Slate article about whether or not Vegas is "dead"

Here's the link without a paywall: https://archive.ph/KZDaS

The article makes some good points, and in the middle you can find an interview with John and Kristina Mehaffey, regarding the degraded odds of games. The article does note that casual gamblers seem to be too stupid to care, which is sadly true. However, it does kind of explain (though not in a direct way) that even though people don't realize they're playing worse games, they do see how quickly their money vanishes, and it's not fun for them.

There are some stupid parts of the article, such as interviews with a street "showgirl" and a "timeshare hawker", both of whom lament times being tough. The showgirl is described as "charging $60 per photo", but doesn't tell the truth that this is a hidden price, and tourists are coerced into paying that after taking a picture with them, often with threats of violence. The timeshare hawker isn't just an innocent saleswoman, but rather one who begins a process of tricking mostly lower-middle-class people into a "great investment" which is a borderline scam.

Those types of people should be at minimum evicted from the strip, and ideally in jail. We shouldn't lament their tough times with fewer suckers on the streets.

There's also the complaint about rooms being too expensive, which simply doesn't hold water. Las Vegas actually has CHEAPER rooms than most big cities, especially during the week. The room costs aren't the problem. It's everything else, especially the food prices and the horrible-odds games.

But aside from those parts, the article isn't bad. Give it a read and let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

But aside from those parts, the article isn't bad.

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It's a numerical analysis written by a liberal arts idiot.

Example:

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John told me that Vegas initially ratcheted up its minimums during the pandemic in reaction to the crunch of COVID-era gambling. Social-distancing mandates limited the number of players that could gather at casino tables, so operators made up the difference in scale—squeezing more money out of the few gamblers risking infection to play. It is less clear why those juiced wagers stuck around once the coronavirus receded, outside of the obvious: Gamblers are willing to pay them.

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"We have no idea why the minimums stayed up."

I tried but I could only get about halfway through this article.

What an awful writer. Writing things like “festooning a gauche” & “chthonic”

A guy trying to show off how smart he is by overusing fancy words that no one uses.

I did agree with the sentiment of the first half of the article though once you break through the ridiculous language, but good lord I couldn’t take it anymore.

The writer’s name is Luke Winkie, & boy does he sound like a “Luke Winkie”

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

even though people don't realize they're playing worse games

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There is still public 3:2 double deck blackjack including with DAS and S17, and you may set up a private game like that if you have enough clout. Baccarat is the same as it has always been, including for the practically 100% of people who would not know how to set it up for an advantage. Has craps changed at all? I don't play it so I would not know, but I assume it is the same as always.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

There is still public 3:2 double deck blackjack including with DAS and S17, and you may set up a private game like that if you have enough clout.

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Yeah because THAT is what we are talking about here. Private games and having enough "clout". Dan Druff specifically commented on casual gamblers and you responded with this.

Way back when I was playing Atlantic City and living in Phila, I used to take the train to AC. One day returning home on the train, there were two older women (from Baltimore based on their conversation). They were discussing how they used to win some trips, and now they NEVER had a winning trip. They specifically mentioned how their money doesn't even last as long.

These women knew nothing about the odds or that casinos had tightened up their slot machines. All they knew is their money didn't last as long and they rarely had a winning trip like they used to. Once people start to realize that and feel that way, then there in no enjoyment to them playing and they stop or make less frequent trips. It is a case of greed by casinos. They are not content to have a reasonable edge on EVERY game, they have to squeeze and drive normal recreational customers away. That leaves them with a smaller customer base that they then have to squeeze even harder. Until they squeeze themselves right out of business.

As for 3-2 public double deck blackjack on the strip. Those games are "counter-trap". They are watched closely (hawked) and any signs of card counting or hole-carding and the player is backed off or 86ed. Sometimes a player is just varying bets a bit (not with the count) and they are backed off. The ONLY players "allowed" to play those games are losing players. They don't even want players that just play a good basic strategy game (still -EV).

They might as well hang a sign saying only losing and system players allowed. Which of course is why Turtle is welcome. :rolleyes:

Las Vegas made 2 mistakes in the last 20-25 years, IMO. The first wasn't specific to Las Vegas, but occurred throughout the gambling industry. And that was to put people in charge with generic business degrees, instead of the people that KNEW the gambling business. These pencil pusher types don't understand gambling business. They cut corners and make cuts, including reduces odds, paytables, ect that may show an increase short-term, but longer-term turn off and drive away the actual gambling clientel. They are then left trying to squeeze more money out of a smaller customer base.

The second mistake is specific to Las Vegas. Someone, probably these same business school geniuses decided that Las Vegas shouldn't be what it has always been about.....GAMBLING. Instead the bulk of revenue should come from shopping and restaurants, and night clubs. These things should only exist to supplement the main industry, which was always gambling.

If people want to go shopping they can do that anywhere. If people want to go clubbing, they can do that in any major city. What made Las Vegas special, was GAMBLING!

Pretty sure the diversification into non-gaming revenue sources has been highly successful.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Pretty sure the diversification into non-gaming revenue sources has been highly successful.

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Then why are there about a million stories involving tourism decline, revenue decline, hotel occupancy declines over the last 10 years?

ANY data you look at shows decline.

And anyone that lives and plays here regularly doesn't even need to see this data to know, it ain't the way it used to be just 8-10-12 years ago.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Las Vegas made 2 mistakes in the last 20-25 years, IMO. The first wasn't specific to Las Vegas, but occurred throughout the gambling industry. And that was to put people in charge with generic business degrees, instead of the people that KNEW the gambling business. These pencil pusher types don't understand gambling business. They cut corners and make cuts, including reduces odds, paytables, ect that may show an increase short-term, but longer-term turn off and drive away the actual gambling clientel. They are then left trying to squeeze more money out of a smaller customer base.

The second mistake is specific to Las Vegas. Someone, probably these same business school geniuses decided that Las Vegas shouldn't be what it has always been about.....GAMBLING. Instead the bulk of revenue should come from shopping and restaurants, and night clubs. These things should only exist to supplement the main industry, which was always gambling.

If people want to go shopping they can do that anywhere. If people want to go clubbing, they can do that in any major city. What made Las VegasMBA special, was GAMBLING!

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What you’re describing is the same thing that happened to Boeing.

They were always run by engineers until they merged with McDonald Douglas, & as soon as the MBAs started running things, they killed the company by letting safety & quality slip.

MBAs are the nut low on late stage capitalism

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

MBAs are the nut low on late stage capitalism

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Something I find kind of interesting about it, is the more of a BS product you have the more MBAs can get away with it.

Banks, Insurance, Crypto, Stocks, etc & even gambling to a big extent since all it really is is entertainment.

But once you have a tangible real product like airplanes & when you start cutting corners they fall out of the sky it’s a whole different ball game,

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Pretty sure the diversification into non-gaming revenue sources has been highly successful.

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Then why are there about a million stories involving tourism decline, revenue decline, hotel occupancy declines over the last 10 years?

ANY data you look at shows decline.

And anyone that lives and plays here regularly doesn't even need to see this data to know, it ain't the way it used to be just 8-10-12 years ago.

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That is a recent decline from peak earnings, and is commonly attributed to excessive prices and fees.

The diversification in question began long ago. 30 years ago maybe?

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

ect

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What you’re describing is the same thing that happened to Boeing.

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The theory as I understand is that Strip resorts are suffering due to blowback from their gouging. But how do the locals operators fit in? Afaik, Boyd and Red Rock Resorts have both been tight on promos and comps since 2020, and they seem to be doing okay.

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

ect

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What you’re describing is the same thing that happened to Boeing.

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The theory as I understand is that Strip resorts are suffering due to blowback from their gouging. But how do the locals operators fit in? Afaik, Boyd and Red Rock Resorts have both been tight on promos and comps since 2020, and they seem to be doing okay.

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They can afford to be tight on their promos and comps if they are still offering the locals good games I assume.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

They can afford to be tight on their promos and comps if they are still offering the locals good games I assume.

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If we had regulation that served the public interest, holds would be disclosed individually by property. But available info does support your suggestion. Here's what I get from the latest reporting for one year through 9/30/2025. These are win %s for all slot denoms combined, nonrestricted sites only:

statewide 7.16%

Clark County (breakdown below: ) 7.47
downtown 8.29
strip 7.93
North LV 7.43
Laughlin 8.22
Boulder area 6.42
Mesquite 6.59
balance of Clark County 6.50

Washoe County (Reno/Sparks) 5.47

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

They can afford to be tight on their promos and comps if they are still offering the locals good games I assume.

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If we had regulation that served the public interest, holds would be disclosed individually by property. But available info does support your suggestion. Here's what I get from the latest reporting for one year through 9/30/2025. These are win %s for all slot denoms combined, nonrestricted sites only:

statewide 7.16%

Clark County (breakdown below: ) 7.47
downtown 8.29
strip 7.93
North LV 7.43
Laughlin 8.22
Boulder area 6.42
Mesquite 6.59
balance of Clark County 6.50

Washoe County (Reno/Sparks) 5.47

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Agreed.

These holds always look better than they are since they don’t break out video poker.

Like strip at 7.93, if it was all slots and no VP it would certainly be over 10.

Red Rock and GVR give me a hefty amount of automated freebies monthly, thousands in free play chips, thousands in resorts credits, and lots of free nights. The free nights don't mean much to me, but they have a requirement of staying at least one night to receive the free play chips and the resort credits, which tack onto the room folio.

Resorts credits may be used for merchandise and I can't tell you how many times I have gone in there to clean out every cologne, perfume or skincare they have, eventually you just run out of things you want.

Caesars and Resorts World Vegas have similar automated marketing campaigns. RW Vegas the offers are pretty stock, but Caesars you need a skilled host to pick and choose the best offers. For Caesars sometimes I just go in there with a friend and let her just pick up whatever she wants, they have some cool items also sunglasses. The also carry Creed cologne but I maxed out on that, which is why I let someone else just shop away these days, and my wife doesn't want most of the stuff they have any longer.

If you do have a room, especially if someone is staying in it, just have to make sure the merchandise is purchased first to eat up all the resorts credits, before any food and beverage, which someone like me would get comp'ed anyway.

Yes the numbers I receive are higher than most, but everyone who plays there (Station Casinos) gets something monthly.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

These holds always look better than they are since they don’t break out video poker.

Like strip at 7.93, if it was all slots and no VP it would certainly be over 10.

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Indeed. The 1-cent denom is indicated at 10.80, on the strip. Statewide 1-cent denom is 9.13.

The majority of machines nowadays are categorized as "multi" rather than any specific denomination.

I assume the "slot" data includes any machine accepting a players card, so that would also catch video table units.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

There's also the complaint about rooms being too expensive, which simply doesn't hold water. Las Vegas actually has CHEAPER rooms than most big cities, especially during the week. The room costs aren't the problem.

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Not only that, but comps and discounts are readily available for anyone willing or able to be slightly savvy.

I think resort fees have created a bad impression. They may be a smart business tactic overall, but some customers feel cheated.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

The diversification in question began long ago. 30 years ago maybe?

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I don't think it has been 30 years, because at least some of these things I am talking about have occurred since I have lived in Vegas which has been about half that long (16 years). Maybe we are talking about different things or different levels or phases.

But regardless of the exact time, these kind of decision often take years to see the total results. You might have a short-term period where the bottom line increases and then 10 years down the road you have lost most of those people.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Red Rock and GVR give me a hefty amount of automated freebies monthly, thousands in free play chips, thousands in resorts credits, and lots of free nights. The free nights don't mean much to me, but they have a requirement of staying at least one night to receive the free play chips and the resort credits, which tack onto the room folio.

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As any real advantage player that played the local places knows they began cutting almost completely eliminating offers even before covid. Lead by Boyd, but Stations followed suit. Even Alan documented how his offers went from hundreds of dollars per week for his play down to $15 per week. And it was worse for anybody that was even perceived as playing with an advantage. They have only recently begun to give out a little something reasonable again.

So If you, Turtle are claiming you got all these top comps from Stations all along, it is only further proof that you were nothing but a losing (-EV) player and not just losing player, BUT big time losing player to them. That is the only people that were getting anything from them for most of the last 6-7 years.

You, Turtle make these posts, post after post as if you get this VERY special treatment because you are a bigger player. You ONLY get the special treatment that you do because you are a bigger LOSING player.

Stations casinos is fairly sharp. YOU aren't pulling the wool over their eyes, winning the amounts you claim and then getting top tier freebies. If you are getting top teir freebies, you are losing and losing big time. BUT THAT has always been your real story. You are a pretty big LOSING gambler, who gets comped accordingly. The dishonest part has been all the claims of winning on top. That is just fantasy, Turtle and every single person knows it!

I "worked" stations casinos at the prime of their "offer period", prior to covid, prior to my partners death in 2018. For machine play, including VP which we were playing big you could get separate mailers and offers from separate Station "groups of casinos". You would get a mailer from the group of casinos that have the name "station on them (Boulder, sunset, Sante Fe, Palace and at the time Texas), You would get a separate mailer with separate offers from the 2 Fiesta casinos (now closed). You would get a 3rd mailer for play at Wild West (now closed), and the smaller Barleys, and the Wildfire locations. And you would get a 4th mailer for any table game action at the top 2 resorts GVR and Red Rock. That is 4 different mailers and if you had 3-4 accounts at each you were getting over a dozen mailers from stations alone.

I know or knew what you needed to play to get what offers, including table games where I toned down my bet spread to where it showed about a break even game, maybe slightly -EV with a little rat-holing. My +EV or advantage on that play, came from the match play and free bet table game offers at RR and GVR. And I knew what you had to do and how to play to get those offers. So don't be telling me, how you get top offers from Stations while winning millions. You are just full of shit and only telling part of the story. Only way you got the offers you claim is if you LOST big time, which we have always known you do.

Five posts in a row is quite possibly a forum record.


Btw the move toward retail, restaurants etc. as substantial profit centers seems to have been part of the plan of Bellagio from its opening in 1998.

Speaking of which... one seems to hear remarkably little about Bellagio these days. Not good nor bad, just absolutely nothing. Not making any point just something that occurred to me.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

That is a recent decline from peak earnings, and is commonly attributed to excessive prices and fees.

The diversification in question began long ago. 30 years ago maybe?

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Smurgerburger, do you live in Vegas? If not I assume you spend adequate time here. So you should have seen the commercial airing this year for Red Rock set to the Kiss song I want to rock and roll all night and party everyday. Have you seen it?

Here is the thing. Up until a year or maybe two ago, I never saw a commercial for any of the local type casinos. Not Red rock, or other Station casinos. Nor the Boyd casinos. Maybe South Point was the exception, but the local casinos didn't advertise (at least in the Vegas market). They didn't NEED to advertised. So what changed? Do you think all these advertising campaigns started because they are doing well, or do you think the advertising campaigns started because revenues keep dropping? :confused:

That's a funny argument because reportedly GVR and RR are doing well. Correct me if I am wrong.

Furthermore expanded marketing or a change of marketing strategy can actually indicate optimism. San Manuel used an enormous media campaign if I'm not mistaken after one of their expansions as part of a strategy to become pan-SoCal rather than more local to LA.

But none of this is relevant because nobody is denying that the LV strip is seeing a decline in tourism, not even disagreeing about why. (I actually am skeptical of the theory but haven't put that forward here).

I was simply pointing out that the strategy of moving away from gaming as more or less the sole source of profit has been amply vindicated. Even the currently below peak revenue is surely far greater than it was in the old days.

There is a variety of reasons as to why Vegas is on the decline and has been for at least half dozen years dating pre-covid. Some want to blame Trump for declines in tourism from Canada and Europe this year. I have refrained from mentioning that as it has gone on much longer than the last 10 months.

Covid was a factor. Vegas and casinos never fully bounced back to pre-covid.

Casino in every state now is a factor, although going to a local casino in someplace like Pennsylvania is NOT like going to Vegas.

More and more "fees" on top of expenses are a factor. People are so sick of all these hidden or added fees and price gouging.

All the things done to increase house advantage, 6:5 blackjack, double zero, now triple zero, (did I hear of 4 zero) roulette. Lower pay tables on VP. Lower payout on slots.

And I go back to Vegas moving away from gambling and more into general tourism type things.

They are all factors. And again, I blame at least some of it on casinos moving to pencil pushers running things rather than they good old boys that understand the casino business.

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Maybe I am "old school" acctinQ, but Vegas is NOT Disneyworld or any other touristy location like that. And I think it was a mistake to try to be. Las Vegas is LAS VEGAS, a gambling destination. The premier gambling destination in the United States, (the world at one time). Why did they move away from that towards shopping and shit like that? :confused:

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Bellagio

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Whether you hear or read about it or not, the place is constantly packed.

Day and night, even mid week.

https://i.imgur.com/VvZtY9tl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jKDxGe3l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5XjVX9Rl.jpg

Right now people can't even get to the fountain due to the F1 paddocks except at the end across from Caesars, and yet they still come.

This is of course that "empty Strip" UNKewlJ writes about (without actually stepping foot in it) from his homeless abode around the corner of E Bonanza Rd and N Las Vegas Blvd.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Maybe I am "old school" acctinQ, but Vegas is NOT Disneyworld or any other touristy location like that. And I think it was a mistake to try to be. Las Vegas is LAS VEGAS, a gambling destination. The premier gambling destination in the United States, (the world at one time). Why did they move away from that towards shopping and shit like that? :confused:

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Uhh because there are better gambling destinations all over the US? Because people like to spend money and not just gamble it away?

I know - movies make old LV seem cool and when I went there at age 24 or whatever for the first time I thought it was sooo cool .. but now I go to casinos within a few hours drive and they're much, much better.

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

This is of course that "empty Strip" UNKewlJ writes about (without actually stepping foot in it) from his homeless abode around the corner of E Bonanza Rd and N Las Vegas Blvd.

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Nobody is saying Vegas or the strip is empty asshole. The discussion is about the decline from 7-8 years ago (pre-covid) and a good discussion on different reasons why.

My whole game right now is playing during busier times, in the shadow of bigger bettors. I couldn't do that if the strip was empty. But it is less crowded (even during busier times) than it used to be. If I was trying to do what I now do, how I now play, 8-10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to or would have a much harder time maneuvering around and would make less money with greater aggravation. So I am not entirely displeased at the decline. I have made it work for me.

We (most of us) are just having a discussion about the decline and possible reasons for it. Of course, you Turtle want to turn everything about you and your silly little fairytale.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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I idolize the gangster days of Vegas? :confused: Where dude? Link to anything I have said idolizing gangsters or the gangster days. :cool:

If anything I idolize the post gangster Las Vegas. 90s, 2000's when the gangsters were gone and corporation ran things, but actual casino people were still in charge. :rolleyes:

Admittedly, I probably see things through a different lense than you. In my time living here, and my half dozen trips prior to moving here, Never or very rarely (maybe when I had friends visit) have I been interested in the touristy things.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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I idolize the gangster days of Vegas? :confused: Where dude? Link to anything I have said idolizing gangsters or the gangster days. :cool:

If anything I idolize the post gangster Las Vegas. 90s, 2000's when the gangsters were gone and corporation ran things, but actual casino people were still in charge. :rolleyes:

Admittedly, I probably see things through a different lense than you. In my time living here, and my half dozen trips prior to moving here, Never or very rarely (maybe when I had friends visit) have I been interested in the touristy things.

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WTF is so great about a place that only has gambling and cheap food? If not for the romanticizing of the gangster bullshit - what is there?

Downtown LV hasn't changed that much. There are no shopping or shows for the most part. I guess plaza has a showroom and probably Circa? I dunno but that stuff is still there.

I'm not even sure why you think gambling is not a "touristy" thing? I guess you just want to present yourself as some hardened no nonsense gambler on this forum. lol whatever.

I don't totally disagree about the shows and shopping but I'm happy to have the shows option. Why would I ever go to LV just to gamble? I can stay in my geographic area. Having different choices available is a good thing.

My issue is the nickel and diming. Losing thousands one night and not being able to find a place to sit for hours because the tables are for multiple people as is the bar.

Casinos used to make 80% or 90% of their revenue from gaming. It was actually the Mirage that changed the model. Only about 40% of their revenue came from gaming. Back then Steve Wynn was saying they will come for the party.

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

There's also the complaint about rooms being too expensive, which simply doesn't hold water. Las Vegas actually has CHEAPER rooms than most big cities, especially during the week. The room costs aren't the problem.

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Not only that, but comps and discounts are readily available for anyone willing or able to be slightly savvy.

I think resort fees have created a bad impression. They may be a smart business tactic overall, but some customers feel cheated.

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They were never a smart business tactic, and I've tracked them in their various incarnations over the past 20 years.

Here was the progression (and I'm talking about nationally, not just in Vegas):

2005ish: Resort fees appear at various properties which can loosely call themselves resorts, but have not appeared in Vegas yet. They're usually around $7, and you can opt out of them if you fight hard enough. They were initially put in place to get a little extra money without raising advertised prices and without paying travel agents more commission. They were also passed along to Priceline customers who bid a flat rate, which was especially shitty.

2008ish: Resort fees had somewhat increased, and also hotels smartened up to list them in the fine print, thus making opting out much harder. Previously, the savvy traveler could claim they were never disclosed, and not be legally required to pay them.

2010ish: Resort fees come to Vegas and many other big city properties, mostly as a way to be listed cheaper in online hotel price search engines.

2012ish: Caesars tries a campaign where they brag about no resort fees. It backfires badly. While they gained some positive PR, all of their properties were showing way below their competition when sorted by price on search engines, due to them having to disclose the rates.

2013ish: Caesars puts the resort fees back.

2014-2025: Resort fees keep increasing and are in most hotels nowadays. Vegas resort fees are over $50 per night, and other cities they tend to range between $20 and $50. Even a semi-recent law requiring them to be disclosed up front in price quotes didn't stop them. They're just disclosed earlier.


Anyway, I just estimated those dates above, hence the "ish". I don't feel like going and looking them up.

The point is that they were always hated by travelers, and now are cited as one of the big reasons people hate Vegas. It's somewhat unfair, as resort fees are everywhere now, but they're seen as a symptom of the nickel-and-dime culture of the strip nowadays.

I deleted about 20 messages by kewlJ and MDawg.

If this shitposting continues, I will ban both of you from the thread.

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I deleted about 20 messages by kewlJ and MDawg.

If this shitposting continues, I will ban both of you from the thread.

---

If Druff had 2 kids and one stabbed the other one in the eye he'd say "Now kids, you better both start behaving or I'll take the knife away."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

---

Several years ago there was a bill introduced in Congress (or maybe just talk of a bill) that would eliminate hidden fees like resort fees and all the hidden fees that airlines use and force hotels and airlines to have one price that they advertise.

What happened to that bill? It disappeared. Probably congress changed hands and the side more friendly to big business took over. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

This sounds like the Vegas I fell in love with. late 1990's (although that was before I ever got to Vegas) and early/mid 2000's. Not the Mob run Vegas of the 80's , but the Vegas controlled by corporations but run by legit casino people that knew what they were doing. Before they turned things over to the Business school geniuses.

House edges should be small. 3-2 blackjack (less than 1% house edge), single or maybe double zero roulette, VP paying 99%, slots upper 90%. The kind of advantage where if a recreational (non-AP) player comes to town for a couple days and plays 8-10 hours they still have a decent chance to win maybe 3 out of 10 trips.

But the casinos couldn't have that. They want all the gambler's money in 2 hours and the recreational gambler almost never winning for a trip. They only saw the short-term of that. Never looked at what that would mean long-term as far as declining customer base.

THAT is the story of the business school rejects taking control.

Really, when you think about it, an advantage player like me and the casino model are not all that different. Just the advantage flips sides. As an (card counter) AP, I could go in guns blazing playing bigger limits, win more money over a shorter time at the expense of long-term winning, which there wouldn't be any because I wouldn't be allowed to play. OR I can figure out what limits that I can play, and be welcome back to play over and over guaranteeing long-term profits. (longevity)

Casinos have the same choice. For some inexplicable reason the business school idiots chose brief short-term increase in profits over longevity.

A perfect analogy is blackjack. 3-2 blackjack has a house advantage of about .5% depending on number of decks and exact rules. But that is if a player knows and is playing near perfect basic strategy which most players are not. So when you add in all the goofy ways players play (standing on 14 vs 9 because they dôn't want to break), the overall house advantage has to be well over 1%.
But that wasn't good enough for the pencil pushers. So they say if we go to 6-5 blackjack we can increase the house edge by 3 fold.

What they never considered is all the players that would refuse to play 6:5. Increase your profit a little bit, but lose half your customers is NOT a good business decision. And these same kinds of decisions have happened over and over and over on the casino floors over the last 20 years by people looking and thinking short-term instead of considering long-term results and effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

... resort fees are everywhere now,...

---

This surprised me: I rarely travel and stay in motels (other than my go-to tribal casino, Chinook Winds) and didn't realize the "infection" had spread.

Curious, I checked to see whether Chinook Winds, a tribal casino on the Oregon coast, charged a resort fee...they do indeed.

But unlike sin city the fee is negligible: were I to book a room for tonight the resort fee would be only $1.79.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

You should put your money where your keystroke is and go revitalize the Boulder strip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

You should put your money where your keystroke is and go revitalize the Boulder strip.

---

The Boulder strip? What is the boulder strip? Sam's Town, AZ Charlies and Boulder Station? East Cannery is gone. Are you including Longhorn?

These places have nothing to do with tourism. They are small-time local places for degenerates and drug addicts.

Or are you just trying to be humorous?

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

In Vegas, it used to be that if your room was comped you didn't pay resort fee. is that still the case or did they find a work around that?

Prior to moving to Vegas I made half dozen trips or so. It was early in my career, so I was still building BR and looking for cheap accommodations. And that was back in the days of really cheap Vegas rooms. So you would go to one of the hotel type sites and see the cheaper places like Strat, Circus Circus, Hooters, maybe Imperial Palace, listed for $19-$29 for a weeknight. (mon-thur). Then you go to the actual property and try to book and the price would come out to $45 with resort and other fees. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

The difference is of course that I am actually here, playing, and winning.

So the Vegas of today, and yesterday, work just fine for someone who has learned how to take advantage of all angles.

I prefer this sort of thing
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post967325
to the two story suites of the Spa Tower at the Nugget anyway, which was the best Weinberg could come up with back then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

---

South Point and Club Fortune are the two places I've been backed off in my life betting $60 or less. Club Fortune was $40 and they sent security....South Point I was really just trying to pass 10 minutes for the buffet to open and got $50 pushed out of the circle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

---

South Point and Club Fortune are the two places I've been backed off in my life betting $60 or less. Club Fortune was $40 and they sent security....South Point I was really just trying to pass 10 minutes for the buffet to open and got $50 pushed out of the circle.

---

I survived for a while at Club Fortune. Several months playing blackjack I think. My partner and I played Vp there for much longer. I think the reason I was able to survive longer playing blackjack is because I would play on Mondays when they had a +EV promo. I forget exactly what it was but something like a suited blackjack paid an extra 10-1. This allowed me to tone down my spread and extract some of my EV from the promotion which bought some longevity.

My backoff there was kind of funny as well. I sat down to play one day and the pit said "weren't you told you can't play BJ"?" I said no I wasn't. And the next day I received a phone call from the general manager telling me I could not play blackjack. He introduced himself and was polite and almost friendly. It was the only backoff I ever got by phone. And of course a back off at that place was basically an 86ing for blackjack. tables were only open 8 hours a day, and there was no going in on other shifts like I do after some of my backoffs.

Now South Point is a lot like El Cortez and for good reason. Same mentality. But there is something about both properties that few people know. They back people off more playing red than they do people playing the same spread green to light black. Makes no sense, but it is fact. I played for years at both places spreading green to light black. I got a little lucky at El Cortez in that there was a pit guy from jersey that took a liking to me. He was very tolerant of me. there was also a pit guy that hated me, but luckily he retired.

At BOTH locations I have seen someone at a table I was playing backed off when I wasn't. The other person was spreading red, I was spreading green to light black. About the same spreads. On one occasion, the person was seated right next to me. I though the backoff was directed at me for a second, until I realized.

Anyway, I think this reminiscing is kind of hijacking Druff's thread which is supposed to be about the decline of the strip. Just out of curiosity Dan Druff, if you are reading, do you ever play any off strip places like the stations or Boyds, or even smaller? Like a lot of tourist, I only see you write about the strip as if nothing exists outside the strip. I realize you are a poker guy and that is mainly on the strip (and Rio).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MDawg

The difference is of course that I am actually here, playing, and winning.

So the Vegas of today, and yesterday, work just fine for someone who has learned how to take advantage of all angles.

I prefer this sort of thing
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post967325
to the two story suites of the Spa Tower at the Nugget anyway, which was the best Weinberg could come up with back then.

---

Ah yes, you claim to be living The Life of Riley.

Who the hell was Riley, anyway?

And Kilroy: how did he get to so many places in WWII?

Mysteries without clues, just like your gambling tales...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

In Vegas, it used to be that if your room was comped you didn't pay resort fee. is that still the case or did they find a work around that?

Prior to moving to Vegas I made half dozen trips or so. It was early in my career, so I was still building BR and looking for cheap accommodations. And that was back in the days of really cheap Vegas rooms. So you would go to one of the hotel type sites and see the cheaper places like Strat, Circus Circus, Hooters, maybe Imperial Palace, listed for $19-$29 for a weeknight. (mon-thur). Then you go to the actual property and try to book and the price would come out to $45 with resort and other fees. :D

---

It depends on your card level. With CZR there is no resort fee or parking charge with a Diamond Card or higher.

With MGM Rewards there's no parking fee with their 2nd level card and no resort fee with the 3rd level card. I think it takes a 100K wager on slots to get to the 3rd level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Best post in the thread.

Everything else---if you know what you're doing and have REALLY played in all on & off Strip casinos around LV, you dont need to be schooled on what the casinos are doing wrong or need to be doing right to get gamblers back, and you most certainly don't need a local low-level lowlife to be lecturing anybody about his concocted history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

I agree about themes. I remember Luxor first time I visited Vegas. It was cool as fuck.

Some are kinda dopey though but meh. People with real money don't necessarily care that much about places all being upscale. Like.. ornate columns or whatever are neat but not necessarily what is going to have you come back a second time.

The casino in New Orleans had the coolest theme. Visited a couple of years ago and I coulld barely find any semblance of what i remembered. It was like one area of the ceiling hadn't quite been remodeled. Before that it was this jester/gothic thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

This sounds like the Vegas I fell in love with. late 1990's (although that was before I ever got to Vegas) and early/mid 2000's. Not the Mob run Vegas of the 80's , but the Vegas controlled by corporations but run by legit casino people that knew what they were doing. Before they turned things over to the Business school geniuses.

House edges should be small. 3-2 blackjack (less than 1% house edge), single or maybe double zero roulette, VP paying 99%, slots upper 90%. The kind of advantage where if a recreational (non-AP) player comes to town for a couple days and plays 8-10 hours they still have a decent chance to win maybe 3 out of 10 trips.

But the casinos couldn't have that. They want all the gambler's money in 2 hours and the recreational gambler almost never winning for a trip. They only saw the short-term of that. Never looked at what that would mean long-term as far as declining customer base.

THAT is the story of the business school rejects taking control.

---

Because if they were rejected from business school they slummed it working for casinos...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Really, when you think about it, an advantage player like me and the casino model are not all that different. Just the advantage flips sides. As an (card counter) AP, I could go in guns blazing playing bigger limits, win more money over a shorter time at the expense of long-term winning, which there wouldn't be any because I wouldn't be allowed to play. OR I can figure out what limits that I can play, and be welcome back to play over and over guaranteeing long-term profits. (longevity)

Casinos have the same choice. For some inexplicable reason the business school idiots chose brief short-term increase in profits over longevity.

A perfect analogy is blackjack. 3-2 blackjack has a house advantage of about .5% depending on number of decks and exact rules. But that is if a player knows and is playing near perfect basic strategy which most players are not. So when you add in all the goofy ways players play (standing on 14 vs 9 because they dôn't want to break), the overall house advantage has to be well over 1%.
But that wasn't good enough for the pencil pushers. So they say if we go to 6-5 blackjack we can increase the house edge by 3 fold.

What they never considered is all the players that would refuse to play 6:5. Increase your profit a little bit, but lose half your customers is NOT a good business decision. And these same kinds of decisions have happened over and over and over on the casino floors over the last 20 years by people looking and thinking short-term instead of considering long-term results and effect.

---

Man you do some real mental gymnastics to legitimize yourself as a gambler.

Now you could just be the casino!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

It isn't that he is a pedant it is that he has to try so hard to show everyone he's a real legit LV expertized AP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by accountinquestion

It isn't that he is a pedant it is that he has to try so hard to show everyone he's a real legit LV expertized AP.

---

Perhaps if most of the posters didn't give him shit about it then it wouldn't be an issue.

Sure, he's sensitive and thin-skinned, that's why he's so easy to troll.

But he pretty much is what he says he is.

KJ has been mugged at gunpoint, punched, and arm-broken while living dangerously in the casinos of LV. And all this while nursing a perilous heart condition and seeing his boyfriend tragically lost to AIDS*.

He is a true veteran. A battle-scarred survivor. And he has many green chips to bear witness to this.


*(anyone ever check the timeline on that btw? Feels like it's been essentially cured for a while now.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smurgerburger

KJ has been mugged at gunpoint, punched, and arm-broken while living dangerously in the casinos of LV. And all this while nursing a perilous heart condition and seeing his boyfriend tragically lost to AIDS*.

He is a true veteran. A battle-scarred survivor. And he has many green chips to bear witness to this.


*(anyone ever check the timeline on that btw? Feels like it's been essentially cured for a while now.)

---

Some of you people are really sick dudes!

My partner died of an aneurism. He no more had aids that you do smurgerburger. Shame on you.

And yes, after 16 years as a card counter AP in Las Vegas, I have some war stories. What I do, card counting has me dealing and engaging daily with casino personnel in the card counter cat and mouse "battles". Or at least it was that was for the first 12 years or so. Not really daily anymore. But yeah, I have my battle scars and war stories.

People have given me shit about everything I know about card counting. "Oh he plagiarized it" Dumbest comment ever. :rolleyes:

People have given me shit saying no one can count cards in Las Vegas for 16 years. I have shared some of how I have done that. techniques I have used to minimize heat and play within tolerated levels. BUT minimize doesn't mean without incident. I have been backed off I estimate 80 times. Maybe even 100. I share some of that and people scream about that too.

Look, I know some of you people don't want to believe I am what I am and do what I claim and have for 16 years in Vegas (21 years overall). Your bias and hate is about something that isn't even gambling related, as evident smurgerburgers post. Get the fuck over it!

Tbf I thought AIDS was in fact the story you were going with, but that may have been Rob being naughty.

Otherwise the demerits of your story are of course well-trod ground not worth revisiting.

I'll tell you something else too. I don't think I often brag. I know some of you take things I say as bragging, when it really isn't. It is just a 20 year AP sharing some experiences. But I am going to say, I am probably one of the best card counters that lived and played Vegas in the last 20 years. (sorry Zenking, but I have been at it longer than you). If there is/was someone even as good as me with as much longevity, I would know because I run into the Vegas based card counters regularly. And there is only 1 or 2, I have seen that have been at it as long as me, playing the levels I play. The one I would be really interested to know more about is an Asian lady I have run into probably 7-8 times.

I have a right to share my experiences. To share what I want about what I do in a very specialized area of advantage play (which in itself is a specialized way of making a living). I am sorry if that agitates some of you.

This forum is a bunch of sick dudes refusing to accept what is staring them in the face because of some weird bias about someone. Again, get over it and grow the fuck up.

Uh huh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

I'll tell you something else too. I don't think I often brag. I know some of you take things I say as bragging, when it really isn't. It is just a 20 year AP sharing some experiences. But I am going to say, I am probably one of the best card counters that lived and played Vegas in the last 20 years. (sorry Zenking, but I have been at it longer than you). If there is/was someone even as good as me with as much longevity, I would know because I run into the Vegas based card counters regularly. And there is only 1 or 2, I have seen that have been at it as long as me, playing the levels I play. The one I would be really interested to know more about is an Asian lady I have run into probably 7-8 times.

I have a right to share my experiences. To share what I want about what I do in a very specialized area of advantage play (which in itself is a specialized way of making a living). I am sorry if that agitates some of you.

This forum is a bunch of sick dudes refusing to accept what is staring them in the face because of some weird bias about someone. Again, get over it and grow the fuck up.

---

You're mostly BS kew and you dont like that you aren't fooling anyone, so you do what any ADHD-inflicted loser in life does: keep wasting your time trying to convince everyone else of your worth.

From all your AP reading you had to have run across the chapters and posts that address why true and successful AP's do not spend the better part of their social life arguing with people online and blatantly lying & making up stories while getting caught in the process....then trying to wiggle out of the humiliation of it all with the pathetic "I did it to PROTECT myself" baloney. And they certainly don't mess around with the gay "I like to share my experiences" or "hey guys! wait'll you hear THIS one--it'll knock your socks off and REALLY convince you's that I'm the real deal!"

You are the joke.

(Fake baby bro is too).

REAL APs write BOOKS that make up stories to HIDE they are an AP !!!!!


Hahahahahahhahaha
Ooooohh banahahahaahhaha
Hahahahhaha
<rolls around on the floor some more>
Hahahahhahaa

It’s a pity AccountInQuestion’s post was deleted because he crystallized exactly who and what UNKewlJ is (and also clearly what he is not, too). It was VCT at its finest for getting down to its core.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterV

In order to get the Wizard to think he saw what the hound wanted him to see when the Wiz monitored his gambling play

---

There was no "blazing up", magic tricks, nor puppetry needed. Wizard was very clear about what he saw that day. He saw a guy play bacarát for about 45 minutes and win a small amount of money. Absolutely NOTHING remarkable about that. It happened every hour of every day at every casino. Just like you will see people win short-term at roulette, and blackjack (playing without an advantage) and every other casino game.

Wizard also stated in no uncertain terms that he saw nothing, absolutely nothing that would indicate any kind of long-term winning or advantage. Mike wasn't "allowed" to keep that conclusion up, as it apparently violated a gag order he inexplicably signed, but for about an hour, he was crystal clear as to what he saw. And it wasn't what Mdawg has turned it into for the last 7 years.

Now just imagine if Mike had stated something like I saw Mdawg play for 45 minutes and he won a small amount, which satisfied the free roll wager he was involved in, and I (Wizard) can say Mdawg is doing something very unique at an advantage that would explain all his claims of winning. I mean WOW, that would have been a feather in Dawgs collar and would have ended everything and prevented everything that has occurred for 7 years.

But, Wizard actually said the opposite, which is why Dawg did everything in his power to not allow Mike to say what he saw.

And by the way, it wasn't a mistake that Mike revealed what he did for about an hour before Dawg threatened his to take it down. Mike felt so strongly about it that he intentionally violated the agreement for as long as he dared.

There is plenty of criticizing for Mike agreeing not to say what he was in the first place (he was duped), But he did as much as he could to actually reveal what he saw and has told numerous people privately.

Dawg is NOT controlling Wizard like a puppet. He is simply paying Mike and showering him with gifts. I suppose you can make an argument that is an advatage play (+EV) on Mike's part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

REAL APs write BOOKS that make up stories to HIDE they are an AP !!!!!


Hahahahahahhahaha
Ooooohh banahahahaahhaha
Hahahahhaha
<rolls around on the floor some more>
Hahahahhahaa

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If you could splain that you might not be perceived as just another old man without a family....bbbbut you have a, wait for it, a "GIRLFRIEND"! Hahahahahahahaha:)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

He is simply paying Mike and showering him with gifts.

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Is this just your theory, or is it a substantiated (or unsubstantiated) accusation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

In order to get the Wizard to think he saw what the hound wanted him to see when the Wiz monitored his gambling play

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There was no "blazing up", magic tricks, nor puppetry needed. Wizard was very clear about what he saw that day. He saw a guy play bacarát for about 45 minutes and win a small amount of money. Absolutely NOTHING remarkable about that. It happened every hour of every day at every casino. Just like you will see people win short-term at roulette, and blackjack (playing without an advantage) and every other casino game.

Wizard also stated in no uncertain terms that he saw nothing, absolutely nothing that would indicate any kind of long-term winning or advantage. Mike wasn't "allowed" to keep that conclusion up, as it apparently violated a gag order he inexplicably signed, but for about an hour, he was crystal clear as to what he saw. And it wasn't what Mdawg has turned it into for the last 7 years.

Now just imagine if Mike had stated something like I saw Mdawg play for 45 minutes and he won a small amount, which satisfied the free roll wager he was involved in, and I (Wizard) can say Mdawg is doing something very unique at an advantage that would explain all his claims of winning. I mean WOW, that would have been a feather in Dawgs collar and would have ended everything and prevented everything that has occurred for 7 years.

But, Wizard actually said the opposite, which is why Dawg did everything in his power to not allow Mike to say what he saw.

And by the way, it wasn't a mistake that Mike revealed what he did for about an hour before Dawg threatened his to take it down. Mike felt so strongly about it that he intentionally violated the agreement for as long as he dared.

There is plenty of criticizing for Mike agreeing not to say what he was in the first place (he was duped), But he did as much as he could to actually reveal what he saw and has told numerous people privately.

Dawg is NOT controlling Wizard like a puppet. He is simply paying Mike and showering him with gifts. I suppose you can make an argument that is an advatage play (+EV) on Mike's part.

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It's easy to tell when you're lying kew--it takes you too many words to try and get your concocted point across. A liar who's just never sure enough he's convincing anyone of anything, so he keeps on going until he hits his saturation point. . That's you.

I talked to wizard, actually several times. Your version of events when mdawg didn't chicken out of meeting up with anybody, like you, is quite different than what really happened. Is this any different than basically ANY of your stories?

There is this perception that I am jealous of and go to war with winning gamblers. NOTHING is further from the truth. I LOVE winning players! That is players doing something to play with an advantage and win long-term. I have never gone to war with any real AP that is doing something where the math works. Not Axelwolf, NOT mickeycrimm, NOT Zenking. Nor any other real AP using real math. I am not jealous of any real player. I am thrilled for them legitimately beating the casinos.

About the closest was Moses, because Moses claimed he was making a living playing blackjack in Reno and it wasn't the math that didn't work, it was the ability to get money down for any length of period that could result in that "making a living" at that particular location. And in the end, he admitted he made about 100k over 10 years. (10k a year). If he had said that at the start, we would have never had a problem and I could have even made some suggestions on how he could improve longevity....although Reno...I don't know if you really can increase longevity very long.

The people I go to war with are people that the math doesn't work or of late with this dawg person, making statements like the casinos don't care and allow him to win. You know.....bullsht claims. :rolleyes:

If someone makes claims that the math works and is the way the casinos and casino industry works, I will never say a word, even if I don't believe them or think they are severely exaggerating. Case in Point: Seedvalue.

So that is all. Have your claims work, mathematically and the way the casino industry operates. is that really too much to ask?

I don't want someone claiming a 5% advantage from card counting like the guy at Norm's forum. I don't want someone claiming they are rainman and can win as much as they want and the casinos don't care. I don't want someone claiming they make massive amounts in reno or Wendover or some place that you can't make millions. And I don't want anything Rob Singer. That is all made up.

Have your story work! That is all I ask. And if you have to start out by having a gambling math expert sign an agreement to not say what he saw.....your story doesn't work. :cool:

Another thing I will admit is that I am a little biased favorably towards "professional" advantage players. That would be people that make a living off their advantage play. There is no rule that advantage play has to be professional. (make your living from it). And it is ok, people that have some other income and do some sort of APing part-time.

BUT guys that do it full-time, make a living from it have gone through something others haven't. There is always a period, usually earlier in your career, when you go through a losing period, and we don't have the luxury of taking a break, and just going to our day job, when we build up some more BR ect. We HAVE to fight through and come out the other side. Can't really explain it, but if you are not "all in" playing for a living, it is something you never have to go through and going through that, and that is part of what makes a "professional" player.

I am sorry, but guys that go to work 5 days a week, while doing some part-time advantage plays and call themselves advantage players are kind of "posers" in my book. :rolleyes: Shades of a weekend "cowboy".

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am sorry, but guys that go to work 5 days a week, while doing some part-time advantage plays and call themselves advantage players are kind of "posers" in my book. :rolleyes:

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Really?

On the one hand you admit / concede in your hypothetical that they are in fact "doing some part-time advantage plays," then in your next breath you call them "posers."

Riddle me this: if they are already successfully pulling off advantage plays, as you concede, what exactly are they "posing" as?

Gambling gods?

Cocktail waitresses?

What?

Look, these guys are doing gamblng the RIGHT way: they have a real job to pay the bills and gamblie for shits and giggles, but with an edge.

THAT's how to do it: get rid of the variance that full time AP necessitates; have health insurance, a 401-K and the financial security of a regular income to let you easily ride through losing streaks.

Which is not to denigrate full time, successful AP's: that path is for but the few.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

On the one hand you admit / concede in your hypothetical that they are in fact "doing some part-time advantage plays," then in your next breath you call them "posers."

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What's this, did somebody finally wise up?

After all these years, Mr V has suddenly experienced an epiphany.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am sorry, but guys that go to work 5 days a week, while doing some part-time advantage plays and call themselves advantage players are kind of "posers" in my book. :rolleyes:

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Really?

On the one hand you admit / concede in your hypothetical that they are in fact "doing some part-time advantage plays," then in your next breath you call them "posers."

Riddle me this: if they are already successfully pulling off advantage plays, as you concede, what exactly are they "posing" as?

Gambling gods?

Cocktail waitresses?

What?

Look, these guys are doing gamblng the RIGHT way: they have a real job to pay the bills and gamblie for shits and giggles, but with an edge.

THAT's how to do it: get rid of the variance that full time AP necessitates; have health insurance, a 401-K and the financial security of a regular income to let you easily ride through losing streaks.

Which is not to denigrate full time AP's: that path is for but the few.

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MrV, I am sorry if you feel I have slighted you. There is nothing wrong with part-time AP. And you don't ever try to pretend or present yourself as anything other than a part-time player. But there are some that do. And if you are going to work 5 days a week and talk like you are some great advantage player beating the casinos, well...there is something missing. That is just my opinion. I look a little differently at people that have really gone through it.

You have made it when you can deal with that variance involved and still pay your bills. Still make a living. It is something that you and others have always given Zenking shit about, but he has done it. It is a member of an exclusive club...players that make a living off casino play. That is all.

Probably makes me a little AP snobbish, but I am just being honest. I look a little differently at the group of APs that make a living especially for a number of years off casinos and their AP play vs weekend warrior type APs. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I don't expect any other real professional type APs to come to my defense. I am just telling you how I feel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coach belly

What's this, did somebody finally wise up?

After all these years, Mr V has suddenly experienced an epiphany.

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Chill out, coach.

Unlike most of the posters here I am not ATTACKING KJ, I am simply DISAGREEING with him and asking him to explain his thinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

There is nothing wrong with part-time AP... And if you are going to work 5 days a week and talk like you are some great advantage player beating the casinos, well...there is something missing.

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Ah, there's the rub: in your mind a part time, successful AP shouldn't brag about beating the casinos...even though they do?

Does not compute.

AP is AP, whether full time or part time: isn't it"

If not, why not?

Why shouldn't a part time AP be permitted to truthfully brag about having an edge and beating the house?

FWIW I am NOT an AP, I'm just chasing negative expectation games with a pocket full of both cash and hope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

There is nothing wrong with part-time AP... And if you are going to work 5 days a week and talk like you are some great advantage player beating the casinos, well...there is something missing.

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Ah, there's the rub: in your mind a part time, successful AP shouldn't brag about beating the casinos...even though they do?

Does not compute.

AP is AP, whether full time or part time: isn't it"

If not, why not?

Why shouldn't a part time AP be permitted to truthfully brag about having an edge and beating the house?

FWIW I am NOT an AP, I'm just chasing negative expectation games with a pocket full of both cash and hope.

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We are not on the same page here V. Part-time APs are absolutely allowed to share experiences including bragging if they want. As I have said many times I even enjoy reading trip reports and accounts from pure recreational (-EV gamblers).

I am just saying that to me, there is something a little different between a fulltime AP that makes a living for years from his AP play and weekend warrior type APs, that come Monday morning go back to a computer programming job. Are both APs? sure (if they are playing with an advantage). But there is something different about them. One has sort of skipped a step in the AP journey of being "all in", and everything that comes with that.

ummm....BTW, same with a player, AP or not playing with Daddy's money. :cool:

Let me state it this way. Every real professional "all-in" AP has gone through a period where we put our money on the table, and when we lose, we come back the next day and put our money on the table again, and when we lose we come back the next day and put our money on the table yet again (That is called variance BTW) and we have to trust in the math and know that eventually we will win, or we don't pay our rent or eat next week. Deep down THAT is what being a fulltime AP or gambler is.

Now the weekend warrior, the consequences for him are that come Monday morning when he heads back to his computer job is maybe he doesn't have money for his starbucks coffee that week until Friday (payday) rolls around. :D

And while for most of us those days are long in the rear-view mirror (if they aren't you are doing something wrong), it is still embedded in us and part of what a real "professional" AP making a living off casinos and play is about.

I guess I just get a little tired of some of the attacks from these Weekend warrior types that don't know what it is to be a real professional player making a living off casinos and your play.

Notice how many words and posts it takes for kew to justify his lying.

MrV is correct: an AP is an AP, whether full time or part time. Kew doesn't like it because it doesn't fit his concoction nor his lies. And just like REAL full time and part time AP's, none of them either brag about what and how they're doing what they do, and they have no need to discuss their "experiences" online like kew is addicted to doing as a result of his fairytale.

Go back kew and re-read how Dan has undressed your BS in front of everybody. And he didn't need an MS in computer sciences to do it.