The mob had its mitts in both, but I`d definitely say horse racing....Only so many ways to fix a fight. In horse racing there`s numerousQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
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The mob had its mitts in both, but I`d definitely say horse racing....Only so many ways to fix a fight. In horse racing there`s numerousQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
I imagine more fighters personally care about whether or not they win than horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneThe mob had its mitts in both, but I`d definitely say horse racing....Only so many ways to fix a fight. In horse racing there`s numerousQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
I recall reading how "back in the day" boxing was mob-controlled, that the mob "owned" certain fighters and fixed fights.
Any idea as to which fighters in particular were mob-controlled?
KewlJ--the cheating is rampant in this sport. While you make a reasonable argument that if it were so widespread, that it would be made public and there would be investigations, indictments, etc. Unfortunately, while that would be reasonable it just isn't happening. Trainers get caught with innumerable positives for drug infractions. They get a slap on the wrist with a small fine. Repeat offenders that everyone knows are using drugs just get a slap. The tracks and management don't want to ban these trainers because those trainers have a lot of horses in their stables. Tracks want full fields for us to wager on. The more horses in a race, the bigger the handle and the greater the interest for the bettor. If you ban these trainers, they take their horses elsewhere and you get smaller fields and reduced handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhile blackhole's 2 posts on horseracing are easily his biggest contribution to the foum on topic of gambling, because he has contributed zero eles on topic, just trolled, I would advice against putting much value in anything he says. Like everything else, he relays an opinion that is very negative and jaded. While we have all heard of occasional races being "fixed" scandels, if what blackhole is saying was anywhere close to being true, image all the players that would be involved in the fixing of damn near every race as he tells it. Different jockeys, owners, trainers, grooms, race track officials like timers. That would be hundreds of people involved in these crimes, and then if this were industry wide....at how many tracks 50? 100?. Over how many years/decades now? That would be 10's of thousands of people involved, as blackhole tells it....as he says the industry is run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
You don't think somewhere along the line these accusations would be made public? Give me a break. This is just a guy with conspiracy theories and nagativity about everything.
The truth is probably something much closer to this. Perhaps blackhole was a horse owner at the lower level. They even have programs where people can own a 'share' of a horse. So perhaps he owned a share of a horse or two or even owned a horse outright. No doubt, at the low end, a low claimer. So blackhole's horse(s) didn't do very well. No surprise. So he has a conspiracy theory that everyone involved was cheating and out to get him.
I would even go as far to say, there probably was no horse ownership of any kind involved. Blackhole is probably a degenerate horse player. Most of us figured he was a degenerate gambler of some kind. So this lifetime losing, degenerate horse player is spewing typical losing horse player nonsense about cheating and everyone out to get him.
That's my take. But I sure wouldn't put ANY stock in what this guy says. Mission, if you want to learn something, anything about horseracing or any other topic, go to a more relaible source than this nut.
Baffert has been caught numerous times. he was recently banned in new York and Kentucky. He already had the New York ban overturned because our judges are pretty much morons. He will probably also win in Kentucky but you would hope a Kentucky judge would have a better understanding of racing.
Keystone mentioned Servis and Navarro. The government spent a fortune on this case. Navarro plead guilty to one count and will get some jail time and fines. Servis is still fighting it. They had all kinds of evidence and wire taps and stoolies. But everyone has known for years what these guys were doing. A good trainer may win at a 15-25% clip. Navarro was winning at 35% or higher. He was previously banned from several tracks. He was previously caught on tape talking about his drugging of horses. But through all those years he still trained and won and laughed at us all.
So what I am saying is that you should not expect that anyone will actually do anything about the day to day cheating.
Come on...stop mission. I am not doubting either regnis or keystone. I have no issues with their credibility nor do I think they are part of a blackhole cult.
All I said was based on blackhole's credibility I would want to hear from others more credible. And now we have.
Blackhole alone has zero credibility in anything he says after all the lying. Much the same as Singer. They did that themselves by choosing to lie and troll. That is what credibility is.
Off to work now. Have a good day.
You have constantly lied across all gambling forums for years and you keep bashing other people for lying... RIP.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
BH may have zero credibility viz. his flames, but the racing info is a horse of a different color.
Take it with the proverbial grain of salt, but at least it is coherent, gambling related and interesting.
Remember, just because someone has only screamed angrily in the past does not mean they cannot also sing sweetly if they want to.
Okay, given that Blackhole has not made a single statement yet that has not been supported by people who are purported to know, I am going to decide, based on the limited conversation had so far, that I have no reason as yet to question Blackhole's credibility on the matter of horse racing. If the evidence points either way, then it would point to Blackhole's posts on horse racing being quite credible.
That out of the way, let's get some more stories!
Sonny ListonQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
What have I lied about across many forums Monet? I accept blame that I lied 10 years ago with the fake death thing after being robbed. I thought that would offer me some protection against it occuring again. It was a bad decision. I have never run from it and accept blame. That people want to continue 10 years later to hold that against me, it more than likely means they don't like me for some other reason. I mean were you even on that blackjack forum at that time. I would doubt it, so your just looking for a reason to attack me.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
So other than that what else have I lied about? Saying I am quitting a forum or not returning to a forum and changing my mind? That is silly, that is just a person changing their mind. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean seriously, tell me something I have said about blackjack, my experiences, or gambling that is a lie? Stop being such a hater, Porkchop. :p
Just walked in the door from spending a whole day with my boys at the office. Same day planned for tomorrow.
It will take awhile to address all of Mission questions but I promise to answer all questions. (based on what I know for facts) Water already running for shower and I need to have dinner. Be back in little while with some answers.
I would like to take a second and address Kewlj's comments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xeUUQZSpJs&t=3s
It seems BH may have "turned over a new leaf" ...
You don't get to decide for us what is credible and what isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Keystone requested that I contribute to the forum and I think MaxPen approved this post.
After a 2 week hiatus and 1 week failed negotiation with a professional I decided to try again.
The plan is back to building a Mud Pan.
Since I never done it before I am going to try to build a pre-slope first to give myself a little practice with the dry pack.
So below are a couple of pictures of my total hack job that I completed in about 10 hours of work.
I turned my garage into a woodshop creating plenty of sawdust with my Piece of Shit, Chink Power Tools.
I bought a 10 inch rough in toilet, just incase, since it looks like my waste pipe will be 11 inches from the finished wall.
I was going to pay an experienced renovator $50 per hour to help me but he flaked out.
I didn't like the way he wanted to build the pan and use permanent Shark-Bite Fittings behind the wall.
From my research I'm told the O-Rings can fail causing leaks.
They used Steel Crimp Rings when the house was built and I haven't seen any problems with those yet.
I'm still a bit undecided on if I should use copper or steel rings or perhaps the steel clamps.
I can't justify the cost of the specific tool to use Uponor fittings although I believe those are the best choice for PEX.
I bought 8 boxes of 12x24 Polished Porcelain Tile.
I also bought two inch Hexagon Tile Sheets for the floor but after rethinking I'm going to return those and get squares as I think they are easier to cut for the layout.
I bought Mapei 27 Silver FlexColor CQ Grout since I'm told that white will get more dirty and black will fade color fast.
I almost bought the KeraPoxy since it claims to be more waterproof but I'm told its harder to work with and if you have to bust it out its much more difficult.
Still learning so probably have to take things back for exchange anyways.
The next step is to decide on the PEX A or B, Fittings (Plastic or Bronze).
Buy the Clamp Tool, cut the PEX, install the elbows and such and secure the valve to the studs.
It's hard enough to figure out what style screws and sizes to use for me lol.
Trying to figure out the exact measurements of roughing in the shower valve and pipes is a bit of a nightmare.
I'm way out of my depth.
Should be a real kick when I have to actually run thinset, cut and place tile on the floor let alone the walls.
However first I get to deal with walling in some 3x6's and trying to build a shower bed and waterproof things while I build a front wall shower bench.
Can't wait for it all to leak and mold up so I have to spend 20 grand tearing it out and rebuilding it.
Fuck Youtube and the information age where they make you believe you can actually do this sort of thing.
Just my worthless opinion.
I have Blackhole blocked but the comments made me log out to see what he posted because it has created a lot of comments.
Reading what he posting, from personal experience he is 100% credible in what he posted as for being factual. The horse racing game has always been a shell game and goes even further than what he has touched on so far. RED and I both lived the world he is talking about in the 80’s at Penn National race track. The same Penn Nation Gaming that parlayed their small horse racing operation in Granville PA into one of the largest gaming operations in the country. They are still based in Wyomissing PA where Peter Carlino started his empire.
As for what BH has said, it’s correct. I had a personal mentor who was a successful restaurant owner who lost everything buying claimers for $2500 and $3500 thinking he could make money as an owner. He loved seeing his name in the program as the trainers and boarding fees ate him alive. Luckily for me he needed money and sold me a pizza shop for 3 times it’s worth in 1983. 3 times it was worth you ask? But in 1983 for a 19 year old kid he financed it with next to nothing down, it was an opportunity few get and I appreciated it. And turned it into a (very) small empire.
So many stories and rumblings about how the owners made more throwing and betting on the races than they ever made from winning races. There was a famous race fixing scandal at PN which only touched on the corruption there. I’m sure PN was small potatoes compared to the bigger tracks.
Another scam was brining horses in from the Florida tracks knowing they would be bet heavily by suckers and then paying them to throw the races for a local horse who hadn’t won in a while. You could throw the racing form out at Penn National because the races were anything but fair. I do remember John Henry coming in late in his career at PN.
Anyways RED could add so much more.
But to the starting question, absolutely what Blackhole is posting is legitimate in how the business worked years ago, and probably still does to some degree. I always saw him as a semi rich guy who has a story to tell but also has a ton of bitterness toward gambling in general and successful gamblers in particular. Hopefully he finds peace with his anger because he definitely has a lot to contribute with his experiences.
Who knows how he will react but I do hope he continues to add to this thread with his stories.
Had to look this up as I went down memory lane.
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/12/s...ce-fixing.html
“ Five jockeys and two trainers have been charged with fixing races in connection with an undercover sting operation at the suburban Penn National track, Attorney General LeRoy Zimmerman said today.
Possible fixes at Keystone Race Track in suburban Philadelphia are being investigated as a result of the Penn National inquiry, Mr. Zimmerman said. He declined to provide details.
The number of races fixed before the sting operation is unknown, he said, and no rigged races were run as part of the investigation….”
I will never name a trainer, jockey, horse, or partner. Regnis seems to be well educated about horses. If he was involved for 50 years I would hope so. Any person like Regnis could look up everything they wanted with any of the above-mentioned names. What I’m sure will eventually come up are derogatory comments and I need to protect everyone that was involved with me alleged or not. No Names.
First of all, I owned 3 horses alone and was partners with 2 other guys on one really good one. I had two different trainers in my short career.
My horses were always stabled in Belmont New York (one of the larger tracks) even in the winter. I was involved from mid-80’s to early-90’s. Each horse cost around $2,000.00 dollars per month. When I left it was up to at least $3,000.00 dollars each per month. Don’t know todays cost but I’m sure it’s much more. That fee was just for the staple and trainer’s fees. Like Regnis said everything, and I mean everything or anything the horse needs, or eats, vets, silks, etc. etc. etc. is added on. When you shipped them to race at Aqueduct N.Y. in the winter you paid for that also. You would always expect another $500.00 to $1,000.00 dollars extra on your monthly bill for all of them combined for add-ons. I never paid entry fees. Not that type quality horses.
I always had 3 horses. By the time I got out they were not the same 3 I started with. If one got claimed, my trainer and I would eventually claim another one or buy one privately. So, when I did get out at that time one of the horses cost $15K sold privately for $11K, another cost $18K sold privately $16K, another cost $20K sold privately for $11K. The allowance horse I partner with when we finally did sell, we sold privately for $50K.
Other than the allowance horse the other three were considered in the basement claiming type horses for Belmont. The quality of horse can get much worse at many other tracks like Rockingham. In the winter most of the real good horses will ship to other tracks like Florida. That’s when my horses were in many races at Aqueduct. The cards in the winter are usually loaded with shit quality horses. We could usually meet entry requirements for each of them like once every two weeks. Some times every week. When the good ones came back, we had to wait to find a spot for them where they would be eligible and competitive.
Purses were all over the place. I’d say could be from $25K to $45K (basement bracket) depending on the race being offered. First got 60% second got 20% forgot the rest but I think they paid up to 5th. If you came in the money you had to pay 10% to your trainer and 10% to the jockey on any winnings. You also had to pay the jockey $100.00 dollars just to ride your horse win or lose. Some were even more. Remember this was mid 1980’s. Also, if you won you always took care of the barn workers with tips. It’s pretty much a lose, lose situation unless of course you won big purses or often.
Without cashing out on the occasional big pay offs which I’ll get into later I don’t think I would have lasted a year.
Claiming horses don’t go to auction. They either get claimed, sold privately, or die.
I’m reading Missions post trying to answers some questions. Feel like I’m all over the place. The claiming horse game needs more explaining. I had enough for tonight. Really tired. Get to more tomorrow night and over the weekend.
The clocker in the morning records the name of the horse identified by lip tattoos if needed, what type of training is being done, and the time the horse did whatever in. This information gets posted in Racing Forums to help handicappers figure how a horse is doing. Certain trainers are close with the timer and he’ll print a fake time to throw handicappers off. Of course, he’s in on it. It gets much worse than that. They will even post the name of one of the trainers better horses to hide how well a cheaper horse is doing getting tuned up for a pay day.
So it seems Blackhole is credible on this topiv, for me based on other members colaboration. Blackhole is a horseracing guy. Who knew???
By rights, I could troll, and argue every point he makes, even when I am wrong and have no idea what I am talking about, but I am not going to do that as some are enjoying the discussion. I too am enjoying the horse racing discussion. And I welcome blackhole participation on anything that isn't just trolling and making an ass of himself.
As a kid I went to racetracks maybe 6 times with my grandfather who was a horse racing guy. Twice to Phila Park and 4 times to Penn National. He lived in between the two, Penn National a little further away, but they had nighttime racing, so he could go after work, so that was more his go to track.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
My first time at Penn National, I saw several horses that were coming from Phila Park and were running in $2500 claimers, which was a drop from Phila Park. I was sure that meant they were better horses and would win and Pop always gave me a couple bucks to bet and would bet them for me. They didn't come close to winning. If I remember, they looked like the horses that didn't belong. Also saw a horse coming from New York, who had run in even higher claiming races. I used the same strategy and he finished last...not even sure he finished the race.
I thought it odd that horses coming from bigger tracks and running against better company couldn't win there. Pop told me Penn National was a pit stop before the glue factory. On subsequent visits, first thing I would do was cross out the horses from Phila Park and New York, regardless of the better company they had been running against.
By report (I was too young to notice) my grandfather loved to bet the horses: he worked in NYC as a pressman at the N Y Daily News (went deaf).
He quit school in eighth grade to go to work to support his family, but was sharp and had a calculating mind.
I'm told he spent a lot of time handicapping and looking for "the right horse.:" he didn't find it all the time, but when he did he went to the track and waited til that one horse ran, which was when he made his only bet of the day.
By report he came out ahead: I wonder how / why / what his "secret" might have been?
I haven't done much either. Spent a day redoing stuff for a double sink, installing some recessed lights, replacement fan, relocating outlet and replacing switches, and patching stuff up.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Plan on getting into the waterproofing and tile setting soon. Should have a day coming up.
I used shark bites. They are approved for behind wall application and underground. They have been around a long time. Plus I was using the shutoffs anyway. I live in a condo. There is no individual unit shut off. I don't like dealing with association. So I just shut the building down for a minute or two and slap them bitches on without anyone being the wiser....lol
ppl
Thanks for the reply!Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
You really trust Shark-Bites enough to put behind the wall for 20 to 25 years without worry of a leak?
I'm just worried the O-Ring will fail over time and I will have to bust everything out once again.
Funny thing is I have 7 or 8 Shark Bite Fittings for this install and I could just gamble but after some horror stories online I'm thinking Clamps are not only better but far cheaper.
Although you do spend all the money on the Clamp Tool but I can use that on Bathroom Number Two and use it again when both Showers Fail.
By the way I have all the Mortar Supplies, Dens-Shield Back Board and Cement Board in the Garage just waiting for me to rough in this valve and get rolling lol.
I'm going to plan on tiling the floor up close to the waste pipe and screw the toilet flange into the tile, subfloor and blocking.
That's the plan at least for now.
I think I have a 1/8 inch or less problem with the pipe as it isn't perfectly level.
The way I understand it is that much of a gap shouldn't be a problem.
That's funny that you installed shark bite shut off valves lol.
Shark bite problems result from poor installation and damage during installation. I have never had a problem. You can have a problem with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by monetThanks for the reply!Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
You really trust Shark-Bites enough to put behind the wall for 20 to 25 years without worry of a leak?
I'm just worried the O-Ring will fail over time and I will have to bust everything out once again.
Funny thing is I have 7 or 8 Shark Bite Fittings for this install and I could just gamble but after some horror stories online I'm thinking Clamps are not only better but far cheaper.
Although you do spend all the money on the Clamp Tool but I can use that on Bathroom Number Two and use it again when both Showers Fail.
By the way I have all the Mortar Supplies, Dens-Shield Back Board and Cement Board in the Garage just waiting for me to rough in this valve and get rolling lol.
I'm going to plan on tiling the floor up close to the waste pipe and screw the toilet flange into the tile, subfloor and blocking.
That's the plan at least for now.
I think I have a 1/8 inch or less problem with the pipe as it isn't perfectly level.
The way I understand it is that much of a gap shouldn't be a problem.
That's funny that you installed shark bit shut off valves lol.
I like my shower faucet around 42" from floor and since I am tall I like the shower head around 80". Wax seal will take care of that pipe for imperfection. Use the type with the cone built in.
I installed the shutoffs and will have access to them. I hate that these places have a shared water line system.
I was hoping for names just because I probably knew the people and horses involved, but I understand your choice not to disclose.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
I have worn many hats in the racing world. I started as a runner, moved up to handicapper, then to representing horsemen. For several years, I put together racing syndications for the budget conscious to get into ownership. For that, I had to become even more knowledgeable about breeding than I already was when breeding was just an interest or hobby for me. I put together all of the legal documents (the prospectus) and selected the horses to be bred or purchased. As me and my trainers got older, I wound up handling the estates and/or dispersal sales of several well-known trainers and owners. During all of that time, I was always a player and that will always be my primary interest.
The stories are endless but I will relate one that shows how pervasive the doping was. My friend had a friend that was under house arrest for selling drugs (pot, cocaine, etc.). I knew him for over a decade and he never once left his house (that I knew of). While he was no longer selling recreational drugs, he was still the supplier for numerous trainers of whatever the performance enhancing drug of the day was for horses. I developed a relationship with him not to supply me or my syndications with drugs, but to tell me which trainers he had shipped to and when. You then just bet that stable for the next 20-30 days as most of those horses were juiced.
Blackhole mentions the clockers and again I have to agree. For many years I was at the track every morning clocking the workouts and they were never very accurate. I don't know if the clocker just was sloppy and didn't care, or if it was intentional. probably both. I also befriended the head of track maintenance. We would talk every morning and he would tell me the depths of the tracks that day and what kind of maintenance had been done. For those of you that aren't Black or Key and may not understand this, it was valuable info as you would know in advance whether the track would favor speed or closers that day.
I guess it is obvious that I have a passion for racing!!!
You make good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
I'm thinking the professionals bad mouth the Shark Bites because they are basically putting them out of a job and or business.
My worry is that Shark Bite has to be on the bottom of the list with options.
I suppose you are correct that most failures in any method is user error.
I'll be completely pissed off if I put this all together and one Shark Bite fails in 2 years and I have to rip everything out again.
And I do not believe in Bull-Shit Warranties.
So I won't even bother contacting them if something did fail.
I'm going higher with my valve and shower head too.
My concern is getting the valve installed to the exact depth that it needs to be so that it will be flush with the tile.
After reading and watching a bit more I think I understand the concept now and I can put a backer board piece on the studs to give me a better guide.
Some valves you need to be precise. Others not so much. They usually come with a plastic face plate that should be flush with the end result finished surface. Just read the instructions....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by monetYou make good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
I'm thinking the professionals bad mouth the Shark Bites because they are basically putting them out of a job and or business.
My worry is that Shark Bite has to be on the bottom of the list with options.
I suppose you are correct that most failures in any method is user error.
I'll be completely pissed off if I put this all together and one Shark Bite fails in 2 years and I have to rip everything out again.
And I do not believe in Bull-Shit Warranties.
So I won't even bother contacting them if something did fail.
I'm going higher with my valve and shower head too.
My concern is getting the valve installed to the exact depth that it needs to be so that it will be flush with the tile.
After reading and watching a bit more I think I understand the concept now and I can put a backer board piece on the studs to give me a better guide.
I was never a Shark bite fan. They are overpriced but they do have their purpose. They have been around long enough to be proven now. I could have soldered up all my shit but since I was using the shutoffs I just decided to go that way for my application entirely. I will also save back enough tile just because should a repair come up in the future.
Oh that's an idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
I could install a sort of emergency shut off valve to the shower incase of a leak so I can shut the main supply off to the bathroom only.
I figure if it does leak, I won't know till the subfloor and drywall ceiling is ruined anyways.
I'm getting sold on the Shark Bites more with your experience and other testimonials.
I guess I will gamble and it is much easier just clicking everything together.
The cost of Shark Bites are nothing compared to Labor Costs of Professionals.
My main worry is a leak but I'm guessing my mortar bed and or tile will mold and leak before the Shark Bites do.
I can see how easy all this installation is in my mind but when I go to do it I realize I don't know what the Fuck I am doing.
I did demo the bathroom, cut the subfloor, cut the abs pipe and change two abs drain pipes and install blocking with new subfloor so I'm not completely incompetent.
But I'm the first to admit it is all a total hack job.
I have to give some credit to my wife as well as she has helped with many things so far.
Ok, so that is how he probably chose his VCT handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
I’m going to mention a N.Y. trainer’s name here who I know is dead to see if Regnis remembers him. I never did any business with him or even know him. Although, I could pick him out of a line-up. LOL
Do you remember Oscar Barrera? This was the king of the claiming horse games. He could claim a basement horse for like 15K. He would run him in another higher claiming race like for 18K in less than a week and win for fun. He did this time and time again. One of these mules won like 4 in a row after a claim.
Everyone was trying to figure out what cocktail he knew about that no one else did. Even the lab work being done (back then) couldn’t figure out what he was using. I know a trainer who even had spy get hired at his stables. He never saw anything unusual (or kept it to himself.) Plus he ended up staying in Oscar's stables.
We would bet on his clamed horses that ran right back all the time. He must have had a 75%-win record under those conditions. Of course, you would only bet a couple hundred on these type races with Oscar. It was always just a coin flip. Yet, it turned out to be a trusted +EV move. Talk about an AP move. LOL
I do think I remember eventually he was caught by NYRA for something. Don’t think they ever mentioned what he was fined for other than some type of substance. Don’t even remember exactly what happened but really didn’t care since I was in my own horse world.
So, Regnis, did you remember him?
Post more tonight.
Bingo, considering how detailed his horse industry knowledge is in his last couple of posts. 180 degrees from his regular one liners and wise cracks. Keystone should join in with Regnis and Bhole in the horse discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayOk, so that is how he probably chose his VCT handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
Uh-oh, I'm afraid of all the possible consequences that may happen if this horse racing topic continues for much longer. Kewpie doll must be the center of attention, an obsession that must be maintained like any addict. This is a serious situation developing, you cannot go from being the main VCT non-inspiration head case who goes daily from casino to casino floating in like a butterfly and comes out stinging like a bee to just completely being ignored cold turkey. Everyone should be seriously alarmed if this new topic does not dry up quickly. The possibilities are endless no different than someone who is completely cut off from drugs. A sort of you know who I am mentality, that must flurish or else.
Don’t be a fucking asshole. Even KJ admitted that there must be some validity to BH’s claims. This could potentially be the best thread in a long time on here. Take your petty complaints about KJ to another thread, there are plenty to choose from.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Absolutely. Laz’ s little bro. I remember after he first got caught with whatever his magic potion was, it then was months before he won again, and then never at the same percentages.
Those were pre simulcast and computer days so the racing was more local unless you had a good bookie.
I assume Oscar iii who is mediocre at best is his grandson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The BozDon’t be a fucking asshole. Even KJ admitted that there must be some validity to BH’s claims. This could potentially be the best thread in a long time on here. Take your petty complaints about KJ to another thread, there are plenty to choose from.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
I guess bathroom remodeling in the thread is perfectly fine with you.
Are Entry Fees something that are paid by higher or lower quality horses? A quick search tells me that Entry Fees have something to do with trials? Is that like a time trial run for the horses to know what horses to put that one up against? On that note, what are the other criteria for deciding what horses are going to race what other horses? Does the owner or trainer have any say in what specific race a horse runs?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
It makes sense that, the older a horse gets, the less it sells for. What does it mean for an animal to be an allowance horse? I assume if a horse is performing extremely well it might sell for more money as it approaches the peak of its career; is that what happened with the allowance horse you sold for 50k? How much did that one cost when you went in on it...or how much did it cost before you went in on it if it had already been purchased by then?Quote:
I always had 3 horses. By the time I got out they were not the same 3 I started with. If one got claimed, my trainer and I would eventually claim another one or buy one privately. So, when I did get out at that time one of the horses cost $15K sold privately for $11K, another cost $18K sold privately $16K, another cost $20K sold privately for $11K. The allowance horse I partner with when we finally did sell, we sold privately for $50K.
What are the Entry Requirements? Does it just have to do with trial times or do previous racing results come into play at all? It sounds like you decided to keep your horses up north deliberately to race against weaker horses rather than sending them down to Florida to race against the good ones---that's a sweet AP move it sounds like to me!Quote:
Other than the allowance horse the other three were considered in the basement claiming type horses for Belmont. The quality of horse can get much worse at many other tracks like Rockingham. In the winter most of the real good horses will ship to other tracks like Florida. That’s when my horses were in many races at Aqueduct. The cards in the winter are usually loaded with shit quality horses. We could usually meet entry requirements for each of them like once every two weeks. Some times every week. When the good ones came back, we had to wait to find a spot for them where they would be eligible and competitive.
You mentioned that you lost money on the horses overall and owned three horses at any one time. I'm sure you kept detailed financial records for all of these horses. How many total individual horses did you end up owning solo and how many would you say, of those, were net profitable?Quote:
Purses were all over the place. I’d say could be from $25K to $45K (basement bracket) depending on the race being offered. First got 60% second got 20% forgot the rest but I think they paid up to 5th. If you came in the money you had to pay 10% to your trainer and 10% to the jockey on any winnings. You also had to pay the jockey $100.00 dollars just to ride your horse win or lose. Some were even more. Remember this was mid 1980’s. Also, if you won you always took care of the barn workers with tips. It’s pretty much a lose, lose situation unless of course you won big purses or often.
Why would they die? Thanks for answering all my questions! Can these horses not be sold to someone who just likes horses, in general, not for the purpose of racing? Can they not be kept with non-racing horses?Quote:
Without cashing out on the occasional big pay offs which I’ll get into later I don’t think I would have lasted a year.
Claiming horses don’t go to auction. They either get claimed, sold privately, or die.
I’m reading Missions post trying to answers some questions. Feel like I’m all over the place. The claiming horse game needs more explaining. I had enough for tonight. Really tired. Get to more tomorrow night and over the weekend.
How does this usually work? I assume he gimmicks the time to make the horse appear to be slower than it actually is, then it ends up having longer odds against it, at which point people can pile on Win, Place or Show bets if they know the horse is better than represented? Do they wait until it's almost race time to get those bets down to prevent it from looking like a bunch of money is coming in on it?Quote:
The clocker in the morning records the name of the horse identified by lip tattoos if needed, what type of training is being done, and the time the horse did whatever in. This information gets posted in Racing Forums to help handicappers figure how a horse is doing. Certain trainers are close with the timer and he’ll print a fake time to throw handicappers off. Of course, he’s in on it. It gets much worse than that. They will even post the name of one of the trainers better horses to hide how well a cheaper horse is doing getting tuned up for a pay day.
It's time for some more questions. I apologize for all of my questions, but I've only bet on one individual horserace in my entire life, and I won massively, so I'll never bet on another again so that I can legitimately say I am a lifetime winner. My strategy, apparently, was terrible...I made $2 bets on several different horses, all to WIN, because they all had long odds against them and I reasoned that there was a good chance at least one of those would win as opposed to one of the other two. The funny thing is that the odds changed from what was in the book (which I didn't know could happen at the time!) and one of my horses winning would have still lost overall. Either way, the longest shot one, Forward Bliss, came in and had a return of $140+ on a $2 bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
So, this is interesting, but I'm never betting again because I don't want to risk not being a lifetime winner.
1.) What does being a runner consist of?
2.) What sorts of things does a handicapper take into consideration? I'm sure times and recent results...so what percentage would you put on what each factor contributes to the handicapping? How do you handicap for a horse that has never run in an actual race before?
3.) Were you a horse-racing specific attorney?
4.) Nice angle on the roided up horses! You basically got to bet with the same information they were using without actually being the one doing the bad deed...nice! Could they, in theory, have had anything on you for knowing about it and not reporting it, or was it fine since you never actually saw it happen?
5.) What does, "Depth," of the track mean? Are there holes in the track?
I see that you have a passion for racing. Do you like the aspect that so much of it is gimmicked, or would you prefer just pure racing?
Nice work on the betting/AP move! That's awesome! I like this, along with what Regnis said, in that you guys are just taking advantage of the information that you know without actually perpetrating the bad acts yourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
That's a shame. We get one long time troll finally contributing something positive that some members are interested in and another troll steps in to take his place trolling. And that is all you are now BoSox, just another troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Regardless of who is or isn't a troll or trolling, may I please just politely ask if you guys can find it within yourselves to find a different thread for any discussion not related to horse racing?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but this thread kicks ass and I'd hate to risk it devolving into an unrelated argument.
Are you trying to say they don't remodel bathrooms at the track??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
Obviously, I emphatically refuse to comply with your request.
BoSox and RINO aka Turncoat Vaccinated Boz can go Fuck themselves!
This isn't a Fucking Horse Racing Thread.
This thread is a thread about contributing to the forum.
That leaves this thread open to any and all discussion that contributes.
And for that matter... Why the Fuck is it located in the Las Vegas Section??
Bosox should go dump some tea off of a boat or something. Maybe that'll make him feel better.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJThat's a shame. We get one long time troll finally contributing something positive that some members are interested in and another troll steps in to take his place trolling. And that is all you are now BoSox, just another troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Sadly Monet--they don't. We still don't even have hot water in the bathrooms at the race tracks here.Quote:
Originally Posted by monetAre you trying to say they don't remodel bathrooms at the track??Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
Obviously, I emphatically refuse to comply with your request.
BoSox and RINO aka Turncoat Vaccinated Boz can go Fuck themselves!
This isn't a Fucking Horse Racing Thread.
This thread is a thread about contributing to the forum.
That leaves this thread open to any and all discussion that contributes.
And for that matter... Why the Fuck is it located in the Las Vegas Section??
1. A "Runner" ran the bets out to the track for players or bookies. It of course evolved into a risky semi-bookmaking as we wound up holding the $ rather than taking it to the track on many occasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146It's time for some more questions. I apologize for all of my questions, but I've only bet on one individual horserace in my entire life, and I won massively, so I'll never bet on another again so that I can legitimately say I am a lifetime winner. My strategy, apparently, was terrible...I made $2 bets on several different horses, all to WIN, because they all had long odds against them and I reasoned that there was a good chance at least one of those would win as opposed to one of the other two. The funny thing is that the odds changed from what was in the book (which I didn't know could happen at the time!) and one of my horses winning would have still lost overall. Either way, the longest shot one, Forward Bliss, came in and had a return of $140+ on a $2 bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
So, this is interesting, but I'm never betting again because I don't want to risk not being a lifetime winner.
1.) What does being a runner consist of?
2.) What sorts of things does a handicapper take into consideration? I'm sure times and recent results...so what percentage would you put on what each factor contributes to the handicapping? How do you handicap for a horse that has never run in an actual race before?
3.) Were you a horse-racing specific attorney?
4.) Nice angle on the roided up horses! You basically got to bet with the same information they were using without actually being the one doing the bad deed...nice! Could they, in theory, have had anything on you for knowing about it and not reporting it, or was it fine since you never actually saw it happen?
5.) What does, "Depth," of the track mean? Are there holes in the track?
I see that you have a passion for racing. Do you like the aspect that so much of it is gimmicked, or would you prefer just pure racing?
2. I couldn't even begin to describe the factors that go into handicapping. However, my specialty was always breeding so I wager on races where breeding, rather than past performance, is key. Also, like anything else, experience. In any field, experience or knowledge is significant.
3. It was never my primary field. But I knew everyone at the track, from the tellers, to the players, to the trainers, to the management, and everyone would greet me with "hey counselor". So I accidentally picked up those kinds of cases that way.
4. Doubtful but was a constant fear. We stopped talking by phone because we suspected his was tapped.
5. We have dirt and turf races. On the turf, they either cut the grass or roll the grass as part of the maintenance. Therefore the depth of the course--i.e. the length of the grass-can have a big effect. Also, the amount of watering and other maintenance have an effect. Similarly, on the dirt, the depth of the dirt-i.e. how many inches of dirt over the bottom base. If it is very hard, speed will hold. If it is thicker, closers are more prone to win.
6. I would love for the racing to be "pure", but it will never happen. Too easy to cheat. It would be a hard adjustment for us handicappers as we have had to incorporate the cheating into our analysis for so long.
I vote to make this the VCT official bath remodeling thread......you are being a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
Why don’t you and your boyfriend ask Dan to start a Better Homes and Gardens section in here so you can chit chat all day about your projects and recipes. Or better yet, meet up in person and then you can plumb eachotherQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenI vote to make this the VCT official bath remodeling thread......you are being a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
MaxPen, while I agree with you on many/most things, I have to say, you and monet are being kind of ignorant on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
This is blackhole's thread and while the topic has shifted from his original topic, I am not sure if someone can hijack their own thread, so I am guessing that is ok. And I know I am pleased to see blackhole participate with something of interst to a number of members. My own interest is minor as the few experiences I had with horse racing occured when I was 11 or 12, but again, there seems to be a number of members interested and participating.
You and Monet and your bathroom remodeling posts while of interest to you two, are more than anything a way of you saying YOU are not interested in that thread. You have done this with at least 2 threads and it really is kind of ignorant. If you really want to have a thread and discussion on remodeling bathroom, you should start one.
Just hijacking threads because you are not interested in the topic IS against the rules. I know rules aren't enforced here, but even more than that, it goes against common decency if other members are enjoying and participating on a specific topic. I know this forum is about trolling and all more than anything else, but it is disappointing to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJMaxPen, while I agree with you on many/most things, I have to say, you and monet are being kind of ignorant on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
This is blackhole's thread and while the topic has shifted from his original topic, I am not sure if someone can hijack their own thread, so I am guessing that is ok. And I know I am pleased to see blackhole participate with something of interst to a number of members. My own interest is minor as the few experiences I had with horse racing occured when I was 11 or 12, but again, there seems to be a number of members interested and participating.
You and Monet and your bathroom remodeling posts while of interest to you two, are more than anything a way of you saying YOU are not interested in that thread. You have done this with at least 2 threads and it really is kind of ignorant. If you really want to have a thread and discussion on remodeling bathroom, you should start one.
Just hijacking threads because you are not interested in the topic IS against the rules. I know rules aren't enforced here, but even more than that, it goes against common decency if other members are enjoying and participating on a specific topic. I know this forum is about trolling and all more than anything else, but it is disappointing to see.
MaxPen, that is gratitude for you, one of the few guys who often backed him.:)
Fuck off BoSox. Has nothing to do with graditude. I like MaxPen and agree with most of what he posts, but this is hijacking, just because he has no interest, just as you are repeatedly doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
What you are trying to do with this comment is divide. You want to push everything and everyone into teams and then try to divide those that are not with you on the only thing you do here now, troll me. There is something reaally wrong with you.
But I am not going to respond to your trolling in this thread as that is contributing to YOUR hijacking. Take your obsessive trolling of me to some other thread.
Blackhole, Mission, Regnis, Boz and anyone else deserves to be able to have a thread talking about horse racing with out interruption from people that just want to troll. And that has nothing to do with how I feel about anybody. That is the rules of the freaking forum.
Monet is such a passive-aggressive tool, and MP is along for the ride.
Monet feels that yakking about home improvement constitutes viable contribution to this board, as keystone requested he contribute something of value.
That's like saying it's OK to rape a nymphomaniac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJFuck off BoSox. Has nothing to do with graditude. I like MaxPen and agree with most of what he posts, but this is hijacking, just because he has no interest, just as you are repeatedly doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Well, you certainly cleared that one right up.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I usually don't give a rats ass about any kind of hijacking in general and find people are too anal about it (usual few suspects 1 or 2 guys in particular) I would classify this as an "unofficial semi hijack". It's not an official horse thread by any means, but it's obvious Monet has done this sort of thing on numerous occasions in the past, if he has no interest in the subject matter, or the topic is deflecting away from his narrative( sport picks was his primary go to accomplish this). The horse topic is flowing nicely and Blackhole is contributing positively for the first time that I can remember. Regnis an old original member, who rarely posts anymore is adding his expertise about horses in to the discussion. Mission covered almost all angles question wise( nicely done). Most people here I believe are interested and would like to see the topic continue to flow nicely. I'm surprised to see Max up in arms about it, but not surprised in the least about Monet involvement. Two of the best members here, that I agree with on most things but not in this grey situation. The clincher here is Monet history of doing this repeatedly. Im just calling it the way I see it, no matter who is involved, two elite posters in this case or if it were two junk posters, same summary on my behalf for what it's worth.
Its not everyday you get a grade 10 writer( myself) typing a semi marathon( watch out Mission and KJ !! ) AND a one line warrior writing a 12 line in depth analysis of what appears to be his niche. Add Blackhole's so far great contribution to this thread, needle in a haystack thread here, MASSIVE LONGSHOT :)
My Adventure and Virgin Experience in Bathroom Remodeling is 100x more difficult compared to picking horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Stay Tuned for more Reports.
Most of you are jealous because you don't have to Remodel a Bathroom or Two.
As a matter of fact I am jealous of the members who live in Hotels and or Apartments.
Room, Maid and Maintenance Service is the Bee's Knees but when you get married and own a house you have to do these sort of things.
This information will be valuable to some members in this so called VCT Community.
I will continue to fight the good fight and ignore objections.
Objection Pun intended... get it!
Always bet on any horse named Paul Revere.
Ozzy just mad at me because I refuse to hate on MDawg.
I still like Ozzy though... No hard feelings whatsoever.
I miss TP... haven't said hello in a few weeks... Hey TP... I watched 2 NetFlix movies last night based on Anime.
I never seen any Anime or heard of it.
Macaroni or Ruroni or something like that.
Too Bloody but the Origin Story was far better and a little darker.
Actually I only got though half of the Final but it doesn't seem near as good as the beginning story.
Very Easy to figure out from the get go but still enjoyed the ending and the music.
The CGI wasn't so terrible on this one.
Just my opinion here but I don't like the English Dubbing.
I prefer the original language and reading the subtitles.
Now all you other Fuckers...
I just woke up as I decided to take a long sleep.
Time to decide if I am going to gamble on these Shark Bites or not.
I don't think I can live with worrying about those Rubber O-Rings.
I'm going to Clamp the PEX instead.
I need to go back to the Big Box Stores and buy some Pipe Dope/Teflon Tape and some Fittings.
Get some PEX-A and take these Hexagon Tiles back and look for a square version.
Cut the drain hole out more and build a bench using wood.
Decide on a wood curb or a brick curb.
And figure out how much of a gap you leave for the backer board in the corners.
Frame the bottom sides in and decide if I want to use tar paper with chicken wire or just directly add the dry pack mud to the OSB.
Shit is difficult.
When I see a post that I don't find interesting, I don't read it, I just scroll down.
You Fuckers are so obsessive you read every word of every post and constantly complain to Dan Druff in PMs.
Sickening.
I am not going to ask Dan for shit. Nor am I going to whine like a little bitch to him. And I am definitely not going to play the "I am gonna tell daddy" game with you whiners over some stupid posts. I pretty much respond to whatever wherever.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneWhy don’t you and your boyfriend ask Dan to start a Better Homes and Gardens section in here so you can chit chat all day about your projects and recipes. Or better yet, meet up in person and then you can plumb eachotherQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenI vote to make this the VCT official bath remodeling thread......you are being a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
I don't give a fuck about organizational structure of some internet forum. Because I don't care about being able to dig up old posts to rehash a bunch of bullshit months and years later. Unlike a lot of you whiny ass bitches.
One thing good about this thread is it shows horse racers are like a pack of old women at the bingo hall. Nonstop whining and bitching.....RIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenI am not going to ask Dan for shit. Nor am I going to whine like a little bitch to him. And I am definitely not going to play the "I am gonna tell daddy" game with you whiners over some stupid posts. I pretty much respond to whatever wherever.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneWhy don’t you and your boyfriend ask Dan to start a Better Homes and Gardens section in here so you can chit chat all day about your projects and recipes. Or better yet, meet up in person and then you can plumb eachotherQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
I don't give a fuck about organizational structure of some internet forum. Because I don't care about being able to dig up old posts to rehash a bunch of bullshit months and years later. Unlike a lot of you whiny ass bitches.
One thing good about this thread is it shows horse racers are like a pack of old women at the bingo hall. Nonstop whining and bitching.....RIP
It was just a suggestion, don`t cry
One week ago they were all crying and calling blackhole every name in the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
This week they praise him and rejoice in his horse racing information.
Just a bunch of Flip Flop MotherFuckers who never stick to their ideals and guns.
Pretty Sick Chubbs.
Personally, I have never had one problem with blackhole.
He sticks it to me pretty hard and tears me down but I have always said nice things about blackhole.
I have no issue with him.
He stays true to form from what I can tell.
But its a Fucking Message Board that nobody really cares about.
Fuck Everyone!
Greetz old friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by monetMy Adventure and Virgin Experience in Bathroom Remodeling is 100x more difficult compared to picking horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Stay Tuned for more Reports.
Most of you are jealous because you don't have to Remodel a Bathroom or Two.
As a matter of fact I am jealous of the members who live in Hotels and or Apartments.
Room, Maid and Maintenance Service is the Bee's Knees but when you get married and own a house you have to do these sort of things.
This information will be valuable to some members in this so called VCT Community.
I will continue to fight the good fight and ignore objections.
Objection Pun intended... get it!
Always bet on any horse named Paul Revere.
Ozzy just mad at me because I refuse to hate on MDawg.
I still like Ozzy though... No hard feelings whatsoever.
I miss TP... haven't said hello in a few weeks... Hey TP... I watched 2 NetFlix movies last night based on Anime.
I never seen any Anime or heard of it.
Macaroni or Ruroni or something like that.
Too Bloody but the Origin Story was far better and a little darker.
Actually I only got though half of the Final but it doesn't seem near as good as the beginning story.
Very Easy to figure out from the get go but still enjoyed the ending and the music.
The CGI wasn't so terrible on this one.
Just my opinion here but I don't like the English Dubbing.
I prefer the original language and reading the subtitles.
Now all you other Fuckers...
I just woke up as I decided to take a long sleep.
Time to decide if I am going to gamble on these Shark Bites or not.
I don't think I can live with worrying about those Rubber O-Rings.
I'm going to Clamp the PEX instead.
I need to go back to the Big Box Stores and buy some Pipe Dope/Teflon Tape and some Fittings.
Get some PEX-A and take these Hexagon Tiles back and look for a square version.
Cut the drain hole out more and build a bench using wood.
Decide on a wood curb or a brick curb.
And figure out how much of a gap you leave for the backer board in the corners.
Frame the bottom sides in and decide if I want to use tar paper with chicken wire or just directly add the dry pack mud to the OSB.
Shit is difficult.
When I see a post that I don't find interesting, I don't read it, I just scroll down.
You Fuckers are so obsessive you read every word of every post and constantly complain to Dan Druff in PMs.
Sickening.
I don't know if it qualifies as Anime, but I enjoy the old Star Blazers cartoon series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6LFkMniuTk).
Same with Cowboy Bebop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL-D9LrFJd4).
Does Speed Racer count ? Fuck all that was a good series.
Honestly, I have never watched Anime nor had any interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
I grew up on cartoons and Speed Racer, Chim Chim and Racer X was Very Good Fun.
They had a knack for leaving you on a cliff hanger in most episodes.
I enjoyed the corny movie they made as well.
I thought it was very creative and different.
You like John Goodman so that was a plus.
I only watched this new movie to take a break and read up on it afterwards that it was based off of anime.
Not bad as I have watched just about everything so it was nice to have something new.
I like subtitles.
I like Japanese Movies.
The "Final" Movie was way more cartoonish or videogameish compared to the Beginning Movie.
The Beginning Movie had more of a story and dealt with internal conflicts of love/hate or good/evil.
Very Obvious and Simple movie to figure out so that could be a negative.
Sort of reminded me of the first John Wick Movie but with Swords and in Japan and they threw in a love story with a woman instead of a dog.
Since you like John Wick, I would imagine you would like this Roni Movie.
I don't think that is anything most of us didn't know. Horse players are typical degenerate gamblers. Most are playing a losing -EV game and trying to come up with something that isn't there that will enable them to be a winner. And when they don't, there is the usual degenerate gambler bitching and moaning. I am sorry if that offends any of you that call yourselves horse players. There is just a different mindset between gamblers and players that play with an advantage and horse players are without a doubt on the wrong side of that divide.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
What I did learn from reading this thread that I didn't know is that there is not much distinction between horse player and horse owners, at least at the lower end. Maybe the high end it truely is a sport of kings, but at the lower end seems horse owners are just an extention of horse players.
I am sure my take will offense some, sorry about that. Just the way I see it. AND it explains some things with at least one member. That is all I am going to say. :cool:
LOL...what you don`t seem to understand is that there are people that made/make their fortunes elsewhere and don`t depend on gambling to feed themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJI don't think that is anything most of us didn't know. Horse players are typical degenerate gamblers. Most are playing a losing -EV game and trying to come up with something that isn't there that will enable them to be a winner. And when they don't, there is the usual degenerate gambler bitching and moaning. I am sorry if that offends any of you that call yourselves horse players. There is just a different mindset between gamblers and players that play with an advantage and horse players are without a doubt on the wrong side of that divide.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
What I did learn from reading this thread that I didn't know is that there is not much distinction between horse player and horse owners, at least at the lower end. Maybe the high end it truely is a sport of kings, but at the lower end seems horse owners are just an extention of horse players.
I am sure my take will offense some, sorry about that. Just the way I see it. AND it explains some things with at least one member. That is all I am going to say. :cool:
Thanks for the recos Monet, much appreciated. I agree, the live action Speed Racer was quite enjoyable. I just watched the Long Halloween Part I and II Batman cartoon movies, however I didn't mention them until now because I just thought there were mediocre, at best, so I can't really recommend them.Quote:
Originally Posted by monetHonestly, I have never watched Anime nor had any interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
I grew up on cartoons and Speed Racer, Chim Chim and Racer X was Very Good Fun.
They had a knack for leaving you on a cliff hanger in most episodes.
I enjoyed the corny movie they made as well.
I thought it was very creative and different.
You like John Goodman so that was a plus.
I only watched this new movie to take a break and read up on it afterwards that it was based off of anime.
Not bad as I have watched just about everything so it was nice to have something new.
I like subtitles.
I like Japanese Movies.
The "Final" Movie was way more cartoonish or videogameish compared to the Beginning Movie.
The Beginning Movie had more of a story and dealt with internal conflicts of love/hate or good/evil.
Very Obvious and Simple movie to figure out so that could be a negative.
Sort of reminded me of the first John Wick Movie but with Swords and in Japan and they threw in a love story with a woman instead of a dog.
Since you like John Wick, I would imagine you would like this Roni Movie.
I do understand that. And I have no problem with recreational gamblers. I couldn't do what I do without them. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
But most horse players I wouldn't catagorize as recreational anything and that includes my own grandfather. The guys that used to spend every afternoon (or evening) at the track and now-a-days it is not AT the track but at the sports books betting horses, are NOT recreational gamblers. Just spend some time in any sports book in the afternoon when the races are going off and listen to these guys. South Point is a good chocie because they have a seperate horse race section. Same guys every day and these are not recreational gamblers. They are degen horse players.
Yeah Ive spent many afternoons in race books in Vegas when I visit. And yeah I`ve seen some real idiots yelling and acting the fool. Also seen quite a few idiots playing blackjack berating dealers and other players, cussing, and acting like their whole net worth is at stake on the current shoeQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJI do understand that. And I have no problem with recreational gamblers. I couldn't do what I do without them. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
But most horse players I wouldn't catagorize as recreational anything and that includes my own grandfather. The guys that used to spend every afternoon (or evening) at the track and now-a-days it is not AT the track but at the sports books betting horses, are NOT recreational gamblers. Just spend some time in any sports book in the afternoon when the races are going off and listen to these guys. South Point is a good chocie because they have a seperate horse race section. Same guys every day and these are not recreational gamblers. They are degen horse players.
Well yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.
From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.
If I had known blackhole was involved in horse racing I would have known why he has problems with advantage players. The only thing that would wreck you more is using a progressive VP strategy.
I also really understand the broken down shoe projections now. The South Point has a lot of them.....RIP
Where is that like button Mission was advocating for? LIKE!Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
And I am not saying this to be mean. My problems with blackhole are well documented. But most of have have known that he has a problem with players that win, but weren't sure of the details or reasons. This sheds light on that. :rolleyes:
You`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is inQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWell yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.
From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.
Everyone that claims they don't know if they are up or down are in the same boat as the I am about even crowd. They are down and a lot of them are completely wrecked.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneYou`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is inQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWell yes. And I need those idiots at the blackjack table also to do what I do. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
But here is the difference. There is a bonafide, legitimate mathematical way to play blackjack at an advantage, several actually, but lets just talk card counting. But with horse racing, similar to sports betting, I was under the impression that maybe there were a very slim number of players that were good enough handipapers to make money and 99+ percent were losers. But thanks to this thread, I have learned there really can't be any successful horse handipappers, because you all are telling us, the numbers in the racing form are all fake and inaccurate, the workout times fake and inaccurate, the race times fake and inaccurate, because so many races were fixed. So what is the basis for handicapping.
From the sounds of this thread, you can win, IF you have been cut into the loop as to what race is fixed and what horse is predetermined to win. A good handicapper is going to come up with the best horse based on the data avaialble, but you guys are claiming that data is falsified and inaccurate. And even if the "good" handicapper comes up with the best horse, doesn't mean much if the fix is in for some other horse to win that day.
Mission, I just read your second batch of questions. I didn’t even get through the first.
Just a couple things since I really need some rest after another full day in the office with my boys.
Claimers in New York usually bottom out at around 10K. Off tracks like Jersey, Philly, New Hampshire, etc. they get as cheap as a couple thousand. Now, claimers could go as high as 100K. Another words if you wanted to claim any claiming horse at any level and already are a registered owner at that track you would need to provide proof of funds before the race goes off. If not, you would need a certified check along with a bunch of documents.
It’s very risky to claim horses out of a race. If you’re the only person with a claim on any one horse and approved the horse is yours after the race. There’s a whole other process if there were more than one person trying to claim the same horse. It’s always better to buy private where your trainer and vet could review the horse first. There is much more to it but that is the primary beginning.
Almost every owner is not doing well and you usually could find some good deals privately as a result of desperation. Obviously, owners capable of winning million dollar plus purses speaks for itself.
Most horse owning is a money pit, but without it you could never get close enough to the inside for those almost guaranteed huge winning / exacta tickets. Did I say huge? These bets don’t take place every day, but usually often enough to take a big piece of the burden off your back. Our stable was very close with 2 other stables. No doubt the three trainers were colluding. That’s a lot of different horses. For the record the jockeys do whatever their told or they’ll have no career.
More another day.
Haha, I could have sworn I just said I`ve never kept any sort of records and I`m about as far away from a "professional" gambler that there is. If it makes you feel better and more secure about yourself I`ll agree with you. You and Kewl J, Axel, et al are the only winners, and myself, Blackhole et al are degenerate loser gamblers that are broke on the street. There, that was easy. Hopefully you feel better. I don`t really know you other than you being obsessed with Rob`s Newell business and Mickey squirting on your head for the last yearQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenEveryone that claims they don't know if they are up or down are in the same boat as the I am about even crowd. They are down and a lot of them are completely wrecked.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneYou`re guesstimate probably isn`t far off. I would say the number of losing horse players is well into the 90+ percentage rate. It`s a very tough game to beat on a consistent basis, especially if you`re an undisciplined moron. I really couldn`t tell you if I am up or down lifetime. Like I said, I don`t depend on it for anything other than I enjoy it so I`ve never really kept any records. I will tell you that I have had numerous wins that are pretty well up there and I know Regnis has too. That can make up for alot of days when your hunches are wrong or whatever "fix" is inQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Wanted to add one more thing tonight. Every owner wants to win every race any of their horses are in. There are certain cases when you know your horse is out of its league, but needed to burn out a early front runner to help the horse you bet on cross the wire first. You treat that race as just another training day for your horse, yet you get to go to the window and pick up some cash for your willing participation.
Blackhole and I talking about cheating and race fixing may have given some the wrong impression. First of all, race fixing usually involves multiple trainers and owners "stiffing" their horses to wind up with set result so that the trifectas and other gimmick bets pay huge. This takes a lot of collusion--think the Black Sox Scandal. While this does happen it is not that prevalent. On the other hand, there is probably only a small number of races in which illegal drugs or other supplements are not being used. I don't consider that race fixing--the trainer is trying to win at any cost. While the use of drugs may effect the outcome, it is different than trying to lose.
I agree with Key that the percentage of losing horse players is extremely high. I do not agree with Kewl's assessment that they are all losers and non-professionals based upon what he sees at the race book. There are a lot of pros, many way better than I will ever be, and they for the most part are quiet and keep to themselves. They also keep their opinions to themselves or their group. The loudmouths that you see at the race book are exactly what you think all horseplayers are. However, you are not seeing the pros. I socialize at the track but I don't discuss my picks other than with one or two friends who rely on me. I also try to avoid hearing the loudmouth's picks because I then find myself doing the Richard Dreyfuss and taking myself off of horses that I like just because I know the idiot touting that horse is a loser. So yes--the losers you see in the race book are just that.
Kewl--the inaccuracies in the workouts etc. is probably overstated. Yes they exist. But any pro does not rely on those numbers. They either keep their own charts and/or watch every race. I know what I see--I don't need the racing form to tell me. I no longer keep my own charts because I am getting too old for the time that it takes. But I have decades of charts in organized boxes in my basement. I do try to watch every race but that also takes a ton of time. That is a reason to limit the number of tracks or races that one plays. But please don't have the misconception that we are all losers and that you can't beat the game. There are many doing just that.
I'm not like you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
You are the Asshole who thinks you deserve to wear 6,000 dollar sweaters as you walk around killing homeless people with a baseball bat to the head.
If that isn't bad enough, you made a career out of destroying peoples lives by playing both sides of the field, destroying the covenant and sanctity of marriage.
See You In HELL!
Yesterday you said you were blocking me.
Just want to set the records straight for the assholes that are taking a little inside information about horse racing and coming to the conclusion that the entire racing program is rigged.
Yes, there is a limited amount of cheating and collusion just like any other sport when possible. There are about 100 different horses running every day at each track that offer it all over the world.
To come to the conclusion that everything is fixed just exposes the stupidity of some of the confirmed assholes that post here.
I would also suspect that they are envious not ever being part of such a select few capable of such +EV information. The math for this type of information is about 98% +EV guaranteed instantly. Compare it to 0.5% or 1.5% over a very long time. It’s all about the math, right? It becomes obvious why they are envious.
This stuff is out of assholes like Kewlj’s and MaxPads paygrade. Of course, they will take every opportunity to attack me. You can’t blame them. But this is a subject where with every post they make about it, they’ll expose just how fucking stupid they really are. Something I’ve been trying to tell everyone in the past.
I suspect a great deal more of stupidity is on the horizon. Wait for it....
In an effort to answer all of Mission’s questions, I think Regnis should step in if he’s reading and help out with the breeding and auctions of yearling’s kind of stuff. I certainly remember all the cheating stuff (or most of it) but it was 35 years ago and many details have faded.
Here is a good story. Not about cheating but having inside information.
A very classy expensive horse who won many small stake races suddenly began to tail off. It happens with horses that start putting on years. The horse always still trained like the champ he always was, but when put into a race he would start off like expected but always quit at the top of the stretch almost back to last.
They never were able to find any problem with him and took the approach of just tailing off. So, they dropped him down in company to 100K allowance. Once again same outcome. They dropped him down to 70K allowance. Once again same outcome. By now the public lost interest in him and he would go off at crazy odds. They dropped him down into 50K allowance. Same result but in the stable they noticed a drop of blood. They immediately did an endoscopic exam and realized he was a bleeder. A horse that bleeds grow some kind of shit around its lungs that pop and start bleeding blocking how they could breathe under stress. They did this exam in the past but everything showed negative. Plus, he never bled enough to notice.
So, now they treated him for the bleeding problem. They use drugs like Lasix and Bute to stop it. I don’t think they are allowed to run on those drugs anymore or they have to be out of the blood stream before a race.
Once all fixed the trainer was keeping the horse in 50K company. He said “they know when they win and are in front and wanted to get him familiar with that feeling again.” I’m like “sure, whatever you say” Me and a friend went to the track for that race. Sure enough he goes off at over 20 to 1 which sadly was a big drop from the last few races. He lost his last 4 races over 50 lengths combined. I put everything on him only to win. Felt there was no need to waste money on place or show money. Was instead heavy on straight cold exacters.
The race was 7 Panels long and at Belmont they were coming out of the Shute. From far outside he runs to the lead by 4 lengths the whole back-stretch. Turning for home about 3 horses catch up to him about even with the jockey. I’m panicking thinking he’s quitting again. The jockey lets him loose and he won by 18 lengths never getting hit with the whip even once. The horses that came in second and third were the two horses I had cold exactas with. Between the track and bookie that was one of my biggest paydays in that game.
The following week he came in second in a stake race at Saratoga paying $26.00 dollars for place. Another big payday, this time backing my win bet.
That’s real inside information and not cheating.
Mission-I will try to give you a little more info on some of these questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
1. Entry fees are primarily for stakes races--the higher level horses and purses. In thoroughbred racing, we don't really have time trials. That is more for quarter-horses and i think some standardbreds. Otherwise, an owner/trainer needs to know where his horse will fit talent wise and run his horse at the appropriate level. You can't have big eyes. Run them where they will be competitive.
2. Most races, particularly at the small lower-level tracks, are claiming races. That means that other qualified owners can claim a horse from that race. At the major tracks like Saratoga, Del Mar, etc., there are only a few claiming races. At the shit tracks like Thistle Downs, Fan Duels, or any of the little slot funded tracks, they are mostly claiming races with a few allowance races and an isolated stake race here and there. As Black stated, at the good tracks, the claiming price can be as much as $100,000. At the small slot tracks, they can be as low as $2,500 or even less. Anything under $10,000 they are pretty much broken down. From 10,000 to $25,000 there is some talent but a lot of minor injuries or problems and usually a lot of drugs. Anything higher, you have some talent and usually minor issues, or the formerly good horse who has lost a step or two but still has heart.
3. Allowance races usually are better than the cheaper claimers, but, depending on the allowance level, may not be as good as the higher claimers. In an allowance race, there are conditions set by the racing secretary for qualification to run in the race. There are endless conditions that can be written, and a good racing secretary will write a condition specifically to get a horse a race often times. But the standard progression is a Maiden race, which is for horses that have never won a race. Then the next allowance race would be for horses that have not won 1 race other than a maiden race or claimer. next would be for non-winners of 2, etc. etc. In an allowance race, your horse cannot be claimed. Allowance races may also have a condition that gives a weight break to a horse that hasn't won in 180 days or some other condition.
4. You asked why horses die. It is sad but historically there was no retirement program for race horses. Some can be used as outriders at the track; some can be pets. But the thoroughbred in general is a high strung mean SOB and does not play well with others. Too many wind up in the glue factory or as horse meat in countries where that is legal. It costs money to care for and feed an old broken down thoroughbred. It seems sad when you see an old broken down formerly talented horse still running at 12 years old for $2,500 at some bush track, but it is better than most of the alternatives. There are now some organizations that try to give these horses a home, but not enough. So essentially they die from neglect when they are done racing. If you are ever in Lexington, KY go to Old Friends Farm which is a charitable organization that takes old horses and cares for them. They even have a few Derby horses there. Take the tour. You will see my wife's name on many paddocks and fences as I am a long time contributor. Of course, nothing is ever in my name including my home, investments, etc.
Well, it is a message board. I don't pick sides when it comes to people. In my view, everyone is as good or as bad as whatever post I happen to be reading at that time. An interesting discussion with someone knowledgeable on a topic is just that---doesn't matter who the someone is or what they have to say on other topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Thanks, get some rest and I'll look forward to more answers when you get back! I guess one follow-up question to this part would be---on these infrequent exacta plays---how high can they get the rough probability of success? Would it be by way of stacking a race such that it consists entirely or horses trained by those three guys. Would the owners of the horses who are NOT going to win ever be told so they could get sizable bets on the horses who are going to win?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
They do the same thing in college football! Except, the lesser team gets paid on direct (percentage of gate) to come in and take their ass beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole