Playing the "comp game" and how to lose it.

I think I shot myself in the foot playing the "comp game" with the Total Rewards program. I'm not sorry I did it because I got what I wanted... and I may have gotten what I deserved.

Over the past couple of years I decided to take advantage of all of the free play and shopping sprees and offers I could get without overspending on my entertainment (gaming) budget. It worked for a while. But the system caught up with me.

For much of 2011 and early 2012 I was a very frequent visitor to Caesars Palace but my play for each trip was limited to a certain fixed amount. Over the course of a year it totaled up to be high enough to have four times the points needed for 7Stars. But in mid-2012 the value of my offers was cut by about 70-percent. During that same time, a friend of mine who had about the same number of tier points (which is based on annual play) but who visited Caesars only a few times during the year did not suffer a cut in his "offer value" and in some cases it was even increased. Why would my offers be reduced and his offers be increased when we had the same number of tier points?

Well, the explanation I got was that while my level of tier points came from many different visits, his similar level of tier points came from fewer visits making him more valuable since he played more per visit.

This year the same thing appears to have happened with me at Harrah's Rincon, another Total Rewards property. I was diligent in taking advantage of the many daily and weekly free play offers, and while my tier score this year is already above 691,000 I have seen the value of my offers at Rincon cut by more than half during the course of the year. Again I believe that while my total play is high (691,000 tier points is more than four times the required amount for 7 Stars), the value of my play per visit is low plus I've taken advantage of "too many" free play offers.

There is another reason why my "offer value" has dropped and that is how my value has changed as a player. In years past I played games with a higher house edge including 9-5 Double Double Bonus video poker with an expected return of about 98% but now I play 8-5 Aces and Faces video poker with an expected return of about 99.2%. The difference is that I play longer and score more "tier points" with the same budget.

The big point is that you can "milk" these comp systems for only so long before they catch up with you. That's the game. Cows don't give good milk forever.

Cue Rob's scolding and backlash...

Alan, I mentioned before that my casino also uses a per visit average to determine free play, etc. That is one reason why I limited myself to one long visit per week. The humorous side effect of this is I have continued to receive free play since I stopped playing in early May. I still am getting my maximum free play. I suspect if you changed your approach you would eventually see your freeplay increase. At my casino it is based on your most recent 13 trips.

One of the tricks I've used when only collecting freeplay is to switch to my wife's card after downloading the freeplay. It appears this confuses the system and I get no play on the days I only collect freeplay. YMMV.

Well the good news is at least you were able to get more free items and fun than your friend. You had those extra visits which you reported about where you got free food and play.

Now as you said the Harrah's offers are low to the point where you no longer feel it's worth it to go and you can do big Caesar's trips like your friend and get the same high trip offers since you will be spending 4 to 5 Harrah's trips worth of money. Add to all this you still get your Seven Stars benefits.

Hope it all works out for you Alan and you have an enjoyable trip and the generous offers start to flow back in.

I was back at Rincon on the first - the only day that it was "economically worthwhile" for me to go there based on my free play offers. And I had quite a night hitting quad aces for $2,000 plus a nice run of quads and left with a healthy profit and scored... ready for this.... 11,700 tier points in one night. I really don't know if that will be good or bad for the next time my offers and play are reviewed. I had a lot of play over six hours.

By the way, I have one "bad hold" to report. Playing Aces and Faces I was dealt Kd Qd As and two small cards. I held the suited KQ as I should and on the draw came three aces. Damn.

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

One of the tricks I've used when only collecting freeplay is to switch to my wife's card after downloading the freeplay. It appears this confuses the system and I get no play on the days I only collect freeplay.

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At Rincon I was told that there are no "points" awarded when you play the "free play." So what I've been told to do by other players is after downloading the free play I should withdraw my card from the machine. The free play credits will remain on the machine. Then I should insert my card again. And then when I play the free play, the points are supposed to accumulate. Any info on this??

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

By the way, I have one "bad hold" to report. Playing Aces and Faces I was dealt Kd Qd As and two small cards. I held the suited KQ as I should and on the draw came three aces. Damn.

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Alan: If others are correct that the draw cards are continuously shuffled until the DRAW button is pressed it wouldn't matter at all what you see because it would have been extremely unlikely those three aces would have shown up if you had just held the ace. You would have pressed the button at a vastly different moment.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

Alan: If others are correct that the draw cards are continuously shuffled until the DRAW button is pressed it wouldn't matter at all what you see because it would have been extremely unlikely those three aces would have shown up if you had just held the ace. You would have pressed the button at a vastly different moment.

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I agree with you. But you hate to see this.

One thing I would caution against is treating Caesars/Harrahs as synonymous with all gaming companies or gaming in general. We don't know what the face of gaming will be like in a decade. The idea that the money-hemorrhaging mess that is Caesars/Harrahs will continue to be some kind of blueprint for all casino companies may or may not be true. With any luck, they'll finally be allowed to fail.

It's clear they made a corporate decision to reward those people who play more per visit with the predictive models saying those folks can be massaged into more big trips, as opposed to those playing less per visit, who it's felt won't be making more and more excursions. Evidently number of visits is considered to have more concrete limitations than loss-per-visit. That's a fascinating conclusion by Caesars/Harrahs. They want you to lose control in each visit, not necessarily grace their presence with multiple visits.

When you think about it, it's an obvious and cynical model. Each trip requires outlays by the visitor for gasoline or airfares -- Harrah's doesn't really get a piece of those. So to extract a larger percentage of your budget, they prefer visitors take fewer trips while blowing more money gaming as opposed to traveling.

I wanted to add -- you realize why Rob gets mega-comps for his amount of play now, right? He fits the model -- short bursts of wild, denomination-jumping play with very short visits. The computers must love him! He probably projects as a real cash cow, so he'd get the royal treatment with minimal play.

redietz I agree. The philosophy at Caesars seems to be: We prefer a player who will take one room for one night and play two thousand dollars, than a player who will take one room for two nights and play two thousand dollars. Or:

Preferred Player A One night, $2,000 play
Less preferred player B Two nights, $2,000 play

But from a business standpoint that makes sense for them: they only have to give up "one room night" for the same amount of play.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I wanted to add -- you realize why Rob gets mega-comps for his amount of play now, right? He fits the model -- short bursts of wild, denomination-jumping play with very short visits. The computers must love him! He probably projects as a real cash cow, so he'd get the royal treatment with minimal play.

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This is possible that he gets big comps because he is viewed as a high roller. But it is also possible that his comps are restricted if he is really winning as much as he is winning. And most comp systems are based on coin in. If his wins are coming with minimal play he has very little "coin in" and doesn't get comps.

I want to tell a story that I told before, about a craps player at Caesars who had a $25,000 budget for the weekend. He got to the hotel and on his first day there he ran into terrible luck at the craps table and lost his entire $25K in just a few hours. At the end of his trip he was told he would not be comped because he didn't play the "required four hours per day, each day." It didn't matter that he dropped $25K in a couple of hours.

Well, he did "appeal" and eventually was comped for the weekend as usual, but it just goes to show you how whacky their comp systems are. By the way, this was before Total Rewards and back in the old days of RFB.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

This is possible that he gets big comps because he is viewed as a high roller. But it is also possible that his comps are restricted if he is really winning as much as he is winning. And most comp systems are based on coin in. If his wins are coming with minimal play he has very little "coin in" and doesn't get comps.

I want to tell a story that I told before, about a craps player at Caesars who had a $25,000 budget for the weekend. He got to the hotel and on his first day there he ran into terrible luck at the craps table and lost his entire $25K in just a few hours. At the end of his trip he was told he would not be comped because he didn't play the "required four hours per day, each day." It didn't matter that he dropped $25K in a couple of hours.

Well, he did "appeal" and eventually was comped for the weekend as usual, but it just goes to show you how whacky their comp systems are. By the way, this was before Total Rewards and back in the old days of RFB.

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I thought Rob didn't get comps or accept them?

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Originally Posted by a2a3dseddie

I thought Rob didn't get comps or accept them?

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As a professional or as a casual player? He seems to have different rules and conditions.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

As a professional or as a casual player? He seems to have different rules and conditions.

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I just want to press the DEAL/DRAW button at the best nanosecond possible, professionally OR casually. I'll even forego all my future casino comps and grocery deductions for this valuable timing skill.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

I just want to press the DEAL/DRAW button at the best nanosecond possible, professionally OR casually. I'll even forego all my future casino comps and grocery deductions for this valuable timing skill.

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Wouldn't we all!!

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

As a professional or as a casual player? He seems to have different rules and conditions.

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Not surprising that you have not yet absorbed this. I talked to a Verizon rep today who never did get the question after 40 minutes. Of course, he too was an Obama voter. His jive voice gave him away.

I've always used and always still do use a slot card, with the sole exception being from sometime in 2005 thru early 2009 ONLY WHEN PLAYING SPS, because of being barred from playing after winning too often at Harrahs on the Strip & Bellagio. I did play more of my other strategies during that time--always using my cards.

I have recently been restricted from slot club points at machines at the Eldorado, and Casino Fandango will no longer let me play vp above dollars. Unimportant, as we are leaving the area for warmer temps in NM, Texas & Az. next week.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Not surprising that you have not yet absorbed this.

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Sometimes it's hard to keep track of what you say. So much of what you say is lost among the garbage in your posts.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

At Rincon I was told that there are no "points" awarded when you play the "free play." So what I've been told to do by other players is after downloading the free play I should withdraw my card from the machine. The free play credits will remain on the machine. Then I should insert my card again. And then when I play the free play, the points are supposed to accumulate. Any info on this??

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Points are not credited at my casino either, this means you don't know when you've played through the freeplay unless you count hands, cash out regularly or wait until one point shows up. By switching to my wife's card I could just let the point show up. In addition, a friend indicated that even after pulling his card the point would show up on his account giving him a short session. It must keep track of the last card in the machine.

As for trying to accumulate points, this does not happen at my casino after inserting my wife's card until the freeplay goes through once. So, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work by reinserting my own card.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Sometimes it's hard to keep track of what you say. So much of what you say is lost among the garbage in your posts.

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Readers remember what they read only when they want to remember it. Garbage is only in the mind of the beholder, esp. when that "garbage" hits too close to home.