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Alan, Dancer just wrote about a cruise to Bermuda that all 7-Stars folks get. Are you going or have you already? BTW, you can read his column about it on LVA, and you can see what an a-hole he acted like and how badly he treated "Bonnie" on that wonderful voyage. So he cheated on Shirley to get to Bonnie. He's a control freak, and if she's smart it won't last long. What's esp. funny is seeing an old man acting like a real jerk. He has little time left to atone.
Rob's post was originally in another thread.
I don't go on cruises -- or at least, haven't used one so far. There are cruise offers all the time of various sorts.
The Level IV "7 Stars Experience" for those with 700,000 to 1,499,999 tier points has as an option a "Luxury Cruise" and one of the cruises includes Bahama.
I also qualify for the Level IV but nothing on the list of "experiences" is something I want to experience. There's also going to an LA baseball game, or a New Orleans football game, or golf in Tahoe, or sports events in Kansas City with various airfare credits.
"I also qualify for the Level IV but nothing on the list of "experiences" is something I want to experience" That's because you are a gambling addict Alan and your consumed and and blah blah blah ........
quahaug, my response to you appeared as an "edit." I removed my comment from your post. And here is what I wrote:
If this is a satirical comment reflecting what Rob Singer might say, I am not humored by it.
I think all of the 7 Stars Experiences are designed to make you spend more money at other Caesars casinos that you don't normally play at. And that's really the bottom line when I asked about "alternatives" to the "experiences."
The Dancer column was bad. I can't believe they let those fly unedited at LVA. The columns come across as Rob said -- a woman-bullying control freak. I can't figure out why an editor doesn't try to fix those things. Dancer doesn't need any help from Rob or me to embarrass himself. He does a fine job solo.
If the column you are referring to is the one about the cruise, and his girlfriend "fibbing" about whether or not she went on the cruise ship slides... all I can say is he must have run out of worthwhile material and why he would embarrass her, and why she would allow herself to be embarrassed is beyond my scope of understanding.
At least she didn't "rip him off".Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Anyone know his background before VP? Would be curious what he did and how he became the VP guru, at least in his mind.
He was a database admin in SoCal..
My question is...why are all these big names in vP all seniors??
Guess I need to get cracking on writing books and becoming well known...
Then again, why give away all my secrets, lol
timspeed thanks for joining. Secrets?
All this Bob Dancer nonsense aside, I can answer about the cruise.
All Seven Stars members get a "free" cruise on Norwegian, where they get a balcony stateroom for 2. Only certain itineraries are available. The cruise must be 5-8 days (almost always 7), and it must be on a ship with a casino. This unfortunately counts out the very nice Hawaii cruise that Norwegian does.
Caesar's also hands out a TON of free cruise vouchers in promotions during the year, but these promotions are far inferior to the standard Seven Stars benefit.
Here is what I wrote about the "benefit" a few months ago:
--------------------------
Caesar's and Norwegian have a partnership.
Norwegian provides "free" cruises to Caesar's to hand out to their Seven Stars and other active players.
Caesar's gets the benefit of being able to run promotions around giving away these "free" cruises which don't actually cost them anything.
Norwegian gets the benefit of keeping degenerate gamblers captive on a ship (with a casino) for at least 7 days.
The slots and video poker on cruise ships is typically awful. Jacks or Better often pays 6/5 for Full House/Flush.
Norwegian seems very hard-line about their rules. They want the gambler aboard, and are willing to let him take one companion for free, since it doesn't take up extra room on the ship, and most people don't want to cruise alone. However, they are very hard line about allowing extra people on the ship (relatives, kids, friends, etc) unless they pay near full-fare. Doesn't matter how much you try to convince them that you're a high roller.
Also, the Seven Stars at least get a decent room (balcony stateroom) and a wider choice of itinerary (though the ship must have a casino, which counts out Hawaii). Everyone else is stuck with unpopular sail dates and an interior cabin.
And of course, the port taxes are like $300/person, and tips are not included. Airfare is also not included.
I decided to take the cruise this year. I am tacking on the cruise to my Caesar's annual trip, as it will be leaving from the same city, so I don't have to pay airfare.
Here are few more details:
- You get 10% off staterooms you book in addition to your "free" voucher/Seven Stars stateroom. You CANNOT use two vouchers at once, nor can you use your 35% Seven Stars discount for a second room. Furthermore, the 10% off does NOT include port fees and taxes -- only the base rate (so it's actually less than 10% off overall).
- Tips are not included. You are expected to leave substantial tips at the end of the cruise for the staff.
- As mentioned above, you CAN combine your NCL cruises with other Caesar's promotions (or your annual trip). There is not the usual 48-hour waiting period that applies between back-to-back Caesar's promotions.
- You have until March 31 the following year to take your Seven Stars cruise.
- There are blackout dates. The Seven Stars cruises have fewer blackout dates than the vouchers, but blackout dates (usually popular sailing dates, such as Christmas) do apply sometimes. These change frequently. What is available today might be blacked out tomorrow, so book ASAP when you know what dates you want. You can also sometimes talk them into making exceptions to these blackout dates.
- You get unlimited non-alcoholic drinks and well bar drinks. Typically you have to pay a lot for this, so it's a nice benefit if you like to drink.
- You ARE NOT expected to gamble on the cruise. Your host will not care if you gamble on the cruise. Caesar's does NOT get any kickbacks from your gambling. It's simply a marketing agreement. Gambling on the cruise might get you invited back for free, but I wouldn't recommend it, as the games are TERRIBLE. If you remain a Caesar's Seven Stars member, you will be able to go on future years' free cruises, even if you never set foot in the ship casino.
- If you are going to book a second stateroom at your own expense, and don't really mind being somewhat separated from your travel companions (that is, they may be way down the hall or on a different floor), you can get GREAT deals if you wait until the last minute. This applies to ALL sailing dates, even the popular ones. Just monitor room availability on ncl.com (pretend you're booking a cruise, and they will show you what's available -- you don't need to enter your name or any credit card info). Provided there are plenty of unused rooms, the fares in certain categories (especially the lower ones) will drop big time. Again, this WON'T work if you have specific room location requirements (i.e. wanting your entire family together in two nearby rooms).
- Unless you are a super high roller, your host will not get involved with this. You need to book this yourself directly through Norwegian.
Ask me if you have any more questions.
Dan, forgive me for the Dancer reference, but what you wrote was a helluva better than what Dancer wrote, so let me ask an obvious Dancer question. You mention that gambling on the cruise is not tied into Caesars'/Harrah's in any way. Why wouldn't somebody writing an LVA column mention this (it is kinda important)?
That was good info and spelled out the pros and cons pretty clearly. I have some acquaintances who just received cruise offers from the Golden Nugget, and I'm pretty sure they'll find the same port taxes rules and such to be the standard tariff as you mentioned.
Lots of good info Dan.
On the drinks - are they complimentary only in the casino or can you get cokes and well drinks at any bar?
On the cruise that Rob Singer was talking about to Bermuda - I think that maybe the cruise of discussion was the Seven Star Event that was offered this year. It was out of New York to Bermuda. Heard lots of good things about it.
I'm with Alan: cruises aren't my bag any more. We've been on 5 or 6 of them including two of the European ones, and they no longer have an appeal for us. However, near-mandatory "tipping" seems to appear in every explanation about the cruises. And guess what--nothing is mandatory, and I have never left a cent for the collection of 3rd world drug addicts that grace the bottom deck of the ships.
Sorry, it was complimentary well drinks in the casino only. I had that wrong. I thought it was everywhere, but just looked it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by sassycat
The NYC-Bermuda cruise was a special "Signature Event" promotion, and was a bit different than what I described above.
No idea why they omitted that gambling on the cruise is completely separate from Caesar's. Obviously that's important to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
I would seriously recommend staying away from gambling in the casino, as the machines are HORRIBLE.
The blackjack tournament is actually beatable if you play perfect strategy, provided it has the same rules as the one on Princess. That one had huge flaws in the rules to where the smart player can have a huge edge over nearly everyone else, and I assume NCL is the same way. Still a lot of variance, though.
You are correct that tipping isn't mandatory. Even if they put your tips on automatically (not sure if NCL does this or not), you can "opt out" and leave your own tips, either in cash or through your stateroom account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I do NOT suggest Rob's approach of simply not tipping. Most of the staff consists of generally good, hard-working third-world people, who are sending most of their paycheck back home to their families. They take these jobs because they provide free room and board, so they can essentially survive on the ship for almost no money for months at a time, and send their (meager) salaries home to support the wife/kid/whatever. You really shouldn't screw these people over. They work long, grueling hours, and get paid very little. The money is going to basic needs, not drugs. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is the case with most of them.
However, I do suggest completely opting out and tipping where appropriate.
Opting out prevents workers you didn't encounter from getting your tips.
For example, if you are always eating in specialty restaurants, the servers and maitre d' in the main restaurants should not be getting your tips, as they did no work for you. Instead, give cash tips to the people who actually did serve you.
I would suggest opting out of the tips for your steward, and tipping him cash directly. Otherwise he is stuck sharing it with other stewards, so unless you are going to leave him the standard tip, anything extra will be barely land in his pocket unless you opt out and tip him in cash.
You get the picture.
Rightfully, no one ever felt bad for me while working a pile of menial jobs in my younger years enough to "tip" me, and it's not anyone else's job to care or be concerned about what someone else does or doesn't get paid or can or cannot send home. That's always a weak excuse for those who can't handle the intimidating looks or actions that may come their way after not tipping in a seriously flawed "tipping" situation. Everyone has a choice to find another job if they're unhappy with their pay, and these 3rd worlders have nowhere else to go but up. I've spent and lived in many of those countries, and be assured, they laugh at Americans who think they're helping such "poor" people. They regularly get away with things (what some of you would call "advantage living") only the Obama administration does over here.
My very first job was sorting returned books and cleaning the bathroom at the Nanuet Public Library. I was 14 years old. No one tipped me. But it was not a job where people get tipped. Servers, butlers, dealers get tipped.
Tip this Rob. SCH- CQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
And where is it written that dealers get tipped for merely doing their job? They are not performing a service for you like the butlers and servers are. They simply operate a vehicle of entertainment that's no different than the person who operates the ferris wheel or merry-go-round at the State Fair. Same for those floor people you feel obligated to throw your money away on lest they give you a dirty look, whisper something that could bother you, or how you'd worry about how you look to other players in the area. When have you ever tipped the butcher you asked for a certain cut of meat who then delivered it to you on the market floor? When have you ever tipped a bank cashier who had to go into the safe to fetch a few stacks of hundreds and count it out for you? When have you ever tipped a store clerk who had to go into the back room or the warehouse to find something you came in for and just HAD to have?
As I said, casino tipping is all done thru intimidating the weak, and these people know EXACTLY how you'll feel if and when you did not tip and others were looking on. It is probably the biggest scam perpetrated by casinos overall.
I think we might want to blame the American casino culture for being expected to tip the service staff (dealers, cashiers, slot attendants). It is my understanding that most foreign casinos pay a better base wage than American casino workers receive, and they generally do NOT expect tips from players. The American casino operators make more money from the lower labor costs and the gambler is expected to foot the difference through tipping as compared to the wage structure of many foreign casinos.
Bad examples and irrelevant. None of these occupations are in the service industry where wages are typically at the low end and tipping by customers provides them with additional income. People of your insufferable ilk don't want to accept that employees in service industry jobs are actually an important part of our economy and way of life. As is often stated on the interwebs: SUX 2 B U .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Tipping overseas in any business is either non-existent or it is considered a major insult if you give anyone too much--too much being anything over 2%-3%. Completely different philosophy all around. I don't know about the casino wage structures, but being expected to subsidize workers' salaries here for any reason is nothing more than another method of casinos taking money out of their customers pockets. And those who are incapable of saying no are being played like fiddles by any casino they tip in.
Hey Rob... would you call yourself a cheap SOB?
I spend more money than anybody you know Alan. And I have a vehicle that gets 4-5 mpg that I drive an awful lot. So am I cheap? No one in my family thinks so, and those who serve me meals, drinks, park my car, or move my luggage feel the same. But all those who feel entitled--like casino workers, hotel maids, and indirect 3rd worlders on cruise ships--likely think I am, and I offer them one great big smile!
No doubt VV. But where you're mistaken is in believing it is the responsibility of the customers of the service industry to make up for the shortcomings of their salaries. I care nothing about them, their lives, their families, or their problems. In turn, they care nothing about me other than the work at hand. They get the job done or they get fired. Whether or not I give them a perceived "entitlement" is irrelevant to the work they are doing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic
Are you guys ever going to make more of these?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DF2GuWa72A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0XQX1SQ-kc
Why? Don't we already have more than enough self promoting BS on this forum? But then again, Mr. Sched-C is doing a great job ruining every last bit of credit he has with anybody around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perdition
Of course not (as you have already seen), self reflection is not in his vocabulary. How dare you criticize the man who told God everything there is to know about how to create mankind? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
That's pretty funny Vegas lover.
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya.
All I know for sure is God didn't create the 3rd world drug addicts who migrate to the bottom decks of cruise ships, he had nothing to do with Hitler, and he's still trying to find & punish whoever's responsible for creating Obama.
Believe it or not, I agree with Crackpot Rob when it comes to casino tipping -- sort of.
A recent lawsuit verified Wynn blackjack dealers make $90,000 per year after tips:
http://www.casinocitytimes.com/artic...g-policy-62225
In Vegas' better times (2005-2007), dealers were making over $100,000 per year at high-end strip casinos.
They were making this much because players were made to believe that dealers were "working for minimum wage", and these players felt guilty for having nice blackjack runs and not sharing at least a little of it with the dealer.
In 2005, I was told by a Bellagio insider that their blackjack dealers made $100k per year. That was when I stopped tipping them. I found it both hilarious and sad that people making $50k per year were tipping $100k/year employees out of sympathy, believing them to be minimum wage earners.
In reality, while many casino employees DO earn minimum wage, they aren't working for their wage. They're working for their tips. You aren't truly a minimum wage earner if you also pick up $75,000 in tips on top of that.
However, cruise employees are a bit different.
Most of them are not drug addicts as Rob portrays, but rather hardworking third-world people who leave their families 11 out of 12 months per year in order to support them.
They use the fact that they have no living expenses to send almost 100% of their salary back home to support the rest of their family, and without tips, they would be making almost nothing. Basically, they are giving up their life with their family in order to work for these tips, and even WITH the tips don't make all that much, so I don't want to stiff them. As I said earlier, however, I will not tip staff that don't actually work with me. So, for example, if I don't use the main dining room, I'm not going to tip my assigned water, nor will I tip the maitre d' there.
The article doesn't say what the dealers make without tips. What do they earn without tips?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
I don't tip when I lose. I tip only when I win.
If I tipped when I lost it might indicate that I feel sorry for them for being minimum wage workers. But since I don't tip when I lose and I only tip when I win I therefore must tip for another reason -- other than that they are minimum wage workers. Might the reason be I appreciate their work, and I appreciate the luck they brought me?
No one forces you to tip. That would be wrong to force you to tip. But it's wrong to say others are wrong when they tip unless the other person is asking for advice.
The only tipping advice I would need is if I hit a $400,000 $100/coin royal flush. How much should I tip? I haven't figured that one yet. But I'm not losing sleep over it. It will be a long time before I'll have to think about it.
I wasn't aware of the dealers, but I know about the bottom deckers because I spent lots of time in their countries. These people leave their countries for work on ships first and foremost to be able to feed their drug habits, then to escape the law after committing multiple crimes, and THEN as a result, it's a method of taking care of their stunned and disappointed families.
No amount of virtual justification....and no amount of long-winded posts....will ever support that tipping casino slot staff after handpays is anything but stupid. And even though Vegas Vic likes to look the other way, the notion of tipping a poorly paid casino cashier is 100% comparable to tipping the poorly paid bank teller. It should not be done. The only difference is the bank teller is usually healthy looking, on the attractive side, they have some education and all of their teeth, and they work in a smoke free environment.
Have you ever seen those blackjack betting limit signs with a digital LCD display showing the minimum and maximum bets allowed? They would be digital so management can change the limits on the fly for slow and busy nights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
What about having an LCD digital display of the current (tips included) earnings on the jacket lapels of the different casino and hotel service workers so the public would be better informed as to whether to tip (eg. 'feel sorry') for them? If the salaries are too high on the lapel LCD digital display, their tips will shrivel up until the digital salary display declines during a weekly update done by their supervisors. When it gets down far enough people start to feel sorry for them again and a long-term equilibrium is reached with a newly-informed public?
Yes... and at the same time, players should have a lapel pin showing their win/loss so the dealers and floor personnel know who to be nice to because they are going broke... or who to be tough with because they are winning too much money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Room
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
(laughing out loud)
Actually, I'm not sure about that one, Alan. Maybe you DO want to be nice to winners in the hopes they return later and lose it back anyway?
I am a tipper when I am winning at craps. I never tip if losing. But 1 thing that hasn't been referenced here is that a good group of dealers will know my every move and be able to press or take same bet or whatever if they are paying attention. In doing so, they have made me money at times where I was either tired, distracted (read pretty girl here), or for whatever reason did not give them proper direction. They will say Mr. S--no odds. Or they will press where I forgot to tell them and tell me they did or at least ask me as a reminder. So you can talk about intimidation (which is a no in my case), and you can talk about wages, but how about they help keep an eye on me and don't let me go off my system of betting. A few bucks on a hard way or a few bucks on a number ain't gonna kill me and it buys a lot of benefit.
Also, when I have brought my nieces to Vegas (all for their 21st birthdays). I can have them help my niece (play for nickles) while I concentrate on my own game for big money, and the nieces appreciate the attention anyway. It also helps in any dispute--they will usually try to take my side within reason cause they know it will be appreciated by a few bucks.
Now during a massive roll I was having at the old Maxim hotel (was that the name??), a dealer started asking for a few bets. He got nothing. If he were patient, he may have gotten a few but he wasn't doing anything for me and he had not figured out my simple progression. So no--I wont be bullied into it.
I still remember one time at Bellagio, I had my biggest blackjack hand ever, and the dealer got obnoxious with me before I even decided what to tip. I had just sat down a few minutes before that, so it wasn't about a lack of tips prior to that.
I put down $700 on one hand, which is more than I usually bet (the count was high). I got dealt a pair, so I split it. Then I got dealt the same card again. Split. Then I got deal the same card again. Split. So now the hand was 4 ways. Then two of the hands ended up being doubled, so it was a 6-way hand, worth a total of $4200. The dealer was showing a 5. I had a mixture of bad hands (below 17) and decent ones (18-20), but no 21s. Dealer turned over an 8 for 13, drew a 3 to make 16, and then drew an 8 to bust. I won all 6 bets for $4200.
Before I even got paid, the guy next to me (another player) said, "Wow! I hope you tip the dealer big on that one!"
The dealer immediately piped up in a bitchy-sounding voice, "He SHOULD tip big, but I don't know if he will."
She got zero thanks to that comment.
If the goal is to win, then I can't suggest one should tip at table games. If the goal is to be social, then tipping works for that goal. I don't tip for table games. I stopped tipping for slot jackpots about 15 years ago after employees seemed blatantly disappointed by the size of my tip. Therefore -- no further tips. I will tip a small amount after cashing in poker tournaments, but only if it was a smooth experience.
Now I do tip valet pretty well, but I understand they are the best paid people at the non-posh casinos, so maybe I should scale that back.
I have no idea why anyone tips dealers in any table game. Unless of course they're concerned how they appear to others or the dealer....which is intimidation and is a sign of weakness. Did you go in there to help pay someone else's salary in a direct manner, or did you go in to win some money for yourself? And again, ask yourself the only important question that counts when the word "tipping" gets put into your head by the casino experience: IS ANYONE GONNA COME BY AND GIVE YOU A TIP FOR LOSING?
How people who gamble can't see this is a wonder of the world. Of course, people are funny animals. Once the intimidation factor steps in, all bets are off. Tip at any cost--lest you get stares or can't get to sleep while worrying about how you "must have looked" to other people. Weak players sicken me.
Rob is not alone. There are many professional gamblers who do not tip, especially in the poker tournament circuit. And like Rob, they aren't very popular with the dealers or with other players. The element of "not tipping" is only the "tip" of the iceberg of their personality and personal problems. Many go bust over and over again.
It seems to me that when a "professional" has to hang on to every chip it indicates they have some financial problems.
If tipping takes a player from positive to negative territory, then the player should not tip. I don't see how that is arguable, unless the player values others' perception of him as a tipper more than winning.
It seems to me that when "non-professionals" have to give away chips via tipping, it indicates they have some psychological problems.
What do you mean by "have to give away chips via tipping"? I don't tip when I lose. I tip when I win. How much I tip depends on the win and how I feel about the service I've received.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
What are the psychological problems you allege that non-professionals who tip have?
I don't know of any players who would offer a tip if it would put them from positive to negative territory. I don't know of anyone who ever suggested doing that.
First of all, why not tip when losing? What has the dealer done wrong to not merit a tip if you are losing?
Second, would you tip a machine if you won? If the dealer is automated, would you tip him/her? If not, why not? The tips would go into a general fund for the casino that would fund employee pay. So if the dealer is automated, do you tip?
I guess you could tip if you lost. I know of players who have tipped when they lost... but it wasn't much of a tip. For example, they bought into a craps game for $5,000 and they lost all but $3... so they leave it "for the boys." Technically that's a tip. I don't tip when I lose, but if at the end of the session I only have a dollar left I might throw it on the table "for the dealers."Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
I remember one day, years ago, when my son lost his entire buy in at a craps table at Caesars except for three dollar coins... this was when they had the dollar coins. And the dealers said to him "go try it in megabucks." Well, he didn't go to megabucks, but he did go to another slot machine... put in the $3... and hit for $1500.
I don't tip the machine when I win, but I tipped the cleaning lady who wiped down my machine at Caesars just before I hit a $20,000+ progressive royal. In this case the "dealer" was automated.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
But I think you are talking about the automated blackjack games. I don't play them. But I could imagine scoring some big win and then giving something to a porter or to a cocktail waitress on their next visit. In fact, I often tip a porter at the craps table who comes by and clears away ashtrays and napkins and beer bottles from my position at the table -- usually a dollar chip.
Look, it comes down to this: some people tip and some people don't. So far in this discussion I haven't said the non-tippers were wrong... but it appears the non-tippers are telling the tippers that the tippers are wrong.
To the non-tippers: continue not to tip. I don't care. But don't try to convince me that what I am doing is wrong. I was brought up to tip. I tip cab drivers, I tip servers, I tip porters, I tip valets, I tip dealers.
Winner, winner, winner!!! Most sensible post of the week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
As I said, I tip valet. I tip cabbies well as I know quite a few. I certainly tip porters, as that has been beneficial to me several times. Alan made some conjecture about the financial state of people who don't tip. I responded by making an identical conjecture about the mental state of those who do.
I think there is a big difference between professional gamblers not tipping because of financial reasons, and non-professional gamblers not tipping because of some "mental state." Please describe in particular what the mental state is that you are referring to?
I am finding it more and more difficult to take your comments here as being serious. I think you are argumentative to a fault. It appears you make an effort at being derisive.
I also avoid valet as much as possible -- and not because of the tipping.
I just hate it.
I hate people driving my car.
I hate people parking my car.
I hate the unknown amount of time I have to wait to get my car -- even if I'm Seven Stars and supposedly priority valet.
I always look for self-parking first, and then use valet only as a last resort. This includes Vegas, where valet is free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
I agree totally on valet parking!!
I think people who concern themselves about tipping have locus of control issues. They are having, to be specific, external locus of control issues. They are concerned how they appear to others. Context is driving their behavior. That was the point of my automated dealer question -- would you tip if no one was looking, including the dealer?
The fact that some people tip after winning, in fact, suggests that context is driving their behavior rather than an aspect of their personality.
By the way, Alan, your remark that professionals who don't tip have financial issues was way, way out of line. You have no basis and no reason to have said that. Poker professionals get grief all the time -- your buddies at Caesars/Harrah's instituted mandatory tipping for WSOP tourneys, which is half the reason poker players want to barf when the subject of tipping comes up. And dealers expect tips on top of the mandatory tips! It's ridiculous.
There's an oxymoron for you: mandatory tipping.
redietz, I'm not sure what you think is the mandatory tipping at the WSOP? What I heard was that a players fee amount was removed from the prize pool to pay the dealers. Some of the professionals used that "mandatory fee" as a substitute and justification not to tip.
So please quote for me what is the mandatory tip that you are talking about? And the amount?
Thanks.
The problem with that of course is that I'm not talking about pro gamblers. I'm referring to anyone who gambles in casinos. Financial issues aside, advantage players use every cent in their +EV formulas. If they tip then all they're doing is working one side against the other. In my case--and how I train anyone who comes to me--tipping after handpays, tipping cashiers, and leaving cash in those shameless hotel room envelopes, is simply a dumb move done out of intimidation and a lack of self-confidence. I teach players to be strong players, and that first and foremost your most important goal is to take home as much casino money as possible.Wasteful tipping weakens that objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Congratulations. You do what most people who never have much cash on them do, and who usually leave with little to no cash in their wallet. That's also why you and some others here so look forward to those GGWU extravaganzas. FINALLY, something that doesn't cost a fortune.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
We get it: you are one cold-hearted, penurious SOB and extremely proud of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Rob, several years ago, when I told you about how the GGWU changed the rules so that play at other TR casinos outside of Vegas were now awarded GGWU points you expressed some regret that you didn't know about the change because you also could have cashed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Why are you so sour now on the GGWU freebies? You didn't have to do anything extra to get these benefits? They don't take away from your other comps. They are simply an add-on?
You, of all people, who always tries to take the casinos for everything possible (it's you against the casinos, as we all know) should be all over this.
And since you have been playing with your card recently (since you are no longer a professional using SPS only) you must have points stored up. Why not pick up a free gas card or even some free play? What part of the word "free" do you not like?
I do tip poker dealers, but if an auto-tip has been taken out of the prize pool, I tip nothing extra.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
My rationale: If you have a guaranteed tip, then you have no incentive to serve me well. You can be horrible, and your tip will still be there. Therefore, this guarantee is all you get. If you want more, drop the guaranteed tip.
If there is no auto-tip, I do tip 3% on my cash, provided the dealers were decent and not rude to me.
I get mad when they ask me at the Rio, "Do you want to leave a tip for the tournament staff?", and don't bother to tell me that I already left one via the auto-tip. I know the truth, but I bet a lot of inexperienced players get tricked into doing this. They almost tricked me into this during my first WSOP in 2005, but I told them, "I'll think about it and get back to you later", consulted with a more experienced friend, and obviously never returned to tip.
If I recall, the "fee" was either one-half percent or one-percent which doesn't come close to the 3% which is recognized as the "standard tip" for cashing in a tournament.
The fee is 1.8%, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
But that's what they get for guaranteeing a staff tip.
If there is NOT an auto-tip, I have the discretion to leave anywhere between 0 and 3%, depending upon how the dealing and attitudes were. (I usually leave 3, provided there's not an issue.) Once there's an auto-tip, I do not want to tip above that, because I am deprived of the right to tip less than that if everything is terrible.
Same reason I don't tip above 18% at restaurants where they force me to tip 18% with a large party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
So, three questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
1. If you know the fee is 1.8% and you usually tip 3% why not leave the difference of 1.2% ??
2. By not leaving any tip, and letting the 1.8% fee remain as the only compensation, are you saying that all of the dealers gave you lousy service?
3. By not leaving any additional tip for the dealers are you punishing the dealers for the company's effort to protect their income from total non tippers?
The 1.2% is the penalty for guaranteeing themselves a tip and depriving me the ability to leave no tip if I so desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Even if this was a move to prevent dealers from losing income from non-tippers, what it actually does is force me to tip. If you ever force me to tip, that will be the maximum you ever get from me, because it violates the whole concept of tipping (giving someone non-mandatory money in exchange fro good service).
I can accept that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
But who are you penalizing? And is that what you think is the right thing to do?
Define much cash? Much cash is relative. For one $300 might be much cash, for anotherQuote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
$ 50.000 might be much cash. And as always this post is completely based on assumption. And to make things even worse, as always this post was just meant to insult Dan Druff. You're just being your usual despicable self again. Keep the good stuff coming speedo :)
I'm not against the program if you train yourself how to manipulate it to your advantage - specifically, by not running to casinos because they are offering multiple points, and even more specifically, by playing with a solid, non-alterable plan with goals that will allow you to actually win their money consistently and overall. That's what I've always done, and that's what I teach others to do. Shooting for statuses and "free" cruise offers is what people who generally lose do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
So in other words, Rob, since you don't know if anyone has been doing anything "foolish" all you've been doing is blowing a lot of hot air??Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
My post was to demonstrate what a confused and inexperienced gambler Druff appears to be. He rails on the concept of valet parking, yet he doesn't seem to understand that it is nearly 100% safe and far safer than going to & from parking areas or garages on foot. And what do people usually carry on those excursions? Yes VL, CASH! What you are right about is it only matters what the amount is to the individual. For your bonus teachable moment VL, I suggest you learn from D Druff about CET's TR program if you ever get enuf scratch together to play in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_lover
Not exactly. You post a lot, and I can tell very easily from what you say that the TR program controls you far beyond the problem gambler mark. Ditto for Druff. The two of you are toyed with and played like fiddles by CET Mgmt. Nothing either of you talk about doing is unexpected by CET.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
There you go again Rob. When backed into a corner you pull out the "problem gambler" card to play. Sorry for the gambling analogy, but it makes perfect sense.
Here's a little reality for you: you've burned down all of your other bridges and this one is now on fire.
I just want to chime in and agree with Dan Druff on the tipping issue -- I did not know "auto-tip" as the proper lingo, but I have adopted it, so thanks for that.
"Mandatory tipping" seems to me to be a blatant contradiction in terms. If casinos can't afford to pay their dealers, why stick it on the public, which is paying through the nose for hotel rooms and food during the WSOP events anyway? A big problem is that CET can't collect enough top notch dealers for their busy time, so they realize there will be problems at some tables during some events. Rather than pay dealers more, or rather than have dealers revolt because people won't tip for bad service (because there aren't enough good dealers), CET instituted the "auto-tips."
By the way, Alan, I don't buy your statement about a "standard 3% tip." Who quoted you that particular rate? CET? I have read a few poker books -- in fact I read Amarillo Slim's first book back in the 70's -- and I've read a lot of bitching about poker host casinos trying to strong arm people in sleazy fashion (similar to Dan Druff's experience) to leave these tips.
It's standard in the various tournaments I have played. If you never heard that before, that's fine. I'm not going to create a thirty page discussion over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
Edited to add: read this http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/po...f-your-dealers
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...naments-part-i
Having been on the other side for several years ( as a stickman), I was tipped very generously and maybe that is one reason I tip as a player. I was paid $1,000 per night to deal for 8 hours (and that was 20-25 years ago), and the tips were usually double or triple that--at least (split 50-50 with the house, and our 50% split 4 ways. We gave great service and ran a professional game and it was my job to control the game as the stick. I did everything I could do to get people to tip us, but I hope it was the great game we ran and the humor that I liked to inject that kept the tips rolling. I don't begrudge any of you who don't tip--that's your perogative--but the game was more fun if the dealers were happy and on your side.
A lot of words to just repeat insults. Poor boy, you must have been bullied around a lot. Keep on going at it though. Never thought credibility could fall below zero but it looks like that's going to be your next achievement. Dancer resembles Gandhi compared to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I forgot: does Rob Singer tip car valets?
That's exactly what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
The basic rule of thumb with casinos is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
If they are taking steps to thwart what you're doing, then you're doing something right.
Casinos are in the business to make money. If a gambler is engaging in behaviors making the house money, the casino will encourage him to keep coming back and doing the same thing.
However, if a gambler is doing something to cause a casino to LOSE money (aside from getting lucky at otherwise negative expectation games), they will make changes to prevent this.
CET does NOT like Seven Stars grinders. They want these customers out of the Seven Stars program, or at the very least, to pay a lot more to get there and receive a lot fewer perks when they do.
In just the past year, CET has taken four actions against Seven Stars grinders:
- Lowered value of offers
- Cut tier credit earnings by a factor of 2.5x at many of its highest-odds video poker
- Changed Seven Stars tier requirement to 150,000, making it more difficult for locals grinding low-limit machines daily to get there
- Clamped down upon "back-to-back" offer redemption
These were NOT random decisions. They came from the top, where it was (correctly) concluded that Seven Stars grinders like myself are milking a rewards system created to award huge losers. They realized that a dedicated Seven Stars grinder can actually substantially beat the system, cashing in more in freeplay and benefits than it will cost them to reach Seven Stars. This doesn't even include other real costs to Caesar's for these players, such as administrative costs and countless free hotel rooms.
Under the current system (ignoring the $25/tier VP machines), a player at 9-6 JoB has an expected loss of just $2300 with optimal play to reach Seven Stars.
Seven Stars benefits can EASILY be cashed in for FAR more than $2300, just running the freeplay alone, which was exceeding well over $1000 per month in Las Vegas, even for the lowest level Seven Stars.
So you can see how Caesar's wasn't happy with the proliferation of such grinders.
All of this is true, even at Rincon. My offers in both Vegas and at Rincon in the past year have been cut by about 50%. While Rincon has not instituted the $25/tier-point system they have eliminated nearly all of the full pay video poker games -- few remain. The increase to 150,000 tier points eliminated many 7stars potential players. My son will finish the year with 115,000 tier points. In previous years he would have been 7stars... now just diamond. And back-to-back comps have been virtually eliminated -- and there was a time when at midnight you could use successive daily free play offers and now you have to wait till 8am for the new "gaming day" to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff