Slate article about whether or not Vegas is "dead"

Really, when you think about it, an advantage player like me and the casino model are not all that different. Just the advantage flips sides. As an (card counter) AP, I could go in guns blazing playing bigger limits, win more money over a shorter time at the expense of long-term winning, which there wouldn't be any because I wouldn't be allowed to play. OR I can figure out what limits that I can play, and be welcome back to play over and over guaranteeing long-term profits. (longevity)

Casinos have the same choice. For some inexplicable reason the business school idiots chose brief short-term increase in profits over longevity.

A perfect analogy is blackjack. 3-2 blackjack has a house advantage of about .5% depending on number of decks and exact rules. But that is if a player knows and is playing near perfect basic strategy which most players are not. So when you add in all the goofy ways players play (standing on 14 vs 9 because they dôn't want to break), the overall house advantage has to be well over 1%.
But that wasn't good enough for the pencil pushers. So they say if we go to 6-5 blackjack we can increase the house edge by 3 fold.

What they never considered is all the players that would refuse to play 6:5. Increase your profit a little bit, but lose half your customers is NOT a good business decision. And these same kinds of decisions have happened over and over and over on the casino floors over the last 20 years by people looking and thinking short-term instead of considering long-term results and effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

... resort fees are everywhere now,...

---

This surprised me: I rarely travel and stay in motels (other than my go-to tribal casino, Chinook Winds) and didn't realize the "infection" had spread.

Curious, I checked to see whether Chinook Winds, a tribal casino on the Oregon coast, charged a resort fee...they do indeed.

But unlike sin city the fee is negligible: were I to book a room for tonight the resort fee would be only $1.79.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

You should put your money where your keystroke is and go revitalize the Boulder strip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

You should put your money where your keystroke is and go revitalize the Boulder strip.

---

The Boulder strip? What is the boulder strip? Sam's Town, AZ Charlies and Boulder Station? East Cannery is gone. Are you including Longhorn?

These places have nothing to do with tourism. They are small-time local places for degenerates and drug addicts.

Or are you just trying to be humorous?

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

In Vegas, it used to be that if your room was comped you didn't pay resort fee. is that still the case or did they find a work around that?

Prior to moving to Vegas I made half dozen trips or so. It was early in my career, so I was still building BR and looking for cheap accommodations. And that was back in the days of really cheap Vegas rooms. So you would go to one of the hotel type sites and see the cheaper places like Strat, Circus Circus, Hooters, maybe Imperial Palace, listed for $19-$29 for a weeknight. (mon-thur). Then you go to the actual property and try to book and the price would come out to $45 with resort and other fees. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

The difference is of course that I am actually here, playing, and winning.

So the Vegas of today, and yesterday, work just fine for someone who has learned how to take advantage of all angles.

I prefer this sort of thing
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post967325
to the two story suites of the Spa Tower at the Nugget anyway, which was the best Weinberg could come up with back then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

---

South Point and Club Fortune are the two places I've been backed off in my life betting $60 or less. Club Fortune was $40 and they sent security....South Point I was really just trying to pass 10 minutes for the buffet to open and got $50 pushed out of the circle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Relax mate. You can play Jokers Wild if you want. I just wasn't sure if you were being serious referring to those properties as well anything other than what they are.

Jokers Wild. Is that your hangout? Is that where we will find you.

I played Jokers Wild exactly 1 time, coming up from Club Fortune. I was backed off in about 15 minutes. I had only slightly raised my bet. Was planning on going much higher. I almost forgot about that place and that incident.

Oh, Skyline is there too. :D I played several VP promotions at skyline (didn't every AP?) Never played BJ. I think their 2 or 3 tables were only open on saturdays. Pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted very long there either.

---

South Point and Club Fortune are the two places I've been backed off in my life betting $60 or less. Club Fortune was $40 and they sent security....South Point I was really just trying to pass 10 minutes for the buffet to open and got $50 pushed out of the circle.

---

I survived for a while at Club Fortune. Several months playing blackjack I think. My partner and I played Vp there for much longer. I think the reason I was able to survive longer playing blackjack is because I would play on Mondays when they had a +EV promo. I forget exactly what it was but something like a suited blackjack paid an extra 10-1. This allowed me to tone down my spread and extract some of my EV from the promotion which bought some longevity.

My backoff there was kind of funny as well. I sat down to play one day and the pit said "weren't you told you can't play BJ"?" I said no I wasn't. And the next day I received a phone call from the general manager telling me I could not play blackjack. He introduced himself and was polite and almost friendly. It was the only backoff I ever got by phone. And of course a back off at that place was basically an 86ing for blackjack. tables were only open 8 hours a day, and there was no going in on other shifts like I do after some of my backoffs.

Now South Point is a lot like El Cortez and for good reason. Same mentality. But there is something about both properties that few people know. They back people off more playing red than they do people playing the same spread green to light black. Makes no sense, but it is fact. I played for years at both places spreading green to light black. I got a little lucky at El Cortez in that there was a pit guy from jersey that took a liking to me. He was very tolerant of me. there was also a pit guy that hated me, but luckily he retired.

At BOTH locations I have seen someone at a table I was playing backed off when I wasn't. The other person was spreading red, I was spreading green to light black. About the same spreads. On one occasion, the person was seated right next to me. I though the backoff was directed at me for a second, until I realized.

Anyway, I think this reminiscing is kind of hijacking Druff's thread which is supposed to be about the decline of the strip. Just out of curiosity Dan Druff, if you are reading, do you ever play any off strip places like the stations or Boyds, or even smaller? Like a lot of tourist, I only see you write about the strip as if nothing exists outside the strip. I realize you are a poker guy and that is mainly on the strip (and Rio).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MDawg

The difference is of course that I am actually here, playing, and winning.

So the Vegas of today, and yesterday, work just fine for someone who has learned how to take advantage of all angles.

I prefer this sort of thing
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post967325
to the two story suites of the Spa Tower at the Nugget anyway, which was the best Weinberg could come up with back then.

---

Ah yes, you claim to be living The Life of Riley.

Who the hell was Riley, anyway?

And Kilroy: how did he get to so many places in WWII?

Mysteries without clues, just like your gambling tales...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

In Vegas, it used to be that if your room was comped you didn't pay resort fee. is that still the case or did they find a work around that?

Prior to moving to Vegas I made half dozen trips or so. It was early in my career, so I was still building BR and looking for cheap accommodations. And that was back in the days of really cheap Vegas rooms. So you would go to one of the hotel type sites and see the cheaper places like Strat, Circus Circus, Hooters, maybe Imperial Palace, listed for $19-$29 for a weeknight. (mon-thur). Then you go to the actual property and try to book and the price would come out to $45 with resort and other fees. :D

---

It depends on your card level. With CZR there is no resort fee or parking charge with a Diamond Card or higher.

With MGM Rewards there's no parking fee with their 2nd level card and no resort fee with the 3rd level card. I think it takes a 100K wager on slots to get to the 3rd level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

Best post in the thread.

Everything else---if you know what you're doing and have REALLY played in all on & off Strip casinos around LV, you dont need to be schooled on what the casinos are doing wrong or need to be doing right to get gamblers back, and you most certainly don't need a local low-level lowlife to be lecturing anybody about his concocted history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The solution is staring Vegas in the face, and they're not interested in trying it.

Keep hotel prices the same. Those are fine.

Drop resort fees. Just charge one set price. Even if you end up charging the same overall, people will appreciate it.

Remove the super expensive shit from rooms such as the $26 water bottles. Either make the prices reasonable, or remove them entirely.

Bring back room service. People love it in Vegas, and it's been eliminated in most places. These casinos don't understand that room service doesn't need to be about making money. It's about the whole Vegas experience. Couples in Vegas used to love to spend the evening at a nice dinner, gambling, maybe going to a show, going back to the room to fuck, and ordering room service while they relax. Now some casinos have all food service completely shut down in the late night hours, and room service is gone (or replaced by something awful like UberEats). It's a disgrace.

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

I agree about themes. I remember Luxor first time I visited Vegas. It was cool as fuck.

Some are kinda dopey though but meh. People with real money don't necessarily care that much about places all being upscale. Like.. ornate columns or whatever are neat but not necessarily what is going to have you come back a second time.

The casino in New Orleans had the coolest theme. Visited a couple of years ago and I coulld barely find any semblance of what i remembered. It was like one area of the ceiling hadn't quite been remodeled. Before that it was this jester/gothic thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Make the games more short-term beatable again. Not for APs (though we'd all love that here), but for the average Joe who runs above expectation. Make it so people have enough winning trips to where they can forget about the losing ones, and delude themselves into thinking they're "about even".

Make food prices, in general, reasonable. You don't need to bring back the $6.99 steak dinners, but bring the prices down to where they feel like a good value. Allow people to buy snacks and coffee at normal prices, not horrible marked up prices.

Give hosts power again. Use computers for guidance to hosts, but don't neuter hosts to where they almost completely lack power.

Make the entertainment prices reasonable.

Bring back themes. Everything has become way too generic. Stop worrying about being tacky. Most people like the tackiness of Vegas. Those that don't can stay at places like the Wynn.

Completely eliminate all hidden fees.

Stop charging for parking.



Do all of the above, and the casinos aimed at lower-middle and middle-class clientele will rebound.

Book it.

---

This sounds like the Vegas I fell in love with. late 1990's (although that was before I ever got to Vegas) and early/mid 2000's. Not the Mob run Vegas of the 80's , but the Vegas controlled by corporations but run by legit casino people that knew what they were doing. Before they turned things over to the Business school geniuses.

House edges should be small. 3-2 blackjack (less than 1% house edge), single or maybe double zero roulette, VP paying 99%, slots upper 90%. The kind of advantage where if a recreational (non-AP) player comes to town for a couple days and plays 8-10 hours they still have a decent chance to win maybe 3 out of 10 trips.

But the casinos couldn't have that. They want all the gambler's money in 2 hours and the recreational gambler almost never winning for a trip. They only saw the short-term of that. Never looked at what that would mean long-term as far as declining customer base.

THAT is the story of the business school rejects taking control.

---

Because if they were rejected from business school they slummed it working for casinos...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Really, when you think about it, an advantage player like me and the casino model are not all that different. Just the advantage flips sides. As an (card counter) AP, I could go in guns blazing playing bigger limits, win more money over a shorter time at the expense of long-term winning, which there wouldn't be any because I wouldn't be allowed to play. OR I can figure out what limits that I can play, and be welcome back to play over and over guaranteeing long-term profits. (longevity)

Casinos have the same choice. For some inexplicable reason the business school idiots chose brief short-term increase in profits over longevity.

A perfect analogy is blackjack. 3-2 blackjack has a house advantage of about .5% depending on number of decks and exact rules. But that is if a player knows and is playing near perfect basic strategy which most players are not. So when you add in all the goofy ways players play (standing on 14 vs 9 because they dôn't want to break), the overall house advantage has to be well over 1%.
But that wasn't good enough for the pencil pushers. So they say if we go to 6-5 blackjack we can increase the house edge by 3 fold.

What they never considered is all the players that would refuse to play 6:5. Increase your profit a little bit, but lose half your customers is NOT a good business decision. And these same kinds of decisions have happened over and over and over on the casino floors over the last 20 years by people looking and thinking short-term instead of considering long-term results and effect.

---

Man you do some real mental gymnastics to legitimize yourself as a gambler.

Now you could just be the casino!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcap

Jokers Wild dude! You're proving my point kinda. It was never pretty but ain't what it used to be either.

Whatever dude, I can call it the Boulder strip if I want. You don't have to referee everything about Las Vegas, who is and isn't a real player, what is or isn't for tourism, just fuck off pedant.

---

It isn't that he is a pedant it is that he has to try so hard to show everyone he's a real legit LV expertized AP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by accountinquestion

It isn't that he is a pedant it is that he has to try so hard to show everyone he's a real legit LV expertized AP.

---

Perhaps if most of the posters didn't give him shit about it then it wouldn't be an issue.

Sure, he's sensitive and thin-skinned, that's why he's so easy to troll.

But he pretty much is what he says he is.

KJ has been mugged at gunpoint, punched, and arm-broken while living dangerously in the casinos of LV. And all this while nursing a perilous heart condition and seeing his boyfriend tragically lost to AIDS*.

He is a true veteran. A battle-scarred survivor. And he has many green chips to bear witness to this.


*(anyone ever check the timeline on that btw? Feels like it's been essentially cured for a while now.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smurgerburger

KJ has been mugged at gunpoint, punched, and arm-broken while living dangerously in the casinos of LV. And all this while nursing a perilous heart condition and seeing his boyfriend tragically lost to AIDS*.

He is a true veteran. A battle-scarred survivor. And he has many green chips to bear witness to this.


*(anyone ever check the timeline on that btw? Feels like it's been essentially cured for a while now.)

---

Some of you people are really sick dudes!

My partner died of an aneurism. He no more had aids that you do smurgerburger. Shame on you.

And yes, after 16 years as a card counter AP in Las Vegas, I have some war stories. What I do, card counting has me dealing and engaging daily with casino personnel in the card counter cat and mouse "battles". Or at least it was that was for the first 12 years or so. Not really daily anymore. But yeah, I have my battle scars and war stories.

People have given me shit about everything I know about card counting. "Oh he plagiarized it" Dumbest comment ever. :rolleyes:

People have given me shit saying no one can count cards in Las Vegas for 16 years. I have shared some of how I have done that. techniques I have used to minimize heat and play within tolerated levels. BUT minimize doesn't mean without incident. I have been backed off I estimate 80 times. Maybe even 100. I share some of that and people scream about that too.

Look, I know some of you people don't want to believe I am what I am and do what I claim and have for 16 years in Vegas (21 years overall). Your bias and hate is about something that isn't even gambling related, as evident smurgerburgers post. Get the fuck over it!