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I have a naive type question as I learn a little about aps, and monet tells us how he and others can be dishonest and shady..so based on that.
if someone starts a "team" how do you know that various members of the "team" arent pocketing winnings at a machine while the "bossman" isnt around.
From first principles.Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe
NO ITEMS FOX ONLYQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
LarryS... its pretty simple. Vegas is a very small town when your dealing with long term locals. It gets even smaller running crews or playing on a crew. Usually it's no different than any other job. When you play for someone you are usually getting an hourly wage. Sometimes you get paid just to sit there and lock down the machine or bank or maybe even to sign for jackpots. If you are playing for a percentage you are going to have to pony up serious cash.
Now the managers aren't going to bankroll you on a play by yourself. You are most likely going to be next to another team member at all times until you gain enough trust. I know some players in town who have burnt all the team bridges. Once you burn one bridge these teamers share all that information with each other and you are excommunicated. So you might be able to burn a team or some people but you are going to have a reputation that you won't be able to shake and nobody will let you in the loop again.
In my opinion you only play on a team if you have to and you should play it how the backers want you to play it. Your just a grunt and you should save up till you can do your own thing. Everyone has to make their own choices. Some guys like to be on a big team so they get more plays and information and these people have good social skills and enjoy working with others.
For me personally I just like to work alone. It isn't hard to get enough players cards and loop around playing small edges until you find bigger plays. I play things that are around a 1% winner and every week I fall into the easy 5% to 10% winners which are just easy money if you have the bankroll.
So basically the answer to your question is new team members are on probation for a long time and one screw up will cost them their job in a team environment.
On another note LarryS... I know about ten or so players who play on their own and call each other when jackpots are high. Interesting note about these guys. I've seen them run up huge bankrolls from mistakes and promotions but in the end they just run it back into the ground. I know one player who has ran it up over 6 figures many many times. He was close to 7 figures before donking most of it off online in PLO. Many of them have been hooked on ultimate x and they just can't stop going from 20k to broke over and over.
The one thing these guys do and it's been over 20 years is that they keep each other in action with loans to one another. I swear one guy always owes someone 15k but they do always seem to get out of the hole because they find something to crush because they live in the Casino 15 hours a day.
However only one guy owns things like a house and a car and has a family. All the others are basically degenerates who play winning games but have plenty of leaks. It's pretty wild... it's like they haven't grown up and they think it will last forever. Most of them are pushing 40s and 50s so pretty soon they will hit the wall because you just can't keep up with this rockstar lifestyle forever.
On yet another note... take AxelWolf... he claims he doesn't play much in the Casino anymore because he runs the crews and pays people to play for him. I figure he has been no mailed in a few places... I read where he said the Stratosphere told him his action wasn't welcome long ago. Age has to be catching up to him as well. It isn't easy playing machines day in day out. I'm on my hind legs as well. I've read studies that staring at monitors for long periods of time causes all sorts of health issues and after 30 years I'm starting to feel it. I honestly am trying to think of something else to do since the smoke and long hours are bothering me more than ever. The problem is I'm too old to start something new so I'm thinking just watch tv and go fishing and just bum around. I always said I retired at 24 years old anyway. I recently bought the Larry Sanders show but I'm done with 4 seasons... only two more to go and that will be done soon.
How about being a Wal-Mart greeter?Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Or maybe a fry cook at McDonalds?
You may be a self-proclaimed criminal but your record shouldn't prevent you from asking "You want fries with that?"
As for the description of the crew you mentioned above: wow, what a freakin' waste of a life.
In reading a bit of WoV and catching up over the past few days, I have to say, the site seems to have hit yet another low. These new low points are coming really frequently now. What a trainwreck that site is, with the over-moderating, all the name calling, everything a pissing contest. Even some usually decent posters/members (TomG, Billryan) have turned negative and been suspended. :(
But really all of that comes from the top. That is the environment, Wizard with his 3rd grade mentality has set and members and moderators are playing off it. It really is a very sad situation.
Thanks Monet......a reasonable explanation.
and KJ...I am proud of you.....seeing beyond me me me.
yes I agree, workers....even free workers...take on the attitude of the boss.....and some like BBB take that attitude and magnify it.
Monet, all snarky comments aside, I have to wonder why people choose to devote all their time and energy to team play / slot AP, when at least in theory they could have had a normal nine to five hum-drum existence with wife, kids, mortgage had they only chosen that path.
Instead of domesticity they opt for the life of a rogue.
Kind of like flipping the bird to society as a whole.
Interesting.
Honestly Mister V after a few months of reading your responses I don't think you really care about the subject matter on these boards. It seems like you enjoy the drama and back and forth more and you do what you can to keep it going. Nothing wrong with that, it's like watching TV for me sometimes as well. All the crazy talk or drama on these boards can be entertaining and responding to comments is fun as well. I don't think you look into or study the questions or points being made because just fasting alone you obviously have dismissed it and don't understand or read up on it. Of course I'm at an unfair advantage because I have nothing but free time 24/7 when I choose, so I can spend days reading up on trivial matters. Fasting for instance... I never said it could completely cure cancer or diseases but it clearly has been accepted in the medical field and doctors highly suggest it to go with chemo treatment. If you study it further you will find many cases that have used fasting along with change of lifestyle, diet and exercise and as I said before most importantly will power or the power of belief is your strongest weapon. Anyways... whatever.
About people and choices in the American Workplace. Not everyone wants to go to school and be a doctor or lawyer. I don't understand how you are boggled by that. Sometimes I wonder how a lawyer finds the time to post as much as you do? Maybe your case load isn't as demanding as I imagine or your like other people just running a crew and you don't have to work hand on very much. Whatever... enough about you.
First off Video Poker has already been proven to be the most addictive form of gambling so it makes sense when someone is broke or just starting to team up so they can get their fix and make some money. I find that many APs are degenerates but they can maintain like an alcoholic can maintain in the business world and still come out positive. Of course you'll find that many APs playing machines are alcoholics, drug addicts and who're mongers as well. However, many of them can still function and come out ahead but eventually everyone hits the wall sooner or later. The book The Egyptian or the movie shows this full circle of life going from nothing to rich and powerful to old and feeble living in a one room hut. That just how it is for most of us. Once your unable to keep the money machine rolling or everyone dies around you it's over. Rare exceptions aside most people crack up or break down or run out of money or energy... that's just fact.
Your kinda thick headed thinking everyone wants what you got or how you did things. Some people get into stealing for a living and team up. Some enjoy home invasions. Some get into writing or acting or washing dishes their whole life. The list is endless. I read how you guys at WoV give ZK a hard time about how he could make more money in a square job working 9/5 with health benefits. Ridiculous, not everyone thinks like that or wants it.
For the record though... I don't read your posts or RS's posts anymore but I got trapped on your last post and read the whole thing. Expect less of that from me in the future.
Aww, did someone’s feeling get hurt? ��Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Monet, I follow along on the threads you, Mickey and others post on the AP life; I think I understand it well enough.
Thank you and the others for posting that sort of information.
If your following the SaP/WoN thread you can see that it looks like WoN came in and posted some comments. You can see DarkOz get into a back and forth and you can see that he and his daughter were up to no good beating the Casino with Won's information and you can see that DarkOz's daughter did something against the agreement. The best part of the whole conversation is that players like BBB, AxelWolf, DarkOz and other APs aren't even upset st WoN or that WoN is stealing or whatever. The only thing they are mad about is WoN talking about plays that other APs are still taking advantage of and they don't want the play to get outed.
As I have preached the whole time is that we weren't getting the whole story and it was obvious that everyone involved was up to no good and they are continuing on in improper conduct to beat the Casino. This is just how the AP world is. I know because I've been doing it for over 20 years. Nobody is really upset at WoN... the APs are mad about people outing plays!
That thread is getting weird. What do you think WON was trying to do by jamming the machines?
Not exactly sure. I've been on machines that if I put in money and cashed out... the machine will lock up. So he was saying he was doing something to get free drawing tickets. He was also saying he was playing both sides on a machine so he couldn't lose and just keep earning drawing tickets for free. It doesn't really matter what was going on or what he was doing. The point is he was earning free drawing tickets and locking down free money on the drawing... most likely having a large team of players names on the tickets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prozema
Like I say though... it doesn't matter what he was doing specifically. The real issues are that players like waxie22 had all questions and posts deleted on suspicion of being a former member. Now WoN posts under two aliases and he isn't nuked/deleted. So obviously waxie22 had serious questions that were too close to home and upset players like the Wizard, BBB, AxelWolf, Zcore13, etc... even DarkOz never answered the issues that waxie22 brought up. So it's clear all the APs are doing the same treacherous things WoN is doing and they are only upset at talking about plays or outing plays. Clearly BBB has said it twice that the forum is not allowed to talk about AP plays. Honestly as I keep saying... that site is just an inner circle of APs with some outer circles who use rec players to partner up with players cards and what not. At the heart is the Wizard who preaches ethics and morality in gaming but refuses to answer the hard questions and just banishes anyone who challenges him or his minions. AxelWolf now stays in the shadows pulling strings through the backdoor PM system... etc. etc.
Remember DarkOz is the guy sleeping on the sidewalk in NY for a few years and his friends and family don't love him enough to let him stay permanently. It takes him years but he grinds his way up to running the most feared AP team on the East Coast and DarkOz runs around wearing a mask and puts make up on so he doesn't get recognized since he has been back roomed. Now DarkOz is defying orders from BBB saying he will out WoN and all his plays via PM... how long before DarkOz gets the ban hammer? If DarkOz gets banned will there be an outcry?
I caught that part where Babs shut down the conversation on what WON was doing. I can see now that many of them are involved in the grey area of gambling. Loose lips sink ships. Keep the public in the dark and feed them bullshit. And the Wizard is the top dog there.Quote:
Originally Posted by monetNot exactly sure. I've been on machines that if I put in money and cashed out... the machine will lock up. So he was saying he was doing something to get free drawing tickets. He was also saying he was playing both sides on a machine so he couldn't lose and just keep earning drawing tickets for free. It doesn't really matter what was going on or what he was doing. The point is he was earning free drawing tickets and locking down free money on the drawing... most likely having a large team of players names on the tickets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prozema
Like I say though... it doesn't matter what he was doing specifically. The real issues are that players like waxie22 had all questions and posts deleted on suspicion of being a former member. Now WoN posts under two aliases and he isn't nuked/deleted. So obviously waxie22 had serious questions that were too close to home and upset players like the Wizard, BBB, AxelWolf, Zcore13, etc... even DarkOz never answered the issues that waxie22 brought up. So it's clear all the APs are doing the same treacherous things WoN is doing and they are only upset at talking about plays or outing plays. Clearly BBB has said it twice that the forum is not allowed to talk about AP plays. Honestly as I keep saying... that site is just an inner circle of APs with some outer circles who use rec players to partner up with players cards and what not. At the heart is the Wizard who preaches ethics and morality in gaming but refuses to answer the hard questions and just banishes anyone who challenges him or his minions. AxelWolf now stays in the shadows pulling strings through the backdoor PM system... etc. etc.
Quote: darkoz
Actually WON signed on as a sock puppet and blurted out direct personal info about me such as a backrooming so i think you need to recognize in this scenario all gloves are OFF
I personally dont give a $h!+ about what WON rights are as far as plays go
I wont give out his personal info (even tho i am certain he would give out mine) nor blackmail him nor threaten him
But his plays feel free to pm me
Quote: BBB
You don't get it.
1. All of WoNs comments are now deleted, per Wizard's instructions about previously banned sock posts. So were some of yours, quoting him, and quotes others used. End of story.
2. You don't know WHO you're offering to pm stuff to. WE don't know who many of the members are. You're making huge assumptions in burning those bridges, because it's many more people than WoN affected by jackass revenge moves like you're pulling.
3. This is not what this forum is for. If people want to network, no problem. Screwing over the membership for petty revenge, big problem.
I'm sure it's too late to stop people from getting your responses, and there's no rule that supports me suspending you for it, so I won't be. But the bridge you're burning is mostly your own. Who is going to want to work with you now? It was bad enough when you burned that play a couple years ago; now you've proved you'll give up your partner's moves, or other AP stuff that wasn't even yours to tell. Enjoy being a solo AP, because that's where you're headed.
Still can't believe you would make this move as a "pro". Geez, guy.
Just look at BBB stick up for AP Plays. They and she aren't mad about WoN being a con man or thief... she is mad about outing plays and publicly talking about partners and plays. You all preach ethics and morality in gaming but that's a joke. BBB threatens and belittles APs that being solo is a bad thing but I wouldn't play it any other way. Players like MC and myself understand the advantages of being solo.
As usual Drawing Dead hits the nail on the head while calling out BBB. He as a few of us know that WoV is just a small inner circle of hustlers... excuse me... I meant honest APs. It is clear that sides have been taken and some of us are challenging the powers that be over there. You can see BBB is upset but is handcuffed in this situation. She should of just closed that thread weeks ago when she threatened to close it. Now she has more trouble to deal with. When is it going to be found out that her and others and possibly the Wizard himself were partnered up with WoN many times. That's what I'd bet my money on.
RS can rip on this forum as much as he wants but Monet and Mickey are worth following wherever they go.
Where was I upset about WON talking about plays? Please show me. You have no clue what people are or are not upset about. You just assume since I remained silent for whatever reason so you speculate and insinuate.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
back on about 3/16 I sent you a PM that you said you just deleted them.
I edited a small bit of it since it mentioned others who may not want their name to be bought up publicly.
I don't understand why it is that you would mention who I work with on a public forum or at all for that matter? I have only ever said publicly that I worked with Djatc and perhaps I have done a few things with some others. If I have mentioned to you that I had worked with (and I don't know that I have or not), I certainly said that in private. Especially since there are casino employees and Darksiders on the forums. (small part redacted )
There's a lot of people make a ton of assumptions over the last week or so. I have had at least 3 different people say things I NEVER SAID, they just assume things for some odd reason. You said you want to tell your stories about AP and plays, I may not agree with talking about plays, but respect you and your right to do so. I don't know why my name needs to be brought up all the time, especially when I haven't really been joining in?
I never mention your name in anything that could be remotely considered personal, private or derogatory or anything we talked about in person or private. I ask that you respect that about me as well.
Your posts come off like you have some kind of disdain for me and I really don't understand why. Again, perhaps you have contempt for people who you think have some holier than thou attitude I'm just not sure how or why you think that about me.
I have only ever said I have a problem with cheating individuals and I don't want to do anything illegal. I'm sure I have done stuff that has come close. I don't see how that is some HTT attitude. I have not bashed anyone or called them anything for saying they have done anything shady. I may point out that it could get them in trouble just in case they didn't or don't know.
I have said on WOV more than once and perhaps other forums that I have, and I will, work in gray areas. I have said multiple times, "if you want to make real money in AP, you must work in grey areas, they greyer you get the more you can make" I have never had a problem with telling people what kinds of stuff I have done when it comes to grey areas, I just don't feel the need to put it out there in public for the casinos and Darksiders to see, It makes no logical sense from a business standpoint(the same stuff comes up over and over).
I don't know if you notice it or not(It seems obvious to me) that you seem to be tossing out jabs at me(they seem like more than just jabs, and it seems frequent)? I don't think I need to go back and point them all out. I just don't understand why? I thought we were good? What is it that I have ever done to offend you or make you want to do that? I mean... a Joke here and there while razing someone is one thing, but yours certainly are not coming off that way. Its as if you want to play the bad guy and we are all in the WWF. But it's not the WWF it's real life and my real lively hood. I just want to make some money, be happy, have some fun on the forums and make some friends along the way.
You seem to think there is some Boys club or some shit(you seem to be anti boys club), I don't think that's the case, there is no boys club, I think its more of the fact that we all want to beat the casinos and have some stuff in common. (small part redacted )
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Since then, you keep mentioning my name in most of your posts (at least it seems that way) and it's all negative. You have mentioned plays that I told you about in private and conversations we had.
you have even gone further by making nasty insinuations about me on a few things, including the WON situation. You made it sound as if I stopped posting here when all that stuff was posted about WON. I 'stopped' posting here when you started the Hot sucker thread. I figured it was going to get nasty all around and I it was going to get exhausting. Its one thing sparing with people about dumb shit, But I really don't want to fight with other AP's because this shit can spill over into the real world and into the casinos. I don't need that since AP is my livelyhood.
I still haven't figured out why you have some kind of vendetta or whatever against me, especially since I have never argued with you contradicted you, been nasty to you or did anything. Everything had been a normal conversation even before we meet up at Griff's and after. Before and after we talked about some old plays and a few current plays and other mundane things.
Again, back to this. Please show me where I have shown a holier than though attitude(you keep saying that's what your beef is with 'us' AP's)
Let me say it again. I have my own personal lines. If I'm ashamed to tell my parents, GF OR Friends it's not somthing I (NOTICE i SAID I) want to engage in. I won't mark cards, rig slot machines, cap bets etc. I'm not going to sit and state in public what kinda grey stuff I would consider. If you want to talk about dark gray, go talk to someone like Phill Ivey.
Oh ya, Monet, mentioned that I had my friend working for me on Flush Attack when he was 20 and we used walkie-talkies to communicate when the bonus was on. This was over 25 years ago, and I was just a year or 2 older than him. Big Deal. I have no problem talking about any plays I have made or whatever greay areas I may have engaged in while face to face with somome or in private NO NEED TO POST IT UP FOR THE CASINOS AND DARKSIDERS TO READ ABOUT. That just seems FUCKING DUMB.
Regarding this WON situation, You(and a few others) might take my silence as some type of guilt or I'm somehow involved in anything like what he was being accused of or that I vouched for anyone or lead in a bad direction. I ABSOLUTELY 100% DID NOT DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT. YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY CREDIBLE PERSON WHO CAN HONESTLY SAY I DID ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE. I HAVE NEVER SCAMMED OR CONNED ANYONE OR LEAD ANYONE TO BE CONNED OR SCAMMED BY ANYONE. (yes, yes, tell us how we all fuck over the casinos and you think its the same, I know, I know, fair point. its just not the same TO ME and others, but i see your point.
I have always told people to watch out for everyone and make sure they get references from many people who have been around and have actully done stuff involving money. Don't just use the references of the people that person gave you either, ask around, and then ask again, get details, (not just one or two) Including asking about me as well if you wanted to do somthing with me. I have told people whenever you plan on working with me or anyone DONT PUT UP YOUR OWN MONEY.
Neither I or anyone I work with was scammed or conned by anyone.
I have talked to and know a significant amount of people on WOV, I have heard all kinds of stuff.
I do know that I was contacted by someone investigating this situation. I have heard it on good authority that there is going to be some lawsuits and possible criminal action from all sides even the websites could be involved. I dont know what will happend, I dont care to take chances.
I was advised the less I say the better, not that I did anything wrong or had anything to do with anything nefarious but I dont want to get drugg into shit. Lots of he said she said and shit being said and assumed about me and others, that's not true, especially since I could be subpoenaed if that happens, and then my name would be out there publicly. I don't need any of that BS in my life. My number one responsibility is to protect my friends and family first and foremost and then myself.
I have a clean conscious regarding all, this stuff and most people who know me, know this to be the case.
If people are going to pick this all apart and try to turn it into a got you moment looking for more information and a challenge and I remain silent its because I don't want to go back and forth especially when this shit starts to spill over into my real life. Hopefully, people can understand. I mean for christ sake, Monet, a guy who I thought we were at least on good terms gave me a ride close to my house. And now I feel as if he has some hate for me that's totally unprovoked.
I can't even imagine a gambling site where you can't post up how plays work. That's not how it used to be on WoV. I outed a lot of my own plays there. No one complained about it. They even cheered me on. So if you can't talk about plays what the hell do you talk about? Crocheting?Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
This current situation somewhat reminds me of exoter. He had no problem reading about my plays that he never heard of or seen before. But just as soon as I explained a play that he knew he jumped all over my ass for outing plays. That is, plays that HE was familiar with. But it was okay with him for me to write about the plays he didn't know.
This is a quote from Shackleford that I actually agree with:
"I'm not in the 'now that I know about it everybody shut up about it' crowd."