About to go to gaming regarding confiscated points after (unfair) ban from Vegas casino -- advice?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan my guess is that if they refuse to reinvestigate you either pissed them off or they are convinced you are in the wrong. In the spirit of this forum I think this really is a coin flip but heads you lost and tails you lost.

Now the question is how much damage has been done. So several questions:

How much money is involved? Please let it be a cash value of at least $1,000. If you tell us you're going to file a claim for $100 you're wasting everyone's time.

What casino is it? Is it a casino you need to go to again because of its proximity to the WSOP? Or is it some small casino you visited for one night because you didn't want to burn your comps somewhere else?

Now you're saying it may not actually be mistaken identity. Well get your story straight. If you can't get it straight here you're not going to get it straight with a formal legal complaint.

Are you on a fishing expedition here looking for the "right circumstances" for your nebulous claim?

Details Dan or drop it. Waffling has no credibility.

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I said that I think it could be mistaken identity, but I'm not sure. How can I be sure if they will barely tell me anything and won't return my calls?

Think, Alan, think!

The cash value is less than $1000.

It is not a waste of time, because that money is owed to me, and I am not going to let them keep it.

If you believe money under $1000 is so little, agree to pay me that amount and I promise to drop this matter and never speak of it again.

Otherwise, you have no right to tell me what money is "worth the time" for me to pursue.

Dan I would be more concerned about being banned than getting the value of the points.

But yes, if it's $1,000 it is a worthwhile amount of money. But what if it's $200, or $100?

How do you choose between getting the ban resolved in your favor or getting let's say $200 but the ban stays in place?

That ban could haunt you for a long time and grow to affect you elsewhere. You never mention the property, but is it part of a group?

Yes, getting the ban resolved is more important than the points.

I agree.

That's why I hadn't gone to gaming yet.

Unfortunately, the ban isn't going to get resolved. They are refusing to listen to me and refusing to verify that their investigation was accurate. My ban is going to stand permanently, it seems.

That's why I'm focusing upon the points now.

You still haven't written and mailed a formal letter yet, have you? Yet you're convinced the ban isn't going to get resolved?

Going to the NGC is going to get the points issue resolved... one way or the other. But regardless of the NGC's decision your name will be sullied forever.

Think carefully.

I haven't commented on this situation because Dan hasn't revealed all the information and without that everything is just speculation and there seems to be a lot of that going on. I don't fault Dan for not releasing all the information if it is sensitive to the situation and/or outcome of the situation. But I wonder why he would even start this conversation under that circumstance.

So I do have some general comments, that may or may not be relevant to this situation and a follow-up question that Dan may or may not want to answer.

AP's, particular table game AP's and even more particular card counters have been dealing with this kind of thing forever...at least most of my 15 years as a blackjack card counter AP. Casinos can and will ban you at any time and they don not have to give a reason and often make up a reason when they do give one. A very common "made up" reason is creating a disturbance. And it is almost impossible to get these decisions reversed. To the point that most don't even try. Casinos are within their right to do so, for any reason, without explanation. As I have said before, we play the game on their (casinos) home court and they get to act as the referee. :rolleyes:

And zeroing out points and comp dollars is a very common counter-measure against AP's. Sometimes this occurs before we are even banned or backed off. Sometimes this is the very first action along with no mail, that we see.

Now I know Dan has stated that this has nothing to do with him APing anything. So I have one question for Dan: Do you have an entry in OSN (Oregon Surveillance Network) or Biometrics Databases that you are aware of? I ask because frankly despite your statement that this has nothing to do with advantage play, this sounds like countermeasures to an AP situation. And with the industry recently cracking down more on machine AP's and one of the "local" chains here in Vegas even announcing their "crackdown on AP's" directed at machine type AP's, I am wondering if you simply aren't understanding what this action is really about?

Edit/add on: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the scenario where the casino stops responding and communication is also a very common tactic involving AP's. Again, from my experience, and based on the limited information that you did provide, everything points to this being a counter-AP action, that you just are not recognizing as such.

Kewlj if Dan has been banned as a counter AP measure I think he can wear that as a badge of honor. BUT if somewhere there is a record -- even a false record -- of him damaging casino property, or assaulting an employee, or theft, or any non gaming violation it could seriously damage his good name and reputation and impact everything in his life, not to mention how he is treated at other casino properties.

Dan has a professional reputation he must protect.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Kewlj if Dan has been banned as a counter AP measure I think he can wear that as a badge of honor. BUT if somewhere there is a record -- even a false record -- of him damaging casino property, or assaulting an employee, or theft, or any non gaming violation it could seriously damage his good name and reputation and impact everything in his life, not to mention how he is treated at other casino properties.

Dan has a professional reputation he must protect.

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I thought you said he ruined his reputation for allowing a Penis Thread and talk about Sexually Abusing daughters, mothers and grandmothers?
Some members might say that lifting the Rob Singer ban ruined his reputation.
If Dan doesn't let Rob Singer back on this site and post in all threads... would the Penis Thread every have been posted?
In essence, since Dan allows Rob Singer to post; are you saying that he (Dan) is responsible for the Penis Thread?
I thought Rob and Alan were friends?
Did the Penis and Grandmother Talk ruin the Comradery?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BUT if somewhere there is a record -- even a false record -- of him damaging casino property, or assaulting an employee, or theft, or any non gaming violation it could seriously damage his good name and reputation and impact everything in his life,.

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Alan this is precisely why in the case of counter-AP measures, the casino will often use some very vague "made up" thing, so they can't be held responsible for specifics. Only Dan knows if there is more information that he is not revealing that specifically disqualifies this from being an 'advantage player counter measure' type action.

But in the absence of that, I think he should at least consider that possibility, because like I said, these tactics have been commonly used against blackjack card counters for many years and it seems the casino industry has really recently expanded that assault to include machine type players and AP's. And if it turns out this is not an AP counter measure, I think this is still useful information to put out in the wake of this expanded crackdown.

And this ties in to some discussions on anonymity and why AP's are so protective of our identities. The top organizations mentioned that supply databases and information to the casino industry, have people who search not only these gambling related sites, but also non gambling related social media, looking for whatever information they can use.

I wouldn't think this particular site, with it's limited membership and the nature of this site would be top priority, but if one of these people had stumbled here, Dan as owner and someone who is known, and who's real name is known, would be an easy target. Frankly there are enough things he has posted, plays he engages in, even talk about how to best exploit player clubs, that he would be labeled and advantage player and a prime suspect for countermeasures. Not offense to Dan, but because he owns the site and is so well known, he would be easy pickings.

Shackleford too could fall into this category. And frankly we don't know that he hasn't.

I'm taking Dan at his word that he says this was not casino play related. So I am eliminating the anti AP possibility here.

Bob Dancer's case was anti AP.

From what gaming told Dan it sounds like the casino is obligated to give a cash value for the points. Sounds like that should be able to be resolved on his own without getting gaming involved. I'm sure the property does not want gaming involved.

There are many places to gamble. If it is a Caesars property to prevent you from playing in the wsop that would really suck.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

You still haven't written and mailed a formal letter yet, have you? Yet you're convinced the ban isn't going to get resolved?

Going to the NGC is going to get the points issue resolved... one way or the other. But regardless of the NGC's decision your name will be sullied forever.

Think carefully.

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Define a "formal letter"?

Who would it be written to?

I have e-mailed people directly involved in the decision to ban me. In fact, I've sent several e-mails. All have been ignored. If I were to write a paper letter, it would be forwarded to these same people.

I've also made lots of phone calls.

The ban is permanent. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

If the ban is permanent and you're an innocent victim then why protect the casino? Tell the story. Let us all know what happened so we can avoid the place.

And let us know how it works out with the NGC.

Guys it's possible that Dan is hesitant to say the property or what they accused him of because he feels they could sue him for coming forth with it....

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Originally Posted by Tasha

Guys it's possible that Dan is hesitant to say the property or what they accused him of because he feels they could sue him for coming forth with it....

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Sue Dan for telling everyone why a casino/hotel banned him? LOL

He can do what he wants...

It wasn't a Caesars property he made it clear in his original post. I missed it first time I read...

Do any other properties really matter to a poker player? I suppose Aria...

Regarding which properties matter most to me, the most important is Caesars (WSOP), the second most important is MGM (Bellagio).

As I said before, the ban was NOT at a Caesars property. I remain in good standing there.

I am not naming the casino because it can affect my ongoing situation.

Once I go as far as making a Gaming complaint, then I will name the casino and state all the details.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Badbeet, I think at virtually all casinos (that have a player's club) you are not required to use your card if you have one. If any forum members know of exceptions to this I would be very appreciative of links to such rules.

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I've heard stories of in Black Jack pits them requiring a card or ID before taking action...

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That sounds reasonable, however that is a discretionary decision by the pit boss, rather than a formal player club's rule probably.

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I know that at Harrah's So Cal it is required that you show your card or an ID if you are playing on double deck BJ tables with $25 or more/bet. I argued with them about it and they said it was a hard rule that they had. I am sure it is specific to So Cal but they definitely weren't going to let me play. I could have walked right over to a $15 shoe table and wouldn't have been required to show anything.a

I am not saying this is the rule across all Caesars properties but it is the rule at So. Cal.

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Originally Posted by Slyfox56

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

I've heard stories of in Black Jack pits them requiring a card or ID before taking action...

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That sounds reasonable, however that is a discretionary decision by the pit boss, rather than a formal player club's rule probably.

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I know that at Harrah's So Cal it is required that you show your card or an ID if you are playing on double deck BJ tables with $25 or more/bet. I argued with them about it and they said it was a hard rule that they had. I am sure it is specific to So Cal but they definitely weren't going to let me play. I could have walked right over to a $15 shoe table and wouldn't have been required to show anything.a

I am not saying this is the rule across all Caesars properties but it is the rule at So. Cal.

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You can play without showing your player's club card - you just have to show an ID such as a CA driver's license or CA DMV ID. A situation which absolutely requires you show your player's club if you belong to the player's club with no other piece of ID sufficing would be interesting to see - never heard or seen this rule if it exists (the original question referred to the player's club card only - Mickey actually posted a picture of a sign showing the very rule you refer to where an ID must be shown to play BJ) .

When I go to the cage, even with two 25 chips they ask for my card. Not an ID... but my players cards

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

When I go to the cage, even with two 25 chips they ask for my card. Not an ID... but my players cards

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Badbeet, are you allowed to play blackjack at that casino without showing your players club card ? If there is a rule in place at this casino making showing your players club card mandatory before taking action then I have to wonder why you posed question in the first place (https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...01#post80201):
"Is there something in the players club rules stating that you must use your players card if you have one?"

Also, your original question, shown above, wasn't just restricted to blackjack but any felt game or machine game, but later morphed into blackjack only, chip redemption at a cashier's cage and any ID not just a player's club card. Quite the moving target.

Anyway, I will state again that I would like to see an explicit rule (web link I guess) about only getting to play machine or felt games if you show your player's club card (how they would enforce this on machine play is a whole other matter). I've never seen this rule so I am curious.

I don't play black jack... But I have been playing other games and have seen them ask a player for his card in order to play. So it depends on the casino.

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

I don't play black jack... But I have been playing other games and have seen them ask a player for his card in order to play. So it depends on the casino.

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So if the player instead provided a government-issued ID the casino wouldn't take any action from the player right ? Is there a rule explicitly stating that only a player's club card can be used for action ? If so then why did you ask if there was such a rule in the 1st place (see the quote in red above) ? If not, then why are you trying to imply that there is ?

Man, I don't know... I've just been told / heard that to play some black jack games you must show some kind of ID, player card or something.

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Man, I don't know... I've just been told / heard that to play some black jack games you must show some kind of ID, player card or something.

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I think for the time being then, I will just assume that it is very unlikely that a rule that only a player's club card will suffice to get action exists. Hopefully someone will post a link to such a rule since it would be interesting to see such a thing in the same way it would be interesting to see some animal alive that was thought to be extinct or a new species from the deep ocean.

BUMP

Any news on this story yet Dan? Going on three months.

BUMP

Isn't it obvious Dan won't respond?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Isn't it obvious Dan won't respond?

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Why do you think that is?

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Isn't it obvious Dan won't respond?

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Why do you think that is?

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First of all his case could be pending and it would be improper to comment if that's the case. Secondly he has time to file a case and he still might be trying to work things out. Then he could think his case would fail.

That he is not saying anything is not unusual. And no one should jump to conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

First of all his case could be pending and it would be improper to comment if that's the case. Secondly he has time to file a case and he still might be trying to work things out. Then he could think his case would fail.

That he is not saying anything is not unusual. And no one should jump to conclusions.

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No one's jumping to conclusions. Dan speaks English fluently.

Gaming handles these minor issues very quickly. The case has been over for some time. Dan just doesn't want anyone to know what's going on.

His choice.

I have decided not to go to Gaming just yet. I decided to let things cool down for a few months, and then am going to write a letter to upper management in a calm, rational fashion and ask for them to review the situation.

If they refuse or fail to respond to me, at that point I will go fully public about the matter.

A few months from now? The response will be: we have no information available and cannot review your matter.

You'll be back at square one. Or worse.

If the NGC takes your case the casino will tell them the same thing -- too much time has elapsed.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

A few months from now? The response will be: we have no information available and cannot review your matter.

You'll be back at square one. Or worse.

If the NGC takes your case the casino will tell them the same thing -- too much time has elapsed.

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The NGC won't be getting my ban overturned. They can't do that in a case like mine. The NGC would only be over the (small) financial matter, and only as a last resort.

I agree that my final unbanning attempt will probably end in failure, but I'm going to be contacting a different (and higher) department, and try to appeal to them to reevaluate.

Most likely, I will just get ignored.

Dan I've been thinking about this. The longer you wait the less likely anything will happen in your favor.

The more time that elapsed the easier it will be for them to say "I'm sorry but there is no one here who can support you."

Employees leave, get reassigned and simply forget.