This is an outright fucking lie, maggot. No more playing footsy with your ass. You're just a punk ass troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
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This is an outright fucking lie, maggot. No more playing footsy with your ass. You're just a punk ass troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Hey, Spock, or should I say Spook. Lol. I’ve noticed that’s kind of an AP thing to do, meaning slightly twist a person’s handle and think that makes you clever. Spock/Spook, you can believe whatever you want to... it doesn’t mater to me. No matter how many articles I post, it won’t prove anything. You think these guys were incencent since that’s the way you’re wired. In your world, the casinos are always in the wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock
At the very least, I think these five people are unethical since they took advantage of a computer bug. What they did is similar to getting free food out of a vending machine when it’s malfunctioning. An AP would probably think this is an advantage play...I think it’s unethical. This is what makes you and me different.
Regardless of how these five people found this play (either by an inside sources or through blind luck), they knew what they did is take advantage of a bug in the machine’s program. They were making 5 times the payout so they knew something was wrong with the program. Therefore, they tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible.
I’m surprised the judge didn’t make these people pay this money back to the casino, like the judge did in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. But as we all know, each judge is different. Btw, judges have ruled in the favor of the caisbo when a bug happens in a big jackpot payout. I know this gets APs upset too.
To be able to sleep at night, you need to believe what you believe. I don’t want to post an article that might make you doubt your beliefs. I can tell this case is very important to you. I think they are guilty, but I can’t prove it. No article will do that. And at the very least, I think these 5 people have no ethics.
Usually I just roll my eyes at people claiming the ethical high ground, but I looked more closely at Bob21's postings.
I'm sure he realized that his "free food out of a vending machine" analogy above was half a step off. If he instead compared it to "free cigarettes out of a cigarette machine," both in addictive correlation and ethics, he would have been closer to the real world mark. But that would have been less helpful to the casino industry, so he went with food.
And then we can get into the ethics of someone posting anonymously, blathering opinions that have no real world fallout for his actual self. Is that ethical? Going to bat for an industry from the safety of anonymity? Why not take things in a truly ethical direction and put your real name on your postings, so everyone can attach a face to the opinions? That would be the truly ethical thing to do. Have the courage of your convictions, or opinions, or blather. Sitting somewhere behind a pseudonym, with no ramifications for whatever you spout, isn't quite as ethical as standing up and taking responsibility for your opinions, and the consequences of those opinions.
Instead, Bob21 is afraid to use the same pseudonym across forums. That's hilarious.
I guess that's the difference between someone like Bob21 and me. According to him, ethical counts for something. Compared to him, I'm ethical. Who knew? And unafraid. He's a coward -- defending an exploitative industry without absorbing any of the real world consequences of having defended that industry.
How manipulative is someone who can't even use the same alias in different anonymous venues? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.
Yeah, Bob21, you're a real ethical warrior.
LOL.
This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I’ve read in a while. What does logging into different forums with different handles have anything to do with ethics? I could see it if I was trying to accomplish something by doing this. None of my handles have anything to do with my other handle. All my handles state what I think. Am I unethical since I use different passwords to log onto different acounts? In your world view, I probably am.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietzQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Hey, Spock, or should I say Spook. Lol. I’ve noticed that’s kind of an AP thing to do, meaning slightly twist a person’s handle and think that makes you clever. Spock/Spook, you can believe whatever you want to... it doesn’t mater to me. No matter how many articles I post, it won’t prove anything. You think these guys were incencent since that’s the way you’re wired. In your world, the casinos are always in the wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock
At the very least, I think these five people are unethical since they took advantage of a computer bug. What they did is similar to getting free food out of a vending machine when it’s malfunctioning. An AP would probably think this is an advantage play...I think it’s unethical. This is what makes you and me different.
Regardless of how these five people found this play (either by an inside sources or through blind luck), they knew what they did is take advantage of a bug in the machine’s program. They were making 5 times the payout so they knew something was wrong with the program. Therefore, they tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible.
I’m surprised the judge didn’t make these people pay this money back to the casino, like the judge did in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. But as we all know, each judge is different. Btw, judges have ruled in the favor of the caisbo when a bug happens in a big jackpot payout. I know this gets APs upset too.
To be able to sleep at night, you need to believe what you believe. I don’t want to post an article that might make you doubt your beliefs. I can tell this case is very important to you. I think they are guilty, but I can’t prove it. No article will do that. And at the very least, I think these 5 people have no ethics.
Usually I just roll my eyes at people claiming the ethical high ground, but I looked more closely at Bob21's postings.
I'm sure he realized that his "free food out of a vending machine" analogy above was half a step off. If he instead compared it to "free cigarettes out of a cigarette machine," both in addictive correlation and ethics, he would have been closer to the real world mark. But that would have been less helpful to the casino industry, so he went with food.
And then we can get into the ethics of someone posting anonymously, blathering opinions that have no real world fallout for his actual self. Is that ethical? Going to bat for an industry from the safety of anonymity? Why not take things in a truly ethical direction and put your real name on your postings, so everyone can attach a face to the opinions? That would be the truly ethical thing to do. Have the courage of your convictions, or opinions, or blather. Sitting somewhere behind a pseudonym, with no ramifications for whatever you spout, isn't quite as ethical as standing up and taking responsibility for your opinions, and the consequences of those opinions.
Instead, Bob21 is afraid to use the same pseudonym across forums. That's hilarious.
I guess that's the difference between someone like Bob21 and me. According to him, ethical counts for something. Compared to him, I'm ethical. Who knew? And unafraid. He's a coward -- defending an exploitative industry without absorbing any of the real world consequences of having defended that industry.
How manipulative is someone who can't even use the same alias in different anonymous venues? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.
Yeah, Bob21, you're a real ethical warrior.
LOL.
This is another thing you’ve got to love about APs. They have this code of ethics, which they constantly call each other out on, but they themselves violate. Look at kJ, he called me out for using different handles, but used a sock puppet to get access to a site he was banned on. Who does that but a person who has little ethics? If Dan should ban me on this site, I’m not coming back. I’m not creating a sock puppet to get back on.
Btw, I know several APs who use different handles on different sites. Three is Three on BJTF and Dummy on blackjackinfo. Has he violated some moral code amongst APs?
Most APs will stoop to almost any level to take advantage of a casino. This is why the judge ruled against Phil Ivey in the edge sorting case. My guess is if this same judge was presiding over this case, it might have gone different.
Btw, where is this code of ethics book APs live by? It appears to be very different from what is considered normal. APs use false names, make up stories, hide their ID, but somehow this is ethical. I guess it is in their world.
Listen Ditz, not everyone is trying to sell some form of sports betting or subscriptions for personal gain. Who the fuck here cares about your back in the day sports betting history? It’s for your benefit not to be anonymous. Trying to get gamblers to pay for your betting picks is an indication you’re a broken-down shoe and have nothing to lose. Most would never be on one of these forums if they had to use their real name. Just imagining nut jobs like you tracking me down is a freighting thought.
How about giving your friends here a lock on a game that’s current without a fee?
It’s getting played out when every chance you get you want jump on everyone that’s anonymous.
The only thing played out is seeing you massacre the English language day after day....Freighting is when you transport goods from one place to another....frightening is something that invokes fear...spend some of those millions you like to brag about on a “English made easy for Imbeciles” book.....get it dummy?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Someone get a mop please. The drool is all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
I got NOTHING?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackholeSomeone get a mop please. The drool is all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
You seemed have lost by playing the illegal card so now you want to play the ethical card in the same game and cal it a wild card to boot. That's fine if you want to talk about ethics the AP game but lets stick to one game at a time and use one card at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I’ve read in a while. What does logging into different forums with different handles have anything to do with ethics? I could see it if I was trying to accomplish something by doing this. None of my handles have anything to do with my other handle. All my handles state what I think. Am I unethical since I use different passwords to log onto different acounts? In your world view, I probably am.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietzQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Usually I just roll my eyes at people claiming the ethical high ground, but I looked more closely at Bob21's postings.
I'm sure he realized that his "free food out of a vending machine" analogy above was half a step off. If he instead compared it to "free cigarettes out of a cigarette machine," both in addictive correlation and ethics, he would have been closer to the real world mark. But that would have been less helpful to the casino industry, so he went with food.
And then we can get into the ethics of someone posting anonymously, blathering opinions that have no real world fallout for his actual self. Is that ethical? Going to bat for an industry from the safety of anonymity? Why not take things in a truly ethical direction and put your real name on your postings, so everyone can attach a face to the opinions? That would be the truly ethical thing to do. Have the courage of your convictions, or opinions, or blather. Sitting somewhere behind a pseudonym, with no ramifications for whatever you spout, isn't quite as ethical as standing up and taking responsibility for your opinions, and the consequences of those opinions.
Instead, Bob21 is afraid to use the same pseudonym across forums. That's hilarious.
I guess that's the difference between someone like Bob21 and me. According to him, ethical counts for something. Compared to him, I'm ethical. Who knew? And unafraid. He's a coward -- defending an exploitative industry without absorbing any of the real world consequences of having defended that industry.
How manipulative is someone who can't even use the same alias in different anonymous venues? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question.
Yeah, Bob21, you're a real ethical warrior.
LOL.
This is another thing you’ve got to love about APs. They have this code of ethics, which they constantly call each other out on, but they themselves violate. Look at kJ, he called me out for using different handles, but used a sock puppet to get access to a site he was banned on. Who does that but a person who has little ethics? If Dan should ban me on this site, I’m not coming back. I’m not creating a sock puppet to get back on.
Btw, I know several APs who use different handles on different sites. Three is Three on BJTF and Dummy on blackjackinfo. Has he violated some moral code amongst APs?
Most APs will stoop to almost any level to take advantage of a casino. This is why the judge ruled against Phil Ivey in the edge sorting case. My guess is if this same judge was presiding over this case, it might have gone different.
Btw, where is this code of ethics book APs live by? It appears to be very different from what is considered normal. APs use false names, make up stories, hide their ID, but somehow this is ethical. I guess it is in their world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Sorry, blackhole, you're just another anonymous coward, as Singer likes to say. All this time, all these years on this forum, and you have yet to find one single solicitation by me to anyone. Zero. Nada. None.
The problem with you, blackhole, is that you have no gambling expertise, so your presumed expertise on this forum is debunking people who do. You don't know what the hell you're doing in terms of gambling. You never have. Nothing wrong with that. Keep up the good work.
Being on this forum does me zero good -- unless I'm somehow soliciting people. And God knows, if you had any evidence I ever solicited anyone on any forum, you'd have put it right here for all to see. But you haven't. I wonder why.
Go ahead. Try to hire me. Use some new names, some other forums, some backdoor PMs. Use anonymous handles. Use real names. See what responses you get. Or maybe you already have...and you already received your responses.
Blackhole's entire line of arguing that I'm not anonymous on this site because I'm selling something is absurd.
I've been on this site since 2011. In eight years, if blackhole had encountered one instance of me soliciting someone, or PMing them in an attempt to get some kind of business, or drumming up business on this site or others, he would have simply posted it. If he really believed I was here to get some kind of business, the obvious way to prove that -- without a doubt -- would be to engage me or have someone else engage me. Then post the interaction. Wham bam, absolute proof. Not hard to do.
But blackhole either did that and failed, or he won't do it because he knows what the answer will be.
So you have an anonymous dude, who could easily prove or disprove his premise, who refuses to prove what he's claiming. And he'll keep claiming that's what I'm doing when he could easily pin it down one way or the other.
Man, that is sleazy and dishonest.
Hey, we have different opinions. That’s all. Based on the limited information I had at the time, I said I thought they were probably guilty, but the prosecution didn’t have enough evidence to convict them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfYou seemed have lost by playing the illegal card so now you want to play the ethical card in the same game and cal it a wild card to boot. That's fine if you want to talk about ethics the AP game but lets stick to one game at a time and use one card at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I’ve read in a while. What does logging into different forums with different handles have anything to do with ethics? I could see it if I was trying to accomplish something by doing this. None of my handles have anything to do with my other handle. All my handles state what I think. Am I unethical since I use different passwords to log onto different acounts? In your world view, I probably am.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
This is another thing you’ve got to love about APs. They have this code of ethics, which they constantly call each other out on, but they themselves violate. Look at kJ, he called me out for using different handles, but used a sock puppet to get access to a site he was banned on. Who does that but a person who has little ethics? If Dan should ban me on this site, I’m not coming back. I’m not creating a sock puppet to get back on.
Btw, I know several APs who use different handles on different sites. Three is Three on BJTF and Dummy on blackjackinfo. Has he violated some moral code amongst APs?
Most APs will stoop to almost any level to take advantage of a casino. This is why the judge ruled against Phil Ivey in the edge sorting case. My guess is if this same judge was presiding over this case, it might have gone different.
Btw, where is this code of ethics book APs live by? It appears to be very different from what is considered normal. APs use false names, make up stories, hide their ID, but somehow this is ethical. I guess it is in their world.
After I’ve researched this some more, I have changed my mind and think they are probably innocent as charged but they definitely didn’t do any typical AP play. They took advantage of a bug in a program, which I guess is technically legal.
I also said based on the evidence the casino and gaming company had at the time, I can see why they thought they were guilty.
With all this said, I could be wrong. They could be guilty but did a good job covering their tracks. At the very least what they did crossed the boundaries of what most people would consider ethical.
They weren’t playing a fair game and happened to score a big win. I think we can all agree on that.
I realize there are a lot of side arguments here about ethics, advertising services, IRS regulations, carrying cash, etc., but after reading the additional info I still think these APs did nothing wrong playing a keno game with enhanced payoffs.
Now, if in the future it's determined they were fed inside info about machines that were "enhanced" outside of official channels then everything changes.
But as of now it looks to me that they found a machine with an enhanced pay table and played it. Again they are not responsible for filing CTRs and there's nothing illegal about betting less to avoid W2Gs and hand pays.
Just to be clear. The payoffs were five times what the paytable showed on the machine so these people knew these machines had a bug in them. They also knew had to trigger this bug so these machines paid off five times what they were supposed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
They did not find some machines that had favorable pay tables...they found some machines that were basically spitting out cash, as long as you knew the magic code to make them do this.
I don’t see this as much different than an ATM accidentally spitting out more cash than is in your account. And this has happened. When it does, the person has to pay this money back to the bank. That person is not guilty of anything, but they also can’t keep the cash.
This is how the judge ruled in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. He said Phil didn’t cheat, but he also couldn’t keep the money he won since he didn’t play the game in a fair way. I know some people don’t agree with this ruling. I’m just saying if you’d apply this same logic to this case, these people should be giving this money back to the casino. They didn’t cheat, but they also weren’t playing a fair game.
OK, you freaking A-hole, let's get a couple things straight here. Don't freaking compare me to your fraud friend Three at BJTF. Three is a fraud! He is a lifelong low limit player, who ran some sort of family business and played blackjack recreationally at the red chip level for decades. Then all of the sudden he announced ahead of time that he was going to transform himself (or his image) and be known as one of the blackjack greats. Next thing you know he says he is a fulltime professional player, and he starts feeding this bull-shit super-duper count down everyone's throat with all sorts of claims that were and continue to be mathematical impossible. 500% increase over traditional card counting, playing with no variance....just win regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I and two other known professional players called these claims out. I was banned. The other left on their own when Norm decided to protect Three and this fraudulent misleading mathematical impossible bullshit. Your Hero Three said nothing. Finally several years later Noted blackjack mathematician and expert Don Schlesinger, finally was able to call out and debunk all of Three's claims.
This freaking guy intentionally lied and made shit up, shit that was mathematically impossible for the purpose of misleading players. And a whole bunch of new, young players were mislead. He is not an AP, he is a fraud and a shithead. (very similar to the Singer situation here)
And when he changed names when he went to BJinfo, it was specifically to avoid a confrontation with me. He tried to hide his identity, so I wouldn't go off on him.
Now you are going to compare that to me using a sockpuppet (spiderman) at BJTF, so that I could share my experiences with cheating involving an ASM at a casino here in Las Vegas and warn other players? I went back to that forum where I was banned ONLY to share this experience and warn other players. At the very least bring it to their attention so players could decide for themselves. And this wasn't an accusation that I took lightly. I tracked some 200 shoes of results to make sure I knew damn well what I was talking about. And then I acquired the ASM model in question at great expense, had it shipped half way around the world to make sure the equipment had the capability of performing the cheating that I was accusing. The only thing I was wrong about was this capability is not built in when it leaves the factory, but it is very easily reprogrammed. So easy, that has to be intentional.
So anyway, you are going to compare a guy who intentionally lied for the purpose of misleading many players throughout the community with me, who went back under a sockpuppet to warn members of the community about a specific cheating situation?
Bob21, I have gone easy on you, but you are an asshole. You are a troll and I believe either a casino employee or have some sort of association with the casino Industry. Yeah, you might be a recreational card counter on the side (many dealers and pit are), but your loyalty lies with the casino industry.
The reason most AP's use the same handle on different forums is that we build up credibility over years, decades of participating on different forums. You know exactly who you are talking to and dealing with. No one is hiding...except from the casino industry that wants to shut us down. We aren't hiding and we aren't running.
In my own case, a decade ago, when I did something on these forums to protect myself (the fake death thing) after I was robbed at gunpoint outside my home, I was very unpopular among my AP friends and peers. Some still hold that against me even today. At that time, several members of the community recommended that I stop posting for 6 months or a year and then re-emerge under a new handle. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't run or hide. That is a troll thing to do. Real AP's use the same handle, so people in the community know who they are.
And while I am at it, let me address THIS bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
"the casinos do the right thing and we are the parasites".
Have you been to Las Vegas? And I am not talking about the strip. Go to some of the local outlying casinos that cater to the locals on a Friday evening. Places like some of the Boyd properties, LongHorn, Bighorn, Jokers Wild, the casinos in downtown Henderson, Jerry's Nugget, Lucky Club, Cannery, The wild wild west, Silver7, Ellis Island.
The places that feed player booze (long past the legal limits) until they have no idea what they are doing.
The places offering paycheck cashing bonuses so Daddy will cash and spend his paycheck long before he makes it home to pay the rent and feed the kids.
The places that cash Government check, including tax refunds.
The places that for years (until direct deposit) cashed social security checks so seniors would blow their money before they paid the rent.
The casino industry doesn't do the right thing....the casino industry is a predatory industry!
Okay kJ, I get all that. Other than not understanding the AP code of ethics (someone forget to give me the manual, lol), explain to me how using different handles on different sites is some violation of an ethical code. Bosox just made a post about me on BJTF and said all my handles are very consistent. This shows I have no agenda. If I’d do it again, I’d probably use the same handle, but I’d still say the same things. I only have one handle for each site. I’ve never tried to keep my different handles a secret.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
The day I registered on BJTF I was just trying to access some link from a post and it said I don’t have access to this link without registering. So what did I do? I randomly typed in a bunch of letters and numbers to register. I didn’t give it much thought, just like I don’t with my passwords.
Now when I registered here, I did think about it. I registered here mainly because I wanted to ask Moses a question about his count since he talked about it so much. I didn’t want to use dbs since I thought he might not take me seriously and he’d just start calling me names. This is what some APs do when they see who is asking a question. So I used the handle I thought I was using on bj21, but I got it wrong by a couple numbers.
I really didn’t know this handle thing was that big of a deal. But I know see it is. It’s got Bosox so upset he made a special post about me on BJTF. I’m not going to reply or deal with that site anymore. Bosox has some serious problems if this handle thing gets him so upset.
Anyway, I can’t go back in time to correct my different handles so it is what it is. I can tell this has the AP community in a frazzle, which doesn’t take much.
And btw, I don’t really consider myself an AP as such. I’m more a part time red chip counter on weekends. And I didn’t lie when I said I like your posts. I’ve got a lot out of them and always enjoy your stories on your experiences. I think I’ve mentioned that from more than one handle. Lol
I am not going to speak for or answer for BoSox. Ask him. But I suppose he was frustrated and annoyed at the multiple handle thing just like I am. Regardless of whether you did so unintentionally or not, it is just annoying. All I can say is almost all legitimate AP's use the same handle or a very slight variation. And generally the trolls use multiple handles.
In my own case, I knew something was up with you when you got here. The way you were kissing Moses ass, my first though was that you were a moses sock puppet. I was wrong about that I guess, but I knew something wasn't right with all your ass kissing and playing both sides. After some interaction, I decided just to ignore you, and pay little attention to you.
So then I go to BJinfo, and spend time and effort responding to a member that seemed sincere, only to later (yesterday) find out it is you. WTF?
I mean as an AP that wants to share my experiences, I am suppose to spend mega time, going through posts with different handles, trying to figure out who is who and who is legit and who is trolling? I mean come on!
Kj, one more comment about Three being my hero. Where did that come from? He is constantly attacking me, and he’s even had me on “ignore” for a while. He once took a screen shot to show me I was on his ignore list. This is when he replied to one of my posts. You can’t make this stuff up...showing someone you’re on their ignore list while replying to their post. That’s a classic. I wonder if that approach is in some AP manual. Lol
I didn't say you were his hero. I said he is your hero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
You know what, as much as I am not fond of Three, I give him credit for recognizing that you are/were a problem.
Really funny stuff. An AP "code of ethics"? Hahaha!! If they could keep their lies straight while pontificating on forums, they'd STILL be so full of shit that they wouldn't know whether to put their butts or their faces on toilet seats.
Even funnier is how people who trigger machines to make higher payouts than they're suppose to because of bugs, are idolized at the "altar of the AP". but when these idols are just too stupid to carry the scam to its fullest--just as in the Kane Video Poker blunder--the AP community is suddenly questioning the true value of its secret handshake.
And kew....get a real life, will you? You act like this forum nonsense is the end-all. No wonder you're weird.
Well Bob21 that combination of knowing the code to get bigger pays is certainly suspicious but what's the crime? Was the machine tampered with and did they have inside information? Or did they experiment by testing known flaws and discovered one that worked?
Define the criminal activity.
Let me tell you about how TV stations in LA have manipulated the Nielsen TV ratings. In the past it was known that Nielsen had more "diaries" and meters in the Long Beach area. So the TV stations increased their news coverage of Long Beach during the ratings period.
I think what the TV stations did is no different than what these players did. And no one accused the TV stations of committing a crime when they covered more Long Beach news to boost their ratings.
Shut the fuck up Argentino, you pathetic, ancient piece of shit. You are a troll and you look the part. You may be the ugliest and stupidest old fool I have ever encountered. You are the "missing" link.
Climb back under your rock Argentino, you maggot.
You’re missing the point Kj. Do you ever look at the content? That’s all the matters to me. Why do you care who is asking the question? If it’s a good question, then I answer it. Why does it matter to you who made the post?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Every question I asked on blackjackinfo was legitimate. I wanted to know your opinion. If you didn’t want to give it that’s your choice. There was no troll intent on any of those questions or posts. Why does it matter to you who asked the questions?
I think that’s the problem here and on other sites. People pick sides and then defend that side regardless of what is being said. And the side they don’t agree they will go into name calling mode.
I actually think it’d make for a better format and discussions if people didn’t know who made the posts. People wouldn’t be so keyed in on who made the post and more on the content. I wonder why that’s not done. I guess then people wouldn’t know who to attack. Lol
I have never said that AP's are angels. Some have more morals than others, just like everything else. As a matter of fact, there is some connection between unethical opportunities that puts some players that do things I don't find acceptable among us. That's the way it is. I don't vouch for or support all AP's or all AP plays. I do and support what I am comfortable with.
And yeah, Monet will jump all over me, because he thinks all AP's and all people in general have more bad than good in them.
But I will tell you this, I will put AP's as a group up against the casino industry as far as morals, and the AP's as a group (even including the worst of us) will win, hands down.
Alan, have you read any of my recent posts? I’m agreeing with you. What they did was not a crime if they didn’t get this “code” from an “inside source”. I found one article that went through how the casino caught them. It was during a monthly audit when they saw they were a couple hundred thousand short. They then went back and looked at video and saw these people punching in a bunch of buttons on these keno machines that triggered the bug, and these machines spitting out cash. I know they spit out tickets that had to redeemed for cash at the cage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Reading some of the articles here is what I think happened. Someone knew about the bug and word spread. Binnings is the one who found out about it and he told his friends, who drove there to exploit it. The question is how did Binnings find out about it? From what I can tell, he’s not reveling his source and he isn’t required to by law. At any rate, it doesn’t appear these five discovered the magic code on their own.
What does it matter? Maybe I don't want to help someone that spends 90% of their time trashing me, attempting to discredit me and then turns around and under a different handle acts all sincere and wants my advice. I find it dishonest. And I don't appreciate someone deceiving me into helping them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Now I gotta go to work.
What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhat does it matter? Maybe I don't want to help someone that spends 90% of their time trashing me, attempting to discredit me and then turns around and under a different handle acts all sincere and wants my advice. I find it dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
Personally, your humor is a lot wittier than the 4th grade duds that broke,gutless,shitbag Moses tries to pull off....I do think it’s quite humorous him trying to goad you into what to say and who to do battle with from his deserted Broke Shitbag Island forum that he posts at by himself...equally amusing is that he responds to every post made here...sort of like a little hobbit with his nose pressed against the bakeshop window, with no money to go inside and buy anything...would expect someone with such a successful BJ career (maybe BJ as in blow job withTater) and Sandra Bullock by his side to be much too busy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhat does it matter? Maybe I don't want to help someone that spends 90% of their time trashing me, attempting to discredit me and then turns around and under a different handle acts all sincere and wants my advice. I find it dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
How about when you wrote this post on BJ INFO bjo32, you were not trying to discredit anyone, yah right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhat does it matter? Maybe I don't want to help someone that spends 90% of their time trashing me, attempting to discredit me and then turns around and under a different handle acts all sincere and wants my advice. I find it dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
"Excellent post Rattle1! I wasn’t going to weigh in on this topic since it’s such a ridicules claim (for all the reasons you’ve already mentioned) that I can’t believe any intelligent person believes it.
“Beast Mode” is one of the more amusing things APs have come up with. The funny thing is there are some APs that actually think they have exploited it. I don’t know who are dumber, the APs that believe in “beast mode” or the ones who think they have exploited it. Lol.
I’ve also had a debate with KewJ on Mindplay, which I won’t get into here. But it’s much more complicated than what KewlJ and other APs believe. This technology went by the wayside because it was flawed and the casino staff and public didn’t like it. It’s not because it was designed to be a cheating device.
As far as casinos and cheating, does it go on? Of course. There are about 500 casinos in USA. It would be ridicules to think someone somewhere in the casino industry hasn’t cheated at sometime now or in the past. What people like to do is point out some isolated case of cheating here or there and then indict a whole industry of doing it all the time. These same people do the same thing with busisness. They point out one or two corrupt businesses (think Enron and Worldcom) and claim this shows all business cheat and are corrupt.
It’s good to see a like-minded AP who has some common sense."
It is people like you Bob that play both sides of a person first by reading others questions or one of your own and then thanking them for giving sound advice then depending how you get out of bed the next day you may slam them. Good job. Why are you now fucking with Moses?
Bosox, these are the two things I didn’t agree with kj on, “mindplay” and “beast mode”. Not agreeing with him on these two topics does not mean I’m trying to discredit him or I don’t believe his story.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxHow about when you wrote this post on BJ INFO bjo32, you were not trying to discredit anyone, yah right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
"Excellent post Rattle1! I wasn’t going to weigh in on this topic since it’s such a ridicules claim (for all the reasons you’ve already mentioned) that I can’t believe any intelligent person believes it.
“Beast Mode” is one of the more amusing things APs have come up with. The funny thing is there are some APs that actually think they have exploited it. I don’t know who are dumber, the APs that believe in “beast mode” or the ones who think they have exploited it. Lol.
I’ve also had a debate with KewJ on Mindplay, which I won’t get into here. But it’s much more complicated than what KewlJ and other APs believe. This technology went by the wayside because it was flawed and the casino staff and public didn’t like it. It’s not because it was designed to be a cheating device.
As far as casinos and cheating, does it go on? Of course. There are about 500 casinos in USA. It would be ridicules to think someone somewhere in the casino industry hasn’t cheated at sometime now or in the past. What people like to do is point out some isolated case of cheating here or there and then indict a whole industry of doing it all the time. These same people do the same thing with busisness. They point out one or two corrupt businesses (think Enron and Worldcom) and claim this shows all business cheat and are corrupt.
It’s good to see a like-minded AP who has some common sense."
It is people like you Bob that play both sides of a person first by reading others questions or one of your own and then thanking them for giving sound advice then depending how you get out of bed the next day you may slam them. Good job. Why are you now fucking with Moses?
So you’re saying two intelligent people can’t disagree and debate a topic? I thought the debate between Kj and me on “mindplay” was a good one. We didn’t agree with each other, but we also didn’t get in the mud and start calling each other names. That’s rare in forum debates.
So you’re saying two people should never disagree on a forum? If that’s the case, what good is a forum? Isn’t this where we exchange ideas, and sometimes disagree with each other?
The problem with APs, you included Bosox, is anytime someone disagrees with you, they are immediately called a troll.
When the presidental candidates debated on national tv, did you see that as trolling? Based on your definition that’s all the happened...a bunch of trolling between the candidates. Lol
And I don’t play both sides. Nothing you posted supported your comment that I play both sides. Please reread you own post. I look at the facts and base them on what I see. I agree or disagree with someone based on the facts, not who the poster is. I know this is a rare practice in AP circles.
Btw, you somewhat contradicted yourself here and in your recent post about me on BJTF. You called me “consistent” on BJTF, even with my couple 1000 handles to throw everybody off. Lol. Here you’re saying I’m playing both sides. Which is it? You said all my handles are consistent. This doesn’t sound like someone who plays both sides. I can’t even figure out what you believe since you contradict yourself from one post to the next. Lol
You also called me “cagey”. Thank you! I’ve never been called cagey before. You gave me a lot of compliments. Thank you!
And btw, thank you reposting some of my posts I made on blackjackinfo. Those are some of my better ones. They should probably be nominated for some top ten posting award. Do any forums do that anymore?
I will say something about you Bob21, it is people like you that are responsible for silencing the more knowledgeable posters and subsequently driving them off the boards. Of course, it is always the new players starting out who pay the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmThis is an outright fucking lie, maggot. No more playing footsy with your ass. You're just a punk ass troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Pertaining to you bob21, I could not have said it any better than mickeycrimm, who I absolutely agree with.
If I’m really doing that, that’s a good thing. Thank you for your compliment! You continue to praise me. Please stop! My heads about ready to explode. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
We need some people working and doing productive things otherwise our economy will go to hell in a hand basket. The last thing this world needs is more parasites, I mean APs. That’s a joke.
As your hero, Freightman, said on BJTF, an AP provides no value to society. If that’s the case, then why do you want to create more APs?
If I’m silencing “the more knowledgeable posters”, why is that happening? Can’t they support their point of view? Are you saying they’re cowards? Who appointed you as their spokesperson?
Btw, I saw you got a lot of unhelpfuls when you made that attack against me on BJTF. It appears I have some fans over there or nobody cares for you. Either way, it doesn’t make you look good, but I’m pretty sure you’re used to it by now.
Blackhole’s nickname for you is a good one. BOBO, the clown. Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhat does it matter? Maybe I don't want to help someone that spends 90% of their time trashing me, attempting to discredit me and then turns around and under a different handle acts all sincere and wants my advice. I find it dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
KJ got it right, and you think you are being clever with that same sense of humor as your buddy on the island. By the way he is enjoying your quick wit and snap replies by Moses saying:
" Again, with the newbies. WTF. IF think can't surf a forum. Lord help them when they arrive in a casino. Huh, well I was doing okay and then I went on a BJ forum and cagey fucked up my mind with Mindplay and I lost $29K in a week."
Then he continues with quoting you and also replying himself:
"Cagey replies; Btw, I saw you got a lot of unhelpfuls when you made that attack against me on BJTF. It appears I have some fans over there (NO) or nobody cares for you(probably). Either way, it doesn’t make you look good, but I’m pretty sure you’re used to it by now (doubt it)."
Whoa! Talk about your lightning rounds. Let's go with No, Probably, doubt it for $200 Alex. I mean Axel.
"Cagey replies. If I’m really doing that, that’s a good thing. Thank you for your compliment! You continue to praise me. Please stop! My heads about ready to explode. Lol."
Well, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Poor Blackhole and Karl just busted a spring. Even Mr. Tucker is a might put out...and nothing usually bother him."
BoSox:
Since you both come from the Mid West with the same sick sense of humor this could turn out that you are both the exact same person only you are the sock puppet. If not either way you are the link to the island, and since he is having so much fun over there I have decided to go for the lightning round that he just mentioned.
Pertaining to that obsession he has with someone else loosing $29k in a week why does that even bother him so much in the first place, as
it is really irrelevant to him personally? Yes Kj did mention it but was not complaining, but, did open himself up for criticism. Moses has a frequent saying that goes something like this:
Making the first million is not that hard , but, you do not really learn how to handle money correctly until you lose your first two million.
For the true daily double Alex: What is the amount of money he lost in his divorce settlement. Suddenly $29K doesn't sound so bad.
Does anybody know what Bosox just said? I don’t. Do we have a translator in the house?
Who exactly are you quoting in the above posts?....whoever it is appears to be some homeless,brain damaged moronQuote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21What? I think you got the wrong person. When did I try to discredit you? I’ve always defended you and say I believe your story. Go back and read some of my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I do think Moses is funny, but I don’t like his threats against you. Moses and I have the same sense of humor. Probably because we grew up in the Midwest.
Are you sure you got the right person? I think you might have mistaken me for someone else? If I said something against you it was probably in an honest debate or something I said in sacrasim. I know APs have a long memory and not a very good sense of humor.
We did disagree on some topics but I never tried to discredit you.
KJ got it right, and you think you are being clever with that same sense of humor as your buddy on the island. By the way he is enjoying your quick wit and snap replies by Moses saying:
" Again, with the newbies. WTF. IF think can't surf a forum. Lord help them when they arrive in a casino. Huh, well I was doing okay and then I went on a BJ forum and cagey fucked up my mind with Mindplay and I lost $29K in a week."
Then he continues with quoting you and also replying himself:
"Cagey replies; Btw, I saw you got a lot of unhelpfuls when you made that attack against me on BJTF. It appears I have some fans over there (NO) or nobody cares for you(probably). Either way, it doesn’t make you look good, but I’m pretty sure you’re used to it by now (doubt it)."
Whoa! Talk about your lightning rounds. Let's go with No, Probably, doubt it for $200 Alex. I mean Axel.
"Cagey replies. If I’m really doing that, that’s a good thing. Thank you for your compliment! You continue to praise me. Please stop! My heads about ready to explode. Lol."
Well, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Poor Blackhole and Karl just busted a spring. Even Mr. Tucker is a might put out...and nothing usually bother him."
BoSox:
Since you both come from the Mid West with the same sick sense of humor this could turn out that you are both the exact same person only you are the sock puppet. If not either way you are the link to the island, and since he is having so much fun over there I have decided to go for the lightning round that he just mentioned.
Pertaining to that obsession he has with someone else loosing $29k in a week why does that even bother him so much in the first place, as
it is really irrelevant to him personally? Yes Kj did mention it but was not complaining, but, did open himself up for criticism. Moses has a frequent saying that goes something like this:
Making the first million is not that hard , but, you do not really learn how to handle money correctly until you lose your first two million.
For the true daily double Alex: What is the amount of money he lost in his divorce settlement. Suddenly $29K doesn't sound so bad.
Hi Bob, when I post, one of my goals is to make my points clear to as many forum members as possible. In my opinion the majority (i.e. everyone except you) of the forum members know what point I was trying to make. Unfortunately, I cannot dumb it down any further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21I’m sure you think you made a very good point, but I have no idea what it was. But if it makes you feel any better, good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Yes I suppose it depends on the meaning of "you"
Bill Clinton: "it depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is"?
So "you" really meant to write
but decided that typing two words ("The majority") instead of one ("you") was just too tedious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Apologies, TP.
We all know what your "code of ethics" is....and also what your credit score is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Excellent point Alan. Note that this case is quite similar to the doubling down IGT VP bug case and that the disposition of the IGT VP case (through the appeal process IIRC) was that the defendants ended up being not guilty of any crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Hey tableplay, there is a big difference in someone being found not guilty and them being innocent. The burden of proof is very high (and rightfully so) on finding someone guilty. This is a pretty complicated concept. It might be over your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayExcellent point Alan. Note that this case is quite similar to the doubling down IGT VP bug case and that the disposition of the IGT VP case (through the appeal process IIRC) was that the defendants ended up being not guilty of any crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
There are a lot of people in our country that have being found not guilty of some crime, but, in fact, were still guilty of that crime.
Just to make sure everybody is clear, these 5 gamblers knew they were winning money on machines that were "malfunctioning"....but you had to know the magic code to make them malfunction. This is what one of the bozos said who got stopped in Arizona for a routine traffic violation.
When he was questioned at a police headquarters in Flagstaff, AZ, Binning said he "gambled and won on keno machines that were malfunctioning at Harrah's casinos in Joliet, Illinois, and Tunica, Mississippi," according to the filing.
The whole article is attached: https://patch.com/illinois/joliet/jo...p-court-filing
What I don't understand is why the judge in this case doesn't make these bozos pay the money back to the casinos. This is what is usually done when a slot machine malfunctions.
http://https://vegasclick.com/games/slots/malfunctions
Just to be clear, Nestor and Kane were NOT AP's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I have no idea what the guys in Illinois could have done differently to keep the play going longer since I wasn't there and don't know all the details. It sounds like they were able to get over 500k from the casinos in a short period of time. That's not easy to keep off the radar. They probably made much more that wasn't accounted for. Obviously they never thought the casinos would conspire with the police off property to get their money. They even rented a different car and stashed 190k in a safe deposit box the the authorities they got that as well.... Lesson learned.
I made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Just read these posts between BoBo, Bob21, and KewlJ. Can it get any more ridicules coming here to argue about other forums?
Dan, please take all this garbage which is no different then trolling posts and dedicate a spot for them. Maybe something like “rejects from other forums trash talk.” After all you’ve done it several times already.
I see the 2 little hags are up early and whining to Dan what he should do with his forum...BlackPole is just miserable with life so he is understandable...MoMo the Homo is over at a deserted crack house whining (little bitch’s voice) “Oh Dan, ban Kewl J and Keystone and all your problems will go away”....what a sorry little whiny bitch he is...”oh if you don’t stop, I’ll beat you up”...lololololololololololol....what a sad sack of a supposed man....to quote Mr Hole- You can’t make this shit up
Agreed! We need our own place to go play in the mud. We shouldn’t pollute this realtive decent discussion on an interesting topic with our meaniless drival about handles.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
This shows how warped people become who’ve been APs too long. Kj and BOBO thought the biggest crime in the world is having a different handle on different forums. BOBO, the clown, took it so far as to attack me on a thread he started on BJTF. He needs help if he thinks anybody but him and KJ care. I don’t even think his idol, Freightman, cares.
Point taken. But one could also look at the Phil Ivey edge sorting case and see why the judge could have made these people pay back this money. The judge in the Phil Ivey case basically said Phil had not cheated but he won the money in a way the game was not intended to be played. Phil was basically playing with an unfair advantage. You could argue the same thing with this case. Anybody could win on a keno machine that has malfunctioned and is paying out 5 times what it’s supposed to. Finding these type of opportunities (basically broken machines) is not what APing is about for most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Where did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules? What I said was in my experience, few AP's do this and I told you why. So when it was pointed out that you do this, I was not surprised. Despite that you show some interest in blackjack, even before I found out about the multiple handles, I had determined that was basically an act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
In my opinion, you are one of a number of anti-AP people that now populate this forum. Granted a bit different than most of the other anti-AP guys, who are just bitter, jealous, losing gamblers, where as you are a casino industry supporter/sympathizer. I don't know if you work for a casino, or have a family or friends that do or what your association is, nor do I much care.
So while you are different than the other "haters", the resulting agenda is the same, to discredit and torment AP's. You don't participate on any forum to try to contribute in a positive manner, you contribute to be negative and disrupt. And that is the definition of a troll. So from this point forward you will get nothing from me (on any forum) except for a return of your negativity.
Please say it isn’t so Kj. How will I get through life if I get “nothing” from you. Lol. You have been my inspiration!Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhere did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules? What I said was in my experience, few AP's do this and I told you why. So when it was pointed out that you do this, I was not surprised. Despite that you show some interest in blackjack, even before I found out about the multiple handles, I had determined that was basically an act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
In my opinion, you are one of a number of anti-AP people that now populate this forum. Granted a bit different than most of the other anti-AP guys, who are just bitter, jealous, losing gamblers, where as you are a casino industry supporter/sympathizer. I don't know if you work for a casino, or have a family or friends that do or what your association is, nor do I much care.
So while you are different than the other "haters", the resulting agenda is the same, to discredit and torment AP's. You don't participate on any forum to try to contribute in a positive manner, you contribute to be negative and disrupt. And that is the definition of a troll. So from this point forward you will get nothing from me (on any forum) except for a return of your negativity.
As far as me being different, you’re probaly right. I’m an independent thinker, and don’t pick sides. I’ve had my quarrels with blackhole, but lately I’d have to say I agree with most of what he says, including ridiculing the mindless posts between you, Bobo and me. Even keystone has become one my favorite posters. He always has me laughing. Good stuff there.
Btw, you need to check out some my early posts on BJTF. I had some good debates with several APs, including Don S, on different counts, and the casino experience in general. Freightman even commented he’d never seen someone get so many helpfuls as a newbie poster. Obviously, people turned on me when I defended caisnos against some of the stupid comments they were making. Most APs don’t know that the casinos main objective is not to see how much an APs can take from them. That’s a joke. Btw, most APs don’t have much of a sense of humor either. They can’t spot sacrasim.
As far as our disagreements. They have only been over two topics: 1) mindplay and 2) beast mode. Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone can think different than you on some topic?
Yes, I’m a part time recreational AP, but I still get things from the casino prespective. And I know this is rare for an AP. When I see these young counters come through my local casinos, they do kind of piss me off. I’ve seen more and more of them lately.
They are the true definition of a parasite. They come in to “take” without contributing anything. For example, recently one came though and won $8,000 at bj before they were finally backed off, probably 86d. He played with 3 different dealers and didn’t tip any of them even one dollar. How do I know, because I was there and they told me. It shocked them that someone could be that callous, winning that much money and not leave even a one dollar tip to a waitress or dealer. I expect this guy later bragged to all his AP friends how he took this casino for so much money while leaving no tip.
So no, I don’t have much respect for this type of AP? I will always defend the casino here. All APs are not the same though. I’ve met some very good compassionate ones, and shared phone numbers with them. I actually have an AP friend from Vegas who comes to my area about once every two months.
So kJ, back to your threat about no longer responding to my posts, except in a negative way. That’s your call. But I won’t be doing the the same with you. That’s not how I’m wired. When I see you say something that makes sense, I’ll agree with you, and probably comment favorably. And when I see you say something that makes no sense, like beast mode, I’ll probably ridicule you. Btw, I was not the only AP that did this when you went on your beast mode rant.
I do hope that someday you can grow up and accept that people are different and everybody doesn’t think the same way. I wish you - and BOBO- the best. See I have no ill will towards BOBO, even though he went on BJTF just to attack me. I forgive my attackers. I just want us to all get along as one big happy family! Lol . Btw, I don’t really believe that. If that happened, these forums wouldn’t be any fun.
I see, so Phil was playing machine baccarat and pressing a certain button combination (which was the similarity I was referring to) to get wins and then was ruled against in a court of law ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Point taken. But one could also look at the Phil Ivey edge sorting case and see why the judge could have made these people pay back this money. The judge in the Phil Ivey case basically said Phil had not cheated but he won the money in a way the game was not intended to be played. Phil was basically playing with an unfair advantage. You could argue the same thing with this case. Anybody could win on a keno machine that has malfunctioned and is paying out 5 times what it’s supposed to. Finding these type of opportunities (basically broken machines) is not what APing is about for most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Bob likes to use Straw Men and then argue against them - he seems to think people here have shoe size IQs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Really? Seemed like they had an advantage to meQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Fraud (bob) 21, every single positions that you take just happens to be the position that the casino industry would take. I wonder why that is? :confused:
Tipping: It is always the casino dealer that are the biggest crybaby's about tipping. Let me tell you something, a dealer in a casino is NOT a service type job like a waiter or bartender, despite that Dealers have decided they are entitled to a percentage of a players winnings. Dealer is a low skill job. And that is how they should be paid. It is beyond me why a dealer thinks they are entitled to a percentage of winnings from a player? Hey is the cashier/ticket person at the sportsbook entitled to a percentage of winning sports wager bets? When people go to the horse race track do you tip the guy that punches out your ticket? How many players tip their bookie when they have a winning week?
These jobs at the casino are simply low level, low skill jobs that can and are being replaced by technology. Hey do people playing those big screen video blackjack games tip the dealer?
If dealers aren't happy with their pay scale they should talk to their employer. Those billionaires are the ones responsible for paying their employees a decent wage. What a scam it is, by who ever came up with that the players should make up the difference in the low pay because the casino owners don't. Complete bullshit!
Next...The young player that won $8000 and didn't tip. Where you watching this guy for days weeks? (if so how is that.....oh yeah because you were the dealer} Or was this one day, one session? If he won that kind of money in one session, the majority of that $8000 win was variance. Only a small portion was EV. Now if AP's are going to tip, and there really is no reason to, they should tip a small portion of EV, not the total win. Otherwise, they have lost money on that play. But again, there is no requirement or even reason to tip. That is bullshit that dealers unhappy with there pay came up with. "Winning players should give up a percentage of their win". What bullshit! The players put up all the risk, yet the dealer wants a percentage of the win. :mad: Talk about entitlement.
Next: you repeating the stupid and false old argument that AP's contribute nothing. Every dollar we spend contributes to the economy and helps keep people employed, whether it is the food we buy at the grocery store, the gas we put in our car, eating at restaurants. Everything! This isn't a thousand years ago, when everyone "made" something....the butcher, the candlestick maker. Today's economy is mostly fueled by spending. And as long as the money is earned legally, the spender is contributing to the economy and helping to keep people working. You can even argue that illegal money earned does the same, but I don't want to go there. In the last 9 months, I have sold and then purchase a home for hundreds of thousands of dollars, creating a pretty nice payday for 2 different realtors. I'll bet they don't think I contribute nothing. :rolleyes:
Next: "you have differed with me on two points mindplay and beast mode". I don't care for that term beast mode, but I will allow it. Both these issues are issues of casino cheating, one (mindplay) ruled against by the casino commission, who rarely breaks with the casino industry. That's how blatant it was!
The second (ASM cheating) would be ruled against if a case ever got to the commission or courts. I simply wasn't willing to bring that case, as it would have been detrimental to my career at this point in time. So I brought it to light for players to look at and decide for themselves. Both AP's and non-AP's because it was/is not only AP's that were being cheated. Non-AP's who had no clue about any of it were also being cheated.
And let's talk about what occurred in the aftermath. The casino that I named by name, immediately pulled the 2 ASM's in question. Why would they do that? :rolleyes:
AND, although I have never mentioned this and will get flack for doing so now, you know what happened to the ASM, that I acquired? After I learned what I could and confirmed my suspicions, I resold it. To whom? To probably the top table game AP alive to today. The guy who literally wrote "the book" about table game advantage play. :rolleyes: He confirmed my finding and then guess what he did? Learned what he could (which was a lot more than what I could) and then used that to exploit machines all over the world. He didn't file a lawsuit either. He didn't go to gaming. He didn't even warn other players AP and non-AP's . He just used the knowledge to enrich himself. I guess I am not going to fault him for that. He IS an advantage player and maybe the top AP, certainly the one of the top table game AP. But at least I warned others (and received all kinds of shit for it).
But it's funny every fucking issue, you have come down on the side of the casino industry. I wonder why that is? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a fucking duck. :cool:
Let me expand on that young player that won $8000 and didn't tip, that you pegged as a card counter. So you saw him win $8000 and not tip? You have no idea how is running as a total. Maybe he lost 20 grand the previous couple days and is still digging out of a hole.
Remember that 29k losing week I had last fall, that people like your buddy Moses, who have proven they have no understanding of what variance is, keeps harping on? (and embarrassing himself as far as blackjack knowledge about a basic concept like variance).
So let's go back to that week. I lost 29k. So the following Monday, suppose I won $5000. Am I supposed to tip the dealer a few hundred. I only make $300 a day or so in EV. If I am tipping several hundred, I am tipping all my profit.
You have no fucking clue what that young card counters situation was, nor any right to sit in judgement of him, because as a dealer think you are "entitled" to a share of his profit, despite that fact that he put up all the risk. You dealt the cards like a monkey could do. You fucking moron! If you don't like your job find a different one, but don't expect people to hand you money like some sort of beggar on the street corner.
Hey, I learned something new today. I’m a duck. Who would have thunk it? Thank you Kj! I wouldn’t have known this without you pointing it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I'm glad pepe questioned this comment because I was wondering what Axel meant?Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeReally? Seemed like they had an advantage to meQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Were they not APs because they didn't join the official club and lacked a membership card and secret decoder ring?
What exactly qualifies you as an AP besides playing with an advantage?
Is it perhaps that true APs are limited to only vulturing nickel Ultimate X machines with abandoned multipliers of 2X ?
Or must you have a certain number of anti casino posts to qualify which seems to be why a current forum member is under attack... he doesn't appear to attack casinos enough.
Pray tell, what makes one an AP?
Not surprised you don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I'll tell you this much. Winning 6 figure jackpots and still having a losing year almost assuredly disqualifies one from the AP club. But it may qualify you for president of the degenerative gamblers club.
And having family members come to the forum and state in great detail how a person can't pay their financial obligations because of their gambling "problem", and how they are broke for 27 days a month and how their gambling addiction has effected relationships with their children and grandchildren most assuredly qualifies one for the degenerative gamblers club, while at the same time dis-qualifies one from the AP club.
So at least you are in good standing in one club, Mr. Son of a shyster. :)
Kewlj, you continue to say that I had a losing year. But you don't know that.
As I said many times on this forum, why would anyone who posts using their real name report that they had a profit?
And yes my father was a mob lawyer. Let me repeat that: my father was a mob lawyer. And he never cheated his clients. He was a good lawyer. And by the way, from time to time I run into some of his friends and sons of his friends.
It may seem a cheap shot for me bring up Alan's obvious gambling addiction issues. I really get no enjoyment in that fact that Alan or anyone has gambling addiction issues.
But at the same time I am sick of these guys, these AP haters (for a variety of reasons) who 'vilify' AP's, simply because we choose to play a winning game and win some money from the casinos. Why is thinking and using mathematics to legally gain an advantage such a bad thing?
Why don't you go find a big cock that will keep you busy for a few hours. Reading your dip-shit nonsense is getting boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Please give us a break.
You have told us that you never had a winning year probably 100 times since I have been here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I learned a long time ago that you are a very dishonest person. Is this your way of admitting that? Admitting that you lied hundreds of times on this specific issue and that no one should believe a word you utter? For a supposed journalist, you are really something. :rolleyes:
Correct kewlj. I have posted over and over again that I never had a winning year. What would be the point of reporting a profit?
Now, suppose I showed a casino win/loss statement from more than three years ago? And suppose that statement showed a sizeable profit? What would change?
You are a person of many questions. I'm still waiting for you to finish your tutorial on UX vulturing. Or maybe, atleast answer one of Monet's questions. All take no give is typical of a shysterQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonI'm glad pepe questioned this comment because I was wondering what Axel meant?Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeReally? Seemed like they had an advantage to meQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Were they not APs because they didn't join the official club and lacked a membership card and secret decoder ring?
What exactly qualifies you as an AP besides playing with an advantage?
Is it perhaps that true APs are limited to only vulturing nickel Ultimate X machines with abandoned multipliers of 2X ?
Or must you have a certain number of anti casino posts to qualify which seems to be why a current forum member is under attack... he doesn't appear to attack casinos enough.
Pray tell, what makes one an AP?
You are free to not read. Even more preferably would be if you stopped breathing and just died already. You are basically dead already. A ghost. No one gives a shit about you or anything you say except a few other irrelevant, bitter Haters.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Thank you for your interest in my sex life. I don't need to "find a big cock". Since you have expressed your interest, I have a fairly new "boyfriend" for lack of a better label. He doesn't have a big cock, but it is nice. Very cute. Very suckable, which generally is something I don't do all that much. I usually am more about received oral, but being that he is young and cute, I return the favor more that I usually do. Never for hours though. I am pretty talented when I put my mind to it, so it is more like a 10 minute exercise.
Again, thanks for your interest. Anything else you want to know?
Because I worked as a journalist am I required to reveal details of my personal life?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJYou have told us that you never had a winning year probably 100 times since I have been here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I learned a long time ago that you are a very dishonest person. Is this your way of admitting that? Admitting that you lied hundreds of times on this specific issue and that no one should believe a word you utter? For a supposed journalist, you are really something. :rolleyes:
What else do you want to know?
Yes, you seem to take it in the ass often here. How often do you at home or where ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
One other thing. Do you get your new lovers checked for aids before you dive in?
I never have taken it in the ass. Just something I am not interested in. But please tell us how it feels?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Think I'm going to puke.
You know it is funny. The biggest homophobes, like Blackhole, Singer, Moses almost always turn out to be deep in the closet cases. It's always the biggest public homophobes, religious leaders, politicians (usually republican) etc. that eventually get caught having an affair with another dude, or doing the toe tap thing in the men's room.
And often these guys are married, having used that as cover for a lifetime, while living a lie. No wonder they end up such bitter old fucks. Sound familiar Blackhole? Singer? Moses?
Staring down the truth that one has been denying their whole life sometimes does that to people. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Although in your case, it probably is just a symptom of cancer eating away at your decrepit old, failing body.
Not true, it might appear to you that many are in the closet, but it's only the few that are pick up a blimp on their gaynar that your a cocksucker.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Jesus, you are so flustered over having exposed yourself as a queer, that words fail you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
I think jumbling your words is a sign of a stroke.
Sorry to break the news, but I'm in full remission. Cancer free now for over a year. Memorial Sloan Kettering ... Best of the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
This is sick. I mean truelly sick. What normal person - gay or heterosexual - discusses their sex life in this much detail on a public forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJYou are free to not read. Even more preferably would be if you stopped breathing and just died already. You are basically dead already. A ghost. No one gives a shit about you or anything you say except a few other irrelevant, bitter Haters.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Thank you for your interest in my sex life. I don't need to "find a big cock". Since you have expressed your interest, I have a fairly new "boyfriend" for lack of a better label. He doesn't have a big cock, but it is nice. Very cute. Very suckable, which generally is something I don't do all that much. I usually am more about received oral, but being that he is young and cute, I return the favor more that I usually do. Never for hours though. I am pretty talented when I put my mind to it, so it is more like a 10 minute exercise.
Again, thanks for your interest. Anything else you want to know?
I have a gay friend and he would never talk like this. Kj, you need help. I'm seeing a side of you that I hadn’t seen before. I’m starting to see where other people are coming from.
Kj, you’re the troll. This post was nothing more than a troll post...stirring the pot by talking about your sex fantasies.
Back to the question....Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeReally? Seemed like they had an advantage to meQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Blackhole expressed an interest, so I obliged. And this is a troll site. You hater's have made sure of that. Bob21 or whatever name you are using today, all you ever do is troll on every site you are on. You can't have it both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21This is sick. I mean truelly sick. What normal person - gay or heterosexual - discusses their sex life in this much detail on a public forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJYou are free to not read. Even more preferably would be if you stopped breathing and just died already. You are basically dead already. A ghost. No one gives a shit about you or anything you say except a few other irrelevant, bitter Haters.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhole
Thank you for your interest in my sex life. I don't need to "find a big cock". Since you have expressed your interest, I have a fairly new "boyfriend" for lack of a better label. He doesn't have a big cock, but it is nice. Very cute. Very suckable, which generally is something I don't do all that much. I usually am more about received oral, but being that he is young and cute, I return the favor more that I usually do. Never for hours though. I am pretty talented when I put my mind to it, so it is more like a 10 minute exercise.
Again, thanks for your interest. Anything else you want to know?
I have a gay friend and he would never talk like this. Kj, you need help. I'm seeing a side of you that I hadn’t seen before. I’m starting to see where other people are coming from.
Kj, you’re the troll. This post was nothing more than a troll post...stirring the pot by talking about your sex fantasies.
Why thank you Bob, nice of you to say....I am trying very hard to keep quiet with the insults, but when you have an illiterate miserable puke like BlackPole, and a total fucking boob like Moses, who was obviously dropped on his head multiple times as a young, ignorant toddler,providing endless material, it just sort of flows :).....Maybe you can answer a question for me...who is this Freighter character that I`ve read about a few times?.....I`m getting sort of lost trying to keep up and may need a scorecard....There`s Tater...Freighter...Masturbator.....Thanks in advance for any light you can shed....It`s very confusing trying to keep track of alternative lifestyle Moses and his gang of butt pirates :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Please say it isn’t so Kj. How will I get through life if I get “nothing” from you. Lol. You have been my inspiration!Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhere did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules? What I said was in my experience, few AP's do this and I told you why. So when it was pointed out that you do this, I was not surprised. Despite that you show some interest in blackjack, even before I found out about the multiple handles, I had determined that was basically an act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
In my opinion, you are one of a number of anti-AP people that now populate this forum. Granted a bit different than most of the other anti-AP guys, who are just bitter, jealous, losing gamblers, where as you are a casino industry supporter/sympathizer. I don't know if you work for a casino, or have a family or friends that do or what your association is, nor do I much care.
So while you are different than the other "haters", the resulting agenda is the same, to discredit and torment AP's. You don't participate on any forum to try to contribute in a positive manner, you contribute to be negative and disrupt. And that is the definition of a troll. So from this point forward you will get nothing from me (on any forum) except for a return of your negativity.
As far as me being different, you’re probaly right. I’m an independent thinker, and don’t pick sides. I’ve had my quarrels with blackhole, but lately I’d have to say I agree with most of what he says, including ridiculing the mindless posts between you, Bobo and me. Even keystone has become one my favorite posters. He always has me laughing. Good stuff there.
Btw, you need to check out some my early posts on BJTF. I had some good debates with several APs, including Don S, on different counts, and the casino experience in general. Freightman even commented he’d never seen someone get so many helpfuls as a newbie poster. Obviously, people turned on me when I defended caisnos against some of the stupid comments they were making. Most APs don’t know that the casinos main objective is not to see how much an APs can take from them. That’s a joke. Btw, most APs don’t have much of a sense of humor either. They can’t spot sacrasim.
As far as our disagreements. They have only been over two topics: 1) mindplay and 2) beast mode. Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone can think different than you on some topic?
Yes, I’m a part time recreational AP, but I still get things from the casino prespective. And I know this is rare for an AP. When I see these young counters come through my local casinos, they do kind of piss me off. I’ve seen more and more of them lately.
They are the true definition of a parasite. They come in to “take” without contributing anything. For example, recently one came though and won $8,000 at bj before they were finally backed off, probably 86d. He played with 3 different dealers and didn’t tip any of them even one dollar. How do I know, because I was there and they told me. It shocked them that someone could be that callous, winning that much money and not leave even a one dollar tip to a waitress or dealer. I expect this guy later bragged to all his AP friends how he took this casino for so much money while leaving no tip.
So no, I don’t have much respect for this type of AP? I will always defend the casino here. All APs are not the same though. I’ve met some very good compassionate ones, and shared phone numbers with them. I actually have an AP friend from Vegas who comes to my area about once every two months.
So kJ, back to your threat about no longer responding to my posts, except in a negative way. That’s your call. But I won’t be doing the the same with you. That’s not how I’m wired. When I see you say something that makes sense, I’ll agree with you, and probably comment favorably. And when I see you say something that makes no sense, like beast mode, I’ll probably ridicule you. Btw, I was not the only AP that did this when you went on your beast mode rant.
I do hope that someday you can grow up and accept that people are different and everybody doesn’t think the same way. I wish you - and BOBO- the best. See I have no ill will towards BOBO, even though he went on BJTF just to attack me. I forgive my attackers. I just want us to all get along as one big happy family! Lol . Btw, I don’t really believe that. If that happened, these forums wouldn’t be any fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackholeNot true, it might appear to you that many are in the closet, but it's only the few that are pick up a blimp on their gaynar that your a cocksucker.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
LOL.
Blackhole, you know, the more things you misspell when you discuss gay sex, the more it appears as if you're getting wound up. Excited. Hot. You're hitting the keys too fast...unless you're using a voice app. If you're using a voice app, try to speak slowly and clearly. Otherwise, it reads as if you're salivating. I don't think that's the impression you're shooting for...condemning gay sex while salivating.
And kewlJ, please, no more "decrepit, failing body" stuff. I ran back-to-back days for the first time this spring, and I can tell you, getting decrepit ain't no fun. I'd buy another $150 pair of running shoes, but frankly, I'm not worthy. So it's cheap shoes for me. It's going to take me 90 days until I'm ready for that 5K race with Argentino. So no more decrepitude talk. Decrepitude comes to us all.
And blackhole, don't misinterpret "comes" in that last sentence. It'll mess with your spelling.
That is a fair question Alan. While we are waiting for Axel to elaborate on just what he meant, could you answer my question? How did it come to be that you find players that use their mind and mathematics to legally play with an advantage rather than just "donate" to be such a bad thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonBack to the question....Quote:
Originally Posted by pepeReally? Seemed like they had an advantage to meQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf