Expected Value Discussion

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by regnis

So as long as he knows he has a +EV on every hand, what good does tracking do?

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For one thing, it allows you to determine if a game is rigged. KewlJ gave an excellent example of this when he outlined his experience at the Eastside Cannery in Las Vegas -- obviously if you are running at -5 standard deviations below the EV for an extended period of time, then knowing what your earn should be (via tracking the EV) versus what's actually going on will have proven to be very valuable since you will stop playing the rigged game based on the huge differential between expected and actual.

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Rigged games? Like Rob Singer talks about? Oh puhleeze.

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Originally Posted by regnis

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Originally Posted by redietz

A couple of things: whether KJ's 8K loss was a good day or bad day in any sense depends on whether those opportunities are going to be there awhile. If the exact same game will be there for months, I'd feel a lot better playing perfectly and getting slammed than if that game will disappear next week. If you're going to play blackjack for a living, you can't close up shop on a minus 8k day just because of variance. Unless, of course, you suspect a mechanic is part of the problem.

And I guess that would be an issue with me. I'm not able to recognize a mechanic, or a magician, so I'd become paranoid over a result like that which took 10% of my annual earnings away in one shift. Video poker is different, in that so much value is in the royals. I've experienced 100k (hands) without royals and gotten three in a few hundred hands, so getting clobbered in one day with a big edge wouldn't bother me.

I think you have to track the EV. I don't see how a professional machine player or blackjack player could pass on doing that.

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Red-I would ask what value there really is in tracking the EV. He knows the EV and he says it doesn't change on the next hand or the 10,000th hand. So as long as he knows he has a +EV on every hand, what good does tracking do? Yes--I want to know that I have an advantage on my bet. But if I know exactly what that advantage is, isn't that the end? It doesn't make it more likely that I will win any hand down the road. And again, the concept of accumulating it just seems meaningless to me.

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Well, that's where I may be confused (won't be the first time). If you put in an AP shift and change locales with slightly different rules, or if comp accrual changes over time during your shift from place to place or just because of time brackets, then I thought you'd track the EV for each circumstance and jot it down. You can figure the EV totality for the day when the day is done. Mickey obviously changes machines throughout the day, so his EV on the same machine stays the same (although not necessarily because promos may be time restricted), but his EV for the day is going to vary a ton depending what cornucopia of plays he's taking a shot at.

I didn't really understand the idea of EV staying the same throughout the day because I just assume full shifts in one circumstance or attacking one game are pretty rare. Or maybe I just misinterpreted what was being said.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

So this is not an example of "tracking EV" but just being aware of a promotion and playing it at the right time?

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Most promotions don't give an advantage. You have to be able to analyze it to determine the value, what game you can apply it to, how much of an edge, is it worth your time, and know the strategy to the game.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Nice play mickeycrimm. But it seems to me even a new player could have done what you did? That means get a card and play at the designated time for the bonus, right?

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Alan, would a novice be able to find the best game for such a promotion? And would they know optimal strategy? Would they even be aware of the value involved?

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8/5 Bonus Poker pays 99.2% and Mickeys game paid 99.43% Both would still get the 4% bonus? I'd stick with the game I know.

There is a terrible danger playing a game you don't know because of some promotion.

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The strategy for the BJ was easy enough to find:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...hsdIB86ifF3P9m

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Originally Posted by redietz

A couple of things: whether KJ's 8K loss was a good day or bad day in any sense depends on whether those opportunities are going to be there awhile. If the exact same game will be there for months, I'd feel a lot better playing perfectly and getting slammed than if that game will disappear next week. If you're going to play blackjack for a living, you can't close up shop on a minus 8k day just because of variance. Unless, of course, you suspect a mechanic is part of the problem.

And I guess that would be an issue with me. I'm not able to recognize a mechanic, or a magician, so I'd become paranoid over a result like that which took 10% of my annual earnings away in one shift. Video poker is different, in that so much value is in the royals. I've experienced 100k (hands) without royals and gotten three in a few hundred hands, so getting clobbered in one day with a big edge wouldn't bother me.

I think you have to track the EV. I don't see how a professional machine player or blackjack player could pass on doing that.

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Sorry for not responding to this earlier. Been working a lot lately and it is "counter counter-productive" :o, to read this site during my breaks.

Losing 10% of annual earnings in one shift is not pleasant, but it is routine. That is not to say that those kind of days occur weekly or anything. Looking back over the last year, I have had 8 days with losses of 8K or more (11 days of winning 8k or more), so such a losing day occurs every month or two. However there were also 16 times in the last 12 months (went back 14 months since I didn't work several months last fall), where I registered an 8k loss at some point during the day and ended up losing less than half of that amount. 3 of those days ended up as winning days!

And that is EXACTLY why we keep playing rather than adhering to some sort of artificial and voodoo "stop limit". You have an advantage....you keep playing! And this is EXACTLY why every legitimate BJ book written expresses the need for a large bankroll. Blackjack in general is a volatile game with swings. And when you add 'bet spread' with some bets many times the size of other bets, to that mix, you need a very significant bankroll to withstand such swings and variance.

I also want to point out that this day, back in the first week of January, was a single day, a "shift" as you called it, but it was made up of 7 different sessions at 5 different casinos. It just so happens that 2 of those sessions at 2 different casinos were losing sessions in the $3200 range. And when you consider a max bet of $400, a $3200 loss is 8 max bets. That really is very common and again, exactly why a significant bankroll is necessary.

I tried to post a copy of these results the other night, but unfortunately I was unable to do so without giving access to all my records, which I didn't want to do. :rolleyes:

Several times in this thread, the question has been raised as to why it is important to track EV. I am only going to speak of blackjack, because that is what I consider myself a blackjack card counter or blackjack AP.

The best example I can think of was 2015, my younger brother's first year of card counting. I set him up with a $10,000 so that he could play low limit stakes, as he learned the ins and outs, the swings involved, what does and doesn't draw heat. He got off to a fast start, which he thought was great. First six months he nearly doubled his bankroll. I think he won like 9 grand, which was probably double expectation (accumulated EV). Luckily he didn't have much in the way of living expenses....to put gas in a vehicle and entertainment money. Sweet deal, hun? :rolleyes:

So after his initial success he started taking money out of the bankroll, which is what we all do. But he was spending the money he was ahead, which was more than EV. The rule is you spend your EV or preferably a little less. A lot less, if you are trying to grow your BR.


So 2nd half of the year, actual earnings caught up to EV, or in this case came back to EV....AS THEY ALWAY DO! He didn't experience any great losing period. Actually in year 4 now, he STILL hasn't really experienced an exceptional losing swing. But what happened was he didn't win much that second half of 2015. I think he won a thousand bucks or $1200 or whatever it was. So it ended up for the year, he had made something like $9600, which was just about expectation or accumulated EV, BUT because he spent too much when he was winning, he ended up spending about 12 grand for the year. The bottom line was that despite, winning almost exactly on par with expectation or accumulated EV, his bankroll at the end of the year was $2000 less than when he started.

Again the rule is you can spend EV earned, preferably a little less. Well you can't do that if you don't know where you are EV-wise. And that is why professional players, have always, since long before my time, tracked EV or expectation in regards to what their actual results are.

I track EV (and variance) to make sure there isn’t some unknown problem with a play. It’s easy to enough to do the math with “I’m gonna lose X, get Y back, therefore profit Z.” Sometimes of course there are other things to take into account, like unforeseen expenses, casinos trying to fuck you out of your well deserved money, or perhaps not playing properly.

For instance, let’s say KJ is up $30k at the end of a year. If he didn’t keep track of his EV, he doesn’t know where he is compared to where he should be. At $30k/year, it’s likely it’s not worth the effort and he should pack up and move to a different profession. So he plays another year and he wins $50k. He still doesn’t know where he should be because he didn’t track his EV. Should he be making $40k/year? Or maybe he got lucky the last two years and should only be making $10-20k/year. Maybe he’s gotten unlucky and he should be making $80k/year.


Would you start up a new business if you had no idea how much it should cost and what kind of return youd get? Tracking EV is part of a business model for APs. I do it all the time. I need to figure out how much it’s going to cost to get somewhere (airfare), rental cars, hotel, food, other expenses, plus how much the win on the game is and take some away for likely not playing perfectly, then subtract a little more because there always seems to be some additional unforeseen expense. Then I figure the profit per trip. Then how many trips need to be done per week/month/year to make it worthwhile, while balancing “playing enough to make it worth it” and “don’t play too much and blow it up”.

There are plenty of places that are good but not worthwhile because it either costs too much to get there and/or it’s so small you can’t take much from them (enough to cancel out expenses and make it worth it). But if it were here in LV, then it’d be a different story.

Excellent post and examples RS.

I want to expand on the examples you used, because I had a year right along those lines, 2014. I was on WoV, and shared the experiences as I was going through this year, so you and other long-time WoVer may have heard this before.

My 2014: Blackjack winnings $27,345 vs expectation or accumulated EV of $87,600. :( I can remember how the year unfolded without even looking at my records. First half of the year, was ok. A little below expectation. Maybe 30k actual earnings vs expectation of $37k...something in that range. Second half of the year I experienced one of those 6 month long losing periods. I actually went backwards quite a bit before rebounding almost to zero for that second half of the year period. And the last 2 months, I put in a great deal of time and play (really racking up EV) trying to give myself every chance to end strong. The blackjack gods just weren't having it. :rolleyes:

Now I did have 20k earning in non-blackjack play, so that helped, but just imagine if that had been my first year, or the first year after I moved up in stakes, or the first year after I moved to Vegas. I might have given up right then and there. Instead, you know you are running below expectation, and believe in the math, and things will work out in the long-run.....and they did.

But if you aren't tracking EV and KNOW what expectation is, then you are in the dark. I guess it's like trying to build something without having all the tools necessary.

So speaking of EV, today I went over $50k blackjack EV for the year. It is only the second time my blackjack EV has hit 50k for a 6 month period. (I average 75-80k a year in EV). The only other time I went over 50k EV for a 6 month period was 2014,which happens to be my worst year, my one outlier year with blackjack earning of 27k vs EV for the year of 87k. So I am hoping not to follow that path. :rolleyes:

Hitting $50K EV, at my level of play, basically means I have been putting in a lot of time at the tables, more than usual. Especial over the last 2 months since I returned to playing after my partner passed. And no I am not at 50k in earnings for the year. I am at 41k, so running a bit below expectation, but completely within the normal range.

"Earnings" vs. "Losses."

I'm a bit envious.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

So speaking of EV, today I went over $50k blackjack EV for the year. It is only the second time my blackjack EV has hit 50k for a 6 month period. (I average 75-80k a year in EV). The only other time I went over 50k EV for a 6 month period was 2014,which happens to be my worst year, my one outlier year with blackjack earning of 27k vs EV for the year of 87k. So I am hoping not to follow that path. :rolleyes:

Hitting $50K EV, at my level of play, basically means I have been putting in a lot of time at the tables, more than usual. Especial over the last 2 months since I returned to playing after my partner passed. And no I am not at 50k in earnings for the year. I am at 41k, so running a bit below expectation, but completely within the normal range.

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I am not a mathboy so I ask this not to be argumentative ...just as a novice.

Does "this year" mean anything at all. Just like the dice or cards dont know the difference between night and day or 11:59 pm vs 12:01 am.

Forget about EV.Lets use this examplle. In Dec 2017 a guy loses 500k. The from january thru june 2018 he is 50 k ahead, and gleefully announces that he is on a god run and has won a net of 50k "for the year". But if he starts counting one month earlier and looks at the last 7 months.....he is 450k in the hole.

Even if he goes back a year from today to june 2017.......what if in may of 2017 he lost 200k. Again..its an arbitrary period of time.

the only net number that is meaningful are numbers reflected in ones lifetime. You cant fudge those numbers(if they are accurately kept). But numbers reflected in spreads of just months have no meaning to me.

So I would expect the same goes for accumulated ev.....right?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Okay kewlj says EV accumulates.

You read it here first.

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Alan doesn’t understand something. Heard it here first 🙄

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Originally Posted by LarryS

Does "this year" mean anything at all. Just like the dice or cards dont know the difference between night and day or 11:59 pm vs 12:01 am.

Forget about EV.Lets use this examplle. In Dec 2017 a guy loses 500k. The from january thru june 2018 he is 50 k ahead, and gleefully announces that he is on a god run and has won a net of 50k "for the year". But if he starts counting one month earlier and looks at the last 7 months.....he is 450k in the hole.

Even if he goes back a year from today to june 2017.......what if in may of 2017 he lost 200k. Again..its an arbitrary period of time.

the only net number that is meaningful are numbers reflected in ones lifetime. You cant fudge those numbers(if they are accurately kept). But numbers reflected in spreads of just months have no meaning to me.

So I would expect the same goes for accumulated ev.....right?

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LarryS, something we can agree on....a rarity. It goes to the "long term" argument. What is long-term? What is a big enough sample size that variance or natural swing matter less and the math takes over and guarantees "this or that". I don't know the answer as I am not a math boy either. :rolleyes: There are formulas and such, but I don't know I like to go by my own experience. And in my 14 years of professional play, earning have been close to expectation every year but 2. I call them outliers, one year 37k above EV or expectation and one year 60k below.

And you know what is pretty funny? These years were back to back. So if you add those years together or start slicing and dicing when the 12 month period began and ended, the numbers start to look a lot more "normal"....closer to expectation.

Unfortunately, that is not the way our government keeps records as far as taxes. For most of us the year starts January 1 and runs through Dec 31 (some businesses on a fiscal year). So that is the way I do it. I start January 1, set my BR to a 100k amount and track wins/losses and EV from that point.

The entire way this board goes:

Alan asks a stupid, basic question. People answer him. He disputes the answer, and does not understand.

Smarter people give detailed explanations.

Alan says “That’s BS!”

Robbie chimes in with his ghastly insults to everyone and anyone.

Rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Okay kewlj says EV accumulates.

You read it here first.

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Alan doesn’t understand something. Heard it here first ��

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Nothing new about this. Since I joined this site just about a year ago, Alan has been on a year long "agenda" to discredit me. I mean he has the same agenda with other AP's but with me, it has been pretty blatant. I don't know what it is about me that Alan hates so much that he works so hard to discredit me. To his credit, I don't think Alan's issues with me revolve around my sexuality, as some other members clearly do. My good friend Axelwolf thought it would be funny to announce that on my first day here.

But again, I don't think that is Alan's issue. If I had to guess, I would say my age plays into it with Alan. While he, a degenerative gambling addict doesn't like AP's that play with an advantage and make money instead of "donate" as he does year after year, It seems to really get Alan's goat that I, someone in my mid 30's has had some limited success, over 1.1 million total AP, $930k from blackjack, which is what I really consider myself, a blackjack card counter.

So as I have shared some experiences and techniques that I have incorporated into my play, Alan just goes berserk, challenging everything I say. The funny thing is that none of the concepts or techniques that I employ and Alan argues are anything I came up with, as everything I do is learned and taken from other players before me. Sometimes I put my own little twist on things, some necessary because of conditions that have changed, but the basic concepts come from very successful players that came before me.

So I make reference to tracking two tables when the opportunity is available, or some other thing and Alan goes berserk, because he is not familiar with it. Nevermind that several very well known and longtime successful players, will tell you they do the same. Alan who knows all, isn't familiar so he goes nuts trying to discredit me. The really funny part is that somewhere during these marathon discussion that will ensue, Alan will say "I am not a blackjack player but.....". However that doesn't stop him from trying to disprove and discredit what he admits he has no idea about.

One of my favorites, is related to or part of the "tracking two tables discussion". The concept of having an advantage with partial count or incomplete count. To Alan this is inconceivable. But it is a proven mathematical fact. Sure it is better to have as much information as possible, but partial counts can identify some pretty big advantageous situations. Partial counts are the basis of "Wonging in", named for Stanford Wong (pen name) a very successful player and "math guy". And many of the top teams have employed some measure of "wonging" and partial counts.

But it is news to Alan, a non-blackjack player, so he does his thing, trolling, challenging, and trying to discredit, what he has no idea about. :(

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

The entire way this board goes:

Alan asks a stupid, basic question. People answer him. He disputes the answer, and does not understand.

Smarter people give detailed explanations.

Alan says “That’s BS!”

Robbie chimes in with his ghastly insults to everyone and anyone.

Rinse and repeat.

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Ahhh...yeah....pretty much. Sad isn't it? :confused: Unfortunately some of us have no other options, having been exiled from the more legit sites because of politics. Not the democrat/republican, liberal/conservative type politics, but politics among the AP community and those that run it.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

The concept of having an advantage with partial count or incomplete count. To Alan this is inconceivable. But it is a proven mathematical fact. Sure it is better to have as much information as possible, but partial counts can identify some pretty big advantageous situations.

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In reading through my post, I feel the need to add something about the above statement. Every single count that a card counter employs, including so-called higher level "super duper" counts, is actually a partial count! At no time does the card counter have "complete" information, unless the game is dealt to the final card, and you need a time machine for those opportunities.

So every single count employed is technically a "partial count". Sometimes that information is enough to identify an advantage (and raise bets), sometimes it is not. And sometimes the "partial count identified pretty negative situation, that you really should get the hell away from!:eek: Yep, the more information you have, the better, but partial counts are really the basis of card counting and have been since the inception of card counting, or at least since it began being talked about 60 years ago.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Unfortunately some of us have no other options, having been exiled from the more legit sites because of politics. Not the democrat/republican, liberal/conservative type politics, but politics among the AP community and those that run it.

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You're still sticking to that story, aren't you?

It was your comments which led to your exile.

QFIT played you like a fiddle.

Which does not mean you've nothing to offer; only that you were the one driving the car off the cliff.

Your AP posts are interesting, and I don't even play BJ; I am surprised you can still get away with counting for a living in this day and age.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I am surprised you can still get away with counting for a living in this day and age.

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I'm curious about that as well?

We know why dice setters are,allowed to set dice.
We know why keno players can chart numbers drawn.
We even know why slot players can tap on the screens.

LOL

Alan, I was referring to the fact that Las Vegas casinos seek out and employ countermeasures (pun intende).

KJ previously said he gets away with it because he doesn't play too long at any one location, and moves around (lots of BJ tables in sin city).

Still, you'd think him increasing his bet during a favorable count should be easy to detect?

How about switching tables? Seems like a dead giveaway for an expert card counter.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

How about switching tables? Seems like a dead giveaway for an expert card counter.

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Yes, it seems unlikely that casinos would tolerate a card counter, even if he was low key and played sporadically and conservatively, just doubling his bets when counts were positive. A good investigative reporter would want to discuss the issues with that story.

Of course, that same investigative reporter would be chomping at the bit, one presumes, to debunk tales of a video poker player taking even more money per year from casinos than the blackjack player, using a wild variance of obvious bets (sometimes tracked by player's cards), and playing an ostensibly negative expectation game. That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims. Virtually every one of the video poker player's posts would be met with incredulousness and comments.

Or not, eh?

Alan previously gave Singer a soapbox to explain his methods, via videos which are now on youtube.

I suppose some might call it enabling, while others might consider it reporting.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Still, you'd think him increasing his bet during a favorable count should be easy to detect?

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Increasing the wager really is NOT the problem. Many different kinds of players increase wagers during the shoe. People playing progressive betting systems. People chasing losses. Increasing wagers really is not the problem. As a matter of fact, watch non-AP players. They buy in for whatever amount and almost always bet small to begin with. At the $25 tables new players joining almost always start out betting $25 or $50. Some always bet that same low amount (flat bet). But many start varying wagers as the shoe goes on. If they have been losing they start betting more to get even (chasing). If the are winning, they start "chipping up" or increasing wagers. And then like I said there are the progression players that start doubling up losses or some other martingale betting system that doesn't work.

So increasing one's wager really is no tell at all. It is when a card counter reverts back to that minimum or small wager at the shuffle after playing larger towards the end of the last shoe that is the really big "tell". I eliminate this really big "tell" by making that one of my exit triggers. I exit at the shuffle after showing my spread (bigger bets) rather than revert back to that small wager (obvious).

The other thing that is really important is stakes. I play green to mid black. This means my top wager is in the $400 range at most places (except larger casinos during busier times). This is very important. $500 is a major threshold, where casinos and pit take notice. If you stay below that you are golden at all but the sweatiest joints and they aren't in my rotation anyway.

I don't remember who it was that said this on another thread, but it was suggested that the people behind the tables have tedious boring jobs and are just looking to get to the end of their shift without any major problems. If Kewl is playing at moderate levels, do they really want to get involved?

Plus, he varies in his appearance from a Trump mask to a Nixon mask every week.

I understand.

But there are only so many casinos in sin city, and by report you limit yourself to playing at, what, 20 or so different ones?

You've played regularly / near-daily for years now, which means you play the same ones over and over, albeit not daily; a sharp-eyed pit critter might recall having seen you before, winning regularly.

That might cause him to study your play, at which time he'd discover your modus operandi of hitting and running after scoring on a favorable count.

You or someone else posted something to the effect that the quality of surveillance in this regard leaves something to be desired, thus allowing you your opportunity.

I'm just saying I'm surprised you've been getting away with it and not being detected and backed off; obviously your plan is working.

A player who starts off at $25 or $50 and moves up to $400 gets noticed, especially if they're a repeat customer. If the dealer says nothing ("chip play") they'd lose their job. If the pit critters didn't notice a host would. Kewlj must have hosts coming up to him non-stop. How does a black chip bettor avoid hosts?

Alan, are you implying that KJ is not truthful about his claims of success in the green felt jungle?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

A player who starts off at $25 or $50 and moves up to $400 gets noticed, especially if they're a repeat customer. If the dealer says nothing ("chip play") they'd lose their job. If the pit critters didn't notice a host would. Kewlj must have hosts coming up to him non-stop. How does a black chip bettor avoid hosts?

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Step one, play unrated.

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

Step two, keep a chip inventory to avoid buy ins.

Step three, try to play when it's somewhat busy where the pit personnel are also busy.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

A player who starts off at $25 or $50 and moves up to $400 gets noticed, especially if they're a repeat customer. If the dealer says nothing ("chip play") they'd lose their job. If the pit critters didn't notice a host would. Kewlj must have hosts coming up to him non-stop. How does a black chip bettor avoid hosts?

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Step one, play unrated.

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Playing unrated doesn't stop a dealer, a pit critter or a host from taking notice.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step two, keep a chip inventory to avoid buy ins.

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Dealers and pit bosses will take note of what you bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

A player who starts off at $25 or $50 and moves up to $400 gets noticed, especially if they're a repeat customer. If the dealer says nothing ("chip play") they'd lose their job. If the pit critters didn't notice a host would. Kewlj must have hosts coming up to him non-stop. How does a black chip bettor avoid hosts?

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Step one, play unrated.

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Playing unrated doesn't stop a dealer, a pit critter or a host from taking notice.

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It does when you play 1 or 2 shoes at most then move on. Green level of blackjack play is small beans in most Vegas stores. Hell, some of the bigger places don't even rate $50 of less games.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step three, try to play when it's somewhat busy where the pit personnel are also busy.

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The red chip players might get overlooked, but green chip to four black chip players?

Have you ever played in a casino?

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step two, keep a chip inventory to avoid buy ins.

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Absolutely. Not only avoid buy-ins, but color-ups when you are exiting as well as cashing in at the cage, which is where the casino has the best chance to get a good photo of you. This is one of the areas I miss my partner the most (on a professional basis). He managed my chip inventory and he did so expertly. He really became very efficient at doing so. It is not as easy as you might think.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step three, try to play when it's somewhat busy where the pit personnel are also busy.

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The red chip players might get overlooked, but green chip to four black chip players?

Have you ever played in a casino?

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Our BP's routinely FLAT BET 2 × $400 or higher. We're NEVER bothered by hosts. Yes pit people watch, but hosts, not yet.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step one, play unrated.

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Playing unrated doesn't stop a dealer, a pit critter or a host from taking notice.

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It does when you play 1 or 2 shoes at most then move on. Green level of blackjack play is small beans in most Vegas stores. Hell, some of the bigger places don't even rate $50 of less games.

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You missed kewlj saying he goes up to $400.

Stop. Your hole is deep enough.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Step three, try to play when it's somewhat busy where the pit personnel are also busy.

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The red chip players might get overlooked, but green chip to four black chip players?

Have you ever played in a casino?

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Our BP's routinely FLAT BET 2 × $400 or higher. We're NEVER bothered by hosts. Yes pit people watch, but hosts, not yet.

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Of course you're not bothered by hosts. You don't play in real casinos.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I don't remember who it was that said this on another thread, but it was suggested that the people behind the tables have tedious boring jobs and are just looking to get to the end of their shift without any major problems.

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I have said this a number of times on several site, but perhaps you are referring to someone else. Bill Zender said things along these lines as well as a personal pit friend. Most pit critter's are working "joes". They just want to get through their day with minimal hassle just like anyone else. Do you think they want to come over to the table, tell a player he is not welcome to play and get flack and create bad vibes from other players? Of course not. BUT on the other hand, he doesn't want to get flack from a higher up that comes up to him later on and says, "there was a counter at your table that walked with 5 figures. Why didn't you do something about that".

So the thing to do is try not to put him in that second position. Short sessions and moderate bet levels with generally keep results down to where he doesn't have to answer for it.

Now the exception is what I call the "gung ho" type pit person. Usually a younger guy (male) looking to make a name for himself. Fortunately, usually you can spot him a mile off just from body language.

I find it hard to believe the security net at so many casinos have such big holes.

Great point MisterV.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I understand.

But there are only so many casinos in sin city, and by report you limit yourself to playing at, what, 20 or so different ones?

You've played regularly / near-daily for years now, which means you play the same ones over and over, albeit not daily; a sharp-eyed pit critter might recall having seen you before, winning regularly.

That might cause him to study your play, at which time he'd discover your modus operandi of hitting and running after scoring on a favorable count.

You or someone else posted something to the effect that the quality of surveillance in this regard leaves something to be desired, thus allowing you your opportunity.

I'm just saying I'm surprised you've been getting away with it and not being detected and backed off; obviously your plan is working.

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I have heard this for years on boards how stupid the casinos are. The dice setters tell us that they are successful and the casinsos see them being successful and wond do anything as simple as outlawing setting because the casinos are stupid. KJ may not say they are stupiid....but just indifferent joes who want to go home and see the family and not get involved in shit. I would think that a pit boss or someone in authority could make a name for himslef by legitimately thwarting people that the casino feels are stealing from them. That is the attitude of the casino...card counters are stealing/cheating . So wouldnt they promote or praise someone who "catches a thief" and tosses them out. I dont buy the "indifference of a working joe" or "the casinos are so stupid" angle at all. I think all casino workers want to do well and be promoted.(unless they are going to school for something bigger and do this to get by for now)

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

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The casinos rarely allowing interviews on the floor are probably not due to Rob's success rate at VP right ? I certainly hope you're not implying that that is the reason for their main floor reticence.

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Originally Posted by LarryS

That is the attitude of the casino...card counters are stealing/cheating

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The casino management is not taking the position that counters are cheating - they just don't like anyone winning money from them consistently.
Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos (they are not quite so concerned about who pushes the buttons), so there is less heat - I'm not saying there is no heat, of course there is, but you are more likely to get heat from other players (fellow vultures and mean-spirited/nosy civilians) than you are from casino personnel on machine plays.

IF the casinos dont allow card counting...and you count cards...then its defacto cheating(playing against their rules)....cheating that leads to stealing.

why else would they maintain photogrraphs of card counters and hire people to identify them. The card counters are cheating against either written or unwritten rules.

you can walk up to a craps table and say that you have a system..and proceed to win and no one will touch you. However if you walk up to a BJ table and say you have a card counting system....they will toss you before your first hand...before you can even prove to them that you can win.

and why would the "average joe" floor guy call security to thow you out as an announced card counter.....because its against the written or unwritten rules of the house....and going against those rules is a form of cheating and or stealing

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

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Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

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Originally Posted by LarryS

IF the casinos dont allow card counting...and you count cards...then its defacto cheating(playing against their rules)....cheating that leads to stealing.

why else would they maintain photogrraphs of card counters and hire people to identify them. The card counters are cheating against either written or unwritten rules.

you can walk up to a craps table and say that you have a system..and proceed to win and no one will touch you. However if you walk up to a BJ table and say you have a card counting system....they will toss you before your first hand...before you can even prove to them that you can win.

and why would the "average joe" floor guy call security to thow you out as an announced card counter.....because its against the written or unwritten rules of the house....and going against those rules is a form of cheating and or stealing

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If you get caught cheating at a casino you will be arrested and thrown in jail. If you get caught card counting you will get 86'ed from the casino. There's a difference.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

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Alan, why do you have to go idiot on everything? Can't you just snap out of it? Show us this documentation of Rob being barred from any and all casinos because of his video poker play. Then your dumass tries to make it look like they won't let you film because of Rob's video poker play. STFU! I quit taking pictures of the inside of casinos and putting them up in the road pic thread because I got to many warnings about taking pictures. Wise up.

i didnt say card counting was against the law where there are laws on the books that can place you in jail as viewed by the eyes of the LAW. I never talked about federal or state laws. I have no idea what you are talking about. Casinos have their own rules and "laws". And their own legal system and punishment based on their in house laws.

I said that the casinos in their world view card countng cheating and stealing and take measures to eliminate it as much as they can.

Mickeycrimm why do you go idiot? Rob was never banned from any and all casinos for his video poker play but specific casinos did block him.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

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Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

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Read again what you wrote. You wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being MORE DIRECTLY financed by other players and not the casinos" and that's just not true. There is no difference among video poker, craps and blackjack players.

I thought KJ was the only blackjack professional on this site. Boy was I wrong. Alan, larry, V, they all know the score about blackjack and getting away with it. You guys must have tons of experience. Tell us more. We are eager to learn.

Guy walks up to the blackjack table, looks at the pit boss, says "Hah ya'll doin? Muh names' Billy Bob Bubba Jones, jus' up from Bug Sprangs, Texus, and ah'm a ca'd countuh. Kin ah play heah?"

Pit boss smiles a predatory smile and says "Grab a seat!."

Mickeycrimm I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM and NYNY. It only took one session for the pit to nab me. And kewlj has escaped detection for how long?

I admit you guys really do stick together, even on a sinking ship..

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

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Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

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Read again what you wrote. You wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being MORE DIRECTLY financed by other players and not the casinos" and that's just not true. There is no difference among video poker, craps and blackjack players.

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So, if, for example, a must hit $10000 jackpot progressive on a slot is at $9999.99, which was brought up to this level by other players, and then is hit by someone besides those players, you are saying that this is not financed by those players, and that this is no different than someone counting cards at black jack right Alan ?
Or when a natural royal flush progressive hits 8000 coins (5 coin max per deal-draw) and someone (or some vp team) comes along and takes it down, that this is the same as card count grind outs right ?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickeycrimm I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM and NYNY. It only took one session for the pit to nab me. And kewlj has escaped detection for how long?

I admit you guys really do stick together, even on a sinking ship..

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since you admit to being a lifetime lose ar craps......what was the reason for the ban. were you holding up the game by setting dice or taking too much tome to throw? I can see where they feel that could cost them money. Otherwise whats the reason in your opinion because it has to be opinion..i doubt they gave you a detailed explanation...because they dont have to

LarryS sometimes I've won and sometimes I actually got lucky and my dice appeared to be controlled.

I've written on the Internet many times about being banned. There are posts on Las Vegas Advisor and WOV and on this forum too. MrV might even remember.

Bellagio also banned me for a short time but management later apologized for what happened.

No, I did not slow the game.

LarryS, the terminology you are using, "against house rules" or "against casino rules" reminds me a lot of the late poster PaigowDan at WoV. A dealer and casino employee, he used to use those term all the time.

Let me explain to you how it works. Except for the real "rinky dink casinos" like Joker's wild on Boulder highway\, there is a procedure for dealing with suspected card counters. A skill check is initiated. That skill check can be initiated from the floor or from above (surveillance), but the skill check is performed by surveillance. Generally they want to see a player moving money with the count through 2 or more shoes and since some shoes barely go positive (or negative) they may not even see bets being raised or lowered for several shoes. So in general this skill check takes 30 minutes or longer.

Now once the skill check is complete, then a decision is made as to what level of threat the players is. Many players are barely playing a winning game because they use too small a bet spread, chicken out putting out their larger bets. And even if the player is playing a winning game, he may be underfunded in which case he probably don't have the funds to win longterm, so even though he is placing larger wagers in +EV situation, normal negative variance will likely wipe him out.

Now once they decide the player is playing a winning game, they have to decide, what action to take. Maybe card counter Joe over there is in fact playing a winning game to the tune of $20 bucks an hour. But his wife a slot player, loses $75-$100 an hour Or his friend that he is playing with is not a good player and loses more than that. So do they want to tell Joe card counter he is no longer welcome to play and risk losing his wife and friends business? In addition as I said, it is rather bad publicity to come to the table and state that in front of other players. That is why in the past they always attempted to get the player away from the table, in the back room. That has sort of become a thing of the past because of so many lawsuits and Attorney Bob Nersesian doing a great job of informing players of their rights. So now backoff occur right at the table.

But it is a last resort. And it is a several step process, skill check which takes 30 minutes plus. Determine that the player is not only playing with an advantage, but playing enough of a winning game that he is a significant threat to the casino. Make sure that 86ing this player and whatever amount he is winning per hour does not cost even more by the loss of his wife, or friends. Any mistakes and pre-mature 86ing on the part of the floor person and he is getting reamed for it.

So yeah, unless there is a player that is definitively playing a strong game and a threat to the casino, where as he is playing big enough stakes, that a little positive variance and he walks with mid 4 or 5 figures, you generally see the floor people err on the side of caution.....way on the side of caution. In other words just try to get through their day with as little hassle as possible.

And by the way, when a pit critter 86's a player, there is paperwork involved. He has to file a report, stating that a skill check was completed and the player was an actual threat. And someone is likely to overlook that report and double check the skill check and be sure that Mr. Pit critter didn't just toss a good customer. So yeah, there is almost more incentive for the floor to look the other way and do nothing. You really want to make the option available to them and that is where playing short sessions and mid level stakes that are better tolerated come in to play.

You didn't mention progressive jackpots tableplay. You made a blanket statement.

Yes, progressive jackpots over and above the casino base payoff come from the players.

Next time be clear.

But all players whether they are blackjack, craps, video poker, slots, roulette, Paigow are playing against the casino.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

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Alan, why do you have to go idiot on everything? Can't you just snap out of it? Show us this documentation of Rob being barred from any and all casinos because of his video poker play. Then your dumass tries to make it look like they won't let you film because of Rob's video poker play. STFU! I quit taking pictures of the inside of casinos and putting them up in the road pic thread because I got to many warnings about taking pictures. Wise up.

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Mickey just because the facts don't fit your narrative doesn't mean you need to get all worked up again.

For the 4th time, I published my ban letter from Bellagio in GT as well as where else I was banned from in my "-EV" career. And right now I'm banned from playing at Silverton, South Point, GVR, Casino Fandango, and Eldorado. And of course, Rob Singer is the ONLY player to have provided absolute proof of being banned (not the pussified "restricted" like Dancer and other followers like to claim for perception) in the form of publication All these collection of self-proclaimed ap's ever do is make an assertion about themselves or other hot-shot "AP's" then expect the rest of the world to simply take their word for it because they say they're from that ap community--or get insulted and called names for not buying into what they're selling.

Wise up, bum.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

You didn't mention progressive jackpots tableplay. You made a blanket statement.

Yes, progressive jackpots over and above the casino base payoff come from the players.

Next time be clear.

But all players whether they are blackjack, craps, video poker, slots, roulette, Paigow are playing against the casino.

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ok fair enough then.

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Originally Posted by LarryS

i didnt say card counting was against the law where there are laws on the books that can place you in jail as viewed by the eyes of the LAW. I never talked about federal or state laws. I have no idea what you are talking about. Casinos have their own rules and "laws". And their own legal system and punishment based on their in house laws.

I said that the casinos in their world view card countng cheating and stealing and take measures to eliminate it as much as they can.

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Yes you did say this. They don't view it as cheating - the bans take place because they don't want consistently winning players. Of course they also don't want cheating players. But the two groups are distinct from one another and you are conflating the two.

There should be no question that casinos not only are able to spot even the most careful card counters easier than mickeycrimm grabs his own dick nightly----they share their info with casinos all over Nevada daily. And they permanently eject them. Don't want to believe it? Ask any casino manager, or ask to see proof. One might show it to you as they did me at the Peppermill.

Or....you could go on believing an anonymous armchair phony like kew. Notice how much time he spends posting at all "his" forums in-between him getting that clan of family paupers at his home who live similar to how the Chinese slugs do, to combine their ssdi & ebt cards so HE can pretend what a big shot/casino system evading armchair gambler he is. His fuel? Idiots like BBB want to believe his baloney.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

him getting that clan of family paupers at his home who live similar to how the Chinese slugs do, to combine their ssdi & ebt cards

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Really, YOU are going to go there? :rolleyes: I live in a 4 bedroom home in Summerlin. Besides myself there is one other person, my brother residing here. No one is on ssdi or ebt. I was last on ebt 17 years ago, for a total of 3 months while I was homeless and finishing high school.

Now you sir, live in a RV, in the driveway of your children, mooching electricity and internet service. And when one child gets fed up with you in Phoenix, you make the rounds to other children in North Dakota or Minnesota or somewhere and then start the cycle all over again.

You are cousin Eddie...except you are an uglier cousin Eddie. You make cousin Eddie look handsome and intelligent. :cool:

Can anyone think of any reasons (other than winning, of course) that someone would be trespassed? If you can think of other reasons, and those reasons are more likely than winning at a negative expectation game, then you have an Occam's Razor debate as to the likeliest causes of trespass.

In any event, getting trespassed isn't really a good thing. Yeah, if I get severe limits put on me, it's a fun story to boost my ego 10 years after the fact, but in the moment, it's a pain in the ass and a problem to be solved. Most offshores won't "shut you down," so to speak, because they don't want to go on record as banning a player. What they'll do is simply reduce your limits. I had done well at futures one place, and the coup de grace came when they allowed me to bet something like $1.74 on Sergio Garcia to win a golf tournament. Maybe it was $1.34. Anyway, it's a comical story 10 years later. It was not funny or a badge of honor at the time.

Bragging about getting trespassed is like bragging about the $500 ticket you just got for speeding. Yeah, you must have a fast car, but you might want to learn where and when to drive it that way.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickeycrimm I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM and NYNY. It only took one session for the pit to nab me. And kewlj has escaped detection for how long?

I admit you guys really do stick together, even on a sinking ship..

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I asked KJ how he avoided losing most of his stores over so many years as well.

No matter how careful/good one is, there are always unexpected events beyond your control. Unexpected pit change, former pit boss who is now a dealer, policy changes, mistaken identity, someone is having a bad day and they want to take it out on someone. A local gets pissed off because you hit or stood on something they didn't agree with, so they complain and turn you in, A dealer catches on and doesn't like his tips. I could go on and on.

I know many former card counter who had similar approaches to CC at even lower levels that would get pegged at some location every 2 or 3 months it seemed.

Perhaps JK is on the good side of variance as far as the unexpected things that can happen too CC's. Perhaps he's running bad in other aspects of life.

If you can believe you witnessed 18 yo's a row certainly you can believe that JK's skill with a good deal of luck has contributed to him still having enough stores left. It's not like he's never been detected and caught heat.

I was not allowed to throw at Bellagio, which was fine with me as it is too rich for my blood there. One day I was at an event and a bunch of us were playing craps at Luxor. I didn't present a card and bought in for only $500. My usual buy-in is $2500 or $5000. I was the first shooter. After a couple throws they started asking for my name or a card. I waived them off. Then the pit was on the phone and was talking upstairs and pointing at me. Then a few more guys came down and they were talking and looking at me as I continued to roll.

I quickly took down all of my bets other than pass line, grabbed my chips and left. I later hooked up with the other players and they told me I avoided getting kicked out and they were told to tell me to stay away. that was the only time I had played at Luxor. I had never done anything else at Luxor but walk through. So I certainly wasn't as lucky as Kewl in avoiding detection, and I have always wondered why in that situation it even happened.

I should add that I had taken Bellagio for $170,000 on an hour and 40 roll not too long prior thereto.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I asked KJ how he avoided losing most of his stores over so many years as well.

No matter how careful/good one is, there are always unexpected events beyond your control. Unexpected pit change, former pit boss who is now a dealer, policy changes, mistaken identity, someone is having a bad day and they want to take it out on someone. A local gets pissed off because you hit or stood on something they didn't agree with, so they complain and turn you in, A dealer catches on and doesn't like his tips. I could go on and on.

I know many former card counter who had similar approaches to CC at even lower levels that would get pegged at some location every 2 or 3 months it seemed.

Perhaps JK is on the good side of variance as far as the unexpected things that can happen too CC's. Perhaps he's running bad in other aspects of life.

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Axelwolf, I do not recall any such conversation with you in private or public about this topic. I am not saying such a conversation did not occur, but if it did, and this is what you took away from it, something was definitely lost in translation. To explain, I will do a brief recap of my history as a professional BJ player.


My first 5 and a half years, I was based out of Atlantic City, while I lived on the east coast. There were a couple trips to Connecticut and a few trips to Vegas in the later part of those 5.5 years, but the majority of my play at that time was Atlantic City, playing low limit. I didn't have much issues with Atlantic City the first 4 years or so, playing low limit, even as my max bet began to grow a little I was spreading red to light green. It was that final year when my bankroll grew to the point that I could start playing green to black that things almost immediately changed. Those stores and pit folks that didn't care about me spreading $5 and $10 to $75, all of the sudden began to care, when I started spreading $25 to $200.

Most people know AC can not bar players, or even backoff players (no more blackjack) like Las Vegas can. But what they could and did do was start cutting the shoe in half, meaning 50% penetration which is basically unplayable. Borgata where most of my play took place had a different tactic. They would "bet restrict" me only at a table. Despite that it was a $25 table with a card stating table minimum for everyone else, they would pull out a special card for me that said Minimum wager $5, maximum wager $50. They were essentially allowing me to spread 1-10 at the $5 amount, which years earlier I would have been ok with. Unfortunately at this point in my career, that was going to be a problem. With such a small rotation, very well known and counter measures mounting, I decided to head west.

Now when I arrived in Vegas, I didn't want the same thing to occur, that is to say, wear out my welcome, so I devised a plan of attack specifically suited to Las Vegas. On the early blackjack sites that I participated on there was a player with the handle "bigplayer". As you might guess from his name he spent many years as one of the big players on a very famous blackjack team (not MIT) and he is a member of the blackjack hall of fame, not that I put all that much into that status. But this guy knew his stuff. When he advised, people listened (like that old investing commercial). So the big player quote that always stuck with me, went something like this, "The advantage of Las Vegas is quantity, not quality". Those words were the foundation of my plan of attack...a large rotation of games, so I would only be seen several times a month and if I am doing it correctly....on different shifts. And playing short sessions and moving on to the next location. This makes those really big wins of $5,000+ that get noticed so easily, occur much less frequently.

There are also a couple other things I do, some I have talked about, like chip inventory and some I have never mentioned, but all are designed with longevity in mind. Longevity is my top priority. I have the bank roll to play much higher stakes, but I continue at my mid-level play because that offers the best chance at longevity. It is a level of play well tolerated.

I have more to say, so I am going to break this up. (end of Part 1)

OK, part 2. (and then I will go back and correct grammar/spelling as best I can).


So as I settled in to Las Vegas and my new style of play, I received many backoffs. In my first years, maybe 6-9 a year. At least one every couple months. It was part of the learning process. As time went on I got that down to 4-6 a year and lately 2-4 a year. It is part of the learning process of reading what is going on, what is being tolerated, or within the comfort level of different casinos and pit. Often I see heat coming before a backoff now, that is why the number is down, but I still occasionally misread a situation and get that "no more blackjack", or "you are too good for us" or whatever other lame statement they make.

Actually about my 2nd or third year here, I actually provoked several backoffs at a small, notoriously sweaty place downtown. There was an older pit guy that I wore out my welcome with and he would back me off saying I couldn't play blackjack. I would show up two days later and he would again back me off. Sometimes he would say "didn't I tell you, no more blackjack" and I would say, yeah that was yesterday, or last week. You could see the steam coming from his ears, but it told him that I knew the law, that a player must be given the opportunity to leave even if previously backed off. (that would be the Wilkenson case). So as you can see, sometimes my arrogance, didn't always serve me well. There was nothing to gain from that tactic.

So I have referred to backoffs only so far, as technically, in my mind that is all I have ever received. I don't consider that I have ever been trespassed, although there were 3 occasions that are close (but not in my mind). One was clearly only a backoff at a very small casino just off of Boulder Highway, south of the town of Henderson. You and I have discussed this property in other matters. So my backoff there, was really still a backoff, but since they only had like 2 blackjack tables and one shift per day (tables were open 4pm to 10pm or midnight), that backoff was for all intensive purposes a baring. No chance to play blackjack there. I was playing above there comfort level anyway, and knew it was just a matter of time. That was a fringe property in my rotation.

Number 2 that was close was again a problem with my arrogance. (I have since gotten that under control ;)) So I was playing at a very sweaty store in Pennsylvania, near Washington's winter encampment. Got backed off (in my mind). Went back the next day, got backed off again. And then one more time for good measure a week later during the same trip. I figured what the hell, this dump isn't part of my regular rotation. But those backoffs followed me back to Las Vegas, and I lost 3 stores that were in my regular rotation within days...just temporarily. That lesson is that Data base entries travel faster than airplanes. :rolleyes:

#3, just before I moved to Las Vegas, I took a month long trip to figure things out and be sure this is what I wanted to do. I stayed in a boarding house on Ogden Avenue right behind El Cortez. It was like $45 a week. Bathroom in the hall. That boarding house is now gone, and has been converted in to what is now the Cabana Suites, part of El Cortez.

So anyway, during this period, I was playing the strip, Caesar's and was backed off. Told no more BJ and escorted to the backroom. I was probably 25, looked barely 21 and they were out to intimidate me. I am sure that was heading for a full trespass. But in travel to the "back room" escorted by a couple suites and security guys, I stated that I wanted to call my attorney, Bob Nersesian. I hadn't met, nor knew Bob at the time, just his name and reputation. Upon mention of his name, the parade stopped, one of the suits turned to me and said "get the hell out of here". And I did. I ran half way to Mandelay Bay. ;)

So I have had my issues with backoffs. I don't consider that I have ever been trespassed, although I am now remembering a kind of oral trespass at South Point, that I have since ignored. But for the most part I have become pretty good at identifying potential situation before they occur. So it's not by accident that I have gotten better...I have worked hard at it. Longevity is my top priority and I work hard at it.

So in thinking about this topic for the past hour, I am remembering some things.

I was orally trespassed at South Point. I don't know if that counts. I didn't sign anything. But I was orally threatened with trespass arrest if I returned (which I have).

The small casino off of Boulder Highway, the General manager actually called my cell phone and left a voicemail that I could not play blackjack. Yes, he had my cellphone number. I played a promotion there every week that required me to play rated. The backoff there was really inevitable.

At El Cortez, the older pit guy that I tried to agitate actually followed me into the men's room, saying "no blackjack" "no Blackjack". As I stepped away from the urinal and stepped to the sink to wash my hands, I said to him, something like "be sure and wash your hands, Mo" (his name was Maurice). I think THAT is the moment he actually realized that he had followed me into the men's room. I really did get under that poor old guy's skin. :rolleyes: There was absolutely no benefit to doing so. It was really unprofessional of me. He is since retired.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Mickey just because the facts don't fit your narrative doesn't mean you need to get all worked up again.

For the 4th time, I published my ban letter from Bellagio in GT as well as where else I was banned from in my "-EV" career. And right now I'm banned from playing at Silverton, South Point, GVR, Casino Fandango, and Eldorado. And of course, Rob Singer is the ONLY player to have provided absolute proof of being banned (not the pussified "restricted" like Dancer and other followers like to claim for perception) in the form of publication All these collection of self-proclaimed ap's ever do is make an assertion about themselves or other hot-shot "AP's" then expect the rest of the world to simply take their word for it because they say they're from that ap community--or get insulted and called names for not buying into what they're selling.

Wise up, bum.

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Put up some proof you got banned, bitch. Running your punk ass mouth ain't proof. You demand that everyone else put up proof so put up some proof, bitch. Oh, that's right. For some reason you can't. That's because you are a low life stinking liar and a punk ass bitch.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

You didn't mention progressive jackpots tableplay. You made a blanket statement.

Yes, progressive jackpots over and above the casino base payoff come from the players.

Next time be clear.

But all players whether they are blackjack, craps, video poker, slots, roulette, Paigow are playing against the casino.

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It wasn't a blanket statement. He said machine hustlers.

KewlJ, thanks for the posts. This is why I read the forum, to learn. Fascinating info.

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Originally Posted by Deech

KewlJ, thanks for the posts. This is why I read the forum, to learn. Fascinating info.

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Yes, these told me a lot that I didn't know. Thanks for posting them.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

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This was a really misleading and diversionary post. Surprisingly dishonest. Most casinos are not going to allow videotaping on the casino floor . The clear implication here is that somehow Argentino's presence was the reason for the non-allowance of videotaping.

So, I will ask Mr. Mendelson directly, "Are you suggesting or implying that the videotaping was not allowed because Argentino was banned at most casinos? What precisely was said to you? Do you publicly stand by the statement that Argentino's winning was the reason you were not allowed to videotape at casinos, and can you name those casinos?"

Because, of course, I will ask those casinos if that was the case.

Just really dishonest regarding the videotaping.

As to "It's been well documented..." -- that phrase is passive voice, meaning, Mr. Mendelson does not have his hands on any of that evidence. He's presenting it second hand, based on Argentino's reportage. Now some people might ask (1) what was in the original banning letter from Bellagio -- did it state a banning due to winning, (2) what other casinos banned due to winning, and how does one verify that the banning excluded other reasons (such as vulgar or inappropriate behavior or non-payment of markers), and (3) why follow the "It's been well documented..." slop with a sentence explaining how hard it is to videotape on casino floors?

Without writing in advance for permission, most casinos will not allow videotaping involving people.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Show us this documentation of Rob being barred from any and all casinos because of his video poker play.

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Mickey, it looks like it's going to depend whether or not Rob is in a "mis-remembering" mood or not. ;)

I'M BANNED!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I called the executive offices at the Silverton, a place that won't allow me to play vp there any more because of being "too lucky". I asked if my situation was a result, in any way, of an OSN analysis.

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I'M NOT BANNED!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

That's what I did overnight at the Silverton--I trained a local "AP" who teaches 9th grade math in LV, and a few hours later someone who was on vacation from Michigan. They both won as they played 25c thru $2 ARTT and BOTH took advantage of hitting four face cards on $2 SDBP--and collecting $1200 W2G's--as a vehicle for their winning sessions. Even I won earlier in the evening while waiting, but I won less than either of them, which I enjoyed. It was a worthwhile trip and a good night all-around.

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I"M NOT BANNED!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Did you check the date of my post about Silverton? Have you also checked to see how many times their mgmt. has changed since?

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I"M BANNED!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

And right now I'm banned from playing at Silverton, South Point, GVR, Casino Fandango, and Eldorado.

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Question for kewlj: with your history how do you manage to return to the casinos where you were noticed? Do you use disguises or do memories lapse?

I returned to MGM months after I was told I could not shoot dice there. I did go to a craps table and played but I bet without being the shooter. Within minutes of my arrival at the table some suit showed up with two security guards and watched me at the table. I'm sure they were there to be sure I didn't try to be the shooter. I'm sure their facial recognition software saw me as soon as I was in the pit. I did not use a card.

By the way, it was an early Sunday morning. $5 minimum bets and my sister was the shooter. She rolled for about a half-hour and we (she, husband, me) left. She is a 100% random shooter who just got lucky.

Mickeycrimm, Eddie, others: Rob Singer should post his timeline for when bans were made.

It's interesting also that kewlj has now remembered with detail how he has had trouble with casinos in Vegas when previously he had no problems because casino employees didn't care.

Mendlebread, Mendlebread, Mendlebread... nope still not working... Fucking Bullshit.