The WoV Thread

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

"They can't wipe us out and they can't get rid of us because we're the people...."
MA JOAD in The Grapes of Wrath

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Great Movie... here I'll elaborate on your quote a bit.

Ma Joad: Rich fellas come up an' they die, an' their kids ain't no good an' they die out. But we keep a'comin'. We're the people that live. They can't wipe us out; they can't lick us. We'll go on forever, Pa, 'cause we're the people.

Tom Joad: Seems like the government's got more interest in a dead man than a live one.


The truth is that Mr V has some sort of misguided hatred against the panhandler or hustler panhandling in our society. If he is upset about his tax dollars, he shouldn't be upset at the homeless or criminals. If you really look into it you will find that a very tiny percentage of tax dollars really go to the poor. Has Mr V ever stood in a soup line? I have. The food in most of them are usually the bottom of the barrel. This is one reason when I give to the homeless I do it hand to hand giving them higher quality food directly. I used to take it to the missions but I found out that they gave all the good food to the managers or people in the programs. The street people never seen it. The same goes for our government. You can trust by the time the funds get to the missions that the money goes to paying the electric bills and salaries. This is after the politicians stole the lions share. Try not to be mad at your fellow man in the trenches with you because you should be mad at the government and charities for misappropriating the funds that you pay your tax dollars into. If you know anything about taxes you will know that even someone like me doesn't get away with anything just because I refuse to pay this or pay that. We have over 300 taxes that we pay that we do not even realize we are paying. Hidden fees and taxes. It is an interesting weaved up system by far. So don't get too mad at the guy asking for some change after buying your next Rolex or whatever else your splurging on. You can either just say no and keep on walking or don't say anything but don't try to tell me that your mad at them because your paying taxes directly to them. That isn't so cut and dry.

Monet, I understand there are several types of homelessness (or "houselessness," as it is now being described), and I have no ill feeling for folks involved in situational homelessness, such as a lady and kids forced to leave an abusive relationship who have no place to go.

I get it, and I sympathize.

I do have a problem with people who choose not to work, who drift around up and down the I-5 corridor, begging.

Lots of these shit for brains dumb fucks are doing it because they want to.

Any American who begs should be beaten down with a baseball bat.

Begging is unseemly, very, very uncool.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Monet, I understand there are several types of homelessness (or "houselessness," as it is now being described), and I have no ill feeling for folks involved in situational homelessness, such as a lady and kids forced to leave an abusive relationship who have no place to go.

I get it, and I sympathize.

I do have a problem with people who choose not to work, who drift around up and down the I-5 corridor, begging.

Lots of these shit for brains dumb fucks are doing it because they want to.

Any American who begs should be beaten down with a baseball bat.

Begging is unseemly, very, very uncool.

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I get it now. You just feed me more bait to keep me into this conversation. Oooh a piece of candy! I'll play along a little more with you. You missed your calling a few years ago with the Pinkertons and Boxcar Willies and such. Let us assume you beat down ever two bit hustling panhandler type in America and since your ruthlessness is so feared you have changed the order of Evolution and for the most part you have eradicated this Evil upon the world. Whats next? Surely we can't stop with these tiny cockroaches? You will have to continue down your crusade and never end!? Certainly no way to draw the line and that line will only get more and more complex as you get into people with the power and money doing many more atrocious Evils.!? What about the guy you have been friends with for 10 years and finds himself in a situation that he put himself in and is broke and casually asks you for a 20 grand loan until he is back on his feet? Will you get your Louisville Slugger out of the closet and paint your walls with his blood?

For the record I spent years hitchhiking around panhandling and hustling from one town to the next. Over 30k miles in hitchhiking alone. I banged around from LA, to Vegas to Portland Oregon on and on. I certainly do fit the bill to be beaten down with the MLB bat of your choice. Good thing you missed me or I would of been extinguished over 20 years ago with no chance of learning or becoming a more productive member of your precious society... All Hail Mr V with my outstretched right arm. Truth be told sometimes I still panhandle just to stay sharp on your streets of gold!

We all make our choices.

Monet, you and I have some similar history. I hate to brag but I'm somewhere above 100,000 miles hitchhiking. And I've probably got 10,000 plus miles on the rails. I was a day laborer. I knew where all the good day labor offices were in the western U.S. I was a bad ass day laborer. I did all the shit work no one in all those towns wanted to do. Packing furniture sure works up a sweat. Stacking 60 pound boxes kept me in shape. Toting 100 pound form boards up out of a pit and throwing them on the truck at 9600 feet altitude gives the lungs a good work out. Carrying prefab wash basin/cabinets up 8 flights of stairs all day keeps the legs in shape. I got requested by employers because I was known for no job being to tough for me.

But I carried a light load on the road and rails. A three pound sleeping bag and a day pack like the kind kids carry their books to school in. In those days the sleeping bags cost about $10 in Walmart and the day packs could be bought in thrift stores for a couple of bucks. I didn't pack the gear around in towns. I was always stashing them in the weeds along the highway. That's where I camped anyway. I didn't allow myself to get filthy and dirty either. Lots of places to take showers. I didn't want to look like a tramp in those towns. I was a well disguised homeless person. Consequently, my gear got stolen a number of times. But it was easy to replace. I used to laugh at the tramps that carried big backpacks full of who knows what. Clothes? They got clothes in the thrift shops in every town you come to. I carried one change of clothes in the pack, that's it. And a little grub. I also carried a good paperback book I would buy for 25 cents in the thrift shops. The Grapes of Wrath was one of them. Wherever I was camped I would read myself to sleep at night. Oh, and a $20 sony walkman. I used to like to jam out to the tunes while waiting on the on-ramp for a ride.

I both admired and hated the sign workers. They made easy money while I worked my ass off for low pay. But I was just to proud to work a sign. I'd rather dig a ditch and keep my pride. I just couldn't imagine some good looking chick come driving along and see me on the side of the road with a goddam "will work for food" sign. How frickin' embarrassing is that? I would want to shrivel up and die.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Monet, you and I have some similar history...

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It does appear that we do have a similar past. I didn't ride the rails because I didn't know exactly how and hitchhiking was just easier and you most likely would get work or a meal or a place to stay from people who pick you up. Since I was a tall skinny white kid I suppose that was a bit of an advantage. I have no doubt if I was black that I would not have had it as easy. No matter what Mr V or others like him think this country is not set up to be a fair playground. Another factor that can put people on the streets is just mental problems or capacity. Not everyone has the exact same mindset or skill set. Sometimes the smartest most capable people just have a wire snap in the brain and they are on the street begging for money or talking to themselves not showering every day. These people who think they are above others or in a better social class do not really understand the American Dream. The American Dream is all about doing whatever you want to do without tyranny of the ruling classes. If an individual wants to be a bum they are free to bum around in America. If that individual wants to work hard and be ethical... so be it! If they want to go to school and get a job paying thousands upon thousands of dollars per year... that's good too! The American Dream is all about being your own King and that we are all equal and that we are all free to choose our lifestyle without fear of the baseball bat to our heads. You want to give to the poor good! You don't want to give to the poor that's good too! What Mr V and others is really suggesting is a New World Order and Death to America and it is sad to say but his way of thinking is winning and it won't be long before this country is unrecognizable. Some could argue that it already is.

My history isn't exactly like yours. I banged around. I did the day labor thing but I also went up to Seattle and got on the Fishing Boats to Alaska. I went to the Orchards in Yakima and drove tractor for them for a spell. I spent a good year sleeping on the sidewalk in Santa Monica playing Poker and collecting welfare. I worked in Hotels as a Bartender and Room Service Server and Fine Dining Servers as well. I worked as a dealer and floor person in Vegas. I lied, cheated and stole my way through life. It's all an illusion and a house built on sand. I have close to a million in cash but no big deal... it can all come crashing down at any moment. Recently I watched my Aunt have a minor stroke and things just completely change over night. Honestly at any moment any of us can be stricken with blindness or become crippled over night. Let us see how easy it is to keep the money machine turning when something like that happens!?

Monet, our history keeps getting more similar. I bartended in the eighties at the Landing Strip in Juneau, The Sunset Inn in Fairbanks, The Oasis in Anchorage and the Gold Rush Saloon in White Center, a suburb of Seattle. And I know all about Ballard and the boats. Seattle is where the corporate offices for the Alaska Fisheries is located.

Okay, here's a scam I used to run. In Dutch Harbor they paid stevedores $14 an hour plus time and a half over 8 and time and a half over 40. The work was seasonal. This was in the late eighties/early nineties. A one-way-ticket from Seattle to Dutch was $550. I never had the money when the season came around. I would go around applying for a job in all the corporate offices in Seattle for the catcher processor boats based out of Dutch. When they hired me they had to fly me to Dutch to get on the boat. When I got to Dutch I walked off the plane and disappeared. I had no intention of working on one of the slave processors. I went to Sunmar Shipping and and went back to work loading and offloading freightlers for the season. Of course I had to pay my own way out of Dutch when the season was over. LOL!

PS: I had to get away from the bartending. It was like putting a bull in a china closet.

My beef is with those folks (some homeless, some not) who beg for money.

Whether it's some yahoo on the offramp with a cardboard sign or a spun woman begging any and all for "gas money" at the gas pumps, these people are an open sore and an embarrassment to all Americans.

I never saw this type of crap when I was growing up; why now?

I suspect that part of the problem is that a shit-load of the beggars are mentally ill folks who should be either institutionalized or closely monitored, but the new "honor system" of mental health care lets them disappear and go off their meds, leading to abject failure and begging.

Then we have those whose use and abuse of alcohol and/or drugs has led them to such a sorry state, and of course there are always those idiots who hit the road for fun and adventure.

Fuck them.

Not my problem.

Let your family, church, friends take care of you, don't be an embarrassment to us all by begging for alms.

My disgust peaked when I saw a chubby, white-bearded man begging at an offramp last xmas wearing a santa suit.

Enough.

Have they no shame?

No pride?

At least some are fighting back against this cancer.

Singer would be having a field day trolling the shit out of this thread if he were here now.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

We all make our choices.

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That's a questionable line at best. Of course, it's part and parcel of United States mythology circa 2018 that "we all make our choices," but saying it doesn't make it so.

If you actually read the social science literature, consider that virtually every study that tests human perception of "degree of control" in situations exposes the fact the people routinely overestimate their degree of control. Everything is perceived as being affected by one's decisions and abilities, whether it is or not. There are dozens of social and behavioral science journals. Read them. You don't have to be a trained scientist to get the gist.

And let's not forget that the world is probabilistic. If a gambling board should teach anything, it's that. At worst, we are a few years out from having programs that can run simulations of life paths and spit out probabilistic results. The same programs that fuel population analysis or simulate a 64-team tournament aren't far removed from being able to probabilistically predict life paths based on a handful of variables. These programs likely already exist, but aren't exactly publicized.

So while each individual animal makes moment-to-moment choices and strategies, the question isn't whether the choices are real, but whether the choices do or don't have significant effects, and does the starting resource level (and parents' resources) have more effect than "choices?"

If the variables that correlate most highly in U.S. society with income level are parents' income level and education (which costs money), then what does that say about "choices?"

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Originally Posted by mcap

Singer would be having a field day trolling the shit out of this thread if he were here now.

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Sure, but Singer is an insufferable bag of shit that only see's the worst in people. He's a thoroughly disgusting human being with no redeemable qualities. And Alan has his nose up that's hair ball's ass.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

My beef is with those folks (some homeless, some not) who beg for money.

Whether it's some yahoo on the offramp with a cardboard sign or a spun woman begging any and all for "gas money" at the gas pumps, these people are an open sore and an embarrassment to all Americans.

I never saw this type of crap when I was growing up; why now?

I suspect that part of the problem is that a shit-load of the beggars are mentally ill folks who should be either institutionalized or closely monitored, but the new "honor system" of mental health care lets them disappear and go off their meds, leading to abject failure and begging.

Then we have those whose use and abuse of alcohol and/or drugs has led them to such a sorry state, and of course there are always those idiots who hit the road for fun and adventure.

Fuck them.

Not my problem.

Let your family, church, friends take care of you, don't be an embarrassment to us all by begging for alms.

My disgust peaked when I saw a chubby, white-bearded man begging at an offramp last xmas wearing a santa suit.

Enough.

Have they no shame?

No pride?

At least some are fighting back against this cancer.

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V, there is only one reason for the proliferation of sign workers. There's money in it.

My first encounter with a sign worker I was thumbing I-84 and got dropped off in Boise at the Broadway exit. The traffic on the off ramp had to stop at a light then turn left to go into Boise. There sitting at the bottom of the off ramp, on the left hand side of traffic to be on the driver's side of the cars, was a sign worker. I was on the on ramp on the other side watching him while I was thumbing. Maybe every 30th car would hand him something.

After awhile he came over to me and told me he had a bunch of canned goods under the overpass and I was welcome to any and all I wanted. I walked down there with him and picked out a few cans of the good stuff. He had canned goods stacked three high for about ten feet. We had quite the conversation. He told me he didn't care about the food. He only wanted the money but some people would hand him a can of stuff and he would stash it under the overpass so as not to have to carry it around. I got a kick out of one of his lines. He told me "The tools are cheap for working signs. All you need is a magic marker and a piece of cardboard out of the dumpster." He also told me he worked signs to pay off his land in Montana. Then he pointed at the hotel next to the gas station and said "I'm gonna head back to the room for awhile. I'll come back out for rush hour. Hope you get a ride." LOL!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dj-ja...b_2599092.html

the libs and civil liberties union made sure that mentally ill are not treated against their will.

In the above case that was widely publicized in NY media, "Billie Boggs" would cover herself with feces and sit in front of high rent businesses . According to the civil liberties lawyers, it was not legal to remove her, as it is not dangerous to cover yourself in feces.

thats the world we live in. Screw the businesses that lost patrons because of her appearance and stench.

so you ask why police arent rounding up these homeless? Just read the above.....they have rights.

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Originally Posted by monet

Natural Selection might work for deer, bear, and other such animals but it doesn't work as well with humans who have emotions and some sort of a conscious.

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Why not? All emotions and consciousness are is just a more complex evolution of instinct. Animals are animals, whether they are human or other. Those who who do not benefit the tribe should be removed.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

We all make our choices.

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Free will is a myth. Religion is a joke. We are all pawns, controlled by something greater.

Memes. The DNA of the soul.

But what determines who each of us is, and who gets which life? Or, are we all one self that evens out among us?

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Originally Posted by pepe

Why not? All emotions and consciousness are is just a more complex evolution of instinct. Animals are animals, whether they are human or other. Those who who do not benefit the tribe should be removed.

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Your concepts fail when those who need to be removed are either yourself or the ones you care about. When the leaders come to execute your two children because they no longer benefit the tribe you will have a different way of thinking.

I think the better view is that "those who do not benefit the tribe" should no longer supported by the tribe.

We used to have poor houses: good idea, bring them back.

Let the homeless work for their daily bread, not beg.

This is Barney,

Ma and the Pa Joade were the greatest Americans and role models who teaches me very, very much about golden rules and the mathematics needed to be greatest AP at casino so I can get the chickys.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8XMeocLflc


Thank you very much

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I think the better view is that "those who do not benefit the tribe" should no longer supported by the tribe.

We used to have poor houses: good idea, bring them back.

Let the homeless work for their daily bread, not beg.

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as an american society we have long ago left that path of rational thought. as people sit in their armchairs and from long distance proclaim that anyone should be allowed to come into this country when they choose, and homeless mentally ill should be left alone, and the lazy homeless arent hurting anyone.

I grew up in a poor neighborhood, and i roamed the streets as a kid freely,....and never passed a homeless man sitting on the ground. or laying in front of a store, ot begging. Back then society didnt accept that behavior and speak of the rights of people to be homeless and beg.

But since then "civil liberties' have become one of the operable shields by which society has been allowed to deteriorate in the name of the constitution. Another shift that has allowed deterioration is tyhe acceptace of women/girl spreading their legs for men they dont really know and bringing children into the world. It used to be shameful, and reason to move out of town. Now its totally accepted. Its a way of life for some. Now a 14 year old tells you she is pregnant, and she gets told...."congratulations" .

Yeah, and the state gives the little bitch welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing: all at our collective expense.

Christ on a crutch, the American Dream is now a fucking nightmare, at least for those among us who actually work for a living and pay taxes.

that was the great thing about Giuliani when he became mayor in NYC.....he felt the if you let the little things "go" and look the other way, the bigger things follow.
So he cracked down on the pan handlers, and subway graffiti, and noise poltution from boom boxes(back then people actually carried them liek i did as a teen with a handheld transistor radio) ....making NYC noticeably more livable. He got alot of heat from the libs, but to his credit he didnt back down.

It all reverted back after he left, as it has spread to other parts of the country as well.

It was a nice try....but not many people with balls enough to make decisions like that are around anymore as "political correctness" and "civil liberties" have been used to send this country in a spiral downward.

The middle class is brutalized by this behavior, while the rich hollywood crowd sit atop the mountain in the hills of beverly and proclaim that the poor poor homeless need to be accepted as part of society as they are, ...after all...they will never be in contact with them like the working middle class who see them daily. And as they proclaim that all and any are welcome to this country as their children go to private schools with no immigrants in the classes and only immigrants in their neighborhoods doing manual labor.

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Originally Posted by monet

Your concepts fail when those who need to be removed are either yourself or the ones you care about. When the leaders come to execute your two children because they no longer benefit the tribe you will have a different way of thinking.

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At that point I define myself and my two children as the new tribe and view the leaders and their followers as a hostile tribe in conflict with mine. And then the stronger tribe shall survive, such is the will of nature.

The libtards in the Trump thread are all gaga again. Mueller indicted 13 Russians for meddling in the election by spreading stories favorable to Trump and disparaging Hillary. I'm sure Mueller, being the fair and impartial person that he is, will soon be indicting the Russians that put together all the fictitional disparaging information on Trump in the Steele dossier, in order to elevate Hillary. This is what the libtards don't get. If the Russians were so gung ho about getting Trump elected why did they put out all that disparaging information on him?

So Zenking got a two week vacation for vulgarity.

Those bright eyed pollyannas at WoV just don't get how he's trolled them for many months.

Nobody can really believe the line of cockamamie bullshit that douchenozzle spews.

He should have killed himself like he "threatened" to do; a bullshit threat, of course.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

So Zenking got a two week vacation for vulgarity.

Those bright eyed pollyannas at WoV just don't get how he's trolled them for many months.

Nobody can really believe the line of cockamamie bullshit that douchenozzle spews.

He should have killed himself like he "threatened" to do; a bullshit threat, of course.

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I don't know if ZenKinG is trolling anyone. Maybe he is. I don't think so. I just think he is clearly not cut out for blackjack card counting. Not at a level to make any kind of living as he desires. He just can not handle the swings involved. Some people can't. Some aren't cut out for it. ZenKing clearly isn't. Some do learn to deal with the swings (variance) as time goes on, but ZenKing just has shown no signs of that.

I have tried to help him as best I could being that I am not able to participate on the sites he was on. He joined GamblingForums just as it was collapsing last year and he has participated a little at blackjackinfo in the past few months, but he doesn't want to hear what I have to say, so I can't really offer him much.

One of the big things that I identified, and someone mentioned it today in that thread (I am sorry, I don't remember who), is that ZenKing is NOT playing to a 50 thousand bankroll as he thinks and says he is. He is probably playing to a 10 thousand bankroll, because that is about what he is really willing to lose. What this means is he is betting at levels as if he is playing to a 50k bankroll, but really playing to a $10k bankroll. That is over betting....fatally overbetting. That can only end one way. Each time his bankroll goes up or own 5k, which should be a 10% swings, which happens regularly (That's why a large BR is required), he ends up freaking out, because that is NOT a 10% swing to him. That is like a 50% swing of what he is really willing to lose. SO HE FREAKS OUT!

It's ok if he didn't want to risk his entire 50k net worth. He should have decided what he was really willing to risk (maybe 20k) and determined that to be his bankroll and set his betting levels and spread to where that bankroll could support his play at a reasonable RoR. But that's not what he has done.

What I did find really odd about that thread today is MrBo's participation. MrBo is a highly successful blackjack player, who has run a very successful blackjack team for several decades. If he is who I believe he is, he is a blackjack hall of fame member. I am surprised he is involved in a thread like that. I am not sure how or why MrBo found WoV and decided to start participating, but he obviously has not figured out that WoV is not a site about members helping one another, nor trying to help younger, newer members, like where I knew MrBo from. So I guess he sees people at WoV lining up to take their shots at Zenking, rather than attempt to help him and doesn't like it.

I doubt MrBo has read enough of the ZenKing diatribe to know that Zenking is beyond help at this point. Zenking doesn't even need help. He has all the answers! Las Vegas is mobbed up and cheats with Chinese prison cards. You are wasting your time, MrBo.

MrBo wrote as his opening post at WoV:

"As a professional blackjack player, who has managed and financed players for 40 years, I am familiar with KJ dating back 10 years to Kens Smith’s forum. I have alway been troubled by his message board posting. It would seem some of you have trouble differentiating between KJ the immature, thin skinned and often obnoxious poster of and KJ the blackjack player. Have any of you that are questioning KJ’s ability at the blackjack table and the legitimacy of his claims of professional play, actually witnessed him play?

I have seen him play on several occasions without his knowledge. He really isn’t that hard to find if you are inclined to. It takes but a few minutes to see him take control of the table, without anyone even knowing that he has. There is little doubt that he is an expert player. I have no doubts as to the validity of the claims he has made regarding his results. The thing I question is why?

I recruited KJ for my team 6 or 7 years ago, despite my concerns over his forum posting activities. As his posting activity has grown more disturbing in recent years, I don’t know if I would feel comfortable recruiting him again. Perhaps with some sort of silence agreement. But for anyone to suggest that his online activity is any indication of his blackjack ability, is someone who has not seen him play."

Hello, back-handed compliment.

Well thank you for reposting that MisterV. Did you think I missed these comments when they occurred, or did you just want to be sure I (and everyone else) knows that this person had some unflattering things to say about me. :confused: Mickey brought it up in another thread the day it occurred so yeah, I am well aware that MrBo does not approve of my posting on forums.

If MrBo is bojack from Ken Smith's Blackjackinfo back in the day, I have great respect for him for what he has achieved in blackjack as well as appreciate that he took an interest in me back in the day helped me both privately and publicly. So, he thinks I post too much. Big deal. He can join the club. :rolleyes: I don't see what business that is of his since I am not, nor ever was a member of his team.

One of the things I just adore is when people make comments about me on a site, where I can not respond. :mad:

MrBo = KJ :)

Can I get cliffs on this thread plx?

And yeah I had a hunch MrBo = KJ, thanks for confirming, Axel.

You would think that WoV would be glad to have a new member like MrBo. Imagine what a guy like that could tell you about blackjack. The stories he could tell. But no, Babs has to treat him like a fucking kid. No wonder AP's aren't flocking to the site anymore.

It's unbelievable the false premises the libtards start in the Trump thread. Trump never denied there was Russian meddling in elections. He only denied there was collusion between his campaign and the Russians. If you want fake news you don't have to go to CNN. Just go to the Trump thread at WoV. And with Babs moderating you've got the fox watching the henhouse.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

MrBo = KJ :)

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Hardly!

MrBo and I differ on several topics. He thinks I post too much. I am thinking....not enough. :rolleyes:

MrBo apparently feels bad and wants to help ZenKing. That ship has sailed for me. I think ZenKing is a nut, who deserves most of the shit he is getting because of his idiotic comments. I think ZenKing is not cut out for Blackjack card counting or any kind of AP. He should move on to the next thing in his life.

If I remember correctly, over-moderator Babs, looked into MrBo, when he first showed up and declared him not a previous member. I am guessing the others looked into that too.

But you know what, if MrBo is the guy from the old blackjackinfo, he is a BJ hall of fame guy (I am pretty sure). Doesn't Mike know and have contact with the Hall of Fame guys. He should be able to easily confirm. Or maybe he has and that's why he has remained silent.

I have come to think pretty little of you Axel, so I expect very little of you. But you continue to surprise me and set the bar at new lows with such a unfounded and easily disproven suggestion. I guess all is fair in disparaging me. Just make shit up! :(

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

You would think that WoV would be glad to have a new member like MrBo. Imagine what a guy like that could tell you about blackjack. The stories he could tell. But no, Babs has to treat him like a fucking kid. No wonder AP's aren't flocking to the site anymore.

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I would say a lot of AP's probably lurk the site, or just post random ass memes and stuff like I do

KJ, how can you claim you're not sure as to his identity when MrBo says he recruited you for his blackjack team 6 or 7 years ago?

One would think recruitment involves some form of personal contact, which would lead to introduction and exposure of identity?

Or was it all cloak and dagger?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

You would think that WoV would be glad to have a new member like MrBo. Imagine what a guy like that could tell you about blackjack. The stories he could tell. But no, Babs has to treat him like a fucking kid.

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This kind of caught me off guard. I had to go back and read it. I guess I missed where Babs was pissed because Bojack commented on Zenking. She is pissed so, she will likely drive away a very successful AP. I still wonder how Babs got to be in charge over there, because that's pretty much where they are at. She basically runs things. And look what that has resulted in. That site is nothing like it used to be. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

No wonder AP's aren't flocking to the site anymore.

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I honestly don't know why I ever signed up over there. :confused: In fairness, WoV was different when I signed up. It has really gone in the toilet and basically now has little to do with the topic of advantage play.

I am reviewing my history. Everyone knows about my banning 2 years ago, so I won't rehash that. But here are some things that have occurred since then:

1.) A member sid the squid was allowed to repeatedly attack me over and over before he was finally banned. Sid the squid blames me for his blackjack career not going as he had hoped.

2.) In one of his first posts, ZenKing made reference that I was responsible for his move to Las Vegas and HIS BJ career not going as he had hoped. he suggested that I worked for the casinos.

What the fuck....I never told anyone to quit their job and move to Vegas to pursue card counting....NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!

3.) About a year ago, well know AP James Grosjean, using a sockpuppet, made a disparaging post at WoV (and one of the blackjack sites) that I should have progressed much more than I have up the AP ladder. I am sorry, I haven't progressed to James's expectation. I like what I do. And I don't particularly like hole carding, which is James specialty.

4.) Recently member Horse, who was a Singer sock puppet, was allowed to make several attacks of me at WoV. The new rule that sock puppet's post were immediately removed, was overlooked, since he was attacking me. :rolleyes:

5.) And now my old friend bojack, shows up with some negative comments, wrapped around supposed support of me. I respect bojack, but come on, the guy suggested he came to Vegas and watched me play without my knowledge. He specifically said it isn't that hard to find me, which would encourage others to do so. :mad:

The AP community is really fucked up! Backstabbing and egos. And WoV seems to be at the center of all the negative shit. Mike has allowed this atmosphere. Without a doubt signing up at WoV was the worse decision of my AP career.

WoV is not a site dedicated to AP's.

It is the message board associated with WoO, which has no dedicated board of its own.

That AP's gravitated to WoV early on seems to have been more by coincidence than by design.

The board's primary purpose would be to provide correct info as to how to play various casino games, both recreationally and "professionally."

Question: was the Wiz ever a renowned blackjack AP?

If not, why should his board have to cater and pay homage to AP's?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

KJ, how can you claim you're not sure as to his identity when MrBo says he recruited you for his blackjack team 6 or 7 years ago?

One would think recruitment involves some form of personal contact, which would lead to introduction and exposure of identity?

Or was it all cloak and dagger?

---

I was recruited or asked if I had interest in joining 3 different teams. Two were new teams just being put together and besides that I wasn't really interested in team play, I didn't feel like they knew what they were doing. One of those two has gone on to pretty big success.

The third team was run by a member at Blackjackinfo with the handle bojack. Bojacks history was /is that of a long-time team manager and member of a very successful team that began in the late 70's in Atlantic City and is still successful today (although most members are getting older and slowing down). What I didn't realize at the time is that bojack's history is identical including years started to a well know, (one of the top BJ teams in history) team member and manager, who is a member of the blackjack hall of fame. The team is still know by this player's name.

So that's what I mean when I say I am now 90% sure bojack or MrBo was/is this rather famous BJ team organizer / player / manager. I am speaking of his real identity. I know bojack recruited me, I am just not yet 100% sure he is the BJ hall of fame guy with identical background. Pretty sure though....if I were a betting man.... :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Question: was the Wiz ever a renowned blackjack AP?

---

The answer is yes...absolutely. When Mike moved to Vegas, he was doing a lot of card counting in his early years. I am not going to speak for him and honestly don't know if that was ever his entire means of support. But that is where he started. I get the feeling that he pretty quickly expanded to other areas though.

Why are you asking me? You are on that site....ask him.

And yes, WoV used to be considered an AP "related" forum, when I signed up. It wasn't all AP discussions, that is one of the things I liked, but there was significant AP discussions and many cross-over members from a couple of the blackjack AP / card counting sites.

Not to slap at WoV, but it really doesn't have the reputation any longer. Many blackjack AP's were banned or driven away. It really is just sort of a goofy...I don't know how to even describe it other than a jr high atmosphere. Name-calling and trying to get one- another suspended and banned. Kid's stuff! It really has little to do with AP or even gambling these days and that is sad.

You know how you know WoV is so screwed up? You can go to the ban list, which is many pages, because Mike gets off on that shaming aspect (power trip), and you could easily make the top AP related site from members that have been banned! And it would be all facets of AP. Just think about that. :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Question: was the Wiz ever a renowned blackjack AP?

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Why are you asking me? You are on that site....ask him.

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Lack of balls? Look, I doubt that the "Wizard" was or is a renowned anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Question: was the Wiz ever a renowned blackjack AP?

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Why are you asking me? You are on that site....ask him.

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Lack of balls? Look, I doubt that the "Wizard" was or is a renowned anything.

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Renowned gaming mathematician for sure. Like or dislike him there’s no legitimate question to that

Were I to ask the Wiz on his board whether he was previously a renowned bj AP, I am quite certain he'd do an "Aw, shucks" routine.

Better to ask others, as I want the answer to be objective, not subjective.

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

My guess is the maids are used to seeing rooms not used. There has to be some people who check in, dump their luggage in the room then hit the casino floor and don't leave it until it's time to check out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

---

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

MrBo = KJ :)

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Hardly!

MrBo and I differ on several topics. He thinks I post too much. I am thinking....not enough. :rolleyes:

MrBo apparently feels bad and wants to help ZenKing. That ship has sailed for me. I think ZenKing is a nut, who deserves most of the shit he is getting because of his idiotic comments. I think ZenKing is not cut out for Blackjack card counting or any kind of AP. He should move on to the next thing in his life.

If I remember correctly, over-moderator Babs, looked into MrBo, when he first showed up and declared him not a previous member. I am guessing the others looked into that too.

But you know what, if MrBo is the guy from the old blackjackinfo, he is a BJ hall of fame guy (I am pretty sure). Doesn't Mike know and have contact with the Hall of Fame guys. He should be able to easily confirm. Or maybe he has and that's why he has remained silent.

I have come to think pretty little of you Axel, so I expect very little of you. But you continue to surprise me and set the bar at new lows with such a unfounded and easily disproven suggestion. I guess all is fair in disparaging me. Just make shit up! :(

---

methinks thou dost protest too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

MrBo = KJ :)

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Hardly!

MrBo and I differ on several topics. He thinks I post too much. I am thinking....not enough. :rolleyes:

MrBo apparently feels bad and wants to help ZenKing. That ship has sailed for me. I think ZenKing is a nut, who deserves most of the shit he is getting because of his idiotic comments. I think ZenKing is not cut out for Blackjack card counting or any kind of AP. He should move on to the next thing in his life.

If I remember correctly, over-moderator Babs, looked into MrBo, when he first showed up and declared him not a previous member. I am guessing the others looked into that too.

But you know what, if MrBo is the guy from the old blackjackinfo, he is a BJ hall of fame guy (I am pretty sure). Doesn't Mike know and have contact with the Hall of Fame guys. He should be able to easily confirm. Or maybe he has and that's why he has remained silent.

I have come to think pretty little of you Axel, so I expect very little of you. But you continue to surprise me and set the bar at new lows with such a unfounded and easily disproven suggestion. I guess all is fair in disparaging me. Just make shit up! :(

---

methinks thou dost protest too much.

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Care to wager? Name your price. And I will expect an apology as well. I think I can get Munchkin to contact and confirm who MrBo is. I assume you would accept Munchkins word. Or are you just being the complete dick that you have come to be of late? :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcap

Renowned gaming mathematician for sure. Like or dislike him there’s no legitimate question to that

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And his original claim to fame was writing a program that tracked baby names, which apparently had never been done before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

---

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

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I'm not a fan of Shackleford on a personal level but can you name a site that is anything comparable to to WOO? No, you can't. I'll say this so a 3rd grader can understand it so then maybe you will. MATHEMATICS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL OF GAMBLING. The only thing that is useless and trite around here is your ignorant opinions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

---

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

---

I'm not a fan of Shackleford on a personal level but can you name a site that is anything comparable to to WOO? No, you can't. I'll say this so a 3rd grader can understand it so then maybe you will. MATHEMATICS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL OF GAMBLING. The only thing that is useless and trite around here is your ignorant opinions.

Mickey, please go to a real math site, for a minute, to see what is mathematics.

https://math.stackexchange.com/

https://math.stackexchange.com/quest...ame-number-but

Shackleford knows only enough about, say, game theory to look like a jackass. You think that over the years he would have at least tried to learn something about game theory, but this was never his intent. His "work" is a "steaming" pile. A third-grade pile, relatively speaking. Jacobson tolerated him just long enough to peddle his own gambling wares.

Gambling math is mathematical, but mathematics ain't gambling math. There isn't "anything comparable" to either of his sites. Nobody else but the other gambling authors would bother.

There may be more powerful math wizards, point taken, but his WoO site has been of benefit to the gambling public.

Lol at bringing up Jacobsen as someone better. Very few people who have much of a clue on either side of the table have much respect for him or his “work” of regurgitating and verifying others work. Only helpful for the clueless, who mostly don’t care anyway.

I have been lurking for awhile now. I really do not even care or want to post anymore. Not even all the homeless talk could bring me out even though I had decent counterpoints. However after reading all this talk about the Wizard of Odds (MS), it is difficult not to post something. After actually meeting up with some of his members and knowing other math guys and gamblers I start to get a clear picture. As I have said before most people who defend this Wiz have some sort of interest in the real world with him or on the net and this is of a financial nature not a nature of being his friend. They aren't buddy buddy with him because they enjoy spending time with him. Most people who do know him say that they can't be around him more than an hour or so. Perhaps it is the other way around, perhaps the Wiz is too busy to be around them for extended periods of time. I don't know the guy but I knew for years that I didn't like his style. This Wiz isn't original at all. He doesn't condone illegal or immoral behavior but he admits to taking a known Mobsters Handle and he sure does talk about prostitutes a lot and even tells people where to find the better monetary value with prostitutes!?

I agree with Bill Yung and others about the guy. Those who think his site actually helped APs overall are wrong. He actually hurts AP. This isn't to say some clever APs haven't cozied up to him and used him for personal gains. That is clearly true. A year or so ago this Wiz went on his own site moaning and groaning about how some AP hustled him out of a few grand and never returned his calls or texts. A clear sucker, this Wiz lending out money to obvious Hustlers. I also agree with Bill Yung that this Wiz isn't very impressive and he basically has found a niche in the gaming world working both sides of the fence.

KewlJ brings up very valid points. On the internet and especially on WoV they talk a good game about how honest and moral they are but when you meet these people in real life you find that most of them are as crooked or more so than myself. Trust me the AP, gambling, hustler world is not an honest one and you will be hard pressed to find anyone being genuine. They don't want to be your friends or go out and do other things that don't involve making money. As a matter of fact if they know you have dough they will either ask to work for you in some way or ask to borrow it. Rightfully so! This AP world is about hustling and every hustler knows that being able to hustle a fellow hustler is more rewarding because to hustle someone who is wise is more difficult to do. I don't partake in hustling the hustlers anymore because I don't enjoy it but I am very keen on seeing the angles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monet

I have been lurking for awhile now. I really do not even care or want to post anymore. Not even all the homeless talk could bring me out even though I had decent counterpoints. However after reading all this talk about the Wizard of Odds (MS), it is difficult not to post something. After actually meeting up with some of his members and knowing other math guys and gamblers I start to get a clear picture. As I have said before most people who defend this Wiz have some sort of interest in the real world with him or on the net and this is of a financial nature not a nature of being his friend. They aren't buddy buddy with him because they enjoy spending time with him. Most people who do know him say that they can't be around him more than an hour or so. Perhaps it is the other way around, perhaps the Wiz is too busy to be around them for extended periods of time. I don't know the guy but I knew for years that I didn't like his style. This Wiz isn't original at all. He doesn't condone illegal or immoral behavior but he admits to taking a known Mobsters Handle and he sure does talk about prostitutes a lot and even tells people where to find the better monetary value with prostitutes!?

I agree with Bill Yung and others about the guy. Those who think his site actually helped APs overall are wrong. He actually hurts AP. This isn't to say some clever APs haven't cozied up to him and used him for personal gains. That is clearly true. A year or so ago this Wiz went on his own site moaning and groaning about how some AP hustled him out of a few grand and never returned his calls or texts. A clear sucker, this Wiz lending out money to obvious Hustlers. I also agree with Bill Yung that this Wiz isn't very impressive and he basically has found a niche in the gaming world working both sides of the fence.

KewlJ brings up very valid points. On the internet and especially on WoV they talk a good game about how honest and moral they are but when you meet these people in real life you find that most of them are as crooked or more so than myself. Trust me the AP, gambling, hustler world is not an honest one and you will be hard pressed to find anyone being genuine. They don't want to be your friends or go out and do other things that don't involve making money. As a matter of fact if they know you have dough they will either ask to work for you in some way or ask to borrow it. Rightfully so! This AP world is about hustling and every hustler knows that being able to hustle a fellow hustler is more rewarding because to hustle someone who is wise is more difficult to do. I don't partake in hustling the hustlers anymore because I don't enjoy it but I am very keen on seeing the angles.

---

Jeez. I’m surprised people have actually wanted to meet you with all your shit about cheating and hustling other people. Just because you do all that crap doesn’t mean everyone else does.

Let's put it this way RS. I'm in town now 25 years solid. Your upset because I am honest about being dishonest and telling these boards that the real truth is that anyone in the AP world is just as bad. You don't like it and that's ok but usually a guy like myself who admits to the ugly side is more willing to be less an ass in real life compared to the posters on forums who talk all moral and honest. I've met over a dozen players from these boards. Every time I pay all expenses. Thousand dollar dinners. 500 to 2000 dollar bottles of wine. Free Rooms and comp off of my own account asking for nothing in return. You talk a good game but I back my Bull Shit up with action. You don't like it... go jump in Lake Mead. I for one help the sigheeds of the world while someone like you tells people hustling Ultimate X machines to F Off! Yes it is true you and I are completely different.

Don’t try to justify and reason about why you’re a piece of shit, youre still being a pile of dung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

---

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

---

I've already been on stackexchange and even got one of those guys to post up here. Yes, they are degree'd mathematicians and very good. But so is Shackleford. He was a goddam actuary, for Christ sake. Put up some of your math so we can compare yours to his.

I think I may have known there was something fucked up about the Wizard before anyone else here or on WoV did. I can't remember exactly what year it was, maybe 2003 or 4. I had gleaned his single deck compositional strategy for blackjack off his site to work the IGT full pay video blackjack. The only thing I couldn't get was the 6-card charlie strategy and one other rule. If you look through his rules chart for the effect they have on the game you will find a rule for "Dealer stands on six cards." I'm personally responsible for that rule being on his chart.

That was one of the rules for the IGT game. I had no idea if it helped or hurt the player. I asked the Wiz about it in his Ask The Wizard column and signed it "Mickey in Reno." A couple weeks later he posted in his column "Mickey in Reno wants to know what the payback for video blackjack is. The answer is it depends on the rules." The asshole made me look like a complete idiot. I had friends in Reno that picked on me about it. "Hey, Mickey, what's the payback of video blackjack?" Then they would laugh their asses off.

A couple of weeks after that the rule popped up in his rules chart. He never would have heard about that rule if it wasn't for me. He took all the credit and made me look like an idiot. I said to myself right then "this dude is a punk motherfucker."

Hustle the casinos, not people and you can sleep at night and hold your head up high.

If your cheating people, it's not a matter of if, its when you will be caught.

I have been offered money for this or that regarding AP and I have never taken it.

I could have sold out a few times, but I never have.

I probably could have made more money working the dark side or hustling people. Hell, I hear people were making a shitload creating on UX and what not.

I could not look at myself in the mirror, or look at my GF and friends in the face I would feel like a piece of shit.

I have met many people from the boards and consider a few good friends. I have yet to meet someone that tried to take advantage of me. Probably because I am a good judge of character and dismissed them almost immediately upon first contact. Even people that I personally disagree with on various topics are fun to associate with.

PS- I'm not sure what can be made creating on UX but that seems so not worthwhile.

Your wrong Maxpen... it's pretty sick what can be done running suckers through that UX gauntlet and having your partner sweep up the multipliers. I don't bother with that hustle but I've seen it and heard some interesting stories about it. If your slick enough it's a huge profit.

Anyways it doesn't really matter... you guys want to shout from the mountain tops about how good and moral you are in a corrupt world, country, Casino... that's fine. I expect it. Only the Pentecostals are worse than the poker players and APs who think they are living in some moral or honorable trade or fashion. Just look at how many of you are currently bashing ZenKing on WoV! Actually... I text ZenKing from time to time. I apologized to him about jumping on the dogpile against him a good year on that site. I personally think ZenKing is a lot like many real life gamblers in Vegas. I hear them crying everyday like some of his posts. Anyone who says that emotions aren't part of AP are lying. I, myself am very good at taking large downswings without blinking but at times I hear the crack of the pool ball break like Eddie Felson in the Hustler after losing his bankroll. No human alive can not have some emotions with this day to day grind. I tend to think ZK is doing better than his rants. Either way I have more respect for him compared to many other WoVers.

Lastly... this site is great! I have to commend the leaders!! You can call someone a piece of dung and that's ok... and that is ok because real men can take that type of abuse and shake it off. Over here you can tell someone to GFY and we just keep plugging along with no bans or hurt girlie feelings like over at WoV.

The truth is that not too many people can refute what I post about in general. Sure, they can lash out and call me names or try to exert their moral dominance but they can't refute the edges or information I talk about. They cant refute that I actually help gamblers, bums and credit trolls. I actually don't look down on hookers or con men. We're all in this Titantic together getting ready to drown. When it is over I hope you moral APs get the best of it in the next life. Those are the real APs. The APs who lock up the win after the short time here on Earth are the real winners!

I hear Nick the Sick is operating in California these days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

There may be more powerful math wizards, point taken, but his WoO site has been of benefit to the gambling public.

---

That's another good question that won't be asked. Not that asking it at the "Wizard's" would lead to truthful answers, anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcap

Lol at bringing up Jacobsen as someone better. Very few people who have much of a clue on either side of the table have much respect for him or his “work” of regurgitating and verifying others work. Only helpful for the clueless, who mostly don’t care anyway.

---

Jacobson is a doctorate in math number theorist. How is that even comparable to a failed actuary or "glorified bean counter"? He bent over backward to correct literally everything the "Wizard" commented to math on in the forum, which isn't even close to something scientifically sensible.

Are we "all" going to start talking about anecdotal stories from college about half the class flunking out because of an organic chemistry course to make "big" of also actuarial science? Gamblers have so little math and other science background that they are easily fooled by the ones with a bit. The same phenomenon as Mendelson believing in 18 yo's and roulette dealers who spin numbers at will. People not even smart enough in some other area to know that it's not so simple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I've already been on stackexchange and even got one of those guys to post up here.

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You should've had him/her comment on the the "Wizard's" stuff in general. What are you afraid of? Hurting someone's feelings? The real deal wizards are the ones who would never call themselves that. The fake ones are the ones with gambling followers who can't face up to this. The ones who can give up, say, the bottle, but still not lose the anger inside.

It doesn't matter to me, because I realize that the "Wizard" will never be more than someone's booby prize. Nothing to hold your breath for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monet

Those are the real APs. The APs who lock up the win after the short time here on Earth are the real winners!

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Yes, of course. Not the insecure persons who post on internet forums.

How many marks do you think a creator could get to load up $100 worth of multipliers in a day. How many before him and his partner have to move stores? I have yet to run across a creator. Going to have some fun when I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcap

Lol at bringing up Jacobsen as someone better. Very few people who have much of a clue on either side of the table have much respect for him or his “work” of regurgitating and verifying others work. Only helpful for the clueless, who mostly don’t care anyway.

---

Jacobson is a doctorate in math number theorist. How is that even comparable to a failed actuary or "glorified bean counter"? He bent over backward to correct literally everything the "Wizard" commented to math on in the forum, which isn't even close to something scientifically sensible.

Are we "all" going to start talking about anecdotal stories from college about half the class flunking out because of an organic chemistry course to make "big" of also actuarial science? Gamblers have so little math and other science background that they are easily fooled by the ones with a bit. The same phenomenon as Mendelson believing in 18 yo's and roulette dealers who spin numbers at will. People not even smart enough in some other area to know that it's not so simple.

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Jacobson is one of your favorite kind of people, a failed AP. Everything in Advanced Advantage Play he learned from Grosjean, someone that applies gambling math successfully. Jacobson doesn't have that ability. He ripped Grosjean off in the book to try to cash and in before he got to old. He damn sure couldn't do it in gambling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I've already been on stackexchange and even got one of those guys to post up here.

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You should've had him/her comment on the the "Wizard's" stuff in general. What are you afraid of? Hurting someone's feelings? The real deal wizards are the ones who would never call themselves that. The fake ones are the ones with gambling followers who can't face up to this. The ones who can give up, say, the bottle, but still not lose the anger inside.

It doesn't matter to me, because I realize that the "Wizard" will never be more than someone's booby prize. Nothing to hold your breath for.

---

Well, you didn't have to ask the mathematician what he thinks of Shackleford. The mathematician is long gone. Right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

How many marks do you think a creator could get to load up $100 worth of multipliers in a day. How many before him and his partner have to move stores? I have yet to run across a creator. Going to have some fun when I do.

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Dominick, better known as Nick the Sick, lost the whole state of Nevada. That's why he's in California. You won't get to work him if you ever run into him. He works little old ladies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Jacobson is one of your favorite kind of people, a failed AP. Everything in Advanced Advantage Play he learned from Grosjean, someone that applies gambling math successfully. Jacobson doesn't have that ability. He ripped Grosjean off in the book to try to cash and in before he got to old. He damn sure couldn't do it in gambling.

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I guess that the proper analogy here is to a crack dealer. The guy who makes it uses chemistry, but he definitely isn't a chemist. The gist of AP's who think they are some sort of professional. Another form of delusion to satisfy their habits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

methinks thou dost protest too much.

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Care to wager? Name your price. And I will expect an apology as well. I think I can get Munchkin to contact and confirm who MrBo is. I assume you would accept Munchkins word. Or are you just being the complete dick that you have come to be of late? :(

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HELLO AXELWOLF? I am still waiting on a response? If you are going to throw around bullshit accusations, I would like to get a little money in on it. I realize I have the advantage since I already KNOW the outcome....for me it's like betting a game that I have already watched. :)

Axel, you become more of a troll everyday, I guess from spending to much time at "troll central". I see some of EvenBob rubbing off on you. You take pleasure in insulting and accusing right up to, but just shy of the line. What's the saying...."when in Rome....". or in this case "when in 3rd grade (WoV), you act like a third grader".

You might be a strong and knowledgeable AP, but as a person, you are pretty small. (That's not a height joke...although....;))

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I've already been on stackexchange and even got one of those guys to post up here.

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You should've had him/her comment on the the "Wizard's" stuff in general. What are you afraid of? Hurting someone's feelings? The real deal wizards are the ones who would never call themselves that. The fake ones are the ones with gambling followers who can't face up to this. The ones who can give up, say, the bottle, but still not lose the anger inside.

It doesn't matter to me, because I realize that the "Wizard" will never be more than someone's booby prize. Nothing to hold your breath for.

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Well, you didn't have to ask the mathematician what he thinks of Shackleford. The mathematician is long gone. Right?

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Yes, the mathematician is long gone. I brought him here to try to explain the "two dice problem" to Alan. After explaining it and seeing Alan's responses he told me he didn't have time to waste on a nutjob and left.

You portray yourself as someone knowledgeable about math and mathematicians. To the point that you think you can handicap them. Do you have a background in advanced mathematics or are you just some nutjob running his mouth?

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Jacobson is one of your favorite kind of people, a failed AP. Everything in Advanced Advantage Play he learned from Grosjean, someone that applies gambling math successfully. Jacobson doesn't have that ability. He ripped Grosjean off in the book to try to cash and in before he got to old. He damn sure couldn't do it in gambling.

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I guess that the proper analogy here is to a crack dealer. The guy who makes it uses chemistry, but he definitely isn't a chemist. The gist of AP's who think they are some sort of professional. Another form of delusion to satisfy their habits.

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Another anti-AP asshole. Why don't you quit with criticizing others and start posting YOUR strategies on how it's really done? Oh, that's right. You don't know jackshit about it.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

How many marks do you think a creator could get to load up $100 worth of multipliers in a day. How many before him and his partner have to move stores? I have yet to run across a creator. Going to have some fun when I do.

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Honestly I don't know. I know something is going on. Not only getting tourists to play Ultimate X but I have seen players getting people to play progressive reels and move them around building up certain jackpots. It is pretty amazing how many times I see the same grift. They tell the mark that this machine needs so many spins... ok now move over here... do this and now do that. I am guessing they use forums and social media to trap these fish. You make it sound like it isn't worth doing or that it isn't going on but it seems to me that it is happening daily and these guys are making bank doing it. I am sure they are even charging them a fee to show them around and maybe even asking for loans. Honestly if your going to do this sort of thing I don't see why you would just stop with some multipliers. It would seem to me that that is just a doorway and it opens up many other cons along the way. Show your mark a 10% gain and he will let you watch his kids over the weekend.

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Originally Posted by monet

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

How many marks do you think a creator could get to load up $100 worth of multipliers in a day. How many before him and his partner have to move stores? I have yet to run across a creator. Going to have some fun when I do.

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Honestly I don't know. I know something is going on. Not only getting tourists to play Ultimate X but I have seen players getting people to play progressive reels and move them around building up certain jackpots. It is pretty amazing how many times I see the same grift. They tell the mark that this machine needs so many spins... ok now move over here... do this and now do that. I am guessing they use forums and social media to trap these fish. You make it sound like it isn't worth doing or that it isn't going on but it seems to me that it is happening daily and these guys are making bank doing it. I am sure they are even charging them a fee to show them around and maybe even asking for loans. Honestly if your going to do this sort of thing I don't see why you would just stop with some multipliers. It would seem to me that that is just a doorway and it opens up many other cons along the way. Show your mark a 10% gain and he will let you watch his kids over the weekend.

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Go back 15 or 20 years and the creators used the Red Screen Bingo's and the Wild Cherry Bonus Pie's to create.

deleted, duplicate.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

How is that even comparable to a failed actuary or "glorified bean counter"?

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This is dishonest. How is Shackleford a "failed" actuary? He left one career to pursue something else. If you have some sort of evidence that he was fired or the government was unhappy with his work, present it....otherwise STFU!

Shackleford has numerous shortcoming that it is fair to be critical of. But if this is the battle you pick....you are just full of shit!

Yes, of course. Not the insecure persons who post on internet forums.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Bill, for giving us some insight into your issues with insecurity.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

HELLO AXELWOLF? I am still waiting on a response? If you are going to throw around bullshit accusations, I would like to get a little money in on it. I realize I have the advantage since I already KNOW the outcome....for me it's like betting a game that I have already watched. :)

Axel, you become more of a troll everyday, I guess from spending to much time at "troll central". I see some of EvenBob rubbing off on you. You take pleasure in insulting and accusing right up to, but just shy of the line. What's the saying...."when in Rome....". or in this case "when in 3rd grade (WoV), you act like a third grader".

You might be a strong and knowledgeable AP, but as a person, you are pretty small. (That's not a height joke...although....;))

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This is not possible. AP's like Axel, RS, Maxpen... etc. are the most ethical people in the AP world. These guys are so good they not only beat the Casino daily and years on end finding 10% winners and better but they do it in an honest, legal, legitimate manner. Of course it is ok to Hustle the Casino but to Hustle a person is some big no no. I just don't understand it. It is ok to Hustle but it is not ok to Hustle?? Now these guys will actually gamble against each other for money so its ok to hustle each other but not some poor dumb schmuck who doesn't know any better. His money is off limits. This is like saying it is ok to Rob a bank but not your neighbors house. It make no sense. Hustling is hustling and stealing is stealing.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Go back 15 or 20 years and the creators used the Red Screen Bingo's and the Wild Cherry Bonus Pie's to create.

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Boom Machines... those were fun. Diamond Mines too?