Slate article about whether or not Vegas is "dead"

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Red Rock and GVR give me a hefty amount of automated freebies monthly, thousands in free play chips, thousands in resorts credits, and lots of free nights. The free nights don't mean much to me, but they have a requirement of staying at least one night to receive the free play chips and the resort credits, which tack onto the room folio.

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As any real advantage player that played the local places knows they began cutting almost completely eliminating offers even before covid. Lead by Boyd, but Stations followed suit. Even Alan documented how his offers went from hundreds of dollars per week for his play down to $15 per week. And it was worse for anybody that was even perceived as playing with an advantage. They have only recently begun to give out a little something reasonable again.

So If you, Turtle are claiming you got all these top comps from Stations all along, it is only further proof that you were nothing but a losing (-EV) player and not just losing player, BUT big time losing player to them. That is the only people that were getting anything from them for most of the last 6-7 years.

You, Turtle make these posts, post after post as if you get this VERY special treatment because you are a bigger player. You ONLY get the special treatment that you do because you are a bigger LOSING player.

Stations casinos is fairly sharp. YOU aren't pulling the wool over their eyes, winning the amounts you claim and then getting top tier freebies. If you are getting top teir freebies, you are losing and losing big time. BUT THAT has always been your real story. You are a pretty big LOSING gambler, who gets comped accordingly. The dishonest part has been all the claims of winning on top. That is just fantasy, Turtle and every single person knows it!

I "worked" stations casinos at the prime of their "offer period", prior to covid, prior to my partners death in 2018. For machine play, including VP which we were playing big you could get separate mailers and offers from separate Station "groups of casinos". You would get a mailer from the group of casinos that have the name "station on them (Boulder, sunset, Sante Fe, Palace and at the time Texas), You would get a separate mailer with separate offers from the 2 Fiesta casinos (now closed). You would get a 3rd mailer for play at Wild West (now closed), and the smaller Barleys, and the Wildfire locations. And you would get a 4th mailer for any table game action at the top 2 resorts GVR and Red Rock. That is 4 different mailers and if you had 3-4 accounts at each you were getting over a dozen mailers from stations alone.

I know or knew what you needed to play to get what offers, including table games where I toned down my bet spread to where it showed about a break even game, maybe slightly -EV with a little rat-holing. My +EV or advantage on that play, came from the match play and free bet table game offers at RR and GVR. And I knew what you had to do and how to play to get those offers. So don't be telling me, how you get top offers from Stations while winning millions. You are just full of shit and only telling part of the story. Only way you got the offers you claim is if you LOST big time, which we have always known you do.

Five posts in a row is quite possibly a forum record.


Btw the move toward retail, restaurants etc. as substantial profit centers seems to have been part of the plan of Bellagio from its opening in 1998.

Speaking of which... one seems to hear remarkably little about Bellagio these days. Not good nor bad, just absolutely nothing. Not making any point just something that occurred to me.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

That is a recent decline from peak earnings, and is commonly attributed to excessive prices and fees.

The diversification in question began long ago. 30 years ago maybe?

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Smurgerburger, do you live in Vegas? If not I assume you spend adequate time here. So you should have seen the commercial airing this year for Red Rock set to the Kiss song I want to rock and roll all night and party everyday. Have you seen it?

Here is the thing. Up until a year or maybe two ago, I never saw a commercial for any of the local type casinos. Not Red rock, or other Station casinos. Nor the Boyd casinos. Maybe South Point was the exception, but the local casinos didn't advertise (at least in the Vegas market). They didn't NEED to advertised. So what changed? Do you think all these advertising campaigns started because they are doing well, or do you think the advertising campaigns started because revenues keep dropping? :confused:

That's a funny argument because reportedly GVR and RR are doing well. Correct me if I am wrong.

Furthermore expanded marketing or a change of marketing strategy can actually indicate optimism. San Manuel used an enormous media campaign if I'm not mistaken after one of their expansions as part of a strategy to become pan-SoCal rather than more local to LA.

But none of this is relevant because nobody is denying that the LV strip is seeing a decline in tourism, not even disagreeing about why. (I actually am skeptical of the theory but haven't put that forward here).

I was simply pointing out that the strategy of moving away from gaming as more or less the sole source of profit has been amply vindicated. Even the currently below peak revenue is surely far greater than it was in the old days.

There is a variety of reasons as to why Vegas is on the decline and has been for at least half dozen years dating pre-covid. Some want to blame Trump for declines in tourism from Canada and Europe this year. I have refrained from mentioning that as it has gone on much longer than the last 10 months.

Covid was a factor. Vegas and casinos never fully bounced back to pre-covid.

Casino in every state now is a factor, although going to a local casino in someplace like Pennsylvania is NOT like going to Vegas.

More and more "fees" on top of expenses are a factor. People are so sick of all these hidden or added fees and price gouging.

All the things done to increase house advantage, 6:5 blackjack, double zero, now triple zero, (did I hear of 4 zero) roulette. Lower pay tables on VP. Lower payout on slots.

And I go back to Vegas moving away from gambling and more into general tourism type things.

They are all factors. And again, I blame at least some of it on casinos moving to pencil pushers running things rather than they good old boys that understand the casino business.

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Maybe I am "old school" acctinQ, but Vegas is NOT Disneyworld or any other touristy location like that. And I think it was a mistake to try to be. Las Vegas is LAS VEGAS, a gambling destination. The premier gambling destination in the United States, (the world at one time). Why did they move away from that towards shopping and shit like that? :confused:

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Bellagio

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Whether you hear or read about it or not, the place is constantly packed.

Day and night, even mid week.

https://i.imgur.com/VvZtY9tl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jKDxGe3l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5XjVX9Rl.jpg

Right now people can't even get to the fountain due to the F1 paddocks except at the end across from Caesars, and yet they still come.

This is of course that "empty Strip" UNKewlJ writes about (without actually stepping foot in it) from his homeless abode around the corner of E Bonanza Rd and N Las Vegas Blvd.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Kewl, how do you attribute the performance of the casinos in any way to their shift from gambling to other things?

The fact is there are tons of casinos all around the US that provide a better gambling experience.

Ok, so someone advertises on TV. It isn't a case of "needing" it so much as some MBA dude decided that the EV behind the ads was worth it.

You don't seem to realize that revenue could have easily dropped far more if LV had not diversified past gambling.


I'm bitter after staying in LV for a few weeks. Rooms were nicely priced but I couldn't even get a place to eat if they didn't have a seat yourself bar. The managers were too much into trying to maximize profit so seating one person costs them. Just a shitty experience.

Went recently with my girlfriend and had a far better experience. Banged on some slots with her card one day so she should get some cheap rooms at MGM. Just accept you pay too much on the Strip for everything you can buy.

Oh that fancy bag of potato chips that is some flavor you haven't seen? Well we haven't put a price on the shelves but that'll be $19.99. lol. So fuck LV.

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Maybe I am "old school" acctinQ, but Vegas is NOT Disneyworld or any other touristy location like that. And I think it was a mistake to try to be. Las Vegas is LAS VEGAS, a gambling destination. The premier gambling destination in the United States, (the world at one time). Why did they move away from that towards shopping and shit like that? :confused:

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Uhh because there are better gambling destinations all over the US? Because people like to spend money and not just gamble it away?

I know - movies make old LV seem cool and when I went there at age 24 or whatever for the first time I thought it was sooo cool .. but now I go to casinos within a few hours drive and they're much, much better.

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

This is of course that "empty Strip" UNKewlJ writes about (without actually stepping foot in it) from his homeless abode around the corner of E Bonanza Rd and N Las Vegas Blvd.

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Nobody is saying Vegas or the strip is empty asshole. The discussion is about the decline from 7-8 years ago (pre-covid) and a good discussion on different reasons why.

My whole game right now is playing during busier times, in the shadow of bigger bettors. I couldn't do that if the strip was empty. But it is less crowded (even during busier times) than it used to be. If I was trying to do what I now do, how I now play, 8-10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to or would have a much harder time maneuvering around and would make less money with greater aggravation. So I am not entirely displeased at the decline. I have made it work for me.

We (most of us) are just having a discussion about the decline and possible reasons for it. Of course, you Turtle want to turn everything about you and your silly little fairytale.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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I idolize the gangster days of Vegas? :confused: Where dude? Link to anything I have said idolizing gangsters or the gangster days. :cool:

If anything I idolize the post gangster Las Vegas. 90s, 2000's when the gangsters were gone and corporation ran things, but actual casino people were still in charge. :rolleyes:

Admittedly, I probably see things through a different lense than you. In my time living here, and my half dozen trips prior to moving here, Never or very rarely (maybe when I had friends visit) have I been interested in the touristy things.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Why said it had to be gambling only? You are like Redietz - you idolize old gangster days far too much. Nasty filthy people.

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I idolize the gangster days of Vegas? :confused: Where dude? Link to anything I have said idolizing gangsters or the gangster days. :cool:

If anything I idolize the post gangster Las Vegas. 90s, 2000's when the gangsters were gone and corporation ran things, but actual casino people were still in charge. :rolleyes:

Admittedly, I probably see things through a different lense than you. In my time living here, and my half dozen trips prior to moving here, Never or very rarely (maybe when I had friends visit) have I been interested in the touristy things.

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WTF is so great about a place that only has gambling and cheap food? If not for the romanticizing of the gangster bullshit - what is there?

Downtown LV hasn't changed that much. There are no shopping or shows for the most part. I guess plaza has a showroom and probably Circa? I dunno but that stuff is still there.

I'm not even sure why you think gambling is not a "touristy" thing? I guess you just want to present yourself as some hardened no nonsense gambler on this forum. lol whatever.

I don't totally disagree about the shows and shopping but I'm happy to have the shows option. Why would I ever go to LV just to gamble? I can stay in my geographic area. Having different choices available is a good thing.

My issue is the nickel and diming. Losing thousands one night and not being able to find a place to sit for hours because the tables are for multiple people as is the bar.

Casinos used to make 80% or 90% of their revenue from gaming. It was actually the Mirage that changed the model. Only about 40% of their revenue came from gaming. Back then Steve Wynn was saying they will come for the party.

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Originally Posted by Don Perignom

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

There's also the complaint about rooms being too expensive, which simply doesn't hold water. Las Vegas actually has CHEAPER rooms than most big cities, especially during the week. The room costs aren't the problem.

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Not only that, but comps and discounts are readily available for anyone willing or able to be slightly savvy.

I think resort fees have created a bad impression. They may be a smart business tactic overall, but some customers feel cheated.

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They were never a smart business tactic, and I've tracked them in their various incarnations over the past 20 years.

Here was the progression (and I'm talking about nationally, not just in Vegas):

2005ish: Resort fees appear at various properties which can loosely call themselves resorts, but have not appeared in Vegas yet. They're usually around $7, and you can opt out of them if you fight hard enough. They were initially put in place to get a little extra money without raising advertised prices and without paying travel agents more commission. They were also passed along to Priceline customers who bid a flat rate, which was especially shitty.

2008ish: Resort fees had somewhat increased, and also hotels smartened up to list them in the fine print, thus making opting out much harder. Previously, the savvy traveler could claim they were never disclosed, and not be legally required to pay them.

2010ish: Resort fees come to Vegas and many other big city properties, mostly as a way to be listed cheaper in online hotel price search engines.

2012ish: Caesars tries a campaign where they brag about no resort fees. It backfires badly. While they gained some positive PR, all of their properties were showing way below their competition when sorted by price on search engines, due to them having to disclose the rates.

2013ish: Caesars puts the resort fees back.

2014-2025: Resort fees keep increasing and are in most hotels nowadays. Vegas resort fees are over $50 per night, and other cities they tend to range between $20 and $50. Even a semi-recent law requiring them to be disclosed up front in price quotes didn't stop them. They're just disclosed earlier.


Anyway, I just estimated those dates above, hence the "ish". I don't feel like going and looking them up.

The point is that they were always hated by travelers, and now are cited as one of the big reasons people hate Vegas. It's somewhat unfair, as resort fees are everywhere now, but they're seen as a symptom of the nickel-and-dime culture of the strip nowadays.

I deleted about 20 messages by kewlJ and MDawg.

If this shitposting continues, I will ban both of you from the thread.

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I deleted about 20 messages by kewlJ and MDawg.

If this shitposting continues, I will ban both of you from the thread.

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If Druff had 2 kids and one stabbed the other one in the eye he'd say "Now kids, you better both start behaving or I'll take the knife away."

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

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Several years ago there was a bill introduced in Congress (or maybe just talk of a bill) that would eliminate hidden fees like resort fees and all the hidden fees that airlines use and force hotels and airlines to have one price that they advertise.

What happened to that bill? It disappeared. Probably congress changed hands and the side more friendly to big business took over. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

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This sounds like the Vegas I fell in love with. late 1990's (although that was before I ever got to Vegas) and early/mid 2000's. Not the Mob run Vegas of the 80's , but the Vegas controlled by corporations but run by legit casino people that knew what they were doing. Before they turned things over to the Business school geniuses.

House edges should be small. 3-2 blackjack (less than 1% house edge), single or maybe double zero roulette, VP paying 99%, slots upper 90%. The kind of advantage where if a recreational (non-AP) player comes to town for a couple days and plays 8-10 hours they still have a decent chance to win maybe 3 out of 10 trips.

But the casinos couldn't have that. They want all the gambler's money in 2 hours and the recreational gambler almost never winning for a trip. They only saw the short-term of that. Never looked at what that would mean long-term as far as declining customer base.

THAT is the story of the business school rejects taking control.