SLOT MACHINE AP's

I got involved in a thread at another forum where a slot designer / programmer, offered to answer any question about slots. He designs slots for land based casinos and another member who operates an online casino also contributed. Interesting to say the least.

I brought up AP’s who insist they beat certain slot machines in the long term, claiming to make a comfortable living doing this. I then gave him some examples of quotes.

His first response was Quote: “ Other than some well documented Russian guys that cracked the RNG of some older games, as far as I know there is no way to "Beat slots".. if there was, I would be rich!

To be honest I've never heard of Elliot Jacobson so I can't comment on him or anything he's said.”

I then linked him to Eliot Jacobson’s old AP Heat site where he directly discusses the AP advantage playing slots. I also followed with this comment to him Quote [I]“Being able to successfully Advantage Play certain slot games for long term profits could be considered beating slots. I'm rather surprised by your professional comment above. Are some programmers / designers that far out of the AP loop?

If you read the link above written by E.J., it would appear that AP concerns were considered often during programing.

Quote from E.J. "Over the years she has sent me numerous PAR sheets to ask for a second opinion on possible advantage play strategies."

He responds Quote: "Sorry... I get what you mean now. And no we don't really care about this type of AP as they're doing nothing wrong. Any game with progressive jackpots will reach a point where it is in your advantage to play... Of course you still have to win it. Some games even advertise when a progressive is over its average value which no doubt encourages AP in that respect.

They aren't beating the game."

The online casino operator says, Quote:
"It is not rocket science.

Jackpot hits and of course every single spin made then is going to get closer to the jackpot. Everybody can claim that after a few million spins on a slot the jackpot is going to get closer.

It can, of course, theoretically hit the next spin after the jackpot was hit, but statistically speaking that is not very likely.

They are not advantage players, they are just using statistics in my opinion."

The slot designer also adds Quote:
"Exactly - and the "must hit by" slots are purposely designed to get people to play them more the nearer they get... So whilst you might have a slight RTP advantage in the short term, you aren't going to pay your mortgage off because of it!"

Anyone here have any questions you would like me to ask him?

Ask him why it took so long for the Majestic Lions Share progressive to hit at MGM? It took 20 years and paid $2.4 million.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Ask him why it took so long for the Majestic Lions Share progressive to hit at MGM? It took 20 years and paid $2.4 million.

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Don’t think he was developing games 20 years ago. Wonder how many AP’s got their ass handed to them with the math calculations on that game.

Looks like this guy never heard of the vultures on this forum. And who says an "AP" has to actually HIT a slot jackpot to make money? Haven't you ever heard of "theory" and "I'll be making $75/hr. on that play"? Doesn't he know that phantom bucks count just as much as real bucks?

You're talking about uncapped progressives. I wouldn't touch them. The easier beatable ones are the must hit bys. Now naturally, they're still profitable for casinos due to the civilians that play them when they're too low.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

You're talking about uncapped progressives. I wouldn't touch them. The easier beatable ones are the must hit bys. Now naturally, they're still profitable for casinos due to the civilians that play them when they're too low.

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I agree with you on this. But how many are there? The last time I was at Rincon about two years ago they had four of these. Max bet was something like $3 to win something like $1000 and the meter went up vvveeeerrrryyyyy ssssllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by jbjb

You're talking about uncapped progressives. I wouldn't touch them. The easier beatable ones are the must hit bys. Now naturally, they're still profitable for casinos due to the civilians that play them when they're too low.

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I agree with you on this. But how many are there? The last time I was at Rincon about two years ago they had four of these. Max bet was something like $3 to win something like $1000 and the meter went up vvveeeerrrryyyyy ssssllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy.

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Some locations have tons of them. I've not been to Rincon so I can't speak for them. I don't remember many in Vegas either. But then again, I'm not looking for them when I'm there. Personally, I only know of about 4 different AP'able slots that aren't progressives. And there aren't very many of them that I've seen.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like the guy has a deep understanding of advantage play concepts.

He never heard of Eliot Jacobson. He thinks APs play (uncapped) progressives at high amount levels because they believe the jackpots are more likely to hit. He dismisses actual, profitable AP situations as "just using statistics," or "not rocket science." He uses the word "whilst," indicating he's probably more European-focused than US.

Please invite him to the forum here. Maybe he can fill in when Rob is unavailable. :D

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Ask him why it took so long for the Majestic Lions Share progressive to hit at MGM? It took 20 years and paid $2.4 million.

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Don’t think he was developing games 20 years ago. Wonder how many AP’s got their ass handed to them with the math calculations on that game.

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AP's didn't play the game. Only dummasses that might have called themselves AP's played it. AP's don't go after jackpots where the frequency of the top line hit is in the millions to one. Only stupid people do that.

Was the guy who hit it for $2.4 million a dummass too, mickeycrimm?

I'd love to be a dummass like that.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Was the guy who hit it for $2.4 million a dummass too, mickeycrimm?

I'd love to be a dummass like that.

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Yes, the lady that hit it was one of the multi-thousands of dumasses that played the game. The machine made a hell of a lot more money off all the dumasses than the lady won. Now, if you're going to start the "I'd rather be lucky" bullshit then go play Megabucks everyday for a year then come back and tell us how your luck was.

We all would. Or the ones that win Megabucks, Mega-Millions, Powerball, etc. But how many millions more lose all of their money at these games compared to the minute few who hit?

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Originally Posted by blackhole

I got involved in a thread at another forum where a slot designer / programmer, offered to answer any question about slots. He designs slots for land based casinos and another member who operates an online casino also contributed. Interesting to say the least.

I brought up AP’s who insist they beat certain slot machines in the long term, claiming to make a comfortable living doing this. I then gave him some examples of quotes.

His first response was Quote: “ Other than some well documented Russian guys that cracked the RNG of some older games, as far as I know there is no way to "Beat slots".. if there was, I would be rich!

To be honest I've never heard of Elliot Jacobson so I can't comment on him or anything he's said.”

I then linked him to Eliot Jacobson’s old AP Heat site where he directly discusses the AP advantage playing slots. I also followed with this comment to him Quote [I]“Being able to successfully Advantage Play certain slot games for long term profits could be considered beating slots. I'm rather surprised by your professional comment above. Are some programmers / designers that far out of the AP loop?

If you read the link above written by E.J., it would appear that AP concerns were considered often during programing.

Quote from E.J. "Over the years she has sent me numerous PAR sheets to ask for a second opinion on possible advantage play strategies."

He responds Quote: "Sorry... I get what you mean now. And no we don't really care about this type of AP as they're doing nothing wrong. Any game with progressive jackpots will reach a point where it is in your advantage to play... Of course you still have to win it. Some games even advertise when a progressive is over its average value which no doubt encourages AP in that respect.

They aren't beating the game."

The online casino operator says, Quote:
"It is not rocket science.

Jackpot hits and of course every single spin made then is going to get closer to the jackpot. Everybody can claim that after a few million spins on a slot the jackpot is going to get closer.

It can, of course, theoretically hit the next spin after the jackpot was hit, but statistically speaking that is not very likely.

They are not advantage players, they are just using statistics in my opinion."

The slot designer also adds Quote:
"Exactly - and the "must hit by" slots are purposely designed to get people to play them more the nearer they get... So whilst you might have a slight RTP advantage in the short term, you aren't going to pay your mortgage off because of it!"

Anyone here have any questions you would like me to ask him?

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Someone should ask Mathextremist on WoV about Vacation U.S.A, a slot game he developed in the 90's. ME is a game designer/programmer. We walked all over that game and ME swore he would never develop a game like that again. Anyone can ask him about that game on WoV.

BH, ask your programmer dude if he knows anything about accumulator slots.

Does anyone really care about accumulator slots, unless of course you have the time or the need to walk through casinos looking for two bits here or there.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

You're talking about uncapped progressives. I wouldn't touch them. The easier beatable ones are the must hit bys. Now naturally, they're still profitable for casinos due to the civilians that play them when they're too low.

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The words of the AP Anthem: THEY fill them up, and WE hit them!

It's a casino fact that the majority of the slot and vp "+EV" jackpots are hit by what ap's call "tourists".

The joke, as usual, is always on them.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Someone should ask Mathextremist on WoV about Vacation U.S.A, a slot game he developed in the 90's. ME is a game designer/programmer. We walked all over that game and ME swore he would never develop a game like that again. Anyone can ask him about that game on WoV.

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ME still lurks at WoV but hasn't posted since January.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Does anyone really care about accumulator slots, unless of course you have the time or the need to walk through casinos looking for two bits here or there.

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Your statement above is about as stupid as it gets. Really fucking dumb. Represent it any way you want to. That's your ignorant business. My nut on the road is well over a hundred dollars a day. Two bit plays don't pay for that and I ain't out there to make a hundred dollars a day. Five hundred dollars a day is my speed. If you don't believe it I don't give a rats ass. Now climb back under your rock, dunce.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Someone should ask Mathextremist on WoV about Vacation U.S.A, a slot game he developed in the 90's. ME is a game designer/programmer. We walked all over that game and ME swore he would never develop a game like that again. Anyone can ask him about that game on WoV.

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ME still lurks at WoV but hasn't posted since January.

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He would probably answer questions on Vacation U.S.A. if you started a thread on it.

Crystalmath, also of WoV, develped a video keno game called Jackpot Rockets that is in Montana. He was surprised to learn I was vulturing his game. He hadn't thought about the game being exploitable. I told him how I was doing it. He did some math then agreed with me that the game was vulturable.

None of the non-AP's really want to get to the bottom of anything. All they want to do is stay in the dark eating shit just so they can complain about unsubstantiated claims.

V I was just in your neck of the woods. I found vulturable games at CW.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Someone should ask Mathextremist on WoV about Vacation U.S.A, a slot game he developed in the 90's. ME is a game designer/programmer. We walked all over that game and ME swore he would never develop a game like that again. Anyone can ask him about that game on WoV.

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ME still lurks at WoV but hasn't posted since January.

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He would probably answer questions on Vacation U.S.A. if you started a thread on it.

Crystalmath, also of WoV, develped a video keno game called Jackpot Rockets that is in Montana. He was surprised to learn I was vulturing his game. He hadn't thought about the game being exploitable. I told him how I was doing it. He did some math then agreed with me that the game was vulturable.

None of the non-AP's really want to get to the bottom of anything. All they want to do is stay in the dark eating shit just so they can complain about unsubstantiated claims.

V I was just in your neck of the woods. I found vulturable games at CW.

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Do you know how stupid that sounds? A guy named crystalmath "developed" some slot game that shows up in Montana, high school dropout and self-proclaimed homeless hobo/Nevada gambling loser mickey spots it and claims to be beating it, then he for some reason claims to tell the game developer about it, and math expert crystalmath then capitulates to mickey by announcing he made a great big mistake!

Just another huge load of bs from the worst storyteller here. Tell us, are you aware that all new machines go through a comprehensive computerized mathematical program that analyzes every possible payback scenario, and a report us given to, among others, the game's developer?

You see mickey, your "vulturing stories" are running dry and getting old, thanks to your made up lies about it all. Your lack of education just got you caught again.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by MisterV

ME still lurks at WoV but hasn't posted since January.

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He would probably answer questions on Vacation U.S.A. if you started a thread on it.

Crystalmath, also of WoV, develped a video keno game called Jackpot Rockets that is in Montana. He was surprised to learn I was vulturing his game. He hadn't thought about the game being exploitable. I told him how I was doing it. He did some math then agreed with me that the game was vulturable.

None of the non-AP's really want to get to the bottom of anything. All they want to do is stay in the dark eating shit just so they can complain about unsubstantiated claims.

V I was just in your neck of the woods. I found vulturable games at CW.

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Do you know how stupid that sounds? A guy named crystalmath "developed" some slot game that shows up in Montana, high school dropout and self-proclaimed homeless hobo/Nevada gambling loser mickey spots it and claims to be beating it, then he for some reason claims to tell the game developer about it, and math expert crystalmath then capitulates to mickey by announcing he made a great big mistake!

Just another huge load of bs from the worst storyteller here. Tell us, are you aware that all new machines go through a comprehensive computerized mathematical program that analyzes every possible payback scenario, and a report us given to, among others, the game's developer?

You see mickey, your "vulturing stories" are running dry and getting old, thanks to your made up lies about it all. Your lack of education just got you caught again.

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Rob, you are as stupid as they come. You don't even know what vulturing is dummazzzzz. Geez, what an idiot.