Quick Note for Todd

The way to determine the cost of using full pay strategy on Ugly Ducks is to:

1. go to the software (Frugal Video Poker)
2. Pull up the Ugly Ducks
3. Go to strategy chart
4. Replace the Ugly Duck strategy with full pay strategy
5. Then click Analyze

The Ugly Ducks return is 98.91%. But using full pay strategy cuts it to 97.2%.

The reason for the big difference is the flush value. On full pay it’s 2 for 1 but on Ugly Ducks it’s 3 for 1. This radically changes the values of flush cards especially when mixed in with the deuces. On one game the 4-flush is worth more than a pair, on the other game the pair is worth more than the 4-flush. There are many more examples.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The way to determine the cost of using full pay strategy on Ugly Ducks is to:

1. go to the software (Frugal Video Poker)
2. Pull up the Ugly Ducks
3. Go to strategy chart
4. Replace the Ugly Duck strategy with full pay strategy
5. Then click Analyze

The Ugly Ducks return is 98.91%. But using full pay strategy cuts it to 97.2%.

The reason for the big difference is the flush value. On full pay it’s 2 for 1 but on Ugly Ducks it’s 3 for 1. This radically changes the values of flush cards especially when mixed in with the deuces. On one game the 4-flush is worth more than a pair, on the other game the pair is worth more than the 4-flush. There are many more examples.

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He literally doubled the house's edge and arrogantly dismisses it?

let the APs stick with gambling. When the choice is pick'a'side - regardless of the game it is a lot easier to beat.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The Ugly Ducks return is 98.91%. But using full pay strategy cuts it to 97.2%.

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I'd like to see a second opinion on that.

I would try it myself, but the Frugal VP software makes no sense to me.

Best I can do is test Ugly Ducks using 10/7 DB strategy.

I simmed 100k hands and got 62.66% return:



Could not catch a royal.

That's a painful loss rate, but maybe not a bad choice if your priority is low volatility:

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

I'd like to see a second opinion on that.

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Ok sure. In FVP, select Ugly Ducks or create it if it doesn't exist. Use the Tweak Strategy Chart option to import FPDW for use on Ugly ducks. Using a 5 coin FPDW strat on Ugly Ducks I get an RTP of 98.02% versus 98.91%:



P.S. How is Sweden still standing when they didn't follow Dietzian lockdown and vaccination protocols ?

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Using a 5 coin FPDW strat on Ugly Ducks I get an RTP of 98.02% versus 98.91%:

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Thanks! That did it for me.



I was looking in the wrong place for the ANALYZE. Incidentally, Wiz got 98.06% (https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...rong-strategy/).

And here's the calc for Ugly Ducks using DB strat :eek::

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

I'd like to see a second opinion on that.

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Ok sure. In FVP, select Ugly Ducks or create it if it doesn't exist. Use the Tweak Strategy Chart option to import FPDW for use on Ugly ducks. Using a 5 coin FPDW strat on Ugly Ducks I get an RTP of 98.02% versus 98.91%:



P.S. How is Sweden still standing when they didn't follow Dietzian lockdown and vaccination protocols ?

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I must have misplaced a hand

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

I'd like to see a second opinion on that.

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Ok sure. In FVP, select Ugly Ducks or create it if it doesn't exist. Use the Tweak Strategy Chart option to import FPDW for use on Ugly ducks. Using a 5 coin FPDW strat on Ugly Ducks I get an RTP of 98.02% versus 98.91%:



P.S. How is Sweden still standing when they didn't follow Dietzian lockdown and vaccination protocols ?

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I must have misplaced a hand

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Well, you did the most important thing Mickey - you conveyed the very correct point that you lose a lot of EV if you use FPDW's strategy on Ugly Ducks. Almost a percentage point deduction is huge.

As an aside, if you didn't already know, you can have the FVP software substitute an entire strategy chart (swap out the Ugly Ducks strategy chart and replace it with FPDW's strategy chart and, of course then run it against the Ugly Ducks paytable) rather than deleting a strategy line of the chart or moving a strategy line to a higher or lower rank in the chart (which of course is a very valuable feature as well) .

As powerful as FVP is, what's amazing is that Wolf Video Poker is even stronger still - significantly so. Too bad Jim made the software protection such that if your hard drive crashes, you lose access to the unlocked software since the software activation page is long gone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

As powerful as FVP is, what's amazing is that Wolf Video Poker is even stronger still - significantly so.

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Has anyone here tried the premium membership at videopoker dot com? It seems positioned as an alternative to the defunct Video Poker for Winners software, but with severely reduced features. It basically just looks like practice play capability with error correction. No strategy charts, no simulations.

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

As powerful as FVP is, what's amazing is that Wolf Video Poker is even stronger still - significantly so.

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Has anyone here tried the premium membership at videopoker dot com? It seems positioned as an alternative to the defunct Video Poker for Winners software, but with severely reduced features. It basically just looks like practice play capability with error correction. No strategy charts, no simulations.

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Yes, I had the premium membership at videopoker.com a couple of years ago & you are correct.

It was just practice play with error correction or you could view correct holds prior to seeing the error correction.

You had to get the strategy chart or card somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Ok sure. In FVP, select Ugly Ducks or create it if it doesn't exist. Use the Tweak Strategy Chart option to import FPDW for use on Ugly ducks. Using a 5 coin FPDW strat on Ugly Ducks I get an RTP of 98.02% versus 98.91%:



P.S. How is Sweden still standing when they didn't follow Dietzian lockdown and vaccination protocols ?

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I must have misplaced a hand

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Well, you did the most important thing Mickey - you conveyed the very correct point that you lose a lot of EV if you use FPDW's strategy on Ugly Ducks. Almost a percentage point deduction is huge.

As an aside, if you didn't already know, you can have the FVP software substitute an entire strategy chart (swap out the Ugly Ducks strategy chart and replace it with FPDW's strategy chart and, of course then run it against the Ugly Ducks paytable) rather than deleting a strategy line of the chart or moving a strategy line to a higher or lower rank in the chart (which of course is a very valuable feature as well) .

As powerful as FVP is, what's amazing is that Wolf Video Poker is even stronger still - significantly so. Too bad Jim made the software protection such that if your hard drive crashes, you lose access to the unlocked software since the software activation page is long gone.

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Ummmm, I'm not vaccinated for Covid. Not once. Now part of that was serendipity. Part was judgement.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The way to determine the cost of using full pay strategy on Ugly Ducks is to:

1. go to the software (Frugal Video Poker)
2. Pull up the Ugly Ducks
3. Go to strategy chart
4. Replace the Ugly Duck strategy with full pay strategy
5. Then click Analyze

The Ugly Ducks return is 98.91%. But using full pay strategy cuts it to 97.2%.

The reason for the big difference is the flush value. On full pay it’s 2 for 1 but on Ugly Ducks it’s 3 for 1. This radically changes the values of flush cards especially when mixed in with the deuces. On one game the 4-flush is worth more than a pair, on the other game the pair is worth more than the 4-flush. There are many more examples.

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He literally doubled the house's edge and arrogantly dismisses it?

let the APs stick with gambling. When the choice is pick'a'side - regardless of the game it is a lot easier to beat.

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Are you guys on drugs? At no point, in no post, none, did I say I used FPDW strategy for NSUD. I dug up the strategy card I've used for the last decade (from LVA), and it's an NSUD strategy card. So, to put it clearly, mickey was bullshitting you guys when he said the deuces wild strategy cards from LVA were all FPDW strategy cards.

Why he would write that, I have zero idea. As I said in a previous post, it makes no sense. Why would LVA sell strategy cards for a game that barely exists and not sell cards for NSUD?

Mickey wrote something that he had to know was completely wrong, and people jumped on his idiot bandwagon.

So APs really thought the LVA was selling FPDW strategy cards and not NSUD? LOL. Who would believe something like that?

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The way to determine the cost of using full pay strategy on Ugly Ducks is to:

1. go to the software (Frugal Video Poker)
2. Pull up the Ugly Ducks
3. Go to strategy chart
4. Replace the Ugly Duck strategy with full pay strategy
5. Then click Analyze

The Ugly Ducks return is 98.91%. But using full pay strategy cuts it to 97.2%.

The reason for the big difference is the flush value. On full pay it’s 2 for 1 but on Ugly Ducks it’s 3 for 1. This radically changes the values of flush cards especially when mixed in with the deuces. On one game the 4-flush is worth more than a pair, on the other game the pair is worth more than the 4-flush. There are many more examples.

---

He literally doubled the house's edge and arrogantly dismisses it?

let the APs stick with gambling. When the choice is pick'a'side - regardless of the game it is a lot easier to beat.

---

Are you guys on drugs? At no point, in no post, none, did I say I used FPDW strategy for NSUD. I dug up the strategy card I've used for the last decade (from LVA), and it's an NSUD strategy card. So, to put it clearly, mickey was bullshitting you guys when he said the deuces wild strategy cards from LVA were all FPDW strategy cards.

Why he would write that, I have zero idea. As I said in a previous post, it makes no sense. Why would LVA sell strategy cards for a game that barely exists and not sell cards for NSUD?

Mickey wrote something that he had to know was completely wrong, and people jumped on his idiot bandwagon.

So APs really thought the LVA was selling FPDW strategy cards and not NSUD LOL. Who would believe something like that?

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Everything is timing. The NSUD cards came out later. The casinos cut the comps/cashback to nothing on the full pay machines so pros went to playing NSUD on multiplier days. They hadn’t made that switch in the 90’s.

You said you mostly played Ugly Ducks. Playing NSUD on Ugly Ducks is certainly closer but you are still giving up EV. You were playing with a big deficit.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Playing NSUD on Ugly Ducks is certainly closer but you are still giving up EV.

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Ignoring penalty cards, the only difference that comes to my mind is a double-gap str8 flush vs 3ofaK with one duck on board.

Frugal says:



Wizard also says 98.91 vs 98.90, with only two decimal places of precision. I think Wizard assumes perfect strategy, whereas Frugal ignores penalty cards imo.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

He literally doubled the house's edge and arrogantly dismisses it?

let the APs stick with gambling. When the choice is pick'a'side - regardless of the game it is a lot easier to beat.

---

Are you guys on drugs? At no point, in no post, none, did I say I used FPDW strategy for NSUD. I dug up the strategy card I've used for the last decade (from LVA), and it's an NSUD strategy card. So, to put it clearly, mickey was bullshitting you guys when he said the deuces wild strategy cards from LVA were all FPDW strategy cards.

Why he would write that, I have zero idea. As I said in a previous post, it makes no sense. Why would LVA sell strategy cards for a game that barely exists and not sell cards for NSUD?

Mickey wrote something that he had to know was completely wrong, and people jumped on his idiot bandwagon.

So APs really thought the LVA was selling FPDW strategy cards and not NSUD LOL. Who would believe something like that?

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Everything is timing. The NSUD cards came out later. The casinos cut the comps/cashback to nothing on the full pay machines so pros went to playing NSUD on multiplier days. They hadn’t made that switch in the 90’s.

You said you mostly played Ugly Ducks. Playing NSUD on Ugly Ducks is certainly closer but you are still giving up EV. You were playing with a big deficit.

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You asked me specifically what I played at Boyd. I said I played mostly NSUD when playing at Boyd to rack up free rooms. Why would I play NSUD (with an FPDW strategy card, no less) when FPDW was available? Nothing you have said regarding this makes an iota of sense. I've had the NSUD strategy card for at least a decade.

Would I have played NSUD at Boyd if FPDW was widely available elsewhere? Well, yes, up until the point I acquired the 12 to 24 free rooms per year, which is less than 40 hours of play. But FPDW really was not available elsewhere. So if FPDW were elsewhere with no free rooms, and NSUD was available with 12 to 24 free rooms, would I mind forfeiting the difference to acquire 12 to 24 free rooms and 12 to 15 comped meals? No, I would not mind forfeiting the difference, considering I was playing less than 40 hours annually of it. I thought all "APs" made these kinds of simple calculations. And frankly, FPDW was pretty much gone a long time ago (except maybe nickels at Palace Station?).

Here's the rule, mickey, as wild as it sounds. I used FPDW strategy for FPDW when it was available. I used NSUD strategy cards for NSUD. Very deep.

What is wrong with you? LOL.

Yeah, that's me. I used the FPDW strategy cards for NSUD because I think they look cooler than the NSUD strategy cards. Why would anyone do that?

It really is pointless to engage you, mickey, so I won't. You make no sense. If I had a heart event that affected my thinking, I would want people to tell me. All of your inaccurate junk posting to try to, what, debunk me regarding some trivial 40 hours per week of video poker play? So your plan is what, if I don't look expert at VP, if I make an error in reporting history, I'm a sham regarding everything despite decades of authenticated monitored sports handicapping results? LOL. Sorry, dude. I report reality. Why would I report 40 hours of negligible video poker play, the amounts of which are somewhat embarrassing vis-a-vis my sports betting, and deal with your posts, unless my rule is to tell the truth? Same reason Anthony Curtis reports on all the trivial gambling schticks he's executed over the years. Reporting reality.

It's disturbing how this thread was hijacked. This was to report to Todd when I was in town, partly to meet him, partly in case an in-person interview was doable.

Dr. Beck and I, after a bit of an adventure, are at the Golden Nugget. Eating at Vic and Anthony's at 8 tonight. Join the two old dudes, probably in the middle of the room, if you have nothing better to do. Discuss sports betting and the sociology of gambling.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Boyd properties. Got between 12 and 24 free nights a year. Stayed 90% of the time at either Gold Coast or Orleans. Finished roughly 5K ahead lifetime at Boyd before they restructured their comps and cut me out. Played between 40 and 60 hours a year there.

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What was the name of the video poker game you were playing?

What was the payback percentage?

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It was a 40-60 hour a year thing to do to get offers. I think for most of the incarnations of the games, the majority played was 15-9-4-4. Although there were stints of the 16-10 mixed in there as they went back-and-forth before eventually downgrading payouts.

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Ditz here you say in post 135 you mostly played the 15-9-4-4 pay scale with a little 16-10 mixed in. The 15-9-4-4 is Ugly Ducks, 98.89%. The 16-10 is NSUD, 99.73%.

So you got busted out on what a bad play it was and now you are moving the goal posts saying you were playing 16-10 the whole time. GTFO

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Originally Posted by redietz

It's disturbing how this thread was hijacked. This was to report to Todd when I was in town, partly to meet him, partly in case an in-person interview was doable.

Dr. Beck and I, after a bit of an adventure, are at the Golden Nugget. Eating at Vic and Anthony's at 8 tonight. Join the two old dudes, probably in the middle of the room, if you have nothing better to do. Discuss sports betting and the sociology of gambling.

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I’d rather discuss bad video poker play.

Lol redietz dancing around. Nailed by Crimm again. Obsfucating bullshit with more bullshit never works on a forum like this.

One wonders which he knows less about? Modern sports betting or APing?

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Originally Posted by redietz

It's disturbing how this thread was hijacked. This was to report to Todd when I was in town, partly to meet him, partly in case an in-person interview was doable.

Dr. Beck and I, after a bit of an adventure, are at the Golden Nugget. Eating at Vic and Anthony's at 8 tonight. Join the two old dudes, probably in the middle of the room, if you have nothing better to do. Discuss sports betting and the sociology of gambling.

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Was it though? Would it not be more ordinary to use the PM function to contact a forum administrator?