The WoV Thread

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am going to be petty here (can't help it) and take a shot at failed AP & AP traitor Eliot Jacobson, posting as teliot at WoV.

Eliot is selling 50 packs of used playing cards (current bid $6). Really Eliot? Things THAT bad? Apparently Eliot has failed at not only the art of advantage play but his second career of working the dark side as a gaming protection consultant based on his so called expertise from being a failed AP. :confused:

But good health to you Eliot, you traitor. May you live a long life in the misery of your betrayal.

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He has a few outs.
He posted that he had a FIDE rating of around 2100+
He can either sandbag in tournaments or hustle some speed chess games.

I like how Teliot said this in his post...
"hence the additional 4 decks at no extra charge"

It is bad enough the great and mighty AxelWolf has to sell gift cards on Forums but selling used Casino Decks!?
That is pretty low even for Teliot.
These are the same type of people who quibble over paying a few dollars more because they ate less pizza at the group meeting.

I’m thinking the alleged #2 AP at WOV Dark-ass is just as broke as Mike Shank was before he put the tin cup out for donations. This phony story he created was in order to justify the reason he now is broke.

They (ap’s) get tired of keeping up with all the bullshit they spewed over the years, along with the risk of stumbling over it forgetting for sure what they said in the past. Eventually, most if not all of these alleged self-proclaimed forum AP’s will be exposed, or just disappear.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

I’m thinking the alleged #2 AP at WOV Dark-ass is just as broke as Mike Shank was before he put the tin cup out for donations. This phony story he created was in order to justify the reason he now is broke.

They (ap’s) get tired of keeping up with all the bullshit they spewed over the years, along with the risk of stumbling over it forgetting for sure what they said in the past. Eventually, most if not all of these alleged self-proclaimed forum AP’s will be exposed, or just disappear.

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Doesn’t everyone disappear eventually?

But for once I’m kind of with you on Ozzy, but probably for different reasons. I’ve never met him and have no proof either way, only hunches. But he has told stories that are based in truth and some of the stuff he revealed about the Sands Bus scam of a few years ago was known to few. But the stuff about being the “Most feared” was hype and exaggerated. And putting the public stuff out there makes no sense at all to anyone, pro or con.

The recent Must Hit post he put out there was a pure negative play that happened to work out...that time. But is a money loser 99% of the time the way he played it. Reminded me of how WoN would post big hits on UX that were negative plays, but he used stories about rebates and such making it positive, which most saw through.

Is he broke? Who knows? I just dont see the point of the entire story, it makes no sense in any way.

And since it’s obvious you don’t believe any AP claims, did you ever comment on what you think of Singer’s VP claims over the years? Obviously impossible to anyone who looked at them from a math standpoint, what days BH?

I believe many AP stories, especially the ones that are confirmed in print from the casinos themselves. I also believe Mickey and others can chase down two bit plays.

I never got into the math nor had any reason to try and figure out any machine's long term EV, especially combining it with dated promotions using assorted different cards running all over the place. My casino visits were always for first class entertainment which included gambling. No different than taking a vacation in the tropics. I only found out about AP'ing after joining the forums a few years ago. Yes, I lost a lot of money gambling over the years, but I certainly have no reasons to look back today. Back then it was just part of the cost. The rare times we go these days is usually for poker tournaments for me, and my wife blows the bucks now playing slots with her friends. She signed many W-2's.

If Singers math don't make sense to you, I wouldn't know any different. What he says sounds reasonable. A lot more reasonable than card counting BJ in Las Vegas not being detected withdrawing over a million dollars for 15 years and counting.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

I believe many AP stories, especially the ones that are confirmed in print from the casinos themselves. I also believe Mickey and others can chase down two bit plays.

I never got into the math nor had any reason to try and figure out any machine's long term EV, especially combining it with dated promotions using assorted different cards running all over the place. My casino visits were always for first class entertainment which included gambling. No different than taking a vacation in the tropics. I only found out about AP'ing after joining the forums a few years ago. Yes, I lost a lot of money gambling over the years, but I certainly have no reasons to look back today. Back then it was just part of the cost. The rare times we go these days is usually for poker tournaments for me, and my wife blows the bucks now playing slots with her friends. She signed many W-2's.

If Singers math don't make sense to you, I wouldn't know any different. What he says sounds reasonable. A lot more reasonable than card counting BJ in Las Vegas not being detected withdrawing over a million dollars for 15 years and counting.

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Crybabyhole: "Waaaaa!! Waaaaa! I'm a loser! Waaaa! Waaaa! Waaaa!!! I'm a loser! Waaa! Waaaa!!! Waaaa!!!!"

Now, now Crybabyhole. Don't cry so much over being a LOSER. You are in good company. Lots of suckers like you out there. If Rob's marty sounds reasonable to you then why don't you give it a try? But please don't come back here crying about it when you get your ass kicked.

I guess I offended Mickey with this comment: "I also believe Mickey and others can chase down two bit plays."

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Originally Posted by The Boz

For anyone blasting BBB, remember she is doing a thankless job for no compensation as far as we know.

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No compensation huh?
Really?
Getting connected with APs from WoV and being a friend to the Wizard has no Advantages?
That isn't AP?

Just myself alone gave her a free dinner and a free room for a few days.
Approximately a $120 tip included from my pocket. ($800 bottle of wine and $300 dinner)
I also provided any comped food for her trip that she wanted along with sodas, cigarettes and other supplies.
I would say that being a moderator or a member at WoV can and does gain compensation.
Moderators will gain more so because of the sheer influx of interactions.
If one employs the PM system they will find it very beneficial.
I don't like PMing people in private.
I like to discuss topics in public but I know for a fact it will gain members Compensation

Did she sign up for this thankless job or was she forced to take it on?
Can she quit this thankless job any time she wants to?
At WoV they like to say that the door is right over there.
You can use it anytime you like.

She has been doing this job for a long time and if she doesn't like the backlash can she exit out the door like Mission146 did?
To be fair I always liked Mission146 no matter how much shit I gave him.
I was always willing to give him free compensation out here in Vegas but we could never agree because I am not very agreeable :)
The truth is that I am an asshole but I give away free stuff all the time on a daily basis.
The ones who can put up with me being an asshole benefit a great deal because I don't care about materials.
I am not the guy who argues over paying for pizza because I didn't eat any pizza.
I am the guy who shows up with 20 pizzas for everyone free of charge.

Hey I see Mikey (shack) is back in town after a 3 day absence. Any bets on where he was? :confused: Given his geeky nature, my money is he went somewhere (probably southern Cal) to get a better view of that Full-Blood-Wolf Moon thingy that occurred last night. ;)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Hey I see Mikey (shack) is back in town after a 3 day absence. Any bets on where he was? :confused: Given his geeky nature, my money is he went somewhere (probably southern Cal) to get a better view of that Full-Blood-Wolf Moon thingy that occurred last night. ;)

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It's an easy guess as to where his wife and kids were. At home.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Hey I see Mikey (shack) is back in town after a 3 day absence. Any bets on where he was? :confused: Given his geeky nature, my money is he went somewhere (probably southern Cal) to get a better view of that Full-Blood-Wolf Moon thingy that occurred last night. ;)

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He does like to chase those Eclipses.
I took a gander at it for a few moments last night on my back patio.
Pretty clear night and even though the city lights dimmed it somewhat I still got a decent look at it.
One of those happened around 2008 or so and I was driving to Reno late at night.
I got a really good look at it in the middle of nowhere.
Not much of a big deal to me though.
Seen one seen them all.
Pretty much goes the same as a solar eclipse or viewing a comet.

I was just glad to see him post that he condones using multiple player cards.
That he admits that he has paid people to pick up his free play.
That it is all part of the cat and mouse game and normal in the gaming industry.

I started reading the WoV Thread:
Discussion II about the Suspension List.

Since I signed up to WoV months afterwards I never paid it any attention.
The truth is even when I was a part of WoV I never paid it much attention.
I may have posted in it a few times but didn't think anything of it.
I didn't realize how serious the site was about policy and policing it.
I signed up and posted about the Skyline Double Royal Promotion.
After that I didn't post for 4 to 6 months or so.
I took part in the Plaza Tax Promotion but didn't know they were posting about it.
Having a war about it actually.
I have always been too busy in the Casinos and didn't know about the Gambling Forum World(s).
Later I read it and think I commented about it as well.
Funny thing is that the D and the Golden Gate had the same Tax Day Promo the year prior.
Usual suspects were involved at that one as well.
Not the point though.

My point is I read the first 20 pages of this Second Suspension Thread.
It got really heated about kewlJ and Qfit.
Outright war between certain members.
So far it seemed the whole WoV board was on the side of kewlJ.
Even though the Wizard admitted he handled it poorly it did not matter.
The decision was made and was Final.
Amazing how the Mob could not thwart the Dictator.
Years later we over here are still discussing the issue.
Kind of a Fun read actually from my POV since I am not on the side of either party.
I am basically on the side of just letting everyone be who they are and things will settle down.
Even though this site has plenty of trash talk, everyone still keeps posting.
I notice everyone works through it even though both sides seem to hate one another.

Romes was on the verge of self banishment.
Other members did ask to be terminated.
The site seemed to go on a steady decline from that point on.
I joined and self banned but got nuked a few weeks later.
ZK joined and has been walking a thin edge getting suspended constantly.
WoN got outed as Strictly AP and nuked.
DarkOz ran into some problems recently.
Of course I think Mickeycrimm had his issues prior to this.

Another point is that if I would of read the Rules and this thread earlier I probably wouldn't have been nuked.
Although my personality is somewhat self destructive and I do believe I would of found another way to get banished to Misfit Island.

Did you know this was a direct quote from QFIT... ?

Oh. BTW, I also eat live babies.

Obvious Sarcasm I think lol.


This was probably already discussed but I found this Wizard Quote interesting...

I'll also put out there that I am open minded about reinstating Kewlj if you two come to some kind of true peace and I can trust the two of you to play nicely together here.

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Originally Posted by monet

I started reading the WoV thread:
My point is I read the first 20 pages of this Second Suspension Thread.
It got really heated about kewlJ and Qfit.

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I am not familiar it, how did THAT one go? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by monet

Outright war between certain members.
So far it seemed the whole WoV board was on the side of kewlJ.
Even though the Wizard admitted he handled it poorly it did not matter.
The decision was made and was Final.
Amazing how the Mob could not thwart the Dictator.
Years later we over here are still discussing the issue.
Kind of a Fun read actually from my POV since I am not on the side of either party.
I am basically on the side of just letting everyone be who they are and things will settle down.
Even though this site has plenty of trash talk, everyone still keeps posting.
I notice everyone works through it even though both sides seem to hate one another.

Romes was on the verge of self banishment.
Other members did ask to be terminated.
The site seemed to go on a steady decline from that point on.

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Oh yeah that's right. ;)

So how ever you felt about it at the time, looking back you now see some undeniable facts that maybe people didn't see at the time.

Take a look at Qfit's profile:

He joined WoV Feb 12, 2010

Made 9 posts in February and March 2010

Ten disappeared for 5 years, 9 months.

During this time away he publicly stated that he didn't participate at WoV because he didn't trust Wizard due to the Venetian connection.

re-emerged on Dec 31, 2015 to renew a feud with me from another forum.....his forum.

Played Mike to ban me

After I was banned QFIT stuck around for a bit making periodic posts, usually promoting something he was doing

And then finally disappeared yet again.

Is there anyone who can look at that chronological history of events and determine that QFIT didn't return for the sole purpose of getting Mike to ban someone because he didn't like what I had to say? I mean seriously? The fact that Mike hasn't been big enough to admit that now 3 years later, with the benefit of hindsight, magnifies his biggest shortcoming in my opinion.

And the "I eat live babies thing"...what a weirdo.

I was only reading it for the newest posts.
I got trapped in the entertainment of the first 20 pages.
I think it is good to re read it and learn about members thoughts and our own actions or mistakes.
Right or Wrong doesn't really matter.
I know I shouldn't bring it up since I am stirring the pot or opening old wounds but it is what it is.

It seems that Teliot came to QFITs defense...

Recently Boz came to Teliot's defense as well over the WoN/DarkOz issue.
Boz would most likely defend Bob Dancer.
I can't back this up it is more of a needle to Bosworth.

In my opinion KJ has obsessed over the single idea of defending that a professional blackjack player can do just fine with a level one count. I've personally seen this over and over again, across multiple boards, each time wearing his welcome out. What he did here he's done elsewhere. Whether he is right or not about hi-lo (he is right, of course) is not the issue for him. The issue for him is that others in the position of advising or educating less skilled players should vociferously acknowledge he is right and advise that other opinions are wrong. I have to say that such threads are excruciatingly boring. I may be in the minority, but as someone watching these battles in numerous forums, I cannot honestly see one thing that Norm has done to incite or exacerbate any of this. Meanwhile, KJ seems to obsessively search out new forums to spread his message and re-hash his battles.

I have personally known Norm since 1996 (he probably doesn't recall our first e-mail exchange). In all that time, he has been a gentleman. I say that even in the shadow of forum battles he and I had back in the early 2000's. I have to say that Norm has been extraordinarily restrained here, given that almost no one has come to his defense. - Teliot -

Your still reading Monet? Let me know how that saga ends. ;)

Teliot (Eliot Jacobson) Failed blackjack card counter. Tried to play blackjack professionally, failed and then began working for the casino Industry as a consultant protecting against AP's. Short version: Teliot was and is a traitor. I was one of a number in the community that didn't look too kindly on that and told him so every chance I got. So given the chance to side against me, it is no surprise that he did. I would say his "support" of Norm (Qfit) was probably more about not supporting me and getting a little payback because I had publicly called him a traitor numerous times.

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Originally Posted by monet

This was probably already discussed but I found this Wizard Quote interesting...

I'll also put out there that I am open minded about reinstating Kewlj if you two come to some kind of true peace and I can trust the two of you to play nicely together here.

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I think I can shed some light on this one too. After Mike banned me, he and I began communicating privately for several weeks. During that time I was able to explain to Mike what this feud was really about, a fraud on Qfit's blackjack site that was making mathematically impossible claims about his blackjack system, almost identical to our Rob singer situation here. Only difference was unlike here, where no one really believes Rob, the younger players were all falling for the blackjack fraud guys BS. Norm (QFIT) was protecting this fraud because he was the site's leading poster and QFIT wanted the traffic

So after I explained this to Mike, he promised to do some reading of Qfit's site and look into it. But I am guessing he never did.

So anyway, Mike and I communicating privately reached an agreement that would allow me to return. Or I thought we reached an agreement. And then at the last second Mike informed me that he would have to run it by QFIT for his approval. Mike came back and said QFIT was not agreeable. I didn't even realize that QFIT was calling the shots. I thought WoV was Mike's forum.....silly me. :rolleyes:

Oh no ... Ground Hog Day again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bir1F7QTSL8

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Originally Posted by monet

I was only reading it for the newest posts.
I got trapped in the entertainment of the first 20 pages.
I think it is good to re read it and learn about members thoughts and our own actions or mistakes.
Right or Wrong doesn't really matter.
I know I shouldn't bring it up since I am stirring the pot or opening old wounds but it is what it is.

It seems that Teliot came to QFITs defense...

Recently Boz came to Teliot's defense as well over the WoN/DarkOz issue.
Boz would most likely defend Bob Dancer.
I can't back this up it is more of a needle to Bosworth.

In my opinion KJ has obsessed over the single idea of defending that a professional blackjack player can do just fine with a level one count. I've personally seen this over and over again, across multiple boards, each time wearing his welcome out. What he did here he's done elsewhere. Whether he is right or not about hi-lo (he is right, of course) is not the issue for him. The issue for him is that others in the position of advising or educating less skilled players should vociferously acknowledge he is right and advise that other opinions are wrong. I have to say that such threads are excruciatingly boring. I may be in the minority, but as someone watching these battles in numerous forums, I cannot honestly see one thing that Norm has done to incite or exacerbate any of this. Meanwhile, KJ seems to obsessively search out new forums to spread his message and re-hash his battles.

I have personally known Norm since 1996 (he probably doesn't recall our first e-mail exchange). In all that time, he has been a gentleman. I say that even in the shadow of forum battles he and I had back in the early 2000's. I have to say that Norm has been extraordinarily restrained here, given that almost no one has come to his defense. - Teliot -

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My defense of Eliot was more about him getting suspended for bringing up and “doxxing” WoV. The continuing requests to not bring up WoV are Bullshit and an attempt to cover up the fact that everyone knew WoV was a sock and was allowed to post after being banned. Jokes were posted almost daily and everyone played along. All the while he was using WoV to find more people to fuck including advertising in his tag line.

I still don’t like how it was swept away like it never happened. As for Eliot, I understand why many hate him personally, but is he any different than the Wiz working for V? Or what Monet is doing here? What is the threshold for putting plays out there? Anything posted may hurt someone.

And no, I’m not a Dancer defender, anyone expecting to learn how to beat a casino at a casino sponsored class deserves everything they get.

One major difference when I post information.
I don't make a dime from it.
I have no ulterior motive.
I do not want to talk politics.
This is a gambling site and I talk about serious ways to go about gambling in Las Vegas Casinos.
The information I post is already well known on both sides of the fence.
Most of the information is either dead or on the way out.
At least on this site we are free to talk about whatever we want to with no fear from Mods closing our threads and deleting public information.
I agree with making movies, music and video games free to everyone as well. (File Sharing)
Perhaps I am wrong. I have been wrong before.

In my own experience I know that not many will actually use any information I post.
Either they won't believe it or take the time.
It isn't as easy as typing it out.
It is difficult work.

Nobody wants to talk about mailers or tactics online.
I do not agree with that.
I have no problem talking about those topics.
I do have a problem with people who sell that type of information or charge for it.

Besides according to WoV... this site and its members are toxic.
Nobody at WoV should be reading information over here according to BBB.
This is a wasteland that has no value.
My information or presence is not welcome over there nor is it considered valued.
I will continue to pursue helping players get slight edges through this site for the time being.

Nobody on these forums gave me any information.
All the information I shared has been earned by me alone.
I am free to share that with the public if I choose at no charge.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

As for Eliot, I understand why many hate him personally, but is he any different than the Wiz working for V? Or what Monet is doing here? What is the threshold for putting plays out there? Anything posted may hurt someone.

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I don't know exactly what Wizard did at/for Venetian. Do you? If so tell me. I mean I suspect it didn't favor AP's. I suspect being a math guy and AP, he pointed out some vulnerabilities. :( Stanford Wong and other have done so as well. And I am not crazy about that.

But Eliot Jacobson took it to a whole other level. He was clearly bitter that he could not make a go of it as an AP as he intended, so he set out to sabotage others by sharing everything he could with the industry in great detail. At times he wasn't even getting paid to do so, just did so out of bitterness.

AND there are stories that he even shared personal information about some AP's that knew, knew of, played with, had relationships with. I have never heard anyone remotely suggest that Wizard or Wong did that.

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Originally Posted by monet

I have personally known Norm since 1996 (he probably doesn't recall our first e-mail exchange). In all that time, he has been a gentleman. I say that even in the shadow of forum battles he and I had back in the early 2000's. I have to say that Norm has been extraordinarily restrained here, given that almost no one has come to his defense.[/I] - Teliot -

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Teliot
I inclined to agree. I always liked Norm and defended him on many occasions. As Flash once stated "this is our town." So as long as you agree with Flash and T3, you will be fine. If not? Those two will come after you. IF you defend yourself, then you will get banned. Suffice to say, my regards to Norm have taken an about face. Question. Who is left to come to his defense? He shit in his own cornflakes one to many times.