Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.

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And this is my point. We aren't getting a lot of legitimate questions here, other than by me. And sadly that is because this site is tainted. There are two distinct teams or sides on every topic and the guys that usually question and challenge almost everything aren't doing so because Singer is a member of their team (on most discussions). For proof of this just read how almost painful it was for slingshot to state that I was making a lot of sense to him. I mean it's comical, but it's not. This forum with it's two polarized sides or teams is just incapable of being objective on most issues. And that is both sides I am speaking of. That is why I would have liked to have seen some discussion of a possible Singer involvement (undetected for 5 years to the tune of 3 million) from WoV.

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Originally Posted by quahaug

Maybe I'm missing something but has anyone actually said what this supposed play is/was?

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quahaug, this is the article I came across yesterday. It is not the same article that I read a few years ago, so there are other articles out there. You will note how quickly these guys drew attention. Singers claim is that he executed this play, undetected, for 6 years prior to these two players to the tune of 3 million dollars.

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/

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Originally Posted by Mission146

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

A jackpot every month or longer. I played in every major casino from Wendover to Laughlin. The only hassles were from the occasional Slot Ambassadors, who asked if I had a card and why I wasn't using it. I was always polite, saying I'm just here to play and I'll probably use my card in a bit.

As for tipping on the many large jackpots I received up to multiple $100kers, I didn't. You come in once every month or two and play for a little while, they don't care.

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You hit a 4k jackpot every month (for example), you give $500 of every jackpot back, or try to, and at the end of a year...you look up $42,000. No thanks. Also, even though it is extremely unlikely, only playing with a card after you have hit a jackpot and never any other time could theoretically become an observable pattern. Why is this guy doing that?

Again, I admit no card at all ever might be a little extra cautious, but that's how I would play it.

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Your year end win/loss statement when playing vp is based on what your card shows, and does not include W2G's unless your card was inserted when you hit the jackpots. In every casino I played in except the Venetian, my won/loss statements show a loss every year. At the Venetian, I accidentally hit a $25 royal while trying to lose after hitting a $20k jackpot on $25.

You do not want to hit more than one of these winners in any single casino visit.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.

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And this is my point. We aren't getting a lot of legitimate questions here, other than by me. And sadly that is because this site is tainted. There are two distinct teams or sides on every topic and the guys that usually question and challenge almost everything aren't doing so because Singer is a member of their team (on most discussions). For proof of this just read how almost painful it was for slingshot to state that I was making a lot of sense to him. I mean it's comical, but it's not. This forum with it's two polarized sides or teams is just incapable of being objective on most issues. And that is both sides I am speaking of. That is why I would have liked to have seen some discussion of a possible Singer involvement (undetected for 5 years to the tune of 3 million) from WoV.

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Kew, you're complaining because you want to think you're the only one asking the questions, but as usual you are wrong. I've received quite a few of them via pm and email, and there were some by axel and Mickey via telecon. And without being unduly cruel, you seem to be a little too dense to understand what this is all about. Sort of like what you WoV guys thought about Alan with the dice problem.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by quahaug

Maybe I'm missing something but has anyone actually said what this supposed play is/was?

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quahaug, this is the article I came across yesterday. It is not the same article that I read a few years ago, so there are other articles out there. You will note how quickly these guys drew attention. Singers claim is that he executed this play, undetected, for 6 years prior to these two players to the tune of 3 million dollars.

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/

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This is the article I remember reading. As I said, the steps the writer identifies are not correct. Maybe intentionally so.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

In general terms, this has been discussed at WoV and I've written an article relating back to Nestor and Kane maybe a couple years ago. I could have probably fired off more specifics without going back to look at it at one time, but it's been awhile since I wrote about it. I don't know anything about discussion not being permitted, as far as I can tell, nobody has really created or added to a thread over there about Singer's involvement.

Maybe there would be skeptics. That said, we know that there absolutely was a play of this nature and we know the generalities of the play. Because we know that people actually engaged in this play, it is conceivable that people other than those known discovered the play. Because Rob Singer is a person, it is possible he came to know about the play and exploited it.

Point is, we're talking about something that definitely occurred for Nestor and Kane. I think anyone who just randomly popped up (Singer or otherwise) claiming to have done this play would get some, "Scrutiny." I don't know why anyone to ever do this play would even want to discuss it other than for the purpose of bragging, but again, that's just my opinion. Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.

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I waited ten years to bring this up, and other than for legal safety the reason is valid and it's not due to bragging rights. I am a known person in the vp world who was not able to be entirely honest in multiple forms of media after my first four years of playing professionally using my strategy. I was constantly criticized for writing in Gaming Today for years about hitting hi limit jackpots week after week. I was called a liar and every name in the envy book. People wondered where I got the $640,000 cash I put up as escrow to take on Fezzik and the LVA crowd.

I've chosen to attach an explanation to all that ten years + later. I've been labeled a con man, a losing player, and whatever else AP's could think of as their way of pretending I couldn't be for real. Well, imagine how satisfying it all was back then as I was the one playing the with best advantage ever in video poker.

Oh, that 5th card flip over stuff? Simple diversion and entertainment as I piled up the profits.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

As far as the exact process of causing this, only the manufacturer, the guys to actually do it and anyone they may have told would know that. There was a list of steps as to how it was done once published, but many people claim that list is incorrect. I don't know whether that list is incorrect or not.

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The only person to make the claim that the process was incorrect was Rob. He did it earlier in this thread and later in this thread. It is obvious in the articles written about Kane and Nestor that the authors were in contact and received information from IGT technicians. Would those IGT techs really give out the correct formula to get to the big jackpot. I don't think so. I think they intentionally engaged in some disinformation to protect against it happening in the future.

It is Rob and only Rob saying that bit of information was not correct. Only someone that was actually doing it would know that.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by Mission146

In general terms, this has been discussed at WoV and I've written an article relating back to Nestor and Kane maybe a couple years ago. I could have probably fired off more specifics without going back to look at it at one time, but it's been awhile since I wrote about it. I don't know anything about discussion not being permitted, as far as I can tell, nobody has really created or added to a thread over there about Singer's involvement.

Maybe there would be skeptics. That said, we know that there absolutely was a play of this nature and we know the generalities of the play. Because we know that people actually engaged in this play, it is conceivable that people other than those known discovered the play. Because Rob Singer is a person, it is possible he came to know about the play and exploited it.

Point is, we're talking about something that definitely occurred for Nestor and Kane. I think anyone who just randomly popped up (Singer or otherwise) claiming to have done this play would get some, "Scrutiny." I don't know why anyone to ever do this play would even want to discuss it other than for the purpose of bragging, but again, that's just my opinion. Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.

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I waited ten years to bring this up, and other than for legal safety the reason is valid and it's not due to bragging rights. I am a known person in the vp world who was not able to be entirely honest in multiple forms of media after my first four years of playing professionally using my strategy. I was constantly criticized for writing in Gaming Today for years about hitting hi limit jackpots week after week. I was called a liar and every name in the envy book. People wondered where I got the $640,000 cash I put up as escrow to take on Fezzik and the LVA crowd.

I've chosen to attach an explanation to all that ten years + later. I've been labeled a con man, a losing player, and whatever else AP's could think of as their way of pretending I couldn't be for real. Well, imagine how satisfying it all was back then as I was the one playing the with best advantage ever in video poker.

Oh, that 5th card flip over stuff? Simple diversion and entertainment as I piled up the profits.

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This is some hilarious stuff, Rob. So you were intentionally making yourself look like a crackpot with the 5th card flip. You must have been laughing your ass off as all us AP's spent so much time working on debunking the claim. So who did you say was pulling whose chain? LOL! And I'll bet Fezzik's eyes were popping out when you posted the 640K. Back when that was going on I was thinking no way you could throw down 640K like that. Now I believe it.

Here are the not so simple facts for most people, and it will be my last post on the subject unless there are any valid questions. I am not going back and forth any more on arguing anything about it with anyone. I have answered questions via pm, email, texting, and telephone. Several outlets have already asked to interview me.

--The 2 idiots (and I DO mean idiots. They destroyed my cash cow) who got caught were addicted losing gamblers who got lost in the clouds when they stumbled upon this play, and they ended up disgraced. I played this for almost 5-1/2 years before they found it, I never told a soul including my family, I played it in STRICTLY One-and-Done fashion, I cleverly manipulated my card use and non-use, I played all over the state never hitting the same casino in 30 or more days, and I paid taxes on my income honestly.

--As far as I've seen, I believe only axel had a beat on how exactly this play is worked. As I've said, the steps outlined in the Wired article are incorrect. I can explain the play perfectly but I'm not decided on how/where to do that yet.

--I discovered the flaw by looking for it or something like it, brought on by a motivation and vengeance for losing as an AP previously. I spent four years in doing so. I started with the question "When is a video poker hand over--but not REALLY over--and I went from there. Double up obviously. Four years in, I sat staring at many machines as the double up option asked if I wanted to double my credits or not as I pushed buttons, all to no avail. Then I saw it--the bill feeder light was on when it never is after the deal button is pushed and until the hand is completely over. So I pushed in a 20, and the surrealism began.

--IGT has these machines all over the world and on cruise ships. When they sent out the eprom program fix each individual machine had to be updated. This of course is an impossible job, because it's people and not robots who were tasked with doing this, and there's always machines out of service, in repair, in transit etc. There ARE still machines with the flaw. It's just a question of where. Barona and Peppermill Corporation casinos (Reno, Sparks, Wendover, and LV) have standing orders for the past 10 years not to enable double up on any machine ever. I'm sure there are others. Most other casinos allow it if you ask, or they already have it turned on in other machines.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by Mission146

In general terms, this has been discussed at WoV and I've written an article relating back to Nestor and Kane maybe a couple years ago. I could have probably fired off more specifics without going back to look at it at one time, but it's been awhile since I wrote about it. I don't know anything about discussion not being permitted, as far as I can tell, nobody has really created or added to a thread over there about Singer's involvement.

Maybe there would be skeptics. That said, we know that there absolutely was a play of this nature and we know the generalities of the play. Because we know that people actually engaged in this play, it is conceivable that people other than those known discovered the play. Because Rob Singer is a person, it is possible he came to know about the play and exploited it.

Point is, we're talking about something that definitely occurred for Nestor and Kane. I think anyone who just randomly popped up (Singer or otherwise) claiming to have done this play would get some, "Scrutiny." I don't know why anyone to ever do this play would even want to discuss it other than for the purpose of bragging, but again, that's just my opinion. Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.

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I waited ten years to bring this up, and other than for legal safety the reason is valid and it's not due to bragging rights. I am a known person in the vp world who was not able to be entirely honest in multiple forms of media after my first four years of playing professionally using my strategy. I was constantly criticized for writing in Gaming Today for years about hitting hi limit jackpots week after week. I was called a liar and every name in the envy book. People wondered where I got the $640,000 cash I put up as escrow to take on Fezzik and the LVA crowd.

I've chosen to attach an explanation to all that ten years + later. I've been labeled a con man, a losing player, and whatever else AP's could think of as their way of pretending I couldn't be for real. Well, imagine how satisfying it all was back then as I was the one playing the with best advantage ever in video poker.

Oh, that 5th card flip over stuff? Simple diversion and entertainment as I piled up the profits.

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This is some hilarious stuff, Rob. So you were intentionally making yourself look like a crackpot with the 5th card flip. You must have been laughing your ass off as all us AP's spent so much time working on debunking the claim. So who did you say was pulling whose chain? LOL! And I'll bet Fezzik's eyes were popping out when you posted the 640K. Back when that was going on I was thinking no way you could throw down 640K like that. Now I believe it.

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And you were a part of that.

Those are the type of things I had to do to protect myself and the play, that I wish I didn't have to do.

On the $640k Fezzik bet, I made up the story that I got this from my 401k, when in fact no one in their right mind would happily pay a 10% early withdrawal penalty for a bet like this. I also made the bet very high expecting the other side to just walk away, and it worked. If I were to have to prove my winnings, the real numbers would have been so high that nobody would know what to say.

Oh, also: I was never truly able to get my 2007/8/9 tax returns to Alan for the arci bet. I claimed about a $100k/yr. profit, but it was really more than 5 times that. Explaining that would have not been possible back then, as I was still within the statute of limitations.

Not my proudest moments in my vp career.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I waited ten years to bring this up, and other than for legal safety the reason is valid and it's not due to bragging rights. I am a known person in the vp world who was not able to be entirely honest in multiple forms of media after my first four years of playing professionally using my strategy. I was constantly criticized for writing in Gaming Today for years about hitting hi limit jackpots week after week. I was called a liar and every name in the envy book. People wondered where I got the $640,000 cash I put up as escrow to take on Fezzik and the LVA crowd.

I've chosen to attach an explanation to all that ten years + later. I've been labeled a con man, a losing player, and whatever else AP's could think of as their way of pretending I couldn't be for real. Well, imagine how satisfying it all was back then as I was the one playing the with best advantage ever in video poker.

Oh, that 5th card flip over stuff? Simple diversion and entertainment as I piled up the profits.

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This is some hilarious stuff, Rob. So you were intentionally making yourself look like a crackpot with the 5th card flip. You must have been laughing your ass off as all us AP's spent so much time working on debunking the claim. So who did you say was pulling whose chain? LOL! And I'll bet Fezzik's eyes were popping out when you posted the 640K. Back when that was going on I was thinking no way you could throw down 640K like that. Now I believe it.

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And you were a part of that.

Those are the type of things I had to do to protect myself and the play, that I wish I didn't have to do.

On the $640k Fezzik bet, I made up the story that I got this from my 401k, when in fact no one in their right mind would happily pay a 10% early withdrawal penalty for a bet like this. I also made the bet very high expecting the other side to just walk away, and it worked. If I were to have to prove my winnings, the real numbers would have been so high that nobody would know what to say.

Not my proudest moments in my vp career.

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One last thing. If you were to have delivered your tax returns to Alan they would have shown 500K a year instead of 100K? It must have been a monumental effort on your part not to put them up. You could have shoved it way down our throats on that one.

Is what Rob is costuming is that he is the one that discovered the double up bug??? Laughable at best.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is what Rob is costuming is that he is the one that discovered the double up bug??? Laughable at best.

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Yeah, pretty much. To me, it sounds like Rob is trying to get some kind of "verification" by the community and came up with a story.

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is what Rob is costuming is that he is the one that discovered the double up bug??? Laughable at best.

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Yeah, pretty much. To me, it sounds like Rob is trying to get some kind of "verification" by the community and came up with a story.

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Exactly my point and feeling. No offense to Mickey and Axel but I think they are being played, unless there is more information they haven't shared. The thing Singer just mentioned about the dollar insert slot lighting up which clued him in, is in the article, so that is no revelation. So the thing that has been revealed so far that Mickey and Axel are finding credible is that Singer is saying the sequence in the article is not correct. Mickey speculates that could be because the information came from Game king and they intestinally gave the incorrect info, thus making Singer seem credible.

But I see no mention of Game King technicians in the article. But I do see several references and quotes by the Nevada Gaming Commission technician John Lastusky. I think the sequence may have come from him, or possible even Nestor who is quoted many times and obviously worked with the author, whereas Kane declined to comment for the article.

So I have an email in to the Author of the Article, Kevin Poulsen just to see where the information regarding the sequence came from. Because if it is either Nestor himself or the Nevada Gaming Tech, that makes the sequence posted more credible and Singer less credible. So we will see if I get a response.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is what Rob is costuming is that he is the one that discovered the double up bug??? Laughable at best.

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Not only that he "discovered" the double up bug, BUT that he played it for 6 years....undetected....winning over 3 million dollars. I don't know about laughable, but I think highly unlikely.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

No one else wants to weigh in on this? Slingshot, you seem a reasonable man to me. Do you think this is a fair way to "win" money from the casino? I wish Alan were here. I'd like to hear his take. :rolleyes: Hey where is our casino industry lover/ supporter Bob21? I wonder what he thinks about this? ;)

Axelwolf and Mickeycrimm, you two are not going to weigh in? There is actually a reason that Axelwolf was Robs first choice to reveal this to. Singer thinks Axel is probably just as unsavory, with an "anything goes" attitude. Axel, was Rob right?

People might think I am being too damn judgmental here, but here's the thing. Legitimate AP's can only win if we are able to get a fair game. If the casino industry is going to cheat, rigged shuffle machines, short decks, rigged slot and video poker machines we can't win. And we won't tolerate cheating from the casino industry. Are we then to say but it is acceptable from the players?

If the attitude is anything goes because it is a casino, then the whole system breaks down. (I know people like Monet will say it already has). :(

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Dude, or whatever:D Some of us get busy and don't have time to monitor the forums 24/7, even with Mobil technology. I never had a sugar, dead parents, a trust fund or any real safety nets.

I got up at 5:AM Tuesday took a flight drove and played all day until about 11 at night. I was so tired I didn't even want to drive 30 more minutes to get a hotel so I just pulled off and slept for 5 hours in the car with the engine running, fortunately, It was a nice comfortable with lots of room . Then drove and played all day, I just got back to Vegas a little while ago. Yes over many years I have been able to rack up some posts on WOV. Many of those posts are short and many were done while I was raping online casinos on multiple computers using auto spin until I had to make my picks on bonus rounds. So, had lots of time to fuck about online doing whatever I pleased. That's the only reason I ever started posting on WOV(looking for information on a site I felt was gaffed(and I was right on the money). Before that, I had very few posts on any forums. And of course, I don't let the forums get to me and fuck with my head like some people do. 99% positive aspects have come from the forums for me.

I haven't kept up with all the treads you and others started about this. I have no idea whats going on at this point or even if Rob explained what it was to the forum.

To answer your question, I will do anything in a casino I think is legal, and, without any moral hesitation. I would have been all over the double up bug play had I found it. I have been on machines with bugs, however, they were normally only on a select few machines at a time. I have probably done some stuff in the past that may not have been legal. From my understanding, even in some states it's illegal to use other peoples players cards.

Do you think it's ok if someone makes bets for you or you make them for someone else? Have you ever made a side bet with someone, would you? How much would have you bet on the O/U on Rob's dick size? We all have our own lines. If I don't like where sometimes line is set at, I just try to avoid them.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I'll tell you this, in general, the eye in the sky is more concerned about you counting cards than it is with the machines.

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Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Mission is correct. That surveillance is more concerned with employee theft than AP is both true and irrelevant.

Card counting is going to be at the top of the list of AP they look for. Machine bugs or "suspicious machine wins" are not even on the list.

They may well observe handpays but that would be to look for employee theft or error. They *might* look for.multicarding if they have recently been told to crack down.

There is no chance they are looking for undiagnosed machine glitches. These things are incalculably rare.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is what Rob is costuming is that he is the one that discovered the double up bug??? Laughable at best.

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Yeah, pretty much. To me, it sounds like Rob is trying to get some kind of "verification" by the community and came up with a story.

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Exactly my point and feeling. No offense to Mickey and Axel but I think they are being played, unless there is more information they haven't shared. The thing Singer just mentioned about the dollar insert slot lighting up which clued him in, is in the article, so that is no revelation. So the thing that has been revealed so far that Mickey and Axel are finding credible is that Singer is saying the sequence in the article is not correct. Mickey speculates that could be because the information came from Game king and they intestinally gave the incorrect info, thus making Singer seem credible.

But I see no mention of Game King technicians in the article. But I do see several references and quotes by the Nevada Gaming Commission technician John Lastusky. I think the sequence may have come from him, or possible even Nestor who is quoted many times and obviously worked with the author, whereas Kane declined to comment for the article.

So I have an email in to the Author of the Article, Kevin Poulsen just to see where the information regarding the sequence came from. Because if it is either Nestor himself or the Nevada Gaming Tech, that makes the sequence posted more credible and Singer less credible. So we will see if I get a response.

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Sorry, KJ but Singer is not making this story up. Not thinking about it when I first read the articles but in hindsight why would the real sequence be published when there are machines all over the world that could possibly be exploited. They would just be asking for trouble. It was obviously disinformation. Rob knew a worldwide memo was sent out in 2009 telling everyone to disable the double up until further notice. I assume he learned it from a casino employee when requesting a double up be enabled. I don't think he knew anything about Kane and Nestor until quite awhile after that event. He just knew something was up if they sent out such a memo.

Another thing. Why did Kane and Nestor get busted so quickly? Hitting five or six taxables on the same machine in a few hour period when you are doing something shady is stupid. Using the same hand multiple times when you are doing something shady is stupid. Hitting the same casino over and over again in a short period of time when you are doing something shady is stupid. Stupid because it's all easily noticed.

Singer's one and done strategy on the play is the same as your one and done strategy on showing your spread at blackjack.

A few questions I'll respond to.

First, my constant participation in this forum recently is only a function of my being laid up with a broken foot awaiting surgery next month. Busy people just can't keep up daily. That's what makes kew the 9th wonder of the world.

--jbjb asks if I'm saying I "discovered" this play. Well, I discovered it for me, and that's all I'll claim. That was in Feb. 2004. There very well may have been other(s) who found it earlier or later, although highly unlikely because most people don't know how to keep their mouths shut. And I will say, do you people actually think I would have expected the hate & envy-filled anti-Singer bunch around here to just accept this without trying to twist and turn and create new "facts" in order that they may cope easier? Had I explained what I did to each of you on the phone like I did with axel and mickey instead of the continuous chorus of trying to find alternate rationales, I guarantee there wouldn't be a single anti-Singer remark made. Of course there's no "proof" attached to this--too much time has passed. But how many times have we seen kew claim he doesn't believe ANYBODY has to prove anything? The reason that claim has no credibility is because he's selectively biased. AP's tell the truth/everyone else lies.

--mickey, the tax return thing would have had critics crying foul. They'd have said I somehow manipulated those, and all for what? To have my and my wife's personal finances out? redietz immediately would have shouted "Alan is a shill and a stooge for Rob!" and the rest of you would call me some sort of liar. It was not worth it.

--kew (who else) is hoping and praying to get something....anything....that'll convince his faulty mind that I'm lying. I don't know who he emailed or how credible any information from that source is. The article from Wired has the incorrect steps (and this is from memory). What it did was, on the one hand explain that a winning hand was played for, but it then listed the steps to take in order to use an existing winning hand. Here's the correct steps, and I'll include my administrative comments as well:

1. Sit down with a $5000 bankroll. Get double up enabled on a (we'll use my favorite) $1/$2/$5/$10/$25 multi-game machine. The larger the ratio between the lowest denomination and the highest, the better. (The BEST was the 25c thru $10 uprights at Casino Monte Lago. The two 25c thru $25 bartops at the Rio had a better spread and they had TBP+, but the machines were too old and the glitch wasn't on them). Double up was easy to ask for and receive back then. I've found it tougher since 2009, but I don't frequent casinos any longer.

2. Select the game that has the most high-end possible winners. SDBP was always my choice if they had it, then TDBP, TBP+, but much of the time it was DDBP. Remember to make sure the pay table for the game you're gonna play is the same for the lowest and highest denominations. That's more the exception than the case these days, so be sure. Back then equal pay tables were more common. Bad pay tables do NOT matter.

3. Play at the lowest denom until you hit what will be a signer at the highest denom. Although this play works for any winner and will rack up credits if it's not high enuf for a W2G (except for one odd machine I've found 3-1/2 years ago) I only used taxables because of my One-and-Done policy. Others may assume the risk of hitting multiple smaller winners would be worth it.

4. Once any winner is hit you have that annoying Double up? question come on. You just say no every time except this time. Here, you do not answer, and you instead insert a bill (or ticket) which eliminates the DU question but your winning quad or whatever remains on the screen, unpaid.

5. You then select More Games, up the denomination, select the game you hit the winner on, and hit the cashout button. Your four Aces with a kicker for $2000 is now $50,000 and the jackpot! stuff goes off.. Or, your quad 6's for $250 is now $6250. Either way, you used a fraction of your $5k bankroll to accomplish this.

Like I've said, anyone who uses an existing winner they did not hit or uses a winner to collect on more than once, in my mind is doing something very wrong. But I understand the majority of people would probably choose to do it this way. It's what got Kane caught though. Also, this is 10 years on. If you locate one of these machines and get caught for whatever reason, the casino people may not be familiar with the past, and you may have to go thru being cuffed and jailed until everything gets sorted out.

My approach to everything about this was being super careful....almost to the point of being neurotic. While you know better, you're always thinking someone may be watching you from somewhere, and that outcome may not be so pleasant. To be sure, there was a certain thrill involved with this, and the first time I came across this play was an amazing feeling.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I waited ten years to bring this up, and other than for legal safety the reason is valid and it's not due to bragging rights. I am a known person in the vp world who was not able to be entirely honest in multiple forms of media after my first four years of playing professionally using my strategy. I was constantly criticized for writing in Gaming Today for years about hitting hi limit jackpots week after week. I was called a liar and every name in the envy book. People wondered where I got the $640,000 cash I put up as escrow to take on Fezzik and the LVA crowd.

I've chosen to attach an explanation to all that ten years + later. I've been labeled a con man, a losing player, and whatever else AP's could think of as their way of pretending I couldn't be for real. Well, imagine how satisfying it all was back then as I was the one playing the with best advantage ever in video poker.

Oh, that 5th card flip over stuff? Simple diversion and entertainment as I piled up the profits.

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Assuming everything that you are saying is true, let me then ask you this: Why run around for years advocating and defending what essentially amounts to a video poker betting system other than for bragging rights? That's totally irresponsible and sets people up to believe in a system that has a mathematical expectation of losing. How many people could have lost how much money thinking they could win just by adopting a system that varies bets and gradually progresses upward in denomination?

They were calling what you were saying bunk because, without the double-up glitch, it is bunk. I just don't understand why talk about it at all if you either could not or would not come out with what the play actually is. There's no need whatsoever for diversion if you just don't say anything at all about it.