Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

And now I have a question for you unowme. Have you at any time posted on this site under an different handle? I find it very odd that you joined yesterday, for just this discussion. If you are better known under a different handle, is there a reason, you don't want to post these opinions under that handle?
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I tried to respond yesterday, but apparently newbies are limited to 5 posts per day. I can honestly say that I have never posted here under any other name and I signed up here just to post my thoughts on this thread. I've known this forum existed for many years as Alan used to post on LVA as MoneyLA and linked occasionally to his Best Buys. Those were the days.

I have long had an interest in this case and really felt that the criminal case would end up exactly as it did. Although you may think it immoral or cheating, no crime was actually committed. It's the responsibility of a gaming machine manufacturer to make sure their machines work properly and it's the responsibility of the Casino to not pay out on machine malfunctions or design flaws. The only responsibility the VP Player has is to put his money in the machine, push the buttons any way the machine allows and wear deodorant.

Legally and Morally, I believe the VP play is no different than Hole Carding a table game or exploiting a biased wheel. In all three cases you're enriching yourself by taking advantage of a flawed game. And just like when you get paid on a losing hand by mistake, the casino can take their money back, but they can't charge you with theft.

There's a big difference between taking advantage of a gaming machine flaw you discover and a plundering an ATM in a Financial Institution. There's a big difference between playing a game on the casino floor and hacking computers to steal money. At least legally.

From a moral standpoint...everyone has a different moral compass based on their upbringing and life experiences. Some folks will draw the line at whether or not it's legal. Some folks will say "it's perfectly ok and it's up to the casino to deploy games that don't give away free money." Some will say "it's just plain wrong". I'm kind of in the camp that if it is truly legal I would do it. I would run it by a knowledgable attorney and find out what risks I was taking first. Morally, I'd think that "maybe it's not right to take all this free money from the casino", but it wouldn't bother me too much or for too long.

Another point about this play. The first time you see it work you are completely flabbergasted. You WANT to just keep trying it but you have to stop and think about what just happened before you proceed. I had no idea if it was a one time thing, if it would repeatedly work (I expected it would), if it would work on other machines within the casino, or if it were something I could exploit everywhere (even outside Nv., which I never did during those 5+ years). You just don't know at first.

I was playing on a 25c thru $5 machine, staring at my small quarter winner that I pushed up to the five dollar level, and after I gathered myself I wouldn't do this again until I hit a winner big enough so that it would trigger a handpay at $5 if indeed it would work again. On ddbp any quad would do that, and I hit one 30 minutes later. Bingo--here comes a tax form for $1250. I got up and left for home.

But after spending the 4-1/2 hour drive home doing nothing but thinking about what just happened, as soon as I walked in the house I took a quick shower, told my wife I had to go back to Nv. (Laughlin this time because it's closer) because of "something important" and I was off. I was anxious to see if this worked on the $1/$2/$5 machines at the what is now the Tropicana in Laughlin (formerly Ramada Express). Every game on those had the same pay table on all 3 levels so they were perfect. The only thing I had to do was ask an attendant to turn the DU option on, which was easy.

Not long after I got four 3's with an Ace on ddbp. $800. But this machine also worked, and I got another W2G, this time for $4k. I went straight home formulating my goals and plan. Within a week I was off and running with this.

If anyone finds this on a machine or machines today, it'll be a different story. There's history that'll make it a safer play, but that may be the only machine you find that can be exploited in this manner. If you play it too much and beat the crap out of it, they'll take it out.

Please explain what you mean by "safer play"?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by pahrump pete

Please explain what you mean by "safer play"?

Thanks.

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Because charges were dropped and Nv. didn't pursue them for anything afterwards. If someone were to get caught doing this today, they might get cuffed and thrown in jail for a short time because the current employee base may not know a thing about any of this, but as soon as the info starts rolling in from the DA's office or a knowledgeable attorney is contacted, they'd be out and at home putting on their deodorant.

Oh sure, ok. Say, I wonder if behind the scenes after this came out some casinos went ahead and tightened up some policy house rules concerning players and what passes as legit behavior with the machines.

Regardless, my heart would have been pounding during this play.

I think the guy to the left and right of me would have been huge concerns. Some players always seem to see (and say) "nice hit" before it registers in my own head.

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Originally Posted by pahrump pete

Oh sure, ok. Say, I wonder if behind the scenes after this came out some casinos went ahead and tightened up some policy house rules concerning players and what passes as legit behavior with the machines.

Regardless, my heart would have been pounding during this play.

I think the guy to the left and right of me would have been huge concerns. Some players always seem to see (and say) "nice hit" before it registers in my own head.

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Casinos don't make the law. Obviously they're going to 86 you for something like this.

I think when Nestor thought it through he objected to getting only half the cash but being on the hook for taxes for twice that amount.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I think when Nestor thought it through he objected to getting only half the cash but being on the hook for taxes for twice that amount.

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I imagine Kane would have been happy with half of the net after taxes. I would say Nestor was just ungrateful for the opportunity and screwed Kane. This is why it is so hard to perform equitable partnerships in AP.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I think when Nestor thought it through he objected to getting only half the cash but being on the hook for taxes for twice that amount.

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I imagine Kane would have been happy with half of the net after taxes. I would say Nestor was just ungrateful for the opportunity and screwed Kane. This is why it is so hard to perform equitable partnerships in AP.

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It seems so pointlessly greedy to tax your partner when you have such a valuable play. Just stay out of each others hair while you make as much money as you can.

Not to mention that it doubles the legal risk for Kane because if Nestor gets prosecuted first Kane is going to be his (allegedly) criminal coconspirator for taking a share of Nestor's profits.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I think when Nestor thought it through he objected to getting only half the cash but being on the hook for taxes for twice that amount.

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I imagine Kane would have been happy with half of the net after taxes. I would say Nestor was just ungrateful for the opportunity and screwed Kane. This is why it is so hard to perform equitable partnerships in AP.

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I don't get it. Wouldn't the most equitable thing have been for each to go their separate ways after they got this thing into gear? Why would Kane want to be paid anything by Nestor, and why would Nestor agree to pay him anything?

Kane chose to run his mouth off about the play to Nestor, and we're told Nestor "figured out" double up was the key? That was the easiest part, and a caveman could have figured it out after they played it a few times. The key is the bill feeder working before the hand is really over. Then there's this taxes issue. Why involve something like that when they expected the big money to just keep rolling in?

If anything, these guys are a classic study in not understanding human stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Another point about this play. The first time you see it work you are completely flabbergasted. You WANT to just keep trying it but you have to stop and think about what just happened before you proceed. I had no idea if it was a one time thing, if it would repeatedly work (I expected it would), if it would work on other machines within the casino, or if it were something I could exploit everywhere (even outside Nv., which I never did during those 5+ years). You just don't know at first.

I was playing on a 25c thru $5 machine, staring at my small quarter winner that I pushed up to the five dollar level, and after I gathered myself I wouldn't do this again until I hit a winner big enough so that it would trigger a handpay at $5 if indeed it would work again. On ddbp any quad would do that, and I hit one 30 minutes later. Bingo--here comes a tax form for $1250. I got up and left for home.

But after spending the 4-1/2 hour drive home doing nothing but thinking about what just happened, as soon as I walked in the house I took a quick shower, told my wife I had to go back to Nv. (Laughlin this time because it's closer) because of "something important" and I was off. I was anxious to see if this worked on the $1/$2/$5 machines at the what is now the Tropicana in Laughlin (formerly Ramada Express). Every game on those had the same pay table on all 3 levels so they were perfect. The only thing I had to do was ask an attendant to turn the DU option on, which was easy.

Not long after I got four 3's with an Ace on ddbp. $800. But this machine also worked, and I got another W2G, this time for $4k. I went straight home formulating my goals and plan. Within a week I was off and running with this.

If anyone finds this on a machine or machines today, it'll be a different story. There's history that'll make it a safer play, but that may be the only machine you find that can be exploited in this manner. If you play it too much and beat the crap out of it, they'll take it out.

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Frankly, Rob Singer, I do not believe your story that you found and were able to exploit a huge flaw for the extended time frame of 5 plus years. Just for discussions sake that all you said is true I would like too know your thought process as to why you only used your discovery when it would generate a hand pay tax form? In my mind that is when there is going to be recording reviews of winning hands especially the higher up the denomination payout goes that is when the reviews will happen. Sounds absurd to say the least on your part. Here the eye upstairs is watching you for the first time suddenly inserting cash into the bill feed "for the first time in 45 minutes" AFTER hitting a big hand. Someone would have noticed early on what this bozo just discovered. Sorry, Rob, your story doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I think when Nestor thought it through he objected to getting only half the cash but being on the hook for taxes for twice that amount.

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I imagine Kane would have been happy with half of the net after taxes. I would say Nestor was just ungrateful for the opportunity and screwed Kane. This is why it is so hard to perform equitable partnerships in AP.

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I don't get it. Wouldn't the most equitable thing have been for each to go their separate ways after they got this thing into gear? Why would Kane want to be paid anything by Nestor, and why would Nestor agree to pay him anything?

Kane chose to run his mouth off about the play to Nestor, and we're told Nestor "figured out" double up was the key? That was the easiest part, and a caveman could have figured it out after they played it a few times. The key is the bill feeder working before the hand is really over. Then there's this taxes issue. Why involve something like that when they expected the big money to just keep rolling in?

If anything, these guys are a classic study in not understanding human stupidity.

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I just read the wired article again for about the 10th time. When people read it, they need to understand the framework behind it. It looks like only Nestor and Kane’s lawyer were interviewed for it. Kane never gave his side. Nestor tried to paint himself as a sympathetic figure, but his story doesn’t add up.

Nestor said he agreed to give half his winnings to Kane when Kane contacted him with this play. At that time, Nestor was living In Pennsylvania getting a $1,000 a month welfare check. He was basically a big loser in life. What 40 yr old able bodied man is living off welfare? Compared to what Nestor was making by being on the government dole, Kane’s offer probably sounded pretty good.

Here is where Nestor is wrong. He said if he paid Kane half his winnings, he wouldn’t be able to pay his tax bill at the end of the year since he would be paying him more than his taxes. Wrong! The top income tax bracket is 37% so even if Nestor had kept his word, he’d still have had plenty of money to pay his taxes. He was still making much more than $1,000 a month, even after paying his tax bill.

As far as Nestor figuring out double up, I don’t believe him. As Ron has pointed out, this is the easiest part to figure out. When you read the article, it sounds like this is the first thing they should have figured out. Since Kane figures out all the other parts of this play (probably with help from the slot machine he had in his house and the technicians that serviced it), I’m sure he also figured out double up activated it.

As far as Kane losing $500,000 in 2006 by playing this machine, I don’t believe that part of the story. Kane’s lawyer made this claim. Why did he come up with this amount? Conviently, this is the amount Kane won from his play. I expect it’s his lawyers way of saying Kane just won back the money he has lost previously. This way if the case went to trial, the jury would be more sympathetic to Kane. Bottom line is Kane got to keep his winnings and the prosecutor dropped all charges. But I still don’t believe the claim that Kane lost half a million dollars in one year playing video picker. He lived in a nice house but he wasn’t that wealthy, and he was semi-intelligent. He came up with this play after all. Obviously, he wasn’t very smart in how he exploited it or for briging in his idoit sleazyball friend Nestor into this play.

As far as Nestor, it appears he got to keep a good chunk of his winnings, even though he won’t admit it. It makes no sense that he would have given 100% of his winnings to his friend, who Nestor claims gave it to the Feds to avoid prosecution. If his friend had hired a lawyer, the lawyer would have told him to not do this. I wish this article had interviewed Nestor’s friend to see if this part was true, and get his side.

It’s pretty clear Nestor is lying through out this whole article, trying to make himself look good. He claims the federal government is still after $238,000 (or something like that) for back taxes. Money he says he doesn’t have. This indicates to me that he has the money, but doesn’t want to play the government, just like he reneged on his deal with Kane.

It’s interesting that this play was out there for 7 years (since 2003) but nobody exploited it (at least not that we know) but these two jokers. Ron, it sounds like you found it almost the year the bug came out since you say you exploited it for 6 years, until these two clowns burned it down. I need to go back and read some of your posts to understand how you found it almost the year it came out.

First thing:

Just so we can put the theft baby to bed once and for all, Nestor was brought up on over 600 total charges in PA, including theft, and all were dropped:

https://archive.triblive.com/news/ho...r-500000-plus/

I don’t know why definitive statements are being made as to Nestor, all we have is speculation and what he told Wired.Im talking about why Kane brought him in.

With the 50% thing, the possibility does occur to me that Kane may have eventually intended for Nestor to hit all of the jackpots, thereby creating a layer of separation. This would make 50% make sense and also potentially give Kane time to cut and run if the shit hit the fan. Assuming Nestor was not somehow instrumental in figuring out how it worked, which is possible but I disagree with making any definitive statements, it would make sense to bring Nestor in for this reason.

Either way, you guys talking taxes also seem to be ignoring PA state income taxes, unless Nestor were to relocate.

Anyway, if this were actually Kane’s plan, Nestor is kind of making Kane look better by not saying so.

Again, this is speculative and I’m not saying I actually think this, just that I see it as a possibility.

Mission, most of my comments are speculation too. I felt the writer did a sloppy job writing this article. He could have done more investigative journalism to confirm or refute some of Nestor’s stories. For example, he could have easily gone to the court records to see if Nestor’s friend gave the money to the government. If the government confiscates someone’s money , it’s public record.

Btw, this is what the writer did with Kane. He checked the court records and saw there were no records of Kane giving the money back. Why didn’t he do this with Nestor and Nestor’s friend?

It’s just hard for me to believe Nestor gave half million dollars to his friend. Why would he do this? If he didn’t trust Kane, why would he trust this guy with a half million dollars.

That’s why I have a hard time believing most of Nestor’s story. It just doesn’t add up.

As far as the 50% he owed Kane, I would think Kane would understand taxes have to be paid on this amount so he’d only have taken 50% after taxes. At any rate, these two sure didn’t have things spelled out when they entered into this agreement. And once Nestor saw how easy it was, I’m sure he thought why am I giving Kane all this money.

All in all, a very interesting story. It shows what greed does to people.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Another point about this play. The first time you see it work you are completely flabbergasted. You WANT to just keep trying it but you have to stop and think about what just happened before you proceed. I had no idea if it was a one time thing, if it would repeatedly work (I expected it would), if it would work on other machines within the casino, or if it were something I could exploit everywhere (even outside Nv., which I never did during those 5+ years). You just don't know at first.

I was playing on a 25c thru $5 machine, staring at my small quarter winner that I pushed up to the five dollar level, and after I gathered myself I wouldn't do this again until I hit a winner big enough so that it would trigger a handpay at $5 if indeed it would work again. On ddbp any quad would do that, and I hit one 30 minutes later. Bingo--here comes a tax form for $1250. I got up and left for home.

But after spending the 4-1/2 hour drive home doing nothing but thinking about what just happened, as soon as I walked in the house I took a quick shower, told my wife I had to go back to Nv. (Laughlin this time because it's closer) because of "something important" and I was off. I was anxious to see if this worked on the $1/$2/$5 machines at the what is now the Tropicana in Laughlin (formerly Ramada Express). Every game on those had the same pay table on all 3 levels so they were perfect. The only thing I had to do was ask an attendant to turn the DU option on, which was easy.

Not long after I got four 3's with an Ace on ddbp. $800. But this machine also worked, and I got another W2G, this time for $4k. I went straight home formulating my goals and plan. Within a week I was off and running with this.

If anyone finds this on a machine or machines today, it'll be a different story. There's history that'll make it a safer play, but that may be the only machine you find that can be exploited in this manner. If you play it too much and beat the crap out of it, they'll take it out.

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Frankly, Rob Singer, I do not believe your story that you found and were able to exploit a huge flaw for the extended time frame of 5 plus years. Just for discussions sake that all you said is true I would like too know your thought process as to why you only used your discovery when it would generate a hand pay tax form? In my mind that is when there is going to be recording reviews of winning hands especially the higher up the denomination payout goes that is when the reviews will happen. Sounds absurd to say the least on your part. Here the eye upstairs is watching you for the first time suddenly inserting cash into the bill feed "for the first time in 45 minutes" AFTER hitting a big hand. Someone would have noticed early on what this bozo just discovered. Sorry, Rob, your story doesn't make any sense.

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I was leaning towards ignoring you again because you're just an inexperienced hater with a bias who throws things out hoping something will stick, but you did ask a question which when answered might help others understand as well.

The first thing people like you would need to know is that finding this and executing this play in an actual casino setting, where you have no idea what might happen to you at any time, completely alters your world in a way only YOU can understand. It is not anything like a years-later discussion amongst people who had no skin in the game back then.

There is never an "eye-in-the-sky review" of a vp taxable win unless there is a valid reason for it, such as at the Silverton the day Kane got arrested for hitting too many jackpots including the exact same hand twice in an unusually short period of time. And if you don't understand or want to believe that fact, just look at how these guys hit jackpot after jackpot after jackpot on their own winners and on other people's winners, again and again at one of the more paranoid casinos of the bunch--Wynn, and they NEVER got any of the heat you think generates on higher limit hits. And in my case, I never hit more than one of these winners a month at any one casino anywhere in NV. That's how you save your ass and that's how you save the play.

So you still think hitting a single taxable and leaving is stupid when you're expecting the play will go on for a long time? I had a losing win/loss statement at every major casino in Nv. for those years except for Venetian because I never used a slot card on any W2G win, and I purposely lost a little bit everywhere with some hi level play after winning. I set a modest avg. weekly win goal that kept me from the greed trap which in case you don't know, wrecks good plans everyday. It also allowed me to take weeks off here and there for family time and vacationing.

You seem to be in the camp that says they'd avoid the W2G's as much as possible, and simply make the play on all or many of the little winners. Think about that for a moment, as I did when this started, believe me. You're sitting at a machine, making a hundred or more (or maybe less, but it would get addictive for just about every gambler) of these odd moves in an hour, and all you're doing is putting yourself at an exponentially higher risk as the clock ticks. Even if you move around it doesn't matter. But if you do it ONCE A MONTH at any one casino hitting a taxable, casinos know people get lucky and win. They don't care unless you're sitting there killing them. Sure you could likely get away with just winning a few hundred here, switching casinos a dozen times a day and making a full time job out of it. But again, the more you do this the higher your chance of getting spotted is, even if by accident or by another gawking customer who knows his or her stuff. In my case, I did not want to stay long in Nv. each week.

It's all about a person's discipline and intelligence level Bo. And it's all about being able to put the right plan together that works for YOU. I've always been a very structured and disciplined person, which really made this opportunity a match for me. I don't believe very many people could do this. I believe axel could--thats why I wanted to talk to him first. And now I believe mickey could, although I'd expect he'd find a way to go about it that nobody's talked about yet. And of course there are others. But all I know is my approach served me well, and there was never a hint of heat. The "heat" was all in my mind.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

The first thing people like you would need to know is that finding this and executing this play in an actual casino setting, where you have no idea what might happen to you at any time, completely alters your world in a way only YOU can understand. It is not anything like a years-later discussion amongst people who had no skin in the game back then.

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You ought to write a book about it. I bet Anthony Curtis would publish it.

Any of you suckers buying another one of Rob's tall tales here, I've got a nice bridge over some prime swamp land on Pluto for sale for you! Wise up!!

Rob Singer wrote:

The first thing people like you would need to know is that finding this and executing this play in an actual casino setting, where you have no idea what might happen to you at any time, completely alters your world in a way only YOU can understand. It is not anything like a years-later discussion amongst people who had no skin in the game back then.


At least there is no mistaking on your part Rob that you were aware you were engaged in criminal activity. Of course, if you actually did partake in the endeavor itself.


There is never an "eye-in-the-sky review" of a vp taxable win unless there is a valid reason for it,


That is a strong assumption on your part that there is never an exception to the rules.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

There is never an "eye-in-the-sky review" of a vp taxable win unless there is a valid reason for it,


That is a strong assumption on your part that there is never an exception to the rules.

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Yeah. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the EITS verifies every hand pay jackpot.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Rob Singer wrote:

The first thing people like you would need to know is that finding this and executing this play in an actual casino setting, where you have no idea what might happen to you at any time, completely alters your world in a way only YOU can understand. It is not anything like a years-later discussion amongst people who had no skin in the game back then.


At least there is no mistaking on your part Rob that you were aware you were engaged in criminal activity. Of course, if you actually did partake in the endeavor itself.

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Maybe he was convinced that it was perfectly legal but was concerned that Casino Security and even Metro would not agree with that assessment and he'd have to pay a lot in legal fees to clear his good name. Assuming of course, that he actually did partake in the endeavor itself and actually did have a good name.