The WoV Thread

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I know enough that I would have heard attendees discussing it at the table or while walking to and through casinos for a group gamble.

Nothing was discussed, in fact there was little discussion about WoV issues and personalities whatsoever.

If it was discussed it was all private and discrete, probably via PM.

One would think that if as you suspect the "group was up to something shady" that evidence in support of this belief would have been present, and there was none.

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So what your telling me is that without proof the Wizard of Odds can make assumptions and delete members and information that was posted that are only questions from previous posters. When the point was made that the questions were out of order the member acknowledged the mistake and apologized.

Now your going to sit here and tell me that your not smart enough to put two and two together.

Your going to tell me that WoN is the bad guy and that DarkOz is the good guy who let his daughter get involved in crazy deals.

Your going to tell me that no Mods or the Wizard knew who WoN was when it is clear that many members have had long term relationships with him in all sorts of AP activity?

It isn't hard to connect the dots when you just have a little bit of real information.

Everyone knows that Axel is running crews and everyone knows that WoN is all over that site but your going to tell me that they never crossed paths.

Your also going to tell me for over a year nobody could catch WoN and his dealings. These people got scammed over 8 months... why didn't they come forward?

You have to realize that someone told them to keep quiet about it like when people don't pay up on the bets. They try to keep it quiet and mediate the situation. Nothing different here except that this rabbit hole runs deep as Djatc has pointed out.

You guys want to claim honest and morality but when a serious issue like this comes up you all want to bury your head in the sand and claim we don't know or we don't have proof.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I have been to two WoVCons, and can say that Monet's claim that " this group who is obviously up to something shady or shady activity" is completely wrong, in my observation.

He implies the attendees were mostly co-conspirators; that's not how it seemed to me.

Many / most attendees were NOT Las Vegas locals, and at no time was the issue of team play brought up or even discussed in passing.

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He's sucking his own dick. Maybe we should just be quiet and let him finish before he loses it.

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Originally Posted by Monet

See Mission146, your getting personal and just making up stories. I don't get the SadieHawkins dance reference unless you mean when I invited everyone to a free dinner at Hugos but nobody could agree and everyone was scared of association or publicly listing the day and time. I have let it know on this site I have over 20 accounts on WoV. Do some better research Mission your a writer.

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I see that, 'Your,' not a writer.

I'm not making up stories, you wanted to orchestrate a big dinner and were originally trying to set it up publicly. I thought that you were being very generous offering to pick up the whole tab for people and, as I recall, one of the reasons that you wanted to do it is I think that you thought you might help ZK out a bit. Maybe even turn him on to machine plays.

That's the way I look at it and that's what I still believe to be true. I honestly don't know. Now, if I wanted to polish my own dick, I could take the above few sentences and put together all kinds of bullshit inferences from it instead. Would you like me to list twenty or thirty of them? I hope not, because I don't plan to. I can if you really want me to, so I could call into question, "Hidden thoughts and motivations," and you can't prove you weren't thinking something.

I'm suggesting you get high. Who cares who drinks or doesn't? I wasn't even accusing you of being high, I was suggesting you get high.

MISSION'S TIPS TO BECOMING A WRITER:

STEP 1: First, you must be a reader.

Anyway, I don't even really want to argue with you. I thought we liked talking to each other? Just keep my name or, "Former Admin," off of your posts when it comes to Administration over there because I have nothing to do with it.

Explain this gutter talk about me doing this act upon myself? I don't understand the point your trying to make? Try to be clear and talk to me like I am 5 years old because your education is going over my head when I read the thing about me doing that sex act to myself... what is this about... I don't understand it? Your confusing me.

I don't understand this side rail to the gutter with Mission 146. I have asked direct questions or have made direct accusations according to the posts that he or others have made. I am not making up things out of thin air but it isn't hard to connect the dots when you have a team on a site dealing with many members and they aren't making any comment on the subject whatsoever. They didn't even come to rescue Mission because he asked them not to.

It reminds me of Amarillo Slim and his problem with the Molestation Case. Only one poker player would comment on it and that was Doyle. Everyone else ran for the hills. This is how it is in the gaming world or teaming world. Everyone is your buddy until they show up at someones door with the pitchforks.

The truth is and I have already told this story. I asked any AP to a free dinner at Hugos. I have and always have over 5k in comp at that place so it was no big deal for me to pay for everything. I asked only that individuals would split the tip. So everyone couldn't agree on the date or time. They wanted to do it on the 4th of July weekend and I told them I really don't want to so they were thinking on a Monday. I was ready to do it and after that all of a sudden everyone was telling them that its a bad idea to post up where and when you are going to have dinner. Me... I ain't scared of that BS... so it just fell apart.

So what did I do? I told ZK and AxelWolf that we should meet at a pool hall and everyone agreed and I met them. I paid for everything and gave Axel a ride home not hurting or harming anyone. That is pretty much the whole story that I have already told a few times.

The truth is for the last few years I have and always have around 20k in comp in this city and nobody can refute that. I have made plenty of offers to give them away when asked or needed.

Not that it matters but I constantly go down to the homeless giving free Binions, 4 Queens and Fremont food away... so are you saying this is polishing my member... when I post things like this?

Now about WoN. It is clear that the Wizard has admitted that the Monet Incident caused WoN to get banned. So it is clear that WoN would never of been banned unless Monet (Me) goes crazy and get self banned and dupe id banned.

Explain that Wizard or Wizard Students. You let this guy advertise that he is hiring for over a year and you wouldn't of banned him if I don't go crazy?

You have members on your site getting hustled by him 8 months prior and nobody warns the public or says word one.

My point is that many many members are just as guilty as WoN is. Either Directly or Indirectly.

The nice thing about this site is that we have almost complete freedom to discuss things in a civilized manner or we can get down and dirty and use ugly words like Mission 146... You don't see the powers that be just deleting posts out of thin air over here. That takes integrity... something that is obviously lacking at WoV which the Wizard is in control of.

Because you have this idea in your head now, so you're playing a little connect the dots game.

What you are essentially trying to do is that you are trying to connect a series of unrelated events, and based on those connections, you're making a number of assumptions.

You have here a first-party account of multiple WoV gatherings, neither of which did you attend, but you're calling out the veracity of the observations because the person making the observations is not an AP. Furthermore, were you not banned, you could simply go on there and PM whoever attended those events (it was listed publicly, as you mentioned) and get their observations.

Now, if you want to know why people did or did not come forward, I can't answer that. I could see why they wouldn't tell me, though. The first reason is that I did personal business with WoN and the second reason is because I would have had exactly zero, zilch, nada, nothing to do with their affairs. Why? Because I never referred anyone to WoN. Because I got some cards and picked up some free play for him and that's about it. Because nobody else from the Forum was involved with anything he and I did.

Also, with your bullshit assumptions, like the post after the one quoted.

Do you know I only get five posts a day? This is number three. So, don't accuse me of deliberately not responding to you if I run out.

You said:

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Originally Posted by Monet

They didn't even come to rescue Mission because he asked them not to.

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That's fucking conjecture. The only people I asked not to defend me personally were the other Admins, otherwise, I would be deleting posts left and right. Do you know why I would be deleting posts and sending PM's left and right? Because I have helped any number of people on that site with math and very basic starting information for vulturing/machine hustling type stuff when I have been asked. I've never asked for any personal information or anything else in return.

It's just like the football picks thing. You said yourself that you offered to cut me in for half and I didn't want to take anything. And, guess what? If you hadn't said that, then that would have never come out and I could not use it to defend myself now because I do not talk about private communications. You then reiterated half of $30,000 (I think) and I basically said that I'd think you were extremely generous if you even threw me $500.

Did I ask to fly out to Vegas and work with you? Did I ask to meet up with you? Did I ask you for any information of any other kind?

I thought that you may have hinted towards the start of a conversation about me picking up some free play for you, so I made it known quickly and clearly that I wouldn't be interested because there are only two nights a week that I don't have my kids, so as to save you time.

Anyway, you're just running your mouth at this point, but that's because I think you just want to see the drama continue. My opinion is that you find it entertaining.

If you want to ask me a question, you can ask me a question. I'll answer anything without revealing anything that I think is confidential.

But, if you're going to sit and make baseless accusations as to some kind of huge group conspiracy and lump me in with those accusations, you're sucking your own dick. I worked with WoN on fewer occasions (unless you count multiple pick ups with the same card at the same casino more than one occasion) than I can count on both hands. Nothing I did with him involved anyone from the Forum. I never recruited for him, much less vouched for him. Finally, I have nothing to do with the Administration of the website or Waxie's post being deleted.

Considering I responded directly to Waxie, I was obviously not trying to hide and I'm not hiding, now. The only person here who could ask me a question and would get no response whatsoever is LarryS, who is a non-entity.

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Originally Posted by MONET

The truth is and I have already told this story. I asked any AP to a free dinner at Hugos. I have and always have over 5k in comp at that place so it was no big deal for me to pay for everything. I asked only that individuals would split the tip. So everyone couldn't agree on the date or time. They wanted to do it on the 4th of July weekend and I told them I really don't want to so they were thinking on a Monday. I was ready to do it and after that all of a sudden everyone was telling them that its a bad idea to post up where and when you are going to have dinner. Me... I ain't scared of that BS... so it just fell apart.

So what did I do? I told ZK and AxelWolf that we should meet at a pool hall and everyone agreed and I met them. I paid for everything and gave Axel a ride home not hurting or harming anyone. That is pretty much the whole story that I have already told a few times.

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See, but a conspiracy-minded fellow might suggest that you did it to gather information on Axel, maybe get him in trouble later with it if you needed to, reduce your competition.

I like your story better and tend to believe it.

I had lunch with WoN and DarkOz that I didn't know would take place until that same morning. I was there with my fiance'. I was in AC doing something unrelated with WoN, and he asked me if I wanted lunch and to meet Darkoz if I wanted to stick around. I said, "Sure," but almost left because I think Darkoz was a little later than expected. If it had been a half hour later, I would have left.

I'm not going to talk about the conversation between him and WoN because it's none of my business. I will say that Darkoz approached us wearing a very convincing mask that he kept on for probably a half hour, or so. He might have been watching us without the mask to decide whether he wanted to approach us, or not. He eventually took the mask off, but I couldn't remember spotting him before that, I obviously wouldn't have been looking for him.

Anyway, I will say that I had nothing to do with the conversation between the two of them. Why would I? It had to do with casinos and plays in that general region and I live just over 400 miles away. That's also why I didn't really pay attention, because it had nothing to do with me. The hell did I care what was being talked about.

Without getting into anything business-related, the first fifteen minutes really seemed like an AP dick-measuring contest, if you want to know the truth. When it comes to AP, I've got a pretty small dick, so I felt no need to participate.

I guess I am wrong and I am just making this all up in my own mind. It is a shame that all the other people I have pointed the finger at have nothing to say.

I openly admitted to everyone that I asked if you wanted half of my action in a free contest. I never said that you asked for anything. I stated that when someone works with me they get half. You made it clear many times that half was too much but I insisted that you get half and would never have to pay taxes. I am not sure why we are bringing this up because I never said anything but the truth about this proposition or deal.

About your cards. I do recall mentioning something about playing on your cards or helping you pick up free play if you needed it. I think I may have offered to show you some of my plays and help you in Vegas if you needed or wanted it. I do not think I ever tried to deceive you in any way shape or form. I may have suggested shady things with players card tricks but I am always upfront on these public forums about that. I have said many times that I am not above stealing or cheating.

I also have never cried about you responding or not responding to my posts. I did say that over on WoV all you hear is crickets over there when direct questions were asked to many members.

Your probably right... I am probably just running my mouth making my own personal movie over here. I haven't got into the gutter too much or using obscene language. Anyways like you say or are hinting at since I am just self entertaining myself I will get bored soon and things will quiet down until I find something else to nit pick at.

I am sorry to this forum for wasting your time with my frivolous claims.

I do question why did none of the top dogs on WoV come to your rescue? I understand you told the Mods not to help but so many others over there that post all the time didn't say word one? You only had 3 members that were long time posters constantly asking you to resign but all your other friends or at least internet friends didn't say anything? I mean the guy you will vouch for 100% didn't say anything till your resignation was complete?

Some of this I do find entertaining but when you clearly have a problem with a con artist on the site and no action is taken for so long and after that you have suppression and deletion of information... that's pretty ugly. Whatever though... I guess nobody cares about that sort of thing. I remember getting into it with GWAE about cameras and drones watching our every move. He said he didn't care if the government wanted to watch him on the toilet and I was strongly opposed to such governmental control just like I am opposed to the restrained freedom on the WoV site.

Good point about the conspiracy minded fellow thing. I like that twisted way of thinking and how could I refute it in either direction? Now that is entertaining!

Well, if you're going to accuse me, I'm going to defend myself and point out that I'm pissed off about being accused, so there you go.

My point about the football contest is just that, you offered me something and I just naturally said that the amount you were offering me was ridiculous. I'm not going to screw anybody over or take any knowing part in someone else being screwed over, and the notion that I would pisses me off. To me, $15,000 if those picks would have went well would be screwing you over because I didn't do $15,000 worth of work. I'm not even the one who earned the entries. It makes no sense for me to get an equal cut if you win. Especially when you might have taxes. That's a totally disproportionate arrangement and would be unfair to you.

You didn't try to deceive me and I didn't try to deceive you. I didn't try to get any information out of you. That's my point. I don't know how you can lump me in with any accusations based upon your dealings with me. I'm not saying anything along the lines of you trying to deceive me, you were very nice. You said some stuff in the, 'Vacation,' PM that seemed to lend the impression that you might be looking for help with pick-ups, but I may have read too much into it. I was basically just saying that I am not available due to family responsibilities.

So, we're cool if you'll be cool. I don't like being lumped in with any accusations, which I think themselves are bullshit. If they are not bullshit, then I had nothing to do with it. And, I have nothing to do with how the message board is Administrated. In fact, I quite specifically don't WANT to know what is being discussed behind the scenes because a regular member would not be privy to Admin discussions.

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Originally Posted by Monet

Your probably right... I am probably just running my mouth making my own personal movie over here. I haven't got into the gutter too much or using obscene language. Anyways like you say or are hinting at since I am just self entertaining myself I will get bored soon and things will quiet down until I find something else to nit pick at.

I am sorry to this forum for wasting your time with my frivolous claims.

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If you're going to hold me to a standard of not using obscene language, I'm afraid your standards for me are too high. There is either a rule against it or there isn't, and here, there isn't.

Everything else is cool.

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Originally Posted by Monet

I do question why did none of the top dogs on WoV come to your rescue? I understand you told the Mods not to help but so many others over there that post all the time didn't say word one? You only had 3 members that were long time posters constantly asking you to resign but all your other friends or at least internet friends didn't say anything? I mean the guy you will vouch for 100% didn't say anything till your resignation was complete?

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I don't know who you mean, plenty of people said plenty of stuff in my resignation thread and plenty of other people PM'ed me stuff. As far as the heavy-hitters, some of them considered me basically 100% responsible for WoN not being banned sooner, so why would they help me? Tough to blame them for not helping me if that is what they think. But, I'm not going to go and say that other people knew about it. If they want to say they knew about it, then they can, but I'm not going to say it or who.

Anyone else can either say or not say what they want to say or not say. I have no input on that. I think Axelwolf is the only non-Admin I directly told not to defend me in any way. I called and told him that. I don't want him getting dragged into stuff for any non necessary reasons. There's no way he would have been involved in anything untowardly involving another member and neither was I.

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Originally Posted by Monet

Good point about the conspiracy minded fellow thing. I like that twisted way of thinking and how could I refute it in either direction? Now that is entertaining!

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Thanks!

I have questions, and I think they are pretty much everyman's questions.

Why would anybody be an unpaid mod? What's the point? Why? I mean, it smacks of being desperate to hang with Shackleford and learn something, but surely there are better ways. If it's to immerse yourself in a gambling milieu and get familiar, okay, but then you start off not really qualified for being a mod of a gambling site to begin with.

How does anybody with sufficient gambling expertise to be a mod on a gambling site decide to do it for free? And why would you?

The obvious implication is that there's some backdoor value to it, which is where monet is coming from. I cannot blame him, as that answer makes more sense than any others. Maybe there isn't anything shady, but to the guy in the street, this unpaid mod stuff is hard to figure out.

See we're getting to the bottom of some things here. That's what happens when people talk things out. It may get heated but if people would talk it out things can get solved. I don't think I get into obscene, descriptive language in my posts. Yes it's true I may say ---- or f or f'ers or mother f'ers but I'm not telling people to do obscene acts on themselves. Perhaps a few GFYs. Your so darn good with words that stuff was throwing me for a loop.

I think it's fair to say I share more real world information than most and I have always followed through on any deals and I try to keep it all public but I like the twists that Mission is saying I might be doing it for the long con or to out everyone lol. I can't prove that either way on a forum no matter what. See this is fun for me.

I'm obviously an aggressive person. In my experience aggression wins out almost always so expect more up the middle tactics from me.

I agree that Mission was the only one to respond to waxie22 and if I remember correctly waxie22 apologized and agreed with Mission. I wish I would of saved more of those posts that I read because those direct questions were serious and good and need to be answered. I think it makes the Wizard look really bad deleting that information and not responding to it.

I AM GOING TO DO MY BEST HERE BECAUSE I MIGHT ONLY HAVE THIS AND ONE OTHER POST LEFT TODAY. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ASK BOSSMAN DAN DRUFF TO MODIFY THIS?

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Originally Posted by Redietz

Why would anybody be an unpaid mod? What's the point? Why? I mean, it smacks of being desperate to hang with Shackleford and learn something, but surely there are better ways. If it's to immerse yourself in a gambling milieu and get familiar, okay, but then you start off not really qualified for being a mod of a gambling site to begin with.

How does anybody with sufficient gambling expertise to be a mod on a gambling site decide to do it for free? And why would you?

The obvious implication is that there's some backdoor value to it, which is where monet is coming from. I cannot blame him, as that answer makes more sense than any others. Maybe there isn't anything shady, but to the guy in the street, this unpaid mod stuff is hard to figure out.

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With the WoO and WoV, what you have is an excellent source of gambling information from which I learned a bunch of stuff. Obviously, I was basically an infant in gambling knowledge when I first started on the site compared to where I am now. I hope that I am an infant now compared to where I will be five years from now, unless I get into something else entirely.

Anyway, I want to show my gratitude for the resources, but I'm not going to pay for something that is free, so I volunteered my services as Administrator. It's kind of like a way of showing your appreciation. Besides that, I had no idea what the financial condition of the sites was or would be. I think Bovada was the only advertiser even that long ago, so while I figured Wizard had other sources of income, and he did (Venetian, Consulting, AP) I didn't even know whether or not the Forum was a net moneymaker. In fact, there are still those that claim the Forum itself cannot be profitable. I obviously have no idea.

I was qualified to be a Mod of a gambling site in the context of having years of experience as a Moderator of other types of Forums. I don't think most people would volunteer to Moderate a site about a subject that doesn't interest them...but your ideal gambling Mod would probably know NOTHING about gambling, if you want my opinion. If you know nothing about the subject, then you enforce the Rules, as written, and have no biases.

If you know the subject, then you start (or I did) worrying about, "Value," to the Forum when enforcing the Rules. MickeyCrimm is the best-known example, I'd go in and Edit his drunken ass posts time and time again, but that's not going to happen for someone who I view as disruptive or not offering a lot of, "Value."

Anyway, gambling is gambling. Being an Admin is being an Admin. Unless a Forum has a rule that says that everything that is said on the Forum must be correct, the Admin really doesn't need to know the subject that well. The Admin is also going to be a lot less likely to develop, "Favorites," if he doesn't know the subject. Why would he? He's just reading posts for rule violations, doesn't really care about what they actually say.

But, if you wanted someone like that, you'd have to pay them.

Anyway, new ownership took over and I get paid to write for the sites. I don't have any problem being an unpaid Admin. If anyone who is or will be an Admin thinks it should be a paying gig, then they could probably ask about that if they want to. Has nothing to do with me.

There is no backdoor value. The first time I even left my area in the context of gambling is when Wizard flew me to Vegas 12/2013 after I'd been an Admin for over a year. I didn't even know he was going to do that until he told me he was going to do that. He was really appreciative because it was pretty much just the two of us actively Administrating there for awhile.

But, I never asked and didn't know I would get that or anything else. If there were any backdoor value, it's nothing that I sought out, expected or ever even approached anybody about. If someone comes up to me and wants to do something, there you have it, but I'm not going to approach anyone.

You may also be surprised to know that (unless you count Members of a team) I've only worked with four Forum Members on anything at all (to my knowledge). That's lifetime, and two of them are basically local.

So, you guys think that there are all of these, "Hidden benefits," and I'd like to know more about them. Hell, maybe I will ask to become an Admin again. I had a few little, "Gopher," type jobs that got me some free rooms and a few hundred bucks here and there. Even if that was a form of de facto, "Benefits," for being an Administration, I can promise you that my hourly sucked.

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Originally Posted by Monet

I think it's fair to say I share more real world information than most and I have always followed through on any deals and I try to keep it all public but I like the twists than Mission is saying I might be doing it for the long con or to out everyone lol. I can't prove that either way on a forum no matter what. See this is fun for me.

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That's my precise point. Anyone can come here with speculation, baseless accusations and conjecture; those things are all meaningless. Provable accusations are a different story, in my view, and if anyone asks me a question about something that is either provable or not provable, then I'm going to answer but only if I can do it without violating a confidence. The sum of the provable accusations against me is that I had lunch with WoN and Darkoz. The reason that is the sum is because that is the only thing that is true. Darkoz seems okay, by the way, I don't want anyone to think he is weird because of the mask thing.

Thanks for acknowledging that I responded to Waxie.

I truly don't have anything to hide, but that's kind of the problem. I can only answer to stuff that I actually know about, which isn't very much.

Years ago, when all this "moderating" stuff came to my attention on another site, I Googled what forum moderators should do under that job description. The first or second rule was not to post for other purposes. Just moderate. Knock down the what kills a forum, and then ban whoever keeps doing it. No explaining or other involvement. No "unwritten rules" or other rules that naturally continue to constantly change. Is it any mystery then, the WoV moderators end up composing such long-winded posts to nowhere?

I think the mask shit is weird for sure. This keeps getting better and better....lol
This is better than dudes turning into females with giant hobo bags.

I also like how they were comparing AP dick size for the first 10 minutes yet on WoV you were watching the ocean and heard nothing. I promised myself I was done, so I will refrain.

AP's want to preserve confidentiality, which I understand: why make it easy for a casino to ID you?

At WoVCons several attendees (presumably AP's) either declined to be photographed or held up something to block the image of their face when a group photo was taken.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

AP's want to preserve confidentiality, which I understand: why make it easy for a casino to ID you?

At WoVCons several attendees (presumably AP's) either declined to be photographed or held up something to block the image of their face when a group photo was taken.

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No offense to you, MisterV, but this is a post from a person who is not a professional AP, and has no idea what it is to make a living from AP play and the battles we face daily with the casino industry and those in it's employ attempting to take that opportunity away from us.

Sure cover you face. That protects you to some degree involving a public photograph. What about those in attendance. There are various members at WoV, such as Zcore13 that openly acknowledge he works for the casino industry. But there are more members that do not disclose that information. I am quite certain there are members at WoV that at least read, maybe not post much that are employed or associated with the database companies. Mike himself has a history of working with the casino industry that may very well make some feel uncomfortable (and that is not said as an attack of Mike).

I myself has never participated in a group meet-up of this kind. I have considered it several times with the green chip parties at BJ21 and the "Blackjack Bash" held annually associated with the old blackjackinfo site, where these is a little bit of vetting (as compared to zero at WoV meetup). I probably would again consider it if I was an active member at WoV. But each time I considered, I just could not get to a point that I was comfortable with. And at least a couple of those times, I missed out on some the opportunity to meet a couple members that were known to be in failing health at the time and passed shortly after the meetups. Guys that I had great respect for.

Maybe I am overly cautious....maybe even paranoid. But that is the environment of the AP/casino situation these days. And that is especially true for a card counter type AP. Machine AP's have casino industry wanting to stop them too, but we (table game AP's), have a whole extra level in the pit personnel that machine players don't have to deal with.

And dealing with Las Vegas as opposed to other areas of the country/world creates additional levels of concerns. Las Vegas is a unique place. Every AP know, has relatives, friends, neighbors that works in the industry. We see people who want nothing more than to take away our livelihood on a daily basis, even outside the casinos, at the grocery store, in the park, at restaurants, a concert or sporting event. So you, MisterV, someone not in this position, have no idea what it is to be an AP for living or what we go through. Yeah, cover your face....that fixes everything. :confused:

I agree I honestly don't know how you do it all day every day in the pit. They hawk the pit so hard. They literally watch someone playing black jack and count along constantly. Really sweaty and difficult to me.

I respect anyone who can make a living from black jack primarily in Vegas.

KJ, I wasn't being sarcastic; I only reported what I saw, and yes I fully understand the desire to remain anonymous.

But one has to wonder whether it is really worth it for casinos or their agents to spy on WoV, look at any pics of members posted online, befriend them and try to meet up, and to send a mole or two to a WoVCon to secretly photograph attendees for the benefit of the casinos / OSN, given the fact that there are "plenty of fish in the sea?"