited in terms of our throws or the results. Whatever happened happened. If we won, we won; if we lost, we lost. We won. If our throws looked good; they looked good. If not, not.

So I did what I thought I should do to prove I could do what I said I could do. I have no interest in doing these things again. I actually enjoy the controversy on the subject.

The bottom line for any dice controller/influencer is how much money has he made in the casinos. Ultimately that will be the test. Since I have been playing steadily for almost 25 years I can answer that question with satisfaction. (Don’t ask me how much I have made.)

Last (and a repeat here): Dice control is not consistent. You don’t win every time you get the dice; you have good and bad streaks; even in good streaks many of your throws wind up being random (that’s why the edge is not monstrous).

I have written a lot here but I am going on one of my casino trips and these last for quite a while. I do not make arrangements to play with anyone other than a teammate or two.

Hopefully this post will satisfy Alan (who is hard to satisfy) and anyone else who thinks about these things.

All the best in and out of the casinos,

Frank

Thank you Frank. That is a lot of important material to digest. I gave it only a quick read, so I will have to go back and study it some more.

A couple of things that stood out even from a first read: you talk about having a small edge and grinding out wins. What should someone expect to win in a session or a day or a weekend? I understand that table minimums differ and so does betting, but is there a percentage gain that might be called a target win amount?

How do you know when to call it quits? Is it because of fatigue or do you use win/loss goals? Thanks!

PS. I can be satisfied... I just have high standards. :D

Wow! Alan, you got me just as I was heading out. I would want to make $2,000-$3,000 per day (the specific goal is rarely reached for good or ill). My betting would be $300 to $500 when I get the dice but should I get hot I would increase on up to table maximum if I can (I am slow in that direction). Often I will bet on only one number --- six as my point and $300 on the six as a place bet. (That is my SmartCraps main number, followed by the eight. Two weeks ago I hit 11 eights out of 12 numbers and 26 eights out of 45 numbers for that turn. Sounds good. You can also say, "Well, anyone can do that just through luck.") Often I will have three bets out there --- come with odds; maybe a placing of the six or eight. (I play a 5X odds game.)

I usually play with Jerry "Stickman" so I will go up on him with the same kind of money.

If there are random rollers at the table (we tend to play very, very early in the morning) and the table is a $5 minimum I have no problem betting one $5 come bet with full odds after the shooter makes it through the 5-Count. I don't care how the random shooter does; I barely watch the game at that point. To be on a hot shooter, a player has to be on every shooter --- and that is a losing proposition.

I remember Stanford Wong thought I was wrong to think in terms of fatigue when it came to shooting the dice but after a short time he realized that the focus could take it out of you. I will go three to five times with the dice and that is that --- unless I am super hot.

Gotta go Alan. Wish me the best!

Frank

Great to have Scoblete aboard, and hopefully this helps to get more craps discussion as it always seems to end with just you and me, Alan. As you know, I am a firm believer in dice control and, though I have had no interaction with Scoblete I do take him at his word. I do know people who have taken his course and said it's BS, but I think they just couldn't master the throw. I love the 26 8's as one of my biggest rolls contained 18 8's and I definitely use a more aggressive press than what he describes. My numbers are 8 and 10, and there is a different throw for a hard 10.

Curious that the math guys aren't all over Scoblete--the math is the math--the 7 will come every 6th roll. The odds on a 6 are 6-5, yet you get paid 7-6. The odds of a 9 are 3-2, yet you only get paid 7-5. Where is the outrage that is directed to Rob Singer?? Or is it just because Scoblete isn't obnoxious whereas Rob is shall we say "confrontational".

Thanks for those very educational answers.

I think "the math guys" AKA "The Sane" recognize that Frank isn't rolling dice inside an RNG. No magic luck, no magic progression, no magic win goals/stop loss. Sounds like, gulp, an advantage player.

A couple of things in defense of the idea of dice influencing and dice control:

While the casino has the edge if it is possible to alter the appearance of certain numbers on the dice it is possible to overcome that edge. With a RNG you have no control. Since the dice are thrown by the shooter, a skilled and talented shooter might be able to alter the outcome.

There are detailed books and studies about the "mechanics" of dice control or dice influencing (the term I prefer) that include position at the table, angle of the throw, set of the dice, speed and direction, where on the back wall to hit, keeping dice on axis, etc. Theoretically it all makes perfect sense. The question is can a human being actually do it?

I think humans can do it and frequently. But then comes the next question: can a human influence the dice enough times to actually make a significant difference?

Frank has introduced to us the idea of having a set goal and this happens to be realistic. I really believe that some people can influence the dice by a certain degree and with a certain frequency. And by knowing when to quit -- or what can be called a "hit and run" strategy -- it just might be possible.

But I have said this from the beginning: I am not sure this is a skill that can be learned. I have also said, it doesn't hurt to try.