Comp etiquette: If you invite someone to dinner on your food comp, what are they expected to pay?

Interesting discussion came up recently on the Twitter/Facebook of a poker player named Allen Kessler.

Kessler is a notoriously cheap and value-obsessed poker player in his 50s. He's a strange guy and annoys a lot of people with his constant complaining, but he and I get along because we both like calling out dishonest or unfair shenanigans in the poker world.

Most recently, Kessler and another poker player, Cliff Josephy (also known as Johnny Bax) got into an argument while at the same table of a WSOP event.

The argument had a few elements to it, but I'll skip to the one I want to discuss here.

Kessler does a lot of machine play and earns a lot of comps. It appears that he's an AP., but that's not really important for this discussion. When he gets the comps, he often extends an open invitation to people in poker to come dine with him.

Kessler claims that he had a bad experience recently where he had a $60 comp and had a few people at the table eating cheap appetizers and drinks with him. When the bill came, it ran slightly over, and Kessler wanted the group to kick in $12 (combined) for the small overage and tip. He claims that the people with him started balking at this, and it was like pulling teeth to get $12 out of them.

When Kessler told this story at the WSOP table, Josephy (who already was irritated with Kessler over something else) mocked him for getting into an argument with his friends over a matter of $12.

The whole thing spilled over to Twitter and Facebook.

To my surprise, some people insisted that Kessler "inviting people" to come eat with him constituted him committing to pay for everything.

"He should pay any overages and tips because he invited them out to a comp meal", some people reasoned.

I completely disagree.

I have always been a believer that "casino comp etiquette" dictates that the person with the comp NEVER pays out of pocket for anything, provided that the final bill comes fairly close to the comp amount. The people leeching off the other guy's comp should come up with the money for the tip and any reasonable overage.

Here's what I wrote on Kessler's Facebook about the matter:

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It looks like there's some debate whether the people with Allen that night really were cheapskates/ingrates, or if it was just a misunderstanding, so I'll forego comment on this particular situation.

However, I think some people misunderstand the concept of "casino comp etiquette", which has pretty much existed for decades.

Just because you invite someone to dine with you "on your comp" doesn't mean you are committing to give them a free meal. There's still the matter of the tip (comp can't be used for that), and the matter of any overages which occur.

Casino players like Allen often get mailed or awarded medium-sized or large, one-time-use comps, which can only be used for food and beverage. At that point, Allen has two choices:

1) Use it for himself and let the rest go to waste
-or-
2) Invite others to share in the food in order to use up the comp

This is VERY DIFFERENT than "taking someone out to dinner" or offering to pick up the tab.

This is saying, "I have too much food credit to use on myself, would you like to come and use the remainder I can't?"

It's still very generous, because Allen EARNED these comps through his casino play. By sharing his comp with you, he's giving you something for free that you didn't earn.

In appreciation for doing that, the person/persons eating the comp meal is expected to cover the tip and any small overage which occurs.

I'm not talking about covering an overage where the comp is $50 and the bill is $450. I'm talking about situations like this, where the comp is $60 and the meal is $64.

The basic rule of thumb: If the bill comes out fairly close to the value of the comp, the guy providing the comp should walk out paying zero cash out of pocket.

Why? Because he's already contributed MORE THAN ENOUGH by paying for almost the entire meal with his comp.

Many people would call me a cheapskate, and yet I always make sure to pay for the full tip AND any overage when someone takes me out for a comp meal. I'm not just virtue signaling. I went out to several meals on others' comps over the past 7 weeks, and I immediately volunteered to pay the full tip each time. Similarly, when a friend went with me on my comps, he offered to pay the tip, and I didn't argue, and let him do it. That's the way it works.

If you are so entitled that you think Allen's "invite" means that he's going to cover overages and the tip out of his pocket because you graced him with your presence, even though you're eating with HIS comp, then you either don't understand how all of this works, or you're an ingrate.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Interesting discussion came up recently on the Twitter/Facebook of a poker player named Allen Kessler.

Kessler is a notoriously cheap and value-obsessed poker player in his 50s. He's a strange guy and annoys a lot of people with his constant complaining, but he and I get along because we both like calling out dishonest or unfair shenanigans in the poker world.

Most recently, Kessler and another poker player, Cliff Josephy (also known as Johnny Bax) got into an argument while at the same table of a WSOP event.

The argument had a few elements to it, but I'll skip to the one I want to discuss here.

Kessler does a lot of machine play and earns a lot of comps. It appears that he's an AP., but that's not really important for this discussion. When he gets the comps, he often extends an open invitation to people in poker to come dine with him.

Kessler claims that he had a bad experience recently where he had a $60 comp and had a few people at the table eating cheap appetizers and drinks with him. When the bill came, it ran slightly over, and Kessler wanted the group to kick in $12 (combined) for the small overage and tip. He claims that the people with him started balking at this, and it was like pulling teeth to get $12 out of them.

When Kessler told this story at the WSOP table, Josephy (who already was irritated with Kessler over something else) mocked him for getting into an argument with his friends over a matter of $12.

The whole thing spilled over to Twitter and Facebook.

To my surprise, some people insisted that Kessler "inviting people" to come eat with him constituted him committing to pay for everything.

"He should pay any overages and tips because he invited them out to a comp meal", some people reasoned.

I completely disagree.

I have always been a believer that "casino comp etiquette" dictates that the person with the comp NEVER pays out of pocket for anything, provided that the final bill comes fairly close to the comp amount. The people leeching off the other guy's comp should come up with the money for the tip and any reasonable overage.

Here's what I wrote on Kessler's Facebook about the matter:

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It looks like there's some debate whether the people with Allen that night really were cheapskates/ingrates, or if it was just a misunderstanding, so I'll forego comment on this particular situation.

However, I think some people misunderstand the concept of "casino comp etiquette", which has pretty much existed for decades.

Just because you invite someone to dine with you "on your comp" doesn't mean you are committing to give them a free meal. There's still the matter of the tip (comp can't be used for that), and the matter of any overages which occur.

Casino players like Allen often get mailed or awarded medium-sized or large, one-time-use comps, which can only be used for food and beverage. At that point, Allen has two choices:

1) Use it for himself and let the rest go to waste
-or-
2) Invite others to share in the food in order to use up the comp

This is VERY DIFFERENT than "taking someone out to dinner" or offering to pick up the tab.

This is saying, "I have too much food credit to use on myself, would you like to come and use the remainder I can't?"

It's still very generous, because Allen EARNED these comps through his casino play. By sharing his comp with you, he's giving you something for free that you didn't earn.

In appreciation for doing that, the person/persons eating the comp meal is expected to cover the tip and any small overage which occurs.

I'm not talking about covering an overage where the comp is $50 and the bill is $450. I'm talking about situations like this, where the comp is $60 and the meal is $64.

The basic rule of thumb: If the bill comes out fairly close to the value of the comp, the guy providing the comp should walk out paying zero cash out of pocket.

Why? Because he's already contributed MORE THAN ENOUGH by paying for almost the entire meal with his comp.

Many people would call me a cheapskate, and yet I always make sure to pay for the full tip AND any overage when someone takes me out for a comp meal. I'm not just virtue signaling. I went out to several meals on others' comps over the past 7 weeks, and I immediately volunteered to pay the full tip each time. Similarly, when a friend went with me on my comps, he offered to pay the tip, and I didn't argue, and let him do it. That's the way it works.

If you are so entitled that you think Allen's "invite" means that he's going to cover overages and the tip out of his pocket because you graced him with your presence, even though you're eating with HIS comp, then you either don't understand how all of this works, or you're an ingrate.

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This is just proof positive how fucked up you and all of your poker pals are. Not all poker players are this messed up but the ones doing it for a living or at least trying to do it for a living are this fucked up. I seen Phil Hellmuth pull a scam about how he can't tip because he only had euros on him at the time. I played poker for many years and worked in poker for years as well. It is a fucked up culture beyond repair. It was more fun before the 2004 explosion but it is just a new style of fucked up.

To quibble over money just goes to show you how fucked up you and your pals are.

When I invite someone to dinner I pay all the bills and tips even when I am using full comp. I don't invite people to dinner and expect anything from them and I actually don't expect anything from anyone in general. Many times players will say they want to chip in for the tip or add money to the bill if needed before dinner and I agree. However when the bill comes I basically refuse any compensation. I didn't invite said person to dinner because I need or want money or that I feel it is some sort of test about etiquette. This is the main problem with you and most people. They actually care about the money compared to caring about individuals and time spent with dinner guests.

Many players in all aspects are some fucked up people in general. I know many players who have tons of comp but don't want to tip so they invite people to dinner on the basis that the player will comp the meal and the other people will pick up the tip. It is a straight Con so that the player doesn't have to lose any cash out of pocket. They could care less about the person they are dining with.

Recently I had a personal item stolen from me that I had 16k invested into. Insurance most likely valued it at around 2k-5k but this kind of thing doesn't bother me. They wanted me to jump through 7 different hoops to get reimbursed. I don't have time to fret over such Bullshit let alone some Bullshit about a dinner bill.

Just to be clear I went to the 4 queens last night and had a small get together with 5 other people. When the bill came it was for roughly 565 dollars and I used my comp for the whole bill. A few people at the table tried to compensate a few dollars or chip in for the tip but I refused that. I left 120 dollars for the tip. I don't invite players or people to dinner and try to go dutch. However when people or players invite me to dinner I expect the same type of treatment. Guests don't pay... that is why they are your guests.

People like you and your poker friend make me sick.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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IMO....the person using the comp shouldn't have to pay out of pocket. Like you said, he's already put up a (big) comp. The guests should pay the tip and any overage. Although, it's kinda trashy on both ends to argue over the overage+tip. Just pay it and don't invite that flea next time you have a comp.

In a civil response....I've taken many people to dinner with comps as a jump-start, but I can't think of one time (but I likely have) where I told them I was using comps before the bills came. If I invite folks out for a meal then I will always pay for it in its entirety because it's my responsibility at that point. The only exception I make is if they absolutely insist on paying the tip and I believe them. And I can tell if they're sincere or not on this based on a career of experience.

There's a lot to be said against the penny-pinching that goes on among gamblers. I certainly don't get any of it. If someone's willing to throw thousands around playing casino games then why on earth would anyone want to get involved in even THINKING about a hassle over 12 bucks, comps, etc.?

The key to a happy life is to simplify it. Looking for conflict is like texting while driving in city traffic.

There are several ways to look at this but I'll tell you what I would do.

1. If I was inviting people to dinner/lunch/drinks on my comps I would be prepared to pay the tip myself because I made the invitation. If a guest offered to pay or share the tip I would gratefully accept but I wouldn't ask.

2. If anyone asks me for dinner/lunch/drinks I always offer to tip whether they're paying with comps or not.

Get the $12 from the suckers, errrrr, "backers" that give these fake "pros" the money to play these tournaments.

I believe in paying for anyone that I invite to dinner and that includes tip. Comps or not. However, most people that I choose to associate with are most likely going to insist on taking care of the tip. This thread is an example of the poker community mentality. A bunch of self obsessed and selfish losers with a few exceptions.

If they do not at least OFFER to chip in or pay the tip they do not get a second chance to mooch off me.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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I think it really depends on the context. If I am out with college students or relatives of any age, I use the comp and am a happy to pay any overages and tips. Same for when I am with a woman but not because I am interested in action but just because that's how my Papa raised me.

But when I am with buddies at the same relative economic level, I would expect that they take care of the tip and any minor overages. I have never had any issues as they volunteer to do so. It does make it easier, however, if I mention before we order that I have a comp for a certain amount. That way the people with me may decide for example to have a steak rather than an expensive seafood tower given the comp budget.

FAB

I can't believe there's a concern here. In the first place, I would be sure of my comps. Even as a quarter player I wouldn't treat guests this way. Maybe this is a picture of the way he plays- doesn't keep up with where he is, hopes for comps to make up for bad play. For real?

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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I think it really depends on the context. If I am out with college students or relatives of any age, I use the comp and am a happy to pay any overages and tips. Same for when I am with a woman but not because I am interested in action but just because that's how my Papa raised me.

But when I am with buddies at the same relative economic level, I would expect that they take care of the tip and any minor overages. I have never had any issues as they volunteer to do so. It does make it easier, however, if I mention before we order that I have a comp for a certain amount. That way the people with me may decide for example to have a steak rather than an expensive seafood tower given the comp budget.

FAB

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This a good response, and it's how I treat it, as well.

I've taken broke/semi-broke friends out to comp meals before, and I've never expected they pay for the tip or small overages. That's an asshole thing to do, I agree.

However, anyone financially stable who is dining on MY comp which I earned should at least be appreciative enough to take care of the tip and small overages. If they don't volunteer to do this, then they're ingrates who somehow feel that I owe them a meal when in reality I'm just trying to be generous and allow them to share in something given to me.

Some of the people responding negatively in this thread (money, MaxPen, etc) are just trolls who want to attack poker players, so I won't bother responding to them.

However, I think some of the rest of you are misunderstanding the point of the "invite" to dinner.

When you offer to "take someone to dinner", indeed it's a cheap/tacky move to expect that person to cover any part of it. I've had people come into Vegas who enjoy my forum and/or radio show, who have offered to take me out to dinner in appreciation. While I will sometimes offer to pay the tip anyway, I agree it would be really tacky to say, "Yeah, I invited you to dinner, but actually I was expecting you'd pay the tip here."

So I get that line of thinking.

But comps are different.

When you have a comp, you're only going to that particular restaurant because you're entitled to a certain amount of free food there. And when you have too much free food to where it's far more than you could eat, that's when you try to come up with ways to allow friends/acquaintances to benefit from it, as well. But it's not the same as taking someone out to dinner. It's you doing a favor for people and letting them share your comp so the rest of it doesn't go to waste.

Kessler gets a lot of comps and is very public about the fact that he's inviting people to dinner with him only because he has excess comps he can't use by himself. The people who went with him were all aware of that.

The problem is that some people invited end up being ingrates who believe that being "invited" to this somehow means that you're entitled to a fully, 100% free meal. So once they're expected to pay for the tip and/or a small overage, they flip out and act like they got cheated -- rather than realizing a FAVOR was done for them, and they're only paying a very small percentage of the price of the food they just consumed.

It all comes down to your basic philosophy regarding favors.

If someone does me a favor out of the goodness of their heart (such as offering me to share in their food comps), then my reaction is to think, "That's very nice! Now what can I do for them?" And I recognize that a tip needs to be paid, so I offer to cover it -- especially because the tip is larger DUE TO MY PRESENCE!

Ingrates will think, "Hey, he said it was a comp meal! Why am I reaching into my wallet? Fuck this guy, let him pay!"

Outsiders to the casino/Vegas scene just don't understand the whole situation with comps and often feel unjustifiably entitled.

A few years ago, an acquaintance in Vegas wanted to get tickets to Celine Dion. This person knew I had a lot of Rewards Credits at Caesars, and asked if I could help.

I realized this person didn't understand the way RCs worked (that you could bank them indefinitely and, at the time, exchange them for freeplay at 1.25:1 ratio), so I explained the situation to them.

"Yes, I have a lot of RCs, but they can be used for a whole lot of things which are valuable to me. They don't expire, and I can even exchange them for freeplay at 80% value. So they're not just worthless comp dollars which I can waste. But since I can exchange them for freeplay at 80%, how about I just do the equivalent and charge you 80% of the price of the Celine tickets?"

This person's face turned into a scowl, and their voice got agitated.

"What? 80%? You're crazy, dude! I was thinking something like half!", they responded angrily.

"I can't do that," I explained. "I can actually exchange these RCs for freeplay for 80%. So if I get you the Celine tickets for many hundreds of dollars and only collect 50% from you, I'm costing myself a lot of money. Again, these aren't just useless or expiring comp dollars. I can pretty much turn them into cash at an 80% rate, so why would I sell them to someone for 50%?"

"Look, they're comps," they snapped back. "I thought you wouldn't be so greedy about it and be fair with me. I guess money is all that matters to you."

BTW, keep in mind that the 80% thing I was offering was NOT doing me any favors. I would have to go down to Caesars with them to purchase the tickets, plus I tend to like to hold the RCs for meals at 100% value instead of the 80% on freeplay, so I was still giving up something. I was trying to do this person as much of a favor as I could without screwing myself, but they just refused to understand.

Also, this wasn't a close friend, or even a friend at all. It was an acquintance I knew through poker, and we had never spent any time together socially outside of large groups.

Some people just have an amazing feeling of entitlement to other people's things.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

BTW, keep in mind that the 80% thing I was offering was NOT doing me any favors. I would have to go down to Caesars with them to purchase the tickets, plus I tend to like to hold the RCs for meals at 100% value instead of the 80% on freeplay, so I was still giving up something. I was trying to do this person as much of a favor as I could without screwing myself, but they just refused to understand.

Also, this wasn't a close friend, or even a friend at all. It was an acquintance I knew through poker, and we had never spent any time together socially outside of large groups.

Some people just have an amazing feeling of entitlement to other people's things.

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Wow, imagine that, a self obsessed selfish poker player. You call me a Troll for pointing it out and then tell a story verifying my accusations as truth. No wonder you can't get control of your sites. You are internally confused. Probably too much time at the poker tables. You need a vacation.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Some people just have an amazing feeling of entitlement to other people's things.

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This is why I quit taking non-gambling friends on reward trips. All the free meals from reward dinners and credits turned into expectations that I would pick up the tab everywhere. Even with all the choices between Mlife and CET it created resentment that I wasn't willing to pick up tabs at places that didn't accept either of those system's points as payment. I'm happy to go to Old Homestead or Nobu or Javier's and spend a couple hundred when except for the tip it is not coming out of my pocket. If I'm paying I'm eating like I usually do which is at less expensive places. I'm happy to go to those other places and pay my own way, but not to pick up the tab for everyone, and not when I'm on a trip specifically because I have tons of comps and dinners to use up that I've already in a sense paid for.

MaxPen since when are you not a troll... and an asshole?

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I believe in paying for anyone that I invite to dinner and that includes tip. Comps or not. However, most people that I choose to associate with are most likely going to insist on taking care of the tip. This thread is an example of the poker community mentality. A bunch of self obsessed and selfish losers with a few exceptions.

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It is obvious that you deal with both cultures or communities. I haven't dealt with the poker side for about 7 years but it hasn't changed that much from my understanding. Poker Players as a whole and that is a high 99% of the so called "pro players" are some sick individuals. Myself Included. One of the most funny things to me is the types that refuse to take part in any collusion with poker but they will stiff every dealer and any tipped position employee. Not only will they stiff everyone but they will constantly preach about why they stiff them and break down the money lost annually or how they are saving thousands upon thousands from not tipping. It is just ugly plain and simple.

If you invite players or people to dinner and you are not upfront with your intentions than the person who invited said players to dinner is responsible for all bills and tips. If you want to tell someone that you have a comp and we should go to dinner you should make it known to that person right there that you expect them to chip in on the tip or take care of the tip or take care of overages. The problem is these players don't say anything till after the bill comes and than the war breaks out. They are most likely doing it to push buttons or start an argument because gamblers in general love to needle one another.

Most of the time and I am sure you understand this Maxpen is that players like myself or you or others are inviting many bust outs or rail birds to free dinner. How can anyone expect rail birds or bust outs to chip into the bill for anything. These people have been in town for decades so it is known who they are and it is many, many players in general. However the bust out is much more common in the poker community compared to the machine world.

The point is poker players will pay some huge vig on some tournament or huge rake but they get all riled up about tips and paying for dinner. Sick Poker Players love to pony up even extra money for add ons before the tournament making the Vig even worse. If you just do the math on poker from the Vig and Rake standpoint it is a very difficult game to beat and this is why most of the players and even the "pros" are broke and I mean dead broke. Not to mention once you step up into mid level or higher you have all the teams and collusion to deal with and no stupid poker fraud site is ever going to stop that train. However if you talk to poker players in general or as a whole they will explain how easy the game is to beat above the rake/vig... it is pretty funny actually to listen to them and after that they will drone on and on about bad beat after bad beat. You have to be out of your mind to eat dinner with poker players... especially a two hour+ dinner listening to all that crying and complaining. Usually when I buy a poker player dinner I let them eat alone and come back later and pick up the bill.

Look up these two examples of a couple of so called poker pros currently in Vegas basically busted out for over 20-30 plus years... David Kopp and Madison Kopp. Madison has so many AKA's I can't even list them all... She used to go by Kirby years and years ago. They are a good example of the low/mid level Rounder who is always broke trying to generate backers to play Make Up with. Make Up or Percentage or whatever... hate that Scam Shit lol. I could list example after example but I really don't want to get into it much further... I find it boring. As usual, in my experience you have to assess information on a "per individual" basis but gamblers in general are worth avoiding.

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Originally Posted by monet

The point is poker players will pay some huge vig on some tournament or huge rake but they get all riled up about tips and paying for dinner. Sick Poker Players love to pony up even extra money for add ons before the tournament making the Vig even worse. If you just do the math on poker from the Vig and Rake standpoint it is a very difficult game to beat and this is why most of the players and even the "pros" are broke and I mean dead broke. Not to mention once you step up into mid level or higher you have all the teams and collusion to deal with and no stupid poker fraud site is ever going to stop that train. However if you talk to poker players in general or as a whole they will explain how easy the game is to beat above the rake/vig... it is pretty funny actually to listen to them and after that they will drone on and on about bad beat after bad beat. You have to be out of your mind to eat dinner with poker players... especially a two hour+ dinner listening to all that crying and complaining. Usually when I buy a poker player dinner I let them eat alone and come back later and pick up the bill.

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One thing that pisses me and a bunch of others off is what these "pros" PAY to get into these tournaments. Take for example the $1,000,000 buy in One Drop going on as I type this. I want to know EXACTLY what they paid out of their OWN pockets!! The biggest bullshit stat in poker is "career earning." I'll bet most have a negative NET PROFIT!!

I had a similar situation a while back but like adults we figured it out before we went. If Kessler would have said, hey guys I am using comps and will share but you all cover the overage then there is no issue.

I had someone invite me to local steakhouse in casino. He said he had 150 in comps and would treat if I picked up tip. That tip is going to be $40ish. I told him no thanks because my meal would only be $50 and saving 10 was not worth it.

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Originally Posted by GwoAE

I had a similar situation a while back but like adults we figured it out before we went. If Kessler would have said, hey guys I am using comps and will share but you all cover the overage then there is no issue.

I had someone invite me to local steakhouse in casino. He said he had 150 in comps and would treat if I picked up tip. That tip is going to be $40ish. I told him no thanks because my meal would only be $50 and saving 10 was not worth it.

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10 dollars isn't worth it lol... That is funny... nicely done! When I first started out and was basically broke playing machines I made a long term friend with a poker dealer/degenerate gambler type. He would take me to breakfast, lunch and dinner all the time and would get it comped and would expect me to pick up the tips which I agreed to. We became really good friends for 20 years and in the end I was way ahead if you account what he gave me compared to what I gave him. Anyways it took awhile but I realized that what he was doing was asking me or others to nice dinners or whatever but made it upfront that the invitees would have to pay for the tip. That was agreed upon before even going to dinner so no wars broke out but I realized he was really inviting people to said dinner for the company because he liked to be around people and got some high off of helping people or saving them but it was clear he was also doing it to save on cash out of pocket.

A few years back we had a major falling out but it seems he is doing well after going broke losing a half a million dollars. The last I seen he was dealing poker on a cruise ship living the drunkards life hoping from island to island. It must be tough getting back in the box after getting used to playing with 1k and 5k chips.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

BTW, keep in mind that the 80% thing I was offering was NOT doing me any favors. I would have to go down to Caesars with them to purchase the tickets, plus I tend to like to hold the RCs for meals at 100% value instead of the 80% on freeplay, so I was still giving up something. I was trying to do this person as much of a favor as I could without screwing myself, but they just refused to understand.

Also, this wasn't a close friend, or even a friend at all. It was an acquintance I knew through poker, and we had never spent any time together socially outside of large groups.

Some people just have an amazing feeling of entitlement to other people's things.

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Wow, imagine that, a self obsessed selfish poker player. You call me a Troll for pointing it out and then tell a story verifying my accusations as truth. No wonder you can't get control of your sites. You are internally confused. Probably too much time at the poker tables. You need a vacation.

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I call you a troll because you have 138 posts here, and rarely have I seen you contribute any valuable information. Most of those 138 posts are some form of trolling, especially recently.

Your post responding to me, ending with "This thread is an example of the poker community mentality. A bunch of self obsessed and selfish losers with a few exceptions" is obviously an attempt to slam me, since I'm a poker player.

If I were "selfish", I wouldn't be providing TWO forums to the public (plus a weekly internet radio show), ad-free, without even attempting to make money.

Try again.