The old Western Casino on Fremont

Looks like Red is in the same boat as Rob. He would have no idea where to find information like this. But most real players and almost all real AP players do know.

It isn't a secret. I am just pointing out the kind of people like Rob and Red that talk about things they have no idea about.

AND I actually gave the answer yesterday in an unrelated post. So here it is for you geniuses. Wongs BJ21 has a monthly report of conditions and rules that can be purchased as a one time purchase or on a subscription. They have paid reporters that report the first of each month. And for Las Vegas the report is pretty accurate with one caveat. A local reporter sometimes holds back or doesn't share really good conditions of a game on his route, saving it for himself. The reporters all deny this though. :rolleyes: But overall for Las Vegas it is pretty accurate. Other states and areas, not always as accurate. Depends on if they even have a reporter for that particular area. If not information can be months or even several years old.

Wizard also has a free blackjack survey reporting the same conditions at casinos throughout Vegas. That is also pretty good. Not sure just how often it is updated or who does it, but it is pretty accurate.

But most real players only use these as a guide anyway, so you purchase the report once or twice a year to see if there any changes somewhere you might not know about and then go check for yourself. Because every real player puts more stock in their own scouting than these different reports.

One other thing to remember about these reports as well as your own scouting is that they are only a "snapshot" of conditions at that particular moment in time. It isn't unusual for condition and rules (more conditions like penetration that actual rules) to change from one day to the next, depending on a variety of things. For example, if a casino has encountered a team or even single higher end counter, that they took countermeasures against, they sometime tighten up for a short period.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

That one exception would be the wongers, who jump in as soon as the count turns good. They are blackjacks version of vultures. They are essentially stealing EV and ultimately money from those of us that have worked the count. I will glare at them, but it has no effect. Better than doing what I would really like to do to them.

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Do you mean like when you count 2 tables, and jump from the one that you're playing over to the other one that you're counting...when the count next door turns good?

Oh what a tangled web you weave when you practice to deceive.

But you're well beyond practicing, you are proficient at it...so full of shit it's mind boggling.

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Originally Posted by monet

You can't do it today because the options do not exist anymore.
These days it costs you 400 per week.
In those days and days prior it was around 300 to 400 PER MONTH.

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After I sold my first condo here in Vegas 11-12 years ago, (was sort of forced out when they changed the rules), I knew I wanted to buy a single family home and out in Summerlin away from the strip. But I didn't want to be forced into a quick purchase. I wanted to take my time and look. So I was considering a temporary move into one of those weekly place like Seigle suites/Budget suites. I knew the bad reputation with bugs and crime and lousy management running things, but didn't want to sign a lease at a more regular apartment while I looked for a purchase. I ended up renting a regular apartment for 6 months.

But I was pricing those weekly joints. They were all between $149 and $179 a week, depending on location.

Recently I have seen billboards and advertisements where they are $400ish. A check on their website showed prices from $379, to $$459.

That is a 200% increase in a little more than 10 years. :D It is also $1800 a month (+tax). People can rent a decent apartment in a decent area for that money. So why the fuck do people live in these places? And considering the kind of people that do....how can they afford to?

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

That one exception would be the wongers, who jump in as soon as the count turns good. They are blackjacks version of vultures. They are essentially stealing EV and ultimately money from those of us that have worked the count. I will glare at them, but it has no effect. Better than doing what I would really like to do to them.

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Do you mean like when you count 2 tables, and jump from the one that you're playing over to the other one that you're counting...when the count next door turns good?

Oh what a tangled web you weave when you practice to deceive.

But you're well beyond practicing, you are proficient at it...so full of shit it's mind boggling.

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No tangled web, douchbag. That is exactly what tracking two tables and jumping to the better is....a form of wonging. :D If there was a counter at any of those tables I jumped to, and there probably was somewhere along the way, they probably were as unhappy with me as I am when people "wong" my games.

What is your point?

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Originally Posted by redietz

So when a blackjack player is asked a rules question, and he was allegedly playing today and yesterday and last week, and that player goes out of his way to respond with NO actual details or specifics, you gotta ask why. It is either really strange, quite a consistent coincidence, or something else.

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Quite a consistent coincidence indeed.

Just like when tewlj fabricated his story about playing the gaffed BJ machine.

He travelled all over the country "APing" the game, but he wasn't able to comment knowledgeably about the rules.

LOL...what a real pro he is.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by redietz

So when a blackjack player is asked a rules question, and he was allegedly playing today and yesterday and last week, and that player goes out of his way to respond with NO actual details or specifics, you gotta ask why. It is either really strange, quite a consistent coincidence, or something else.

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Quite a consistent coincidence indeed.

Just like when tewlj fabricated his story about playing the gaffed BJ machine.

He travelled all over the country "APing" the game, but he wasn't able to comment knowledgeably about the rules.

LOL...what a real pro he is.

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Douch bag belly. WTF? You are a troll, but I never thought you a complete idiot before.

The play my brother and I did across the country last spring was a machine....just as you noted. Rules for a machine aren't going to be in a report or list like I just mentioned for table games. WHT is the matter with you man?

Additionally, I wasn't sure about the rule after I had played the game for about 10 minutes just to confirm you could take a second action after doubling down. the specific rule wasn't what I was looking to confirm in those few minutes. I was looking to confirm you could hit (or take action) after doublung down. That is where the huge advantage came from. Those other rules were just icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

What is your point?

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My point is that you insist/insisted that you engage in the same behavior that you claim to have a problem with.

Does that make sense...felcher?

The problem for you is that you got entangled in your own web of lies. You must have forgotten that you claimed to be a wonger, stealing EV and money from those who worked the count, when you derided others for doing the same thing.

That begs the question...what would you really like to do to yourself?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Rules for a machine aren't going to be in a report or list like I just mentioned for table games. WHT is the matter with you man?

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I'm not talking about a report.

I'm talking about the thread where you did not know about the most advantageous option(rule) available to the player...after you played the machine.

You had not even conceived that the option was available, or how valuable it was, until other members here posted about it.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

The problem for you is that you got entangled in your own web of lies. You must have forgotten that you claimed to be a wonger, stealing EV and money from those who worked the count, when you derided others for doing the same thing.

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No I didn't. NOT at all. Of course jumping to a new table with a better count is a form of "wonging".

What the fuck are you talking about.

People join games that I am playing all the time. EVERY time I play. That is fine. 99.9% (probably more) are not wongers. they are just players joining a game rather than wait 10-15 mnutes to the shuffle. Nothing wrong with that. Even if the count is good and them joining cost me EV, I have no issues with that. Some of them even ask if it is ok that they join and I will say yes it is fine with me, even if it is a decent count (+EV). A few times if the count is really high and there is just a couple rounds left, I might say "could you wait 2 hands til the shuffle because I am on a good run", but that is rare. Most of the time, even though the count is good and they are eating EV I welcome them in.

Now when a wonger wongs in, having stood behind the game tracking the table, he is well aware I am there and counting because he has stood behind the table and witnessed me raise my bets. So he KNOWS he is vulturing in on my count and EV.

Now when I track a second table, and jump to a better count, I don't know that there is someone counting that I am moving in on There is a limit to what I can do tracking from another table. I can't make note of what every player is betting and who might be raising their wager with the count.

So yes, I might be vulturing in on someone else count or EV in the same manner, but I am not aware of it. These douchbags have stood behind and are absolutely aware that I am counting and these are moving in on my EV.

But again, it isn't really a big issue. Hasn't happened too often.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Rules for a machine aren't going to be in a report or list like I just mentioned for table games. WHT is the matter with you man?

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I'm not talking about a report.

I'm talking about the thread where you did not know about the most advantageous option(rule) available to the player...after you played the machine.

You had not even conceived that the option was available, or how valuable it was, until other members here posted about it.

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You are just coach bellying looking for your gottcha moment when there is none here, dude.

I was in the process of checking out the game and what it was all worth. Even after playing a few minutes I was not sure what it was worth. I knew it was +EV, but not how much. That is why I immediately contacted several people, including Shackleford that would know. I mean if it turned out it was +EV but only worth $40 bucks and hour, still would have hit up the 2 machines here in Vegas, but wouldn't have chased it all over the country for 10 weeks.

I'll tell you something else that I haven't shared before. I have mentioned that Wizard didn't give me the answer I requested of him. He was willing to provide the answer if I cut him in and told him the machine and locations. I wouldn't do that because it wasn't my play....it was my brothers. I had no hard feelings that he didn't give me the information and don't think he did that I didn't cut him in. I got the information I needed from other sources.

So here is the part I haven't mentioned before. Last fall, months after we had completed the play, Mike contacted me and asked how we had made out on the play. And I told him. By that time, he had surely heard from other people about the play, and just wanted to know how we made out. If the play wasn't real or hadn't been what I shared, he would not have benn inquiring how we made out.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You are just coach bellying looking for your gottcha moment when there is none here

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by tableplay

the ability to get at least 4 times your money in (via double downing a 2nd time) when you have a 10 or 11 versus a dealer upcard of 4,5, or 6 creates a significant edge for the player. Prior to my asking KewlJ why he does not mention taking the action to re-double

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I'm following you completely.

If doubling-down after 2 cards is to the player's advantage, and taking a 4th card after a double-down is a bigger advantage, then the ability to re-double on your 3-card hand must be the biggest advantage in this entire play.

Yet he never mentioned that he or his brother (with a combined total of 628 hours played) ever re-doubled.

So, he's obviously full of shit about the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I might be vulturing in on someone else count or EV in the same manner, but I am not aware of it. These douchbags have stood behind and are absolutely aware that I am counting.

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So your story has morphed into back-counters not only tracking the cards played, but also tracking your betting pattern, and I suppose everyone else's betting patterns as well?

And since you are only tracking the cards played at table #2, and not tracking the players' bets, it's cool for you to wong in and steal the EV? Even though you are wonging in, and taking face cards away from the other players who have been there, that's OK because they may not be counting?

Is that how you justify your hypocrisy?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

players jumping in and out of the game isn't something that bothers me, other than it slows the game down, with one exception.

That one exception would be the wongers, who jump in as soon as the count turns good. They are blackjacks version of vultures. They are essentially stealing EV and ultimately money from those of us that have worked the count. I will glare at them, but it has no effect. Better than doing what I would really like to do to them.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Last fall, months after we had completed the play, Mike contacted me and asked how we had made out on the play. And I told him.

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Why didn't you take that opportunity to provide the info he has about MDawg, in exchange for the info that he was asking you to provide?

You make it seem like things are pretty chummy between you and Shack, despite all the accusations that you've made about him.

This latest story sounds like it belongs on MDawg's list of your 40+ lies.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I was in the process of checking out the game and what it was all worth. Even after playing a few minutes I was not sure what it was worth. I knew it was +EV, but not how much. That is why I immediately contacted several people, including Shackleford that would know.

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You played the machine for 10 minutes, and did not know if you could double on soft hands, or exactly which 2-card hands that you could double on?

You didn't need to play the game at all to get that basic info.

Originally you wrote that you could double on any 2-cards, then retracted that...even though you did not go back and play a second session to be sure.

You're a pro, and yet didn't think to check the rules, but asked others to calculate the EV without knowing the basic rules? (never mind the huge advantage associated with re-doubling)

Your story was nonsense in May, and now you're adding even more bullshit on top of the original bullshit.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Last fall, months after we had completed the play, Mike contacted me and asked how we had made out on the play. And I told him.

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Why didn't you take that opportunity to provide the info he has about MDawg, in exchange for the info that he was asking you to provide?

You make it seem like things are pretty chummy between you and Shack, despite all the accusations that you've made about him.

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No I am not "chummy" with Wizard. But I don't think we are on bad terms either (outside of the forum). If I have reason to communicate with him, I contact him via Pm and he responds. It has been that way for years. He can separate out forum shit from real life.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I might be vulturing in on someone else count or EV in the same manner, but I am not aware of it. These douchbags have stood behind and are absolutely aware that I am counting.

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So your story has morphed into back-counters not only tracking the cards played, but also tracking your betting pattern, and I suppose everyone else's betting patterns as well?

And since you are only tracking the cards played at table #2, and not tracking the players' bets, it's cool for you to wong in and steal the EV? Even though you are wonging in, and taking face cards away from the other players who have been there, that's OK because they may not be counting?

Is that how you justify your hypocrisy?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

players jumping in and out of the game isn't something that bothers me, other than it slows the game down, with one exception.

That one exception would be the wongers, who jump in as soon as the count turns good. They are blackjacks version of vultures. They are essentially stealing EV and ultimately money from those of us that have worked the count. I will glare at them, but it has no effect. Better than doing what I would really like to do to them.

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You are just embarrassing yourself with the rest of this shit. You clearly have no idea how much about card counting works. I will just say this....yes card counters recognize one another pretty quickly. bet spread is part of it, but not the only thing. If I suspect someone may be a card counter even before seeing his spread 95% of time I am correct.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You clearly have no idea how much about card counting works.

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It's OK for you to wong in on a table, and take face cards away from the seated players, as long as you are not aware that they are counting...is that how card counting works?

So then why bother paying attention to whether they are counting or not?

Just assume that they are not.

Belly, how about this: get back to me when you have something intelligent to say.

That way I will never have to hear from you again.

Coach Belly has to be lacking in any and all senses of humor. Just an angry old man being angry 24/7. Incredible.

Anyone want to spitball one redeeming quality of his?

Love or hate Kewl - at least he somehow keeps this forum going. He has some good BJ counting info if you are wanting to go down that path.

Coach Belly? Like I literally can not think of one redeeming trait.

He doesn't even try to be funny. I know Kewl's new thing is to say I "try too hard" to be funny but I don't think Coach Belly has an ounce of humor inside him. Just nothing but a void of miserableness. What an existence that must be. And apparently he's been on the forums for 20ish years at least.

Coach, adopt a pet or something. You gotta have something in your life... for real

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

apparently he's been on the forums for 20ish years at least.

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My join date is displayed, how old do you think I am?

But I'm not following you...I'm replying to what others have written by questioning their own words and the story they have told.

It's as if you think questioning things displays anger.

Which questions are the angry ones, why do you consider the intent angry, and why do they make you uncomfortable?

You are here constantly feuding with and insulting everyone...is that supposed to be funny?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

No I am not "chummy" with Wizard. But I don't think we are on bad terms either (outside of the forum). If I have reason to communicate with him, I contact him via Pm and he responds. It has been that way for years. He can separate out forum shit from real life.

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So you don't really care if he reveals more than he's told about the MDawg event?

Because you been harping on that, and insulted him about it, for a long time.