Printable View
Aruze Gaming based in Vegas is the maker of Shoot To Win Craps. On their website they call it mechanical craps. They do not refer to it as a slot machine.
I emailed them and specifically asked if it's a slot machine and if it is how does it comply with the regulation of a minimum 75% return.
I'll post their response. I emailed their media relations department.
Alan, do you have any plans to e-mail/call Interblock Luxury Gaming Products (http://www.interblockgaming.com/) to ask them the same question (they also are a major manufacturer of machine craps) ? What if their opinion differs from Aruze Gaming and you never solicited an opinion from them on this matter ? Which companies' opinion gets priority if their opinions differ ? What's for certain is that machine craps (bubble craps) is not a table game since table games require a dealer(s)/stickpersons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Never knew about the Interblock Gaming machine. Sure, I'll email them.
What would you call a blackjack game that has a video screen and no live dealer? Is that a slot machine or a table game?
They're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Alan, you said something earlier about a "guaranteed return." Slot machines, whether it's video poker or whatever, don't have guaranteed returns. They have theoretical returns. To determine the optimum theoretical payback of a video poker you have to calculate the strategy first then multiply it by the payoffs. The equation is:
Probability X Payoff
The payoff for 9/6 Jacks is advertised as 99.54%. But that's only with optimum strategy. If you are a player that plays the 3-card royals over the high pairs then the theoretical payback is reduced to 99.47%. Every change you make in the optimum strategy reduces the payback of the game. Because it's a game of choice a player has the ability to severely reduce the payback...even to below that state's theoretical minimum of 75%. Here's a question to ponder:
What theoretical payback would a blind person have playing 9/6 Jacks?
Somewhere in my memory I seem to remember that if you held all five cards every time the payback would be about 55%.
In the case of craps, whether it's live or machine, there is nothing you can do to alter the theoretical payback of any bet. If you make a passline bet it has a theoretical return of 98.59%. And there is nothing you can do to change that. The Any Seven bet has the worst theoretical payback of any craps bet, 83.3333%. It's well within the state's theoretical minimum payback of 75%.
Alan, while you are at it ask Aruze about their Dealer's Angels blackjack consoles. It was a beatable game at one time. Ask them about the changes they had to make to the game to stop the AP's from beating them.
And the money these games make is reported under Slot Machines in the Nevada Gaming Control Board Gaming Revenue Reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by quahaugThey're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAnd the money these games make is reported under Slot Machines in the Nevada Gaming Control Board Gaming Revenue Reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by quahaugThey're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Hey folks,
I have never played these games, but it did occur to me that I know a handful of people who have played these games, and for reasonable stakes, as in $50-$70 a pop, which goes about every 30-40 seconds on the mechanical craps game. It was clear to all of these people that they were getting comp points at a rate for slot play, not table play. That doesn't, by itself, make it a lock to be a slot machine, but it is suggestive.
So a couple posters on this forum are wondering if Bubble Craps and other e-table games are slots. Mickey astutely found out that the Nevada Gaming Control Board considers these games slots. So a governing body which has the definitive verdict on this defines these as slots and yet a poster is going to contact Bubble Craps manufacturers to see if these games are considered slots even though these companies must answer to the Nevada Gaming Control Board for any games they wish to operate in the State of Nevada. At least with respect to the state of Nevada, I find this exercise pretty silly since the board, with their overarching authority has defined these as slots.
Here's a surprise:
According to the maker it is an "Electronic Table Game."
I now have calls in to three departments at the NGC:
Taxation, Enforcement, Technology
Mickey can you point out where on your print out it mentions Shoot To Win craps is listed as a slot?
Please ask if they can explain the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
As most all can see, the above 2 numbnuts, Alan and Betty both lead rich fulfilling lives, lol.....Alan, shouldnt you be working on keeping wife #12 happy?....and Betty, don`t you have jockstraps to scrub before practice?.....2 miserable putz`s
I'm now retired Biloxi Bill. In fact, I no longer live in California and I will probably never set foot in Tony's office again. Happy?
Let me ask this question: why would a casino have an option about which tax rate to pay?Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyPlease ask if they can explain the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Maybe they lobbied for a regulation like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Why would slot machines be taxed at a lower rate than table games anyway? Do they generate less revenue per square foot than the tables?
I have now spoken to two out of three divisions of the NGC.
Enforcement said they believed the video poker game with a dealer on a screen is a slot, and they believe that "bubble craps" is a slot.
Taxation says these are both "electronic table games" but fall under the slots category "because an RNG is used."
STOP!!!!
If an RNG is used for Shoot To Win craps, I asked, does that mean the RNG controls the dice and not the bouncing of the table?
For that question I was referred to Technology and I am waiting for a response to the question.
I don't know for sure that they are taxed differently overall, perhaps they pay fewer fees on a slot.
Of course they are controlled by an rng. A human arm connected to a hand that tosses dice against a wall with little diamond shaped thingies on it is also an rng.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The way the game was explaimed to me is that the big dice have a chip on each side which tells the machine which side is up. The vibrations of the table rotate the dice. There was no RNG spinning reels or choosing numbers.
That was the explanation I got when the machine first appeared.
Now am I supposed to understand that an RNG actually rotates the dice and moves the floor in the game? I'm having trouble with that being the case.
I'm going to guess that the RNG is involved in the movement of the table floor.
I still haven't got a response from Technology and I asked the media relations person of the company for a phone call.