Any Experience with M Resort $500 Loss Rebate?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Let me comment on this, piece by piece:



Why would anyone want to post on a public forum that they have had a winning year gambling? Let's just say I've had my share of success hitting in two years two $100,000 royals with limited play at the $25 denomination, and hitting the ALL at craps at least a dozen times with $25 in each position. You want me to post my profits and for what reason? No... I've never had a profitable year gambling.




I've quit when ahead and never had a 57K bankroll. I don't think anyone needs a 57K bankroll to quit when ahead.
What's ironic here, redietz, is that you quit when ahead which is the only reason you have a profit at video poker. At least, you told us you had a profit at video poker. And the ONLY way to have a profit is to quit when you're ahead. (Why are you having trouble with this when you do it yourself?)

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Originally Posted by redietz

In addition, neither of you can provide math professionals who agree with either of you regarding importance of win goals.

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Win goals are personal. Win goals will not make you win. Win goals only give you an exit point. You will not find a math professional who says otherwise. You raise a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by redietz

In addition, Rob can't provide any casino professional (not just gamblers) or other video poker author who agrees with him regarding his "systems."

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I can't either, except it makes sense to limit your losses and to quit when ahead. I do not follow his special plays and frankly I don't even understand his various systems.

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Originally Posted by redietz

And we should listen to either of you why? Because you're both handsome and charming?

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Thank you.

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This coming from the guy who gives intimate details of all his personal "relationships", marraiges, and divorces, but doesn`t want to disclose if he has a winning year gambling on a gambling board....I must say, that`s priceless :D

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Originally Posted by Biloxi Bill

This coming from the guy who gives intimate details of all his personal "relationships", marraiges, and divorces, but doesn`t want to disclose if he has a winning year gambling on a gambling board....I must say, that`s priceless :D

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Wow...this clown is really that clueless.

Obviously very little life experience, or even awareness...either a teen or a retard.

Alan, please type slower so the Donkey can keep up.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by Biloxi Bill

This coming from the guy who gives intimate details of all his personal "relationships", marraiges, and divorces, but doesn`t want to disclose if he has a winning year gambling on a gambling board....I must say, that`s priceless :D

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Wow...this clown is really that clueless.

Obviously very little life experience, or even awareness...either a teen or a retard.

Alan, please type slower so the Donkey can keep up.

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The donkey will keep it up...right in your wife`s mouth....just where she likes it :rolleyes:

Alan, you don't NEED a gambling bankroll of $57,200 to quit when ahead. However, you do NEED that amount of bankroll to quit when at least $2500 ahead.

Similarly....Biloxi Bill can't figure out how to quit when his ass keeps getting whooped! :)

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Alan, you don't NEED a gambling bankroll of $57,200 to quit when ahead. However, you do NEED that amount of bankroll to quit when at least $2500 ahead.

Similarly....Biloxi Bill can't figure out how to quit when his ass keeps getting whooped! :)

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Biloxi Bill can't figure out when to quit, and that's true.

But why does someone have to quit at least $2500 ahead? What's wrong with quitting $200 ahead? Do that five days a week and it's a nice job.

Nothing wrong with quitting when ahead ANY amount. It sure beats the alternative. My stop point was because I played only one session a week, and there was no way I was ever going to move to a sh**hole like LV.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Question: Who here has EVER profited from a rebate?

Answer: NO ONE has ever profited from a rebate. At best a rebate kept you in the game longer so that you could win a certain amount. If you have already lost the required buy-in to receive a rebate you are now at a bigger losing point. For example, if you use a $500 loss rebate on a video poker game that pays 99.2% you are now in this position:

You are playing $500 (free play rebate) X .992 - $500.

So, what does that do to your AP edge?

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WRONG!!! Casinos have had 150% loss rebates.

You dont like how I used an example of somthing diffrent than what you were thinking do you? IIRC you like to do that.

Let's get back to the 100% rebate example. A loss rebate is significant +EV and that's all that matters. If you play enough of them them the correct way you would find it hard not to make money. I would never lose money after playing 3 equal loss rebates.

With 2 people and 2 loss rebates, you can guarantee a profit.
Or one person with 2 diffrent loss rebates could guarantee a profit.

FYI the M claims 14 days to get a notification when your Rebate money is avaliable. From what I have been told by the boothlings and others, it takes over one month after the email to get your all your rebate money now.

Axel if there is a 150% loss rebate I would throw myself on my sword and admit I was wrong. Please let us know where this was?

And by definition a rebate of less than 100% on losses is negative. That's the English language. Figure it anyway you want with your math but a loss rebate means you lost while a rebate of less than 100% cannot make you whole. It's just that simple.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Axel if there is a 150% loss rebate I would throw myself on my sword and admit I was wrong. Please let us know where this was?

And by definition a rebate of less than 100% on losses is negative. That's the English language. Figure it anyway you want with your math but a loss rebate means you lost while a rebate of less than 100% cannot make you whole. It's just that simple.

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I will not say where it was at because they have done it more than once and may do it agian. I will say it was up to 3k.

There are people who know when the Loch Ness Monster will show itself.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Axel if there is a 150% loss rebate I would throw myself on my sword and admit I was wrong. Please let us know where this was?

And by definition a rebate of less than 100% on losses is negative. That's the English language. Figure it anyway you want with your math but a loss rebate means you lost while a rebate of less than 100% cannot make you whole. It's just that simple.

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I don't care how the "English language" or Alan translates something. I care about the math. If the English language says something is a loser but the math says it's a winner....guess what -- it's a winner.

Let me explain to you what a loss rebate means. Try to understand:

If you are offered a 20% loss rebate you will get back twenty cents on each dollar lost.

That is what a loss rebate is. It is nothing more.

A loss rebate that is less than 100% will never make you whole.

But at this point you "math people" and APs start making what I will politely call "adjustments" to what rebates are. You will start adding the value of rebates to the expected return of games.

No where in the English language is adding value of partial payments part of the definition of loss rebates.

So back to my original statement: loss rebates of less than 100% do not make you a winner. Only winning bets make you a winner. However loss rebates can keep you playing longer so you can hit a winner.

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Axel if there is a 150% loss rebate I would throw myself on my sword and admit I was wrong. Please let us know where this was?

And by definition a rebate of less than 100% on losses is negative. That's the English language. Figure it anyway you want with your math but a loss rebate means you lost while a rebate of less than 100% cannot make you whole. It's just that simple.

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I don't care how the "English language" or Alan translates something. I care about the math. If the English language says something is a loser but the math says it's a winner....guess what -- it's a winner.

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This is about Alan failing to account for the fact that the loss rebate is part of the equation because it is applicable to a session even if it is not applied after the session. Alan is not considering the rebate as existing until it is applied.

At first I was going to argue this wasn't about language, but maybe it is. Alan is using a very narrow (but common) definition of rebate where a rebate is something that occurs only after the fact. The truth is that the math of this properly perceives the rebate as something that is active and alive regardless of whether it is actually used at the conclusion of the session. The common use of the word "rebate" here is confusing. The math is unassailable.

In that sense, what we are calling "rebates" may more properly be considered "insurance." The "insurance" is active and allows one to take risks regardless of outcome.

Well said redietz because your machine's meter does not register the rebate on each lost hand.

You guys are treating the rebate as if it was paid to you immediately with each play.

The rebates/insurance makes things positive in the following way. This is a really stupid analogy, but what the hell.

Say you have a crappy car and need to get cross-country from Point A to Point B. You don't really know if your car will make it; it's about a coin flip. You are, however, a member of AAA Premium. The fact you're a member of AAA Premium means you can get a tow if the car breaks down, and they'll rent you a car while it's being repaired.

So you undertake the trip. Now if you do break down, your expenses are covered, except you're going to tip the tow truck driver. The tip will come out of your own pocket.

You undertake the trip, which is not something you would have done if you didn't have AAA. Sometimes you make it. Sometimes you don't, and you have to tip the tow truck guy.

Alan sees things as those times you tip the guy, you're losing money. He doesn't internalize that the times you make the trip without breaking down, AAA was a key reason you were able to successfully make the trip. You would never have left home without AAA in the first place.

Your analogy makes no sense to me. But how about this:

Loss rebates give you back a portion of what you lost and with that rebate you have another chance to win.

Also... loss rebates do not change the expected return of a game. If you're playing 8/5 Bonus video poker with a $500 rebate, once your own money is lost and you're using the rebate money to resume playing you're still playing 8/5 Bonus video poker with the same expected return.

OK gang, let me tell you the actual M Resort Rebate result from last weekend.

I decided to take Rob Singer's guidance who had suggested that I probably could do the M Resort loss rebate as a "new player." So my wife and I drove the 14 miles south of to M Resort and verify whether my lack of any "Marquee Rewards" club card would allow me to use the Rebate, even though both of us were members of Tropicana Casino's former club card (which now happens to be a "sister property.")

We were told at the M Resort club desk ("Marquee Rewards") that I was eligible after taking my Drivers License and consulting the computer. I was given a card and was told that under the Loss Rebate promotion if I play and lose on any machine within a day (up to $500), I would receive an email "within 14 business days" that would give me a notice that would allow me to play half the loss in free play (within a month of notice) and I could get the other half of the free play within a month after that. I was led to believe it would be one email with both date ranges.

So armed with that knowledge, Wife and I decided I would first play on a highly volatile machine to try to hit it big, up to a $500 loss. Then if I lost, we planned to play the free play on the $2 JOB 9/6 VP machines in the high limit room to convert any free play into cash.

So we walked up to the M Resort High Limit Room which was surrounded by low walls in the middle of the casino. I was thinking of playing the "Top Dollar" machines but there were two couples who were playing the two Top Dollar machines at the one dollar denomination (even though there was also $5, $10 and $25 options). So we walked over to the Double Gold machine just to the left of the Top Dollar machines. I put in $200 and invited my wife to sit down. Here is a photo of that machine and its pay table.

My wife played two coins at the $5 denomination so it was $10 a pull (or press if you really want to be technical). For 12 presses, nothing was hit and I was starting to think I would have to add more money to the machine. Or perhaps switch machines. On the lucky thirteenth press, I saw the following:

My wife commented that it was too bad they were mixed colors of Sevens as all yellow sevens would have meant twice as much winnings. As it was, the fact that it was two doublers on a mixed seven meant we won $800 on that press (assuming you forget that the spin cost $10). I then pressed the cashout button and came away with a $660 profit. Here is a photo.

That is beautiful! Well done.

We were excited by the success of that gambit, so we decided to sign up Wife for that card as well.

For some reason, she did not want to play the same machine and popped in $300 in a $5 denomination Pin Baller slot game which required $15 per spin (if you wanted to take advantage of the full pin ball feature). She put her card in the machine (BTW, to enjoy the rebate you need to use the card to keep track of any losses so make sure the card is registered in the machine). She had no luck for a time then hit the Pin Ball feature. The result was we now had a total of $480 in the machine. Did we stop with a $180 win? No. Wife was excited to keep playing and I had previously guestimated that given the rebate, I should stop if we had a $250 profit or half the rebate. Unfortunately, there was not another bonus before the all the credits were lost.

Wife then slipped in another $200 in an adjoining machine and soon lost all of that as well. So we were down her full $500.

Wife then went to the Marquee Rewards desk (which doubles as the cashier) and asked her losses. The clerk looked up her "cash in" and her "cash out" (apparently any win on the machine is a "cash out" by his definition even though we did not cash out any tickets ) and the loss was verified.

We had already planned to visit Vegas in another two weeks so we will wait for the email on the free play and try to cash out the free play with the minimum play on video poker. At the very least, we have made a profit because I am sitting on a $660 win and she has lost $500 -- without any free play yet to be used. I will be interested to see if the free play requires wife to personally show up at the desk or whether I can just use her PIN and card to access the free play.

Regards, FAB

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

I will be interested to see if the free play require wife to personally show up at the desk or whether I can just use her PIN and card to access the free play.

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Good question. Do they send you a code or do they have you show up at the rewards desk for a voucher?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

I will be interested to see if the free play require wife to personally show up at the desk or whether I can just use her PIN and card to access the free play.

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Good question. Do they send you a code or do they have you show up at the rewards desk for a voucher?

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Hi Alan:

I will let the forum know when (if) we get that email.

FAB

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Originally Posted by redietz

That is beautiful! Well done.

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Thanks Red. I was feeling pretty good after that hit.

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

My wife commented that it was too bad they were mixed colors of Sevens as all yellow sevens would have meant twice as much winnings. As it was, the fact that it was two doublers on a mixed seven meant we won $800 on that press (assuming you forget that the spin cost $10). I then pressed the cashout button and came away with a $660 profit. Here is a photo.

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And that's how it's done, Alan. If you get a lead on them like Fab did you cash out and forget the loss rebate offer.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

My wife commented that it was too bad they were mixed colors of Sevens as all yellow sevens would have meant twice as much winnings. As it was, the fact that it was two doublers on a mixed seven meant we won $800 on that press (assuming you forget that the spin cost $10). I then pressed the cashout button and came away with a $660 profit. Here is a photo.

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And that's how it's done, Alan. If you get a lead on them like Fab did you cash out and forget the loss rebate offer.

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And once again, the loss rebate had nothing to do with the win. The loss rebate only would have softened the blow had both lost.

Now, there's a chance Mrs. Fab might catch up.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

[And once again, the loss rebate had nothing to do with the win. The loss rebate only would have softened the blow had both lost. Now, there's a chance Mrs. Fab might catch up.

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Alan, you are one hard headed dude. Soften the blow? That's all it does? You seem to have no problem throwing $500 at video poker and if you lose it all walk away with a $500 loss, but you look forward to cashing out ahead using your stop win. But you look at freeplay like you might "get lucky" and get "some" of your money back. Red Alert! When you play off $500 in freeplay you might cashout more than $500. But the true value of a $500 loss rebate, played off on 9/6 Jacks is $497.72

$500 X 99.5439% = $497.72

Fab, 9/6 Jacks is a pretty good choice for running off the freeplay. I'm putting up a screenshot of the game stats to give you an idea of what you are looking at playing $2 denom. You can see that the HP/2P/3K represent about 70% of the payback. You will be playing just 50 hands so if you don't hit anything higher than this group of hands you will be looking at recouping about $350.

The next group of hands up the payscale are the ST/FL/FH. They represent about 21% of the payback. If you hit a few of those hands you will recoup somewhere above $450.

If you hit a quad or higher you will come up big on the play.

Now, let's contrast quarter denom to $2 denom. If you run the freeplay off on quarters you will be playing 400 hands. This gives you a much better chance of hitting your average in the ST/FL/FH group. The payback up through the Full House is 91%. So you would be looking at cashing somewhere around $450 if you don't hit any quads. If you hit just one quad you will probably cash very close to the $500. If you hit two quads you will probably cash a little more than $500.

The tradeoff between quarters and $2 denom is with quarters you would have to hit a royal flush to come up big on the play....whereas at $2 denom you would come up big hitting just one quad. But playing $2 denom you would only be playing 50 hands as opposed to 400 hands on quarters.

Fab, it all comes down to how much risk you want to assume.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

And once again, the loss rebate had nothing to do with the win. The loss rebate only would have softened the blow had both lost.

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If I could do a $1000 freeplay loss rebate everyday for a year I guarantee you I would make $100,000+. And yes, it would be the loss rebates that caused me to win.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

And once again, the loss rebate had nothing to do with the win. The loss rebate only would have softened the blow had both lost.

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If I could do a $1000 freeplay loss rebate everyday for a year I guarantee you I would make $100,000+. And yes, it would be the loss rebates that caused me to win.

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I think you'd go broke and pretty quickly. You still won't recognize that in order to claim rebate money you must lose your own money first. Then you are playing the rebate money at a game that pays less than a 100% return.

You do not add the rebate to the return of the original game.

The original game is played only with your own money.

Then the original game is played again with the rebate money.

Original money X 99.5% = game 1
Rebate money X 99.5% = game 2

Rebate money can't make you win. Only if you hit actual winning hands can you have a profit.

Going back to FAB: he won but a rebate had nothing to do with his win.

MRS. FAB lost with her own money BUT now has a chance to catch up or win with the rebate on the next two trips. But the rebate alone will not make her positive.

Mickey you have been sucked in by casino math which unfortunately doesn't work when you want to get a mortgage to buy a house.

The insurance is the reason Fab played. The insurance was therefore a requirement for Fab's playing, and a necessary component for Fab's winning. Without the insurance, there was no win. The insurance was therefore necessary. It was necessary but not sufficient, therefore it bore some responsibility. One can debate the degree of responsibility, but it definitely was responsible.

Are you serious? While the rebate can be viewed as insurance he never collected on the insurance.

If you really want to use the insurance analogy, the premium he paid for the insurance was the edge he faced on the slot machine he played.

Obviously none of you are business people. If you are how do you stay in business with this "casino math" you swear by?

You're all nuts.

You guys are wasting your time with Alan. He thinks loss rebates are bad but then thinks the ATS bet on craps is good. And he calls us nuts?!?!?!

Remember, he's admitted to working with casino personnel. IOW, he wants you to lose.

I've been doing alright using my "casino math" I swear by. And I know plenty of others who are doing mighty fine using "casino math" to make money. It's actually quite fun and much easier (in some respects) than working the same dead end job many Americans work (not that there's anything wrong with that).

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Originally Posted by jbjb

You guys are wasting your time with Alan. He thinks loss rebates are bad but then thinks the ATS bet on craps is good. And he calls us nuts?!?!?!

Remember, he's admitted to working with casino personnel. IOW, he wants you to lose.

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This is typical of you. Rebates aren't bad just as free play is not bad and comped rooms and comped show tickets are not bad, and free entries into tournaments are not bad. But just as those comps won't make you a winner (they are also rebates) getting money back from the casinos after you lose your own money doesn't make you a winner either. Or do you really believe it does? You've been inhaling too much casino happy gas.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

[MRS. FAB lost with her own money BUT now has a chance to catch up or win with the rebate on the next two trips. But the rebate alone will not make her positive. Mickey you have been sucked in by casino math which unfortunately doesn't work when you want to get a mortgage to buy a house.

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Alan, you have been sucked in by your reading comprehension and very bad casino math. They already won. They had $1000 of loss rebate to work with. Fab hit for a $660 profit and forfeited his $500 loss rebate. Even if she lost every hand on the freeplay, which she won't, they still make a $160 profit. She'll win at least $300 off the freeplay and probably a lot more.

They will probably net at least a $500 win on the play. But those loss rebate promos sure suck, wink wink, don't they, Alan.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

[MRS. FAB lost with her own money BUT now has a chance to catch up or win with the rebate on the next two trips. But the rebate alone will not make her positive. Mickey you have been sucked in by casino math which unfortunately doesn't work when you want to get a mortgage to buy a house.

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Alan, you have been sucked in by your reading comprehension and very bad casino math. They already won. They had $1000 of loss rebate to work with. Fab hit for a $660 profit and forfeited his $500 loss rebate. Even if she lost every hand on the freeplay, which she won't, they still make a $160 profit. She'll win at least $300 off the freeplay and probably a lot more.

They will probably net at least a $500 win on the play. But those loss rebate promos sure suck, wink wink, don't they, Alan.

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Yes you boob. They won. But they won because Fab hit a winner that was more than the actual cash that Mrs Fab lost.

But... Mrs Fab still has a chance to use the loss rebate later to win back some of the money she lost and maybe more.

Do you understand yet, mr boob -- that the fucking loss rebate has not made them a winner yet?????

Are you really this fucking thick?

Hi Alan:

I respect you, including your right to defend your point of view, but you really shouldn't stoop to profanity on your former board. That's not you. :eek:

Fab there comes a time when even this mild mannered reporter for a great metropolitan media conglomerate loses his cool over the stupidity some people express.

Suppose we substituted the loss rebate as meal tickets instead of slot machine vouchers?

Hey FABismonte, excellent trip report, very detailed as always! Thanks for sharing the gaming experience at M Resort.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Suppose we substituted the loss rebate as meal tickets instead of slot machine vouchers?

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Hi Alan:

Not sure where you are going, but I do stand ready to treat you for a meal if we are in Vegas at the same time.

Cheers, FAB

Fab always happy to meet up!

Fab, thank you for your detailed report. It really helped me understand this discussion better. BTW, the way the desk representative used the term cash out is typical. It's all money that the machine(s) put out in terms of pay on bet, not just the amount you cash out with. Mlife, as one example, has this information by casino on the online W/L reports. But many just tell you your net W/L and maybe total W-2 wins, like CET.

I'm not going to try this at home, but I can see now how you fellows that claim to make money at working these rebates can do this. If you can maintain the discipline, as Fab did, to bank the win and forgo the rebate when you do meet your win goal, you lock in that profit. When you go and lose, like Fab's wife did, you can run the rebate through once, ideally in something lower denomination with a good paytable like mickey's suggestions, continue to maintain discipline and take the cash that gives you and bank that. The times you got lucky plus the proceeds from running the rebates when you didn't win the first time I could see leading to a profit overall.

One question I do have, for those who say they make money off of this - does your profit come solely from working the rebates themselves or do you factor other things into it? Like the future free play offers that putting in all this play should generate, or the points in the players programs? Depending on how you work those - after all someone on here mentioned selling beer vouchers in the parking lot to local cheap beer aficionados as an advantage play, so I'm assuming anything goes - they could also be a source of profit. I was just wondering if other things were figuring into the "I could make $100K off an $xxx rebate" claims.

Personally, I would never factor those things into it.

I think I've done rebates at the Trop, the Plaza, Cosmo, and the old Maxim. The Cosmo rebate, when it first started, didn't require that you lose the first day to claim it. If you won, you could delay using the rebate until a day you lost. That option didn't last long, but I took advantage. I won the first day, then lost the second day and ran the rebate through.

Last I checked, Westgate has a $100 rebate program. They may have stopped it in the last month or so, but it's worth giving them a call.

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Originally Posted by pkspins

One question I do have, for those who say they make money off of this - does your profit come solely from working the rebates themselves or do you factor other things into it? Like the future free play offers that putting in all this play should generate, or the points in the players programs? Depending on how you work those - after all someone on here mentioned selling beer vouchers in the parking lot to local cheap beer aficionados as an advantage play, so I'm assuming anything goes - they could also be a source of profit. I was just wondering if other things were figuring into the "I could make $100K off an $xxx rebate" claims.

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For a loss rebate play, I don't consider any of the "extra" stuff as part of the value of it when doing the math on it, unless it's something worthwhile -- typically, the mail, comps, points, etc. will not be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Fab there comes a time when even this mild mannered reporter for a great metropolitan media conglomerate loses his cool over the stupidity some people express. Suppose we substituted the loss rebate as meal tickets instead of slot machine vouchers?

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Alan, you are the one who has been dishing it out the whole time. You call everything an AP posts up here stupid and expect us to just take it. You've been doing that forever. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Go to hell. This is what I really think. It amazes me that someone as math deficient as you has succeeded in life. Your math is not only faulty it is incredibly stupid. But what amazes me more is your arrogance in your stupidity. When it comes to math you are as dense as they come. I've got one more equation for you. When you take stupid and multiply it by 29 you get Alan Mendelson.

I'm not really that math deficient. I came out of college as a trained economist from the Maxwell School of Public Policy at Syracuse... as well as having a degree in TV and radio.

You may excel, mickey, in arithmetic, but your reasoning is way off.

I hate to bring this up, but this is why we had a multi year battle of the two dice in a cup problem. There is the arithmetic answer, and there is the answer that includes reasoning.

So it is with loss rebates.

Sure -- go ahead and add the value of the loss rebate to the pay table of the game, if that's what your arithmetic tells you to do. But if you reason you will understand that the loss rebate is not added to the pay table. Duh. And the loss rebate does not improve the return of the game. Duh.

Con men and crooked bookkeepers and Ponzi scheme operators all have wonderful ways to cook the books to show their victims what they want to see. Frankly, you could do the same thing with casino "advantage play." As Rob says, after losing your thousand dollars you can say "my room was worth $235, and I had $200 of free play, and I got a loss rebate of $600, and I got tickets to Elton John worth $400" but in the end you still lost $1,000 out of your pocket.

Now, if you were going to pay for the room, and pay for Elton John ($235 + $400 = $635) anyway, then you could reason that your actual cost was $335. On the other hand, you could have stayed with your old college roommate in Henderson and paid $400 for the Elton John tickets and used the $235 that you would have spent on the room on a thank you dinner for your host. The "economist" looks at the opportunity costs of each transaction.

I look at the opportunity costs of a loss rebate and what I see is what everyone but an "AP" will see. In fact, I see what the casinos see. I see that you had to lose $500 of real money to get back $500 of free play which the house has an edge to win from you.

Mickey, earlier you wrote: "If I could do a $1000 freeplay loss rebate everyday for a year I guarantee you I would make $100,000+. And yes, it would be the loss rebates that caused me to win." I told you that you would go broke, and you would.

You would go broke because before you could get any of the freeplay rebate you would have to lose $1,000 and then you would be playing the free play with the casino having the advantage against you. So you not only would have to get lucky with the $1,000 of free play each day just to keep it (convert free play into $1,000 of cash) but you'd have to get super lucky to convert the free play into more than $1,000 every day to reach your goal of having a $100,000 profit.

Let's look at what you face if you played a game returning 99.6%.

Each day you play your $1,000 of cash your return would be $996.00 and that would get you how much free play, Mickey? FOUR DOLLARS. Do you think the casino will give you that FOUR DOLLARS, or do you think you'd have to lose a bit more... say $1,000.

So suppose you lose your $1,000 each day and trot off the cage to pick up your free play voucher. Oops. You discover you can get $500 that can be played in one week, and another $500 that can be played one week after that. Okay, you reason, this is a long term project -- you have a year to turn a $100,000 profit.

So you come back to the casino a week later and you run the first $500 voucher through and lo and behold this time with a 99.6% return you are down $2.

You see Mickey... you keep talking about the math. But the math is always against you.

Now, how do you win? You win by hitting big payoffs -- or any payoffs that give you a return greater than the amount of the initial bet. That is what I've been saying all along. Sometimes (and hopefully it's the case for everyone) the payoffs with the return come with your initial bankroll so you don't have to hit bottom to claim the loss rebate. But if you have hit bottom it becomes even harder to win back the initial bankroll... which in your example, Mickey, is $1,000 a day.

Yes, Rob is right. Casinos love to give loss rebates. And they hope every player claims their loss rebate. Dear Lord, oh how they wish every player would claim their loss rebate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Yes, Rob is right. Casinos love to give loss rebates. And they hope every player claims their loss rebate. Dear Lord, oh how they wish every player would claim their loss rebate.

---

Alan, there are a lot of things to comment on in your post but I will start with this one here. Loss rebate promotions to the general public for any substantial amount of money like $500 or $1000 are not popular with casino execs. They are usually a last ditch effort by a struggling casino to try and generate business.

When Sienna, that Rob talks about, put up the loss rebate promo it was on it's last legs. Sienna was one of those casinos that got raked over the coals by AP's over the years because they were always struggling for business. Their marketers and managers kept coming up with promotions that AP's killed. That crew would get fired then the new crew would come up with promotions that AP's killed. That went on for a lot of years.

Revel had the grandaddy of all loss rebate promos when they offered $100,000 loss rebates to everyone in 2013. They did this because they were on the brink of bankruptcy and threw a hail mary pass at it. But then they disqualified their hi denom machines from the promo effectively killing a lot of business. It was business they didn't want....that of big bankrolled AP's. If they would have let those AP's work the promotion on high denom they would have lost millions. And where is Revel at today?

If these promos worked that well for the casinos you would see all casinos offering loss rebates to every customer everyday of the week. But you don't see that do you?

Deleted. Double post.

mickey, casinos don't offer widespread loss rebates for the same reason they stopped giving same day cash back -- they don't want to be bothered.

Up until about ten years ago, Caesars Palace gave same day cash back. Many of us called it our "going home money." We'd stop by the players club desk (this was pre Total Rewards) and get a voucher from the desk person and then we'd go the cage. After a weekend I'd sometimes go home with 300-500. But that took a lot of manpower. There was someone at the players club and there was a long line at the cage.

could you imagine the lines now if they still offered something like that today? I'm sure you havent been at Caesars in the past couple of years but even Seven Stars have a line at the cage.

Bellagio still has a cash back program but it's automated and you download the play at a machine to play. Other casinos also have a system for automatically downloading. But the #1 reason they want to get rid of all of these related promotions is manpower. Ever been to any Total Rewards desk and youll see lines.

when loss rebates are split up into multiple days, the casinos are hoping you don't return. That gives them an even bigger profit.

But manpower is a huge cost for casinos these days. They'll do anything to eliminate people. Who ever thought craps games could be run without boxmen? Now it's standard with Caesars properties. And why did Caesars start to install drink ordering on slot machines? So cocktail waitresses would concentrate on deliveries and not taking orders and that saved people too.

Revel? the APs didn't break Revel. Revel had the APs in the palm of their hand. But Revel got into trouble with its promotion. Perhaps you never saw this, but read it and maybe you'll bet a better idea about loss rebates get you and they get you over and over again:

https://consumerist.com/2013/07/22/c...-you-gambling/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

https://consumerist.com/2013/07/22/c...-you-gambling/

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I remember the article. I wholeheartedly agree with the reporter on what casino execs are trying to do. But you are lumping in advantage gamblers with negative expectation gamblers. I have never done what casino execs expect me to do. I devise my own plan to get their money then go get it....and yes, the mathematics of it is a big part of it. When I started out in this business 21 years ago I was a homeless drifter. I started out on two bit advantage plays with a $20 bankroll. As the bankroll grew it opened up more opportunities. And it kept growing. For years now I've had a nice place to live, a nice car, a gambling bankroll, money in the bank.

Before I stumbled into advantage gambling, yes I stumbled into it quite by accident, I used to think "wouldn't it be nice to find a way to make money with no strings attached, no boss, not beholden to anyone, not answering to anyone." Well, EUREKA!!! I'VE FOUND IT!!! And I'm not going to change the way I do things because of non-believers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

https://consumerist.com/2013/07/22/c...-you-gambling/

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I remember the article. I wholeheartedly agree with the reporter on what casino execs are trying to do. But you are lumping in advantage gamblers with negative expectation gambler. I have never done what casino execs expect me to do. I devise my own plan to get their money then go get it....and yes, the mathematics of it is a big part of it. When I started out in this business 21 years ago I was a homeless drifter. I started out on two bit advantage plays with a $20 bankroll. As the bankroll grew it opened up more opportunities. And it kept growing. For years now I've had a nice place to live, a nice car, a gambling bankroll, money in the bank.

Before I stumbled into advantage gambling, yes I stumbled into it quite by accident, I used to think "wouldn't it be nice to find a way to make money with no strings attached, no boss, not beholden to anyone, not answering to anyone." Well, EUREKA!!! I'VE FOUND IT!!! And I'm not going to change the way I do things because of non-believers.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXDQ-QliMJI

Blackasshole is an idiot.

Be practical for a moment, Mickey. Do you ever plan on losing in order to collect a loss rebate? Of course you don't. Why? Because if you lose to collect a loss rebate you are negative and it becomes even harder to turn a profit from a negative position. You want to always be positive. Do you agree?

So do I have to say it one more time?

You want to win and hit winners with your own money... just like Fab did and like Rob did and like Rob's friend did at Revel. But in the event you lose like Mrs. Fab did the loss rebate gives you a second chance but loss rebates by themselves don't make you a winner.

Geez. Do we got it now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Be practical for a moment, Mickey. Do you ever plan on losing in order to collect a loss rebate? Of course you don't. Why? Because if you lose to collect a loss rebate you are negative and it becomes even harder to turn a profit from a negative position. You want to always be positive. Do you agree?

So do I have to say it one more time?

You want to win and hit winners with your own money... just like Fab did and like Rob did and like Rob's friend did at Revel. But in the event you lose like Mrs. Fab did the loss rebate gives you a second chance but loss rebates by themselves don't make you a winner.

Geez. Do we got it now?

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Alan-everything you just said is correct. And I don't want to sound like I've crossed to the dark side here, but isn't it also better to have the rebate than not? If you are going to wager $500, isn't it better to wager the $500 and have the rebate available if you lose? Isn't that a better wager?

No--you do not automatically win. But it "should" improve your overall result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regnis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Be practical for a moment, Mickey. Do you ever plan on losing in order to collect a loss rebate? Of course you don't. Why? Because if you lose to collect a loss rebate you are negative and it becomes even harder to turn a profit from a negative position. You want to always be positive. Do you agree?

So do I have to say it one more time?

You want to win and hit winners with your own money... just like Fab did and like Rob did and like Rob's friend did at Revel. But in the event you lose like Mrs. Fab did the loss rebate gives you a second chance but loss rebates by themselves don't make you a winner.

Geez. Do we got it now?

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Alan-everything you just said is correct. And I don't want to sound like I've crossed to the dark side here, but isn't it also better to have the rebate than not? If you are going to wager $500, isn't it better to wager the $500 and have the rebate available if you lose? Isn't that a better wager?

No--you do not automatically win. But it "should" improve your overall result.

---

Regnis - Agree. Who wouldn't want a loss rebate if they we're going to gamble anyways? No one. Now, I wouldn't jump through hoops to get one, nor would I change my original method of play much like playing slots instead of VP, but I would undoubtedly play higher variance games like DDB and TDB.

I think most of this debate has been semantics. No, loss rebates by themselves do not make anyone a winner. But by definition they do cushion a loss and give one a "second chance" to recoup the original loss. Either one of those scenarios if one is going to gamble anyway, is better than not having the rebate.

P.S.
I've never used or have been offered one.

Of course you want a second chance but you can't depend on the second chance to win. and hopefully you'll win on your original money so you never need to claim the insurance. remember nobody ever wins with insurance the only one who wins with insurance is the insurance company

Casinos don't have to "mess around" with loss rebates, it's all automated, the casino doesn't have to do much other than implementing the program. It's a standard feature on most slot systems nowadays, even the oldest outdated system have it, so claiming the casinos don't do it because it's a hassle is just not true.

Loss rebates are good for the casino as long as there are poppies around, since there are far more poppies than smart gamblers around, the casinos benefit. If only smart players played Loss rebates the casinos would absoulutly lose money.

The avrage person will do many things that negate their EV. Lose more than the rebate itself. Forget to pick up their loss rebate. Play the rebate money untill they have lost it all. Casinos also bennifit from getting new players information so they can market them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Of course you want a second chance but you can't depend on the second chance to win. and hopefully you'll win on your original money so you never need to claim the insurance. remember nobody ever wins with insurance the only one who wins with insurance is the insurance company

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Alan - I don't think I heard anyone say that they depend on the second chance to win. Rather, play with discipline, play the best schedule you can find and recoup a high percentage of the rebate or more.

Dannyj be honest: when you play at a casino that offers a loss rebate, is it your plan to lose your original money so you can claim the rebate?

I'll answer: of course not. Your plan is to win with your money.

If you have to claim the rebate it's because you are a loser. If the rebate isn't paid as 100% cash then the casino has an edge that will make it hard to win back what you initially loss.

If you want to win, then win. If you do lose your original money the rebate does give you a second chance.

It's good to have a second chance but second chances should not be part of your plan.

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused: A loss rebate is basically a free roll. :)

Let's say a $500 loss rebate. You play aggressively with your own money, trying to hit whatever Target you have chosen...something substantial, a substantial win.

If you fail to do so and lose the $500, you get the rebate in free play, which you then play through conservatively. Even if you play a 'bad' video poker game with say 98% payback, that $500 free play (rebate) is worth expected value of $490. You may not return exactly $490 of course. Maybe you get unlucky and return $450, maybe you hit a couple small jackpots and return $550. Doesn't matter, the expected value is $490.

So you go into the rebate with chance to win big (whatever your target is) vs a loss expectation of $10. Who wouldn't take that all day long, every day! :cool: Nobody is trying to cash in on the rebate. The rebate is simply the insurance policy. I just don't get why there is even a discussion about this? :confused:

And if your argument is that the player won't stop once he/she plays the free play through once, and will lose it all.....then you are exactly the type of schmuck the casino is looking for.

Alan, I've been doing a little research into AP strategies for loss rebate promotions. Here's one that has led to some casino execs disqualifying ELECTRONIC ROULETTE from these promotions. Casino execs always learn these things from getting their asses kicked by AP's....then make adjustments to the promotion. On a $500 loss rebate:

Plan A: Bet $50 on 10 numbers (all in the same game). There are 38 stops on the wheel so you have a 26.3% chance of one of your numbers hitting.

10/38 = 26.3%

If one of your numbers hit you will cash for $1800. But your bet was $500 so it's a net win of $1300. SO IF YOUR NUMBER HITS CASH OUT AND GO HOME.

If your number doesn't hit then go to Plan B and claim the $500 loss rebate. Bet $18 on Red, $18 on Black, and $1 each on the zeroes. That's a $38 bet which you are guaranteed to get back $36. You do this 13 times. At that point you will have bet $494 of the freeplay and got a $468 return. Doing it this way you take all of the variance out of the play. There is zero variance. You will have 6 odd dollars to playoff which you will probably get at least half back. So we are looking at a cost of $26 to $29. We'll call it $27.

So on this play you will have a 73.7% chance to lose $27....And you will have a 26.3% chance to win $1300.

I don't know about you, Alan, but I will take this gamble everyday of the year.

Someone should check to see if the M has electronic roulette and if it is allowed in the promotion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused: A loss rebate is basically a free roll. :)

Let's say a $500 loss rebate. You play aggressively with your own money, trying to hit whatever Target you have chosen...something substantial, a substantial win.

If you fail to do so and lose the $500, you get the rebate in free play, which you then play through conservatively. Even if you play a 'bad' video poker game with say 98% payback, that $500 free play (rebate) is worth expected value of $490. You may not return exactly $490 of course. Maybe you get unlucky and return $450, maybe you hit a couple small jackpots and return $550. Doesn't matter, the expected value is $490.

---

If you are comfortable doing that then go ahead and do it. But it's exactly what the casino hopes you will do. Why? Because the casino wants that ten dollars.

And to increase that margin, the casino will give you that free play over two or more weeks. Wasn't it over twenty weeks with Revel? And then, some players won't be there to use all of the free play rebate.

This is the reality of what loss rebates are all about.

Frankly, why play aggressively in the first place? I've wondered why no one questioned this so I am. Why not play as you normally would with games with the lowest house edge, and just in case things go wrong, you have the loss rebate to fall back on? Why is there this urgency to play aggressively with your own money?

Now... if it were upfront free play, I can understand using the free play aggressively. In fact, that's what I used to do back in the good old days when I was getting up front $2500 of free play at Caesars. I would use that on triple double bonus or double double bonus, and then use my winnings from the free play to play my usual 8/5 Bonus.

There is nothing "free" about a loss rebate. If that were the case, then all those hot-shot/big-deal so-called AP's wouldn't have gotten thrown out of the Revel promo for going against the rules. Free? So let's ignore that and play this "free roll" according to OUR rules instead of the casino's.....Yeah right.

These AP's like to create the feeling of being able to "get their intermittent gambling satisfactions" by playing the hi-variance games going in. But just they forget--the casinos are going to make money overall from these misguided people with this promotion.They'll get you either coming or going.

And what about the foolish statement: "bbbut.....gee guys, it's worth $490!" Yes Mr. Einstein, those there 490 phantom bucks sure will come in handy at the grocery store, while that ten bucks you ACTUALLY lost on the promo has no meaning whatsoever.

No wonder these people are always arguing with hotel bills, utility companies, restaurants, etc. over three or four "over-charged" dollars.....

[QUOTE=Alan Mendelson;50108]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

If you are comfortable doing that then go ahead and do it. But it's exactly what the casino hopes you will do. Why? Because the casino wants that ten dollars.

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They wanted Fab's ten dollars too. But they didn't get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

And what about the foolish statement: "bbbut.....gee guys, it's worth $490!" Yes Mr. Einstein, those there 490 phantom bucks sure will come in handy at the grocery store, while that ten bucks you ACTUALLY lost on the promo has no meaning whatsoever.

---

Phantom bucks don't work at the grocery store but the $660 Fab won will come in real handy there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Alan, I've been doing a little research into AP strategies for loss rebate promotions. Here's one that has led to some casino execs disqualifying ELECTRONIC ROULETTE from these promotions. Casino execs always learn these things from getting their asses kicked by AP's....then make adjustments to the promotion. On a $500 loss rebate:

Plan A: Bet $50 on 10 numbers (all in the same game). There are 38 stops on the wheel so you have a 26.3% chance of one of your numbers hitting.

10/38 = 26.3%

If one of your numbers hit you will cash for $1800. But your bet was $500 so it's a net win of $1300. SO IF YOUR NUMBER HITS CASH OUT AND GO HOME.

If your number doesn't hit then go to Plan B and claim the $500 loss rebate. Bet $18 on Red, $18 on Black, and $1 each on the zeroes. That's a $38 bet which you are guaranteed to get back $36. You do this 13 times. At that point you will have bet $494 of the freeplay and got a $468 return. Doing it this way you take all of the variance out of the play. There is zero variance. You will have 6 odd dollars to playoff which you will probably get at least half back. So we are looking at a cost of $26 to $29. We'll call it $27.

So on this play you will have a 73.7% chance to lose $27....And you will have a 26.3% chance to win $1300.

I don't know about you, Alan, but I will take this gamble everyday of the year.

Someone should check to see if the M has electronic roulette and if it is allowed in the promotion.

---

Excellent explanation. I don't see any possible criticism. A blind orangutan could do this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused: A loss rebate is basically a free roll. :)

Let's say a $500 loss rebate. You play aggressively with your own money, trying to hit whatever Target you have chosen...something substantial, a substantial win.

If you fail to do so and lose the $500, you get the rebate in free play, which you then play through conservatively. Even if you play a 'bad' video poker game with say 98% payback, that $500 free play (rebate) is worth expected value of $490. You may not return exactly $490 of course. Maybe you get unlucky and return $450, maybe you hit a couple small jackpots and return $550. Doesn't matter, the expected value is $490.

So you go into the rebate with chance to win big (whatever your target is) vs a loss expectation of $10. Who wouldn't take that all day long, every day! :cool: Nobody is trying to cash in on the rebate. The rebate is simply the insurance policy. I just don't get why there is even a discussion about this? :confused:

And if your argument is that the player won't stop once he/she plays the free play through once, and will lose it all.....then you are exactly the type of schmuck the casino is looking for.

---

You guys are wasting your time arguing with these dense brick walls. Let them think this is a bad play. The less people doing them correctly, the better. There's a reason why these "schmucks" constantly get invited back with their precious "free room" offers and such.

As I've said before, these "schmucks" would rather promote poor play and lousy, high house edge sucker bets than learn how to actually beat these games and be a threat to the casinos. It's suckers like them that pay our bills so we need them to keep believing in their "AP is a myth" mentality. So I'm through here.

Mickey Fab never lost his own money so he never touched the loss rebate. FAB QUIT WHEN AHEAD and imagine that!

Mrs Fab wasn't as lucky and I hope she can utilize the loss rebate in the future to win back what she lost and hopefully do better.

But right now I am overjoyed that there are no claims that loss rebates guarantee you a profit. We are now back to the reality that a loss rebate is played with risk.

Jbjb you are a danger to the people who come here for rational information about casino play. I hope you are through. Your claims about having a full time career in casinos looking for dealers who flash cards are of little help to people who want help to play better in casinos.

Also telling people that it's okay to lose your own money because there is a good chance you'll get most of it back with the loss rebate is irresponsible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey Fab never lost his own money so he never touched the loss rebate. FAB QUIT WHEN AHEAD and imagine that!

Mrs Fab wasn't as lucky and I hope she can utilize the loss rebate in the future to win back what she lost and hopefully do better.

But right now I am overjoyed that there are no claims that loss rebates guarantee you a profit. We are now back to the reality that a loss rebate is played with risk.

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I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates. Unfortunately for you, or me however you want to look at it. You would never have the balls to up enough money for me to prove it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey Fab never lost his own money so he never touched the loss rebate. FAB QUIT WHEN AHEAD and imagine that!

Mrs Fab wasn't as lucky and I hope she can utilize the loss rebate in the future to win back what she lost and hopefully do better.

But right now I am overjoyed that there are no claims that loss rebates guarantee you a profit. We are now back to the reality that a loss rebate is played with risk.

---

I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates. Unfortunately for you, or me however you want to look at it. You would never have the balls to up enough money for me to prove it.

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You're right. And my dick isn't as big as yours either. Now go your merry way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

FAB QUIT WHEN AHEAD and imagine that!.

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Congratulations! You are finally starting to get it. At least a little of it anyway. This is exactly what I've been explaining to you for a week. If you get a lead on them you cash out the win and forego the loss rebate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

FAB QUIT WHEN AHEAD and imagine that!.

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Congratulations! You are finally starting to get it. At least a little of it anyway. This is exactly what I've been explaining to you for a week. If you get a lead on them you cash out the win and forego the loss rebate.

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Sorry, but I've been saying this all along. The loss rebate is for losers, to give them a second chance. The loss rebate has nothing to do with winning. You either win or you hope the second chance with a loss rebate will be enough to bring you out of your hole.

But since we both agree, Mickey, along comes Axel who says "I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates." Oh boy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused: A loss rebate is basically a free roll. :)

Let's say a $500 loss rebate. You play aggressively with your own money, trying to hit whatever Target you have chosen...something substantial, a substantial win.

If you fail to do so and lose the $500, you get the rebate in free play, which you then play through conservatively. Even if you play a 'bad' video poker game with say 98% payback, that $500 free play (rebate) is worth expected value of $490. You may not return exactly $490 of course. Maybe you get unlucky and return $450, maybe you hit a couple small jackpots and return $550. Doesn't matter, the expected value is $490.

So you go into the rebate with chance to win big (whatever your target is) vs a loss expectation of $10. Who wouldn't take that all day long, every day! :cool: Nobody is trying to cash in on the rebate. The rebate is simply the insurance policy. I just don't get why there is even a discussion about this? :confused:

And if your argument is that the player won't stop once he/she plays the free play through once, and will lose it all.....then you are exactly the type of schmuck the casino is looking for.

---

You guys are wasting your time arguing with these dense brick walls. Let them think this is a bad play. The less people doing them correctly, the better. There's a reason why these "schmucks" constantly get invited back with their precious "free room" offers and such.

As I've said before, these "schmucks" would rather promote poor play and lousy, high house edge sucker bets than learn how to actually beat these games and be a threat to the casinos. It's suckers like them that pay our bills so we need them to keep believing in their "AP is a myth" mentality. So I'm through here.

---

JB, do me a favor and stick around for a few more days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But since we both agree, Mickey, along comes Axel who says "I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates." Oh boy.

---

I can tell you this, Alan. I've known about axel for over 20 years. I even worked the same casino promotion he did at the Pioneer/Laughlin in 2002. I know him to be one sharp gambling SOB. He's easily one of the top five machine pros of all time.

With that said, if he says he can cash the freeplay for more than it's worth then I believe him. I don't know exactly how he does it. I have my own ideas about it. But I have no clue what is available on the casino floors of Las Vegas these days. I haven't been there in almost 10 years. My own idea would be to run as much of the freeplay off on advantage plays on accumulator type slot games that offer short term advantages. That is, if I could find enough plays. In the old days this would be games like Wild Cherry Pie, X-Factor, Double Diamond Mine, etc. Axel knows these games. But he probably knows something bettor to run the freeplay off today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates. Unfortunately for you, or me however you want to look at it. You would never have the balls to up enough money for me to prove it.

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The alleged self-proclaimed AP’s posting in this thread make my AP argument perfectly clear.

Okay, good for you AP’s that could do the math, buy yourself a nice car, put some money in the bank, rent or own a nice place, don’t have to answer to anyone, plus the thrill it must be to get yourself off the street gutters. (Mickeys own words) Plus I’m sure you guys also get medical and other support from the government which would explain why most of you are left wing liberals. Remember, Obama care only works if you don’t.

Let’s also stay away from the IRS obligation nonsense, simply because the real facts would never be discussed honestly on a board, and just stop any nonsense about your righteous American spirit and commitment to paying your fair share to them. You guys are worried about a .5% percentage point separating a good play from a bad play, but have no problem paying 30% to 40% of your recorded winnings in taxes. Since you pros have no net loses year after year you got us stomped on how you overcome these tax burdens. Then again, I read on here where over 100K recorded winnings for a year can just vanish with the right connections. Do you see how deep the phony lying bullshit pit keeps getting deeper and deeper here?

How come every time anyone wants any type of even the simplest proof from any AP you have to put up and gamble away any chance of the information helping you? RS wants to be paid for just telling Alan where you could get a rebate of 150%. He would probably have to take a jet to another state, then pay RS off just to find out where it is. Do you fucking idiots even realize how pathetic and helpless you appear to the rest of us? There is no limit to how far any of you are willing to go just to try and convince the rest of us idiots how smart you are.

Axel’s stupid comment here, quote, “I can guarantee a profit using loss rebates. Unfortunately for you, or me however you want to look at it. You would never have the balls to up enough money for me to prove it.” Take a fn walk with your played-out put-up or shut-up nonsense. Just the fact you think anyone here would take your offer to put-up or shut-up just to watch you win playing a rebate shows how stupid you must think everyone else here must be. Is this your only way you have to convince us how gifted you must be? Maybe I’ll take another flight to L.V. just so you could show me how to win a few shekels on a rebate. Maybe that’s a good enough reason for you to meet up with me. Do you expect to win more on the rebate profit, or on our bet that you could do it? I’m starting to get convinced you’re a full-blown clown drifting around Las Vegas.

Like I asked in the past, why are you AP’s even here? No one is ever going to wager a nickel to witness your genius.

Axel had ten days to pick me up in Vegas and drive and show me around the town in his Maserati. We could have stopped at one of his high end homes for a nice barbeque and a swim in his indoor air conditioned pool.

Heck, he could have even faked an injury just to show me how well Medicaid works in the emergency rooms.

Take a walk you professional phony embarrassing fools.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of bed this morning. It's okay, blackhole, you're still loved and cherished. Try to get over it. Boy, sometimes I think you may not be ahead of the casinos lifetime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Somebody got up on the wrong side of bed this morning. It's okay, blackhole, you're still loved and cherished. Try to get over it. Boy, sometimes I think you may not be ahead of the casinos lifetime.

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Another meaningless post from the forums own outer space pet alien.