https://patch.com/illinois/joliet/2-...rosecuted-suit
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Definitely a malicious prosecution. And they were referred to as cheats in newspaper articles without being convicted of anything. Harrah's not only got their asses kicked on the game but they are going to get stung for a big settlement. I can deduce a few things from the article.
The plaintiffs were most likely avoiding W2-G jackpots to not attract attention from the house. I'm familiar with machines that automatically cash a ticket when a certain threshold in accumulated credits is reached. The threshold on the WMS machines at Harrah's Joliet was 3K. The plaintiffs were cashing 3K in accumulated credits at a time....so no W2-G handpay's. But there is nothing illegal about playing low enough that you don't get W2-G's.
This is another example of sharp gamblers (AP's) recognizing an advantage when they see one. That's all they are guilty of and it's not a crime. A simple example using a two-spot.
How many two-spots are there when there are 80 numbers in the tank?
Total combinations = 80X79/2X1 = 3160
How many combinations include the two-spot that you played when 20 numbers are drawn?
20X19/2X1 = 190
What are the chances of hitting the two-spot?
190/3160 = 16.63158
The payback percentage depends on what the two-spot pays. Most common pays are 13 for 1, 14 for 1, 15 for 1.
13/16.63158 = 78.16%
14/16.63158 = 84.18%
15/16.63158 = 90.19%
But what if you found a video keno game where the two-spot payed 17 for 1, or 18 for 1, or 19 for 1?
17/16.63158 = 102.2%
18/16.63158 = 108.2%
19/16.63158 = 114.2%
If I were to ever find these kinds of payscales I would be on it like white on rice. All the plaintiffs did was recognize a great gambling opportunity. They played the game under the rules of the house. They violated no laws. They were put through 2 years of malicious prosecution. They should get a big settlement.
You're always quick to jump on these things like it's some sort of "persecution" against "AP gamblers" taking advantage of certain situations--which really, most any regular gambler does and has done for many years. And if these fools had any sort of real life or life experience outside of gambling, they'd have completed their journey with this exploitation without incident.
And that's the problem with the vast majority of people who like to label themselves as "AP's". They think they're smarter than everyone else, but the truth is all they focus their lives on is casinos and gambling because they're just too stupid to be involved with anything else that could and would go a long way to enhancing their unproductive lives.
Mickey might have a couple of new heroes here, but even the simplest of common sense says that YOU DO NOT DRIVE ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN CASH in your vehicle, among other obvious things! That's what true assholes do, and the years of hassles, misery, deprevation and anxiety are exactly what these morons asked for and deserved. Had they had ANY form of stable social or family life they would have been prompted from the start about the most sensible way to handle this. There's that lack of education rearing it's ugly head for these supposed know-it-alls once again.
And of course, this article was written with a bias, for others with a bias who are trained not to think. Mickey immediately gobbles that type stuff up like a bitch in heat, and when he came up for air he already has them securing some huge settlements. Intelligent people, however, are not so quick on the draw. These guys are as stupid as they come, regardless of their over-inflated egos when they're in casinos. Someone like mickey just can't see that.
And someone like Robert Harry Argentino can't remember that he is on record on this site saying he has driven countless times between Phoenix and Las Vegas with large sums of money on his person. And defended the practice saying no one knows he has the money on him. So it's okay for Argentino to do it but anyone else that does it is stupid. You can't make this shit up.
This isn't the first time this same news organizations article has labeled legal AP as cheating. They did the same thing to the 2 hole carders that got caught on Mississippi Stud at Hollywood casino there. The judge immediately threw the case out when the facts were presented.
Just another example of a couple simple posts that would prove to anyone that had any doubt Singer is an idiot, that he is just by reading them. While I doubt that there is anyone left who doesn’t see him as the fraud he is, it never hurts to allow him to show them how wrong they are.
He has become a parody of the bullshitter he always was.
I hope everyone can leave the personal insults out. This article needs discussion.
It is of course wrong for a casino to harass winners by getting police to arrest them and seize their assets. It sounds like a mob hit if you ask me with the casinos paying off the cops.
I don't see anything indicating that the players broke any laws by cashing out smaller amounts but here there is an error. All casinos maintain CTRs no matter how large or small the amounts. They are obligated to even track $3,000 transactions. There is no $10,000 threshold and I don't know how that wives tale got started.
About traveling with $100,000 or more in cash: that's just crazy. Anyone who does travel with that kind of cash is asking for trouble and trouble could be having an accident or losing it or having it burn up in a fire.
The only reason to carry so much cash is to try to hide it from the IRS. The casinos don't care if APs carry cash. In fact the only thing casinos would love you to do even more is have your money in their chips. Oh, how they love it when you have their chips and they have your cash.
Hint: there is no interest paid on chips. But there is a feds funds rate for overnight cash deposits.
Hard to believe a manufacturer and/or casino could allow a machine to hit the floor like that, giving extremely advantageous payouts - considering all of the resources they have to make sure that doesn't happen.
History of Currency Transaction Reports
When the CTR was initially implemented, the judgment of a bank teller was the only thing that would lead to a suspicious transaction of less than $10,000 being reported to law enforcement. This was primarily due to the financial industry's concern about the right to financial privacy. On October 26, 1986, with the passage of the Money Laundering Control Act, the right to financial privacy ceased being an issue. As part of the Act, Congress stated that a financial institution could not be held liable for releasing suspicious transactional information to law enforcement. As a result, the next version of the CTR had a suspicious transaction check box at the top. This was in effect until April 1996 when the Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) was introduced. The CTR form was once officially form 104, however; it is now form 112.
How Currency Transaction Reports Currently Work
When a bank processes a transaction involving more than $10,000, most bank software will automatically create a CTR electronically and fill in tax and other customer information automatically. CTRs since 1996 include an optional checkbox at the top if the bank employee believes the transaction to be suspicious or fraudulent, commonly called a SAR, or Suspicious Activity Referral.
A bank is not obligated to tell a customer about the $10,000 reporting threshold unless the customer asks. A customer may decline to continue the transaction upon being informed about the CTR, but this would require the bank employee to file a SAR. Once a customer presents or asks to withdraw more than $10,000 in currency, the decision to continue the transaction must continue without reduction to avoid the filing of a CTR. For instance, if a customer reneges on their initial request and instead requests the same transaction for $9,999, the bank employee should deny such a request and continue the transaction as originally requested by filing a CTR. This sort of attempt is known as structuring, and is punishable by federal law against both the customer and the bank employee. Habitual transactions just under the $10,000 threshold may also attract scrutiny and/or the filing of a SAR.
The most outrageous part of this whole situation is that someone (or several people) working at Harrah's Joliet is apparently tipping off corrupt police departments over multiple states to be on the lookout for winners with loads of cash in their car. Then the cops pull these people over, seize their cash, and presumably the person who tipped at Harrah's gets a kickback.
Dirrrrrrrrrrrty.
Keep in mind this wasn't just directed at APs. The article also makes reference to a situation in Iowa where a winner of a poker tournament at Harrah's Joliet was targeted by a corrupt Iowa police department and he had his money seized.
I know you are kind of stuck as a poker player with them owning WSOP, but this is another reason why no one should give CZR’s any business unless you find the rare AP play at their properties.
It’s one thing to run a casino and set the odds in your advantage and then let the customers decide if they want to play. It’s another to report customers to law enforcement because they fairly beat you.
True justice would be a record fine or even loss of their gaming license for this incident alone.
Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.
There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.
Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.
Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.
As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...
Living in Vegas and having a play thousands of miles away is meaningless. Pros travel and scout everywhere. We've been to every corner of the country and everywhere in between AP'ing casinos.
As my dad used to say, “I didn’t fall off a turnip truck yesterday.” What does this mean? I have a brain and don’t believe everything I read. There is usually more to a story this complicated than what you’ll read in a six paragraph article. I repeat. This article was written to the gullible and already converted.
You’re the one who needs to “wise up.”
Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity? There has to be some APs living in Illinois.
Look I don’t know the whole case. I didn’t spend that much time researching it. But I did spend enough time to see there is much more going on then what I read in this article. I also don’t think casinos and police are that dumb or corrupt. Are there some rougue ones out there? Sure.
It’s really not that important to me. I’d just encourage some of the more gullible people on this site to think a little more when you read something like this.
It reminds me of my brother, who is a left wing liberal who thinks our country is putting all these innocent people in prison. Btw, the press thinks the same thing. Everytime he (from the press) points out an example of someone who was freed from prison who supposedly was wrongly convicted, I look into and find the person was really freed due to some technicality or they got some witness to recant some statement, not because he is innocent.
Same reason ploppies are oblivious to seeing hole card games or ploppies that keep leaving multipliers on UX when they know damn well others are cleaning up playing them off. People are stupid. Not just that, but not all AP's have multiple games they target. Take KJ for example, he'll stick to strictly card counting and nothing more. IMHO, this is career suicide.
Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? If you think about that, it should help answer your question. They may have found the machines here in Vegas originally, but the denominations were too low, or they only had a few machines here in Vegas, or perhaps they were taken out quickly due to poor performance so they did some research and found out what other locations had the machines. The locations could have been posted up on the manufactures website even. Oftentimes they will say where they are installing their exciting new games.
Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers other than IGT.
Look you could be right. I didn’t do much research on this. I really don’t care. But common sense should tell you this case is more complicated than what you’re reading in this article. My point is God gave you a brain. Use it! Don’t beleieve everything you read, including what I say.
This is almost a copy of what I wrote in post #52 of the "Advantage Play in NJ" thread. It's SOP for the casinos. Try to establish any relationship between any of the AP's and the slot manufacturer. Sue the game maker.
Bob21 appears to be baffled that errors could have been made despite the prosecution case falling apart. This is exactly what I said in my post. Casinos will posit that finding nothing doesn't mean nothing happened. Helluva argument if you don't need facts.
Mission gets my annual award for best post regarding the telephone.
Two things phones with cameras have demonstrated convincingly for the last 10 years:
1) People don't get abducted by aliens (at least not when carrying phones).
2) Cops do a lot of bad, illegal things.
Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.
This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.
And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.
Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.
Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.
p.s. I have been directly involved in stuff where I know exactly what and how it happen and it was 100% clean, however, that didnt stop the casinos and gaming trying to go further.
Wrongo. There are two things that have been shown over the years in these cases. 1) Sometimes casinos are in the wrong and 2) sometimes APs are in the wrong. Both sides have bad apples in their camp. It’s like everything else in life. The bad apples aren’t just on one side.
As far as cops and cameras. The only footage the press is showing you is the footage where the cops are in the wrong. I get it. That makes news. And these cops should be prosecuted. What you don’t see is the 100 of hours of footage that shows the cops were in the right. That doesn’t make the news.
Btw, when there is a bad doctor who did something illegal, do you assume every doctor in the world is evil?
I’ll repeat. There are bad apples out there in every industry and profession. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
I’m not going to get into this here, because this is very involved. Please spend some time doing your own research on this.
I have spent quite a bit of my own time researching this since this is my brother’s “hot botton” issue. All these people freed on “DNA evidence” is not what you think. Again, spend some of your own time researching these cases. You’ll be surprised by what'll you find. Remember, come at it with an open mind.
When someone is convicted of murder or some other major crime, this is done by a jury of their peers. Do you really think only one piece of evidence puts them away? Again, use some common sense here. There is a group called “The Innocence Project” who are basically leftwing nuts trying to free guilty people.
I’m not saying our justice system hasn’t ever made a mistake. Of course it has. Since it’s run by people, and people aren’t perfect, of course mistakes have been made. But not near to the degree you see in the press. The press makes it seem like most people in prison are innocent.
Also, some of the people freed based on so called DNA evidence have a rap sheet a mile long. So even if they got this one wrong, they probably should be serving time in prison for one of the other crimes they’ve done. I know in our system you can’t use a person past criminal record against them.
I’m not a fan of the mainstream press. They have an agenda, and since most people are lazy, most people believe what they write. Most of their stories are slanted and don’t tell the whole story. The good news is we have the internet where we can do our own research.
there are some pro gamblers that cheat, no doubt
but it is much, much worse when a casino, particularly a large casino does skanky stuff because they are giant corporations and have a great deal of money and power
they have a larger responsibility for their actions, as they represent the corporation, the employees and the shareholders
when they do this kind of stuff, present charges that are so weak that a judge dismisses them it is reprehensible
casino corporations are not all bad. but they need to be called to account when they abuse their power
Nobody has to answer any questions about this incident.
In this country there is this little thing called the presumption of innocence.
Nobody can legally be forced to answer questions if they are suspected of a crime.
The burden of proof is on the State bringing charges
If a sitting Judge dismisses the State's case that says volumes about prosecutorial ineptitude.
No individual is required to prove his innocence.
If you want to believe that people who have not been convicted are not innocent - Go For It.
It falls into the "who cares what you think" category. Carries no weight at all.
I already explained the posibbilities "Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers."
Again, they may have found it here in Vegas first and it was only in lower denominations or it was taken out soon after, so they went in search for it (or make phone calls)in other locations. That's what many AP's do when something good comes out. They start searching other available locations. That's like common ABC AP stuff.
I 100% agree with you. I never said they were guilt. I never said they needed to prove their innocents. I just gave my opinion. That’s what forums are for. You have a right to disagree with my opinion. I have no problem with that. But I also have a right to question their story and their innocents. That’s all I’m doing based on very little information. I get that.
To me, it does seem a little supiscious that 5 people from Vegas just happened to know about a flawed game in Illinois. I get that this isn’t enough to convict anybody on. And I understand they could be totally innocent. As you’ve said, it is incumbent on the state to prove their guilt. And since the state dropped the case, the state obviously doesn’t have enough evidence to move forward.
This doesn’t prove they are guilty or innocent. In the end, they and God only know what really happened.
Sorry axel, but that explanation doesn't even fall under the "It's a Stretch" column.
You make it appear like the game manufacturers are a collection of inept people, and casinos are run by their illegitimate children....while at the same time there's this secret society of ultra intelligent AP's who've been beamed in from Planet X, who somehow "know what to look for" in new machines before they're put onto casino floors, and who can do hi-denomination machine-checks throughout the country AND PLAY THEM TO DEATH before an email goes out to all casinos offering those exploitable machines. Yup----these super duper AP's are not only clairvoyant--they're faster than the speed of light!
No, you are making it sound like I'm making sound like that.
I can only assume making a new game is very complicated. For the most part they get it right, however, mistakes are made an things slip though the cracks, It seems to be often enough to make it worthwhile searching for vulnerabilities, especially if you know what you are looking for. The money that can be made is significant so the motivation is there.
If a company like IGT can make mistakes, just imagine what kind of mistakes a new or lessor company might make.
I'm not sure why you think the there has to be some super alien intelligence needed to figure this stuff out. Why do You find it hard to believe the guys looking for this stuff are not at least as smart as the people making them? Some of them may have backgrounds in this type of stuff. Also, people learn from past experiences knowing what kinds of things to look for. For example, there have been many cases over the years where bill acceptors have similar problems that tend to be highly exploitable. I myself have found more than one glitch without even searching or knowing about it prior. And I have no software programming, machine tech or machine mechanic experience.
There are lots of glitches you never hear about, I can assure you that, even when there is big money involved.
Apparently you don't keep up on just how inept the casinos actually are. If they were on the ball then we wouldn't be constantly reading about the big numbers casinos get hit for.
For all those who believe this story “hook line and sinker” explain to me this....how did they find this flawed game living in Vegas?
Someone said by phone, which I’m assuming means someone called them up to tell them about it. Okay, I get that. But who is that person? Why would he/she call someone in Vegas to exploit a game they found in Illinois?
Here’s what I think happened based on some common sense. Someone at the game manufacturer or casino, programmed a flaw into the game and then called someone they knew to exploit it. It’s called “an inside job”. It happens all the time. This sounds more plausible than 5 Vegas gamblers just happening to find a flawed game in Illinois. I get the state doesn’t have enough evidence to prove this is what happened, but I expect this is what they think happened.
Rob has brought this up before, but who drives across multiple states with $400,000 in their car? While this isn’t illegal, this sure sounds like something a guilty (or stupid) person would do. There’s a reason the casinos alerted the police to be on the lookout for that car.
The article was preaching to the choir, and the choir bought this story so fast they didn’t have time to put on their thinking caps when they read it. I get it. This article supported the biases you have against casinos and police.
Here's a real world example of a flawed payscale....if that's what you want to call it. This game was found in the bartops at the Wendover Nugget several years ago. When Nugget management finally snapped to it no one was charged with anything. What could they charge them with? They were just playing the game by the house rules. Management is responsible for their games being mathematically sound, not the players.
In the screenshot below you can see the game is 8/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe. Can you spot the flaw?
So here’s the question, why didn’t other people spot it? Mickey said if he’d seen these pay tables, he’d have known right away they were good. It sounds like even an average Joe Blow video poker player should have known these pay tables were incredible.
It’d be like an average gambler spotting a bj table with a 5 to 2 payout on bj. You don’t have to be an advantage player to know this is good. Ploppies would be all over this table. Why weren’t ploppy video players all over these machines?
Something in this story isn’t adding up. Only 5 people identified this incredible opportunity? Maybe, but it doesn’t sound plausible.
I've been following this discussion about the discovery of the Ocean Magic reset. Yes, I think it's amazing that a few people found the reset. But that's the point: ONLY a few people discovered the reset.
Video poker is different. When there is something funny about a VP paytable you'd expect LOTS of players to see it.
But with a slot machine using symbols I'd only expect a few players to spot it. And that's what happened -- only a few players spotted it. So, what's the problem? Why the controversy?
When I blew the whistle on Suncoast to the NGC about their error announcing the close of entries I was the only one in a casino with maybe 2,000 people in it who blew the whistle.
I'm sure that for every player who spotted the reset of the OM machines there were several thousand who didn't.
The video poker game in the pic below is a 114% play. I found it ten years ago on a couple of dozen machines. The key to it being a big advantage is The Natural Aces Full meter. It resets to $100 as you can see in the pic. I had seen this game, Jackpot Aces, many times before but the Aces Full meter was resetting to $10 and I figured it to be mid nineties percentagewise. So when I see one resetting at $100 I knew it could be an advantage. The game can't be fully analyzed by any software on the market but the software can partially analyze it. It was a big help. I had to calculate the chances of a Natural Aces Full myself.
You can also see that this game is just a 50 cent bet. But at 1000 HPH it's a $70 an hour play. That's $70 an hour on just a $500 an hour wager. Juxtapose that to playing $2 Double Bonus with .6% cashback. It's also a $70 an hour play. But you are making a 10K per hour wager. Your money is taking huge fluctuations, in the thousands of dollars an hour. What kind of money fluctuation do you think I'm taking on this Jackpots Aces game? Hardly any. Low risk/high reward has always been my niche in gambling.
Now, the flaw in the game is obviously a technician's error. So what? It's not my probem. I'm just playing the game by the rules of the house. What could they charge me with? Playing video poker on Sunday? It's ten years later and I still have this game on two machines.
Okay, I get that. The same is true with bj ploppies. The majority don’t have a clue, but that is not true of all of them. 100s or probably 1000s of people go through that casino daily. You’re telling me not one of them spotted this opportunity.
Here’s what I think might have happened. The other gamblers never spotted this opportunity since these machines were occupied by this group 24/7. That’s why there were 5 people so they could work these machines in shifts and not let anybody else on them.
So here’s the question: Did they just get lucky and spot these machines before anybody else did, or did they get an “inside tip”. While either one could happen, the more plausible explanation is they got an “inside tip”.
I get that the state and casino can’t prove they cheated. But can you at least acknowledge this could have happened?
If you look at what they did, they acted guilty. They acted the way a bank robber acts after they’ve stole money from a bank, driving the get-away car with loads of money across many states. This isn’t how innocent people behave.
I get how someone acts doesn’t prove their guilt or innocence. But you can use some common sense here and come up with your own conclusions.
To each his own. You’re entitled to your opinion. And I’m just giving you mine for what it’s worth.
It was just quarters but still a $140 an hour play. With a play like this you are just not going to have any losing days. That is, if you put in enough hours per day. It's a 111.4% play. Discount the royal and straight flush off the payscale and it's 109%. About 19% of the payback is in the quads and they are on just a 423 game cycle. So what you are going to do is accumulate credits all day just like that keno play in Illinois.
Here's another example. I found this game 7 years ago. What made me analyze it was the 6 out of 8 with the Power Hit meter was resetting to $500. On all the other machines it was resetting to $200. So that was the clue for me to analyze this game. It came up 112%. And if they made the mistake on this machine then they may have made it on others. So I scouted the whole state of Montana and found it on a dozen machines. It's 7 years later and I still have the game on 3 machines.
Mickey, thanks for posting all these slot advantage opportunities you found. It’s my understanding the casinos have never charged you with doing anything illegal for finding and exploiting these opportunities. If I’m wrong, correct me.
This somewhat proves my point. Casinos don’t just arrest someone for finding slots that give them an advantage. They don’t arrest someone for winning money. There is nothing illegal in doing this.
These five people from Vegas were arrested for spending 18 days on keno machines in Illinois and making what sounds like hundreds of thousands of dollars. I expect the casino has some evidence they did something illegal but not enough to move forward with prosecution..
As someone else said, the burden of proof is very high on the prosecutors to win a case like this. It is not very high in the court of common sense. Common sense tells me something fishy was going on here, but this group did a good job covering their tracks.
you keep wrongly saying that the prosecution decided not to move forward. for the second time now - the Judge threw the case out.
from the article:
"Now-retired Will County Circuit Judge Daniel Rozak "dismissed all charges upon directed verdict motion of the plaintiffs at the close of the state's case without need of any of the plaintiffs' testimony or evidence,"
"Similar criminal charges were brought in the state of Mississippi - their respective criminal charges were also later thrown out in Mississippi."
you have an abiding belief in the honorability of casinos. this is total bullshit.
they don't behave skankily a very lot of the time. but they behave skankily a fair amount of the time.
This blog is dated, this guy has retired, but this guy who called himself The Bear had a blog about casinos behaving skankily
Read for yourself. Although I'm going to bet you're going to say "it doesn't meet your journalistic standards."
you're making comments about this stuff as if you know a lot about it. but you know very little.
casinos have backroomed and gotten physical with dozens of card counters totally unnecessarily; who were doing nothing illegal or immoral for that matter
everybody with half of a brain knows this
you keep saying you "suspect" these guys - good for you
I "suspect" you work or worked for a casino or are or were a shareholder
that is why I "suspect" that you are defending them
and don't bother telling me I'm wrong. I won't believe you. Just like you don't believe these guys.
Just like you, I'm sharing my opinion on a forum.
https://www.thebeargrowls.com/
When they leave them on multi-streak VP, it doesn't get any sweeter, since (as you know), not only does the multiplier apply to all three hands but the previous player might have left up to three multipliers each of which applies to all three hands for the next three deal-draws and you only need to bet 5 coins to use it, like its successor UX. The only problem is the game is rare . . .
Okay, where do I start. First off, I’ve never said I know a lot about this case. I’m just using some common sense. I did spend a little time researching it, basically reading some articles about it back in 2014, and saw that it was a little more complicated than the article in this thread stated.
Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.
Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.
Here is where I’m going to need you to put on your common sense thinking cap. Do you really think the prosecution’s case was as simple as these 5 people from Vegas won a lot of money so they must’ve cheated? I haven’t read the case briefing, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot more complicated than that.
Look, it’s my nature to be skeptical. It’s how I’m wired. It’s hard for me to believe five people from Vegas just happen to come across a game in Illinois where they could win close to $1 million in about two weeks. I get most here believed this is what happened, and you’re entitled to your beliefs.
I think there’s a little more to it, that’s all. And from what I can gather, I expect they are guilty, but they got off. It happens all the time.
I appreciate the thoughtful debate on this topic and not resorting to name-calling. It’s usually on this site or any other. Thank you!
Yep, judges in the US of A are anti-business and pro-defendant. That explains why the US of A population has an income disparity rivaling ancient Egypt and why the percent of people incarcerated leads the world, with the possible exception of North Korea, whose numbers are tough to figure out. Common sense leads me to exactly those conclusions. Yessirreee, Bob. Well argued.
Note: St. Kitts and the Seychelles are catching up to the US of A. Their judges must have gotten a dose of liberalism.
I've gotta figure Bob21 is just playing at brain dead apologist with a tongue in his cheek, but who knows?
I over over spoke out of frustration. I don’t think everybody on here is a liberal. I can tell some of you are not.. Sorry about that. That’s one of the worse insults you can call someone. I’d rather be called anything other than a liberal. Lol
Half Smoke, I do not know where to start, so let me begin by saying that you have made one excellent and truthful post. Pertaining to the Blog that you put up there and the author LV Bear has been around in the gaming circles for a long time and let me say that he is simply one of the most highly respected members that you could possibly find in the entire gaming community. Anyone who believes and said otherwise would be challenged ruthlessly by literally dozens of AP's.
Now pertaining to Bob21 defending casino rights on this site is no surprise to anyone who belongs to BJTF. Only there he is dbs6582 and he never, and I mean never passes up a chance not only to compliment casino managements , but also always defends them as hard as he can. Many people already believe that he at some point in his life worked in the casino business. Please don't deny that you always defend casinos Bob as you know it is true.
Again, that lack of education leading to a limited comprehension of life experiences, has produced yet ANOTHER amateurish response.
Here's a hint mickey, and look it up: the drive from LV to Phx. is 300 miles. The most cash I've ever carried was just under a hundred k, once. And if I got stopped, there would be no search because I'm a long retired Fed. and I own a 49-state US CCW.
Now compare that to a couple of uneducated doofuses with genius-complexes who for some reason thought they could go thousands of miles without getting stopped and searched--even if no one had a hard-on for them. Completely 100% stupid.
Wise up....and learn a better method of picking your idols.
Again that low IQ of yours is shining through. You are especially bad at math....which explains why you never put any math up on your video poker play. Let's see:
300 miles each way.
One roundtrip a week for ten years.
By golly, I do believe that adds up to 300,000 miles
And if your video poker career is to be believed you had to be carrying 5 figures every time. Cops have taken money in just 4 figures.
PS: Could you show the quote where I said or implied that those guys are my idols? No you can't. Just more Argentino made up bullshit. That is the only thing you are definitely good at. Get a life.
You have no clue where they found this situation first. As I said before, they could have found it closer to their residence and it was taken out so they called the manufactures to find out where else the games were installed.
Why would someone call others from a different state and not just do it themselves? Many AP's have deals where they share any and all information with their team. They split up the scouting responsibilities. They may even hire a guy to do most of the scouting.
I don't think they locked up the machines 24/7. There was probably a bank of machines and 5 guys wouldn't even be able to lock up all the machines 24/7.
Why didnt every Joe blow and other AP's find this situation? I all ready bought this up. I will bring it up again. Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? I will help you answer that. Because its not blatantly staring you in the face like a messed up VP payable. Not just anyone playing the machine would benefit from the glitch. You had to do multiple things for it to work and reap the rewards.
Its been a long time now and I cant remember exactly how the keno glitch worked but IIRC it was a multi step processes. Imagine if you could play .25 a spin on keno and after you hit a 5 spot you could go into the game menu and then pull up the same game on a higher denomination and then get paid 20 times that amount.
They were probably traveling with the 400k to meet with their partners and split up the money. They probably traveled with large amounts of cash many times prior to this without a problem.
Of what they were charged for, manipulating a video keno machine. Read the article. The case was thrown out by a retired judge, who was probably a leftwing liberal nut. Most judges are.
Point being just because a case has been thrown out by some judge, it doesn’t mean the case doesn’t have merit, and these people aren’t guilty of what they are charged with.
This happens all the time. Judges throw out cases for a variety of different reasons. I didn’t look into why this judge threw out this case, but knowing judges, it was probably becsue of some technicality like the prosecutors got their evidence the wrong way.
I just used some common sense. I know the prosecutors didn’t bring charges against these 5 people just because they won some money. I expect they had some evidence they were cheating.
The majority here didn’t agree with me. That’s there right. What I’ve noticed is APs and gamblers are fairly gullible and beleieve anything they read. I don’t. I use some common sense.
This case doesn’t matter to me. Please believe what you want to.
Good job Half Smoke. You got me..you spotted a spelling mistake. I type these posts on my phone and sometimes don't check them till I hit post. Yeah, sometimes I see there are some spelling and sentence errors but since I’m not in school turning this in as a paper for a grade, I don’t go back and correct it. Btw, I’ve noticed other people do the same thing. Btw, are you an elementary school teacher?
Please reread my posts in this thread. I encouraged you to NOT believe (I made sure I spelled believe right this time since I know this is very important to you) everything I say. The key is to use some common sense. It doesn’t matter who is writing or saying something (me, the press or your best friend), don’t just believe it because it lines up with your world view.
Btw, I could tell I won this argument with you because you pointed out a meaningless thing in my post. You never attacked my main points. How long did it take you to find such a meaningless missspelled work? For the record, I’m proud of you for doing this. I’m sure it made you feel very important.
Bob21 wrote: "Here’s what I think happened based on some common sense. Someone at the game manufacturer or casino, programmed a flaw into the game and then called someone they knew to exploit it. It’s called “an inside job”. It happens all the time. This sounds more plausible than 5 Vegas gamblers just happening to find a flawed game in Illinois. I get the state doesn’t have enough evidence to prove this is what happened, but I expect this is what they think happened."
Yeah it's possible it was an inside job but it's also possible it was just an innocent mistake made by the game company that a regular player spotted.
I think if there was a criminal conspiracy it would me more likely that smaller dollar amounts would be used to fly under the radar. Even casino crooks realize that high denomination play gets noticed and if you're doing something crooked why risk attracting attention?
I'm going with the machine maker goofed with its program. A regular player spotted it, passed the info along and a small group attacked the machines.
your main point is you "suspect" people are guilty who had their case thrown out of court. I got it. you're a very suspicious person. what a great main point. what a wonderful world view.
I'm sometimes suspicious too. and I "suspect" you, as I said before - of being a casino employee.
Yea. evil librul's let them go! Your Spidy sense, oops, "common sense", tells you so.
Turns out the judge just retired and there's an article about him:
https://www.theherald-news.com/2017/...-work/ahkx3d0/
Here's an excerpt:
And guess what? He's a Republican!Quote:
It appeared the defendant was used to challenging authority.
Before being taken back to the county jail, he mentioned several issues with the charges brought against him, then started asking different court personnel for their names – his manner becoming slightly belligerent.
“I’m Judge Daniel Rozak,” the man at the bench said in a deep and dry tone. “I’m surprised you haven’t heard of me.”
While attorneys chuckled as the belligerence evaporated, the jail inmates who were sitting behind the newly indicted – some who faced life sentences – burst into raucous laughter.
The transcript could be used as evidence that Rozak – who retires this week after a 40-year legal career and 21 years on the bench – is aware of his reputation as the harshest judge in Will County.
“I think I’ve probably been subbed out more than the average judge,” Rozak said. “There are, I think, times attorneys have wanted to keep a case with me, but will say ‘My client heard all these stories in the county jail...’ ”
So it seems that the only thing you contributed to this thread that's correct is when you said "Okay, I got it wrong".
My guess is that they thought what they were doing was Illegal since they didn't have all the facts. They may have thought it was an inside Job at first. They tried to get Nestor and his partner for illegal activity as well. They even tried making up some BS hacking charges.
I'm not sure if the Grand opening Rampart Video BJ story ever hit the news(had it you would have thought it was an inside job as well). The casino miss programmed their card readers on a bank of machines and all the good machines got locked up. The casino got hit for a significant amount via the cash back from the players club.
The casino and Gaming detained two of people who played the 2 best machines and made the most and put them though the ringer. Gaming went all rouge making a bunch of accusations of an inside job, they thought the MIT team/ CalCorp etc etc was involved(not one of them guys were there). They called and threatened AP's that played on that bank "Someone is going to jail" They couldn't figure out why the machines were miss programmed or how the AP's found out about it. They thought for sure it had to be an inside JOB. I KNOW FOR A FACT IT WASN'T. It was very simple and obvious what happen once you thought about it for a few minutes. The casino had accidentally reversed the card card readers. The $5 denominations thought it was a $100 denomination and so on.
Since it was a grand opening many AP's attended in hopes of finding a situation just like this.
AP's always check the games and pay tables. Since this game payed 3:2 on BJ and they had cash back though players club it could be worth playing anyways. Then of course, everyone noticed the points were racking up faster than they should have been, then it was game on.
The Rampart had the IGT 100% video blackjack game. I worked it there for like 1.5% cashback on a promotion. I think it was the year 2000.
Half Smoke, you still missed it. My suspicion is based on the fact the prosecutors spent a year trying to prosecute this case. Here’s where some “common sense” comes in. Please put on your thinking cap. No state prosecutor would spend a year on this case - or any case - if they didn’t have some evidence to support their case.
Do you really think the prosecutors spent all this time on this case and all they had is, “they won a bunch of money so they must have cheated”. Come on now, you’ve got to be smarter than that. You know how to spell believe after all.
Sometimes Gaming is just ignorant of what's going on and so they suspect cheating. I have a friend, a one time writer for Video Poker Times, that was in the unenviable position of having to explain how he hit 7 royals in one day at the Carson Valley Inn in Minden. Of course, the game he was playing was Draw Till U Win where the royal odds are only 9700. Casino management and Gaming were totally ignorant about a game that had royal odds that low. It took quite a lot of explaining but they finally let him go.
Why didn’t other people find this? Well for one, I’d venture to guess very few gamblers really know the difference in paytables and almost none are able to calculate the payback. They don’t think in terms of house edge, expected loss, or anything like that. They *might* know VP is better than slots, but they don’t know that slots/keno are 10-20x worse than VP. If they even understand there’s a difference, they just know VP is better, but have no idea how to quantify that.
There are many different paytables on VP and keno. 9/6 is good for some games, bad for others, and awesome for others (JoB, DB, BP respectively).
Considering Alan is probably among the top 10% in terms of gambling intelligence among ploppies, do you really think they would be able to spot a good paytable? Do you think they can even comprehend the idea that a machine is messed up and is giving the player an advantage? No, absolutely not.
How did the APs who played it find it? I have no idea. Sometimes it’s just dumb luck — you sit down to play off your FP or whatever and you notice the guy next to you is playing keno and the paytable looks irregular — so you remember the paytable and do the math when you go to the bathroom or the parking garage. Other times you might have a reason to actively scout paytables.
What? This doesn’t prove anything. So what, he’s a Republican? Today there is little difference between Republicans and Democates. Both parties are liberal. George Bush senior was a Republican too and he was about as liberal as you can get. There is a reason Trump was able to get wrestle away the party’s nomination from the Republican establishment. The average Joe had lost faith about in the Republican Party.
I said I was a conservative. I didn’t say I was a Republican: There is a big difference between a conservative and a Republican.
Look, this discussion is not about Republican or Democrat, consevative or liberal. It’s about this case. I haven’t spent much time looking into this case. And by the replies I’ve been getting, I can tell nobody else has either. All they did is read one article and run with it.
The article said the judge threw out the case. The article never said why. Has anybody done any research into this and read the case briefing? I haven’t, and I doubt if anybody else has either. We have no idea why the judge threw out the case. All we have is a bunch of people speculating, me included.
When I read the article and went back and read several others, there were several things (I’ve already mentioned) that to me indicated these 5 people were probably guilty of the charges. Since the burden of proof is high (and rightfully so) on the state, the case probably wasn’t strong enough to get a conviction.
Kind of like OJ got free in our courts, but was convicted in civil court since the burden of proof wasn’t so high.
Look, you guys can believe what you want. I don’t care about this case. My main point is just because some judge threw out a case doesn’t mean the case didn’t have merit or that the defendents weren’t guilty; Just because someone is found not guilty, it doesn’t mean the person is innocent. Again, look at OJ. Our court system found him not guilty, but most people still think he was guilty....that is except the already converted.
That’s probably the situation with this case. The people who are anti-casino will see it through their rose colored glasses, where they see every casino and police force as evil and trying to stick it to the AP. This article was written to these people.
Bob21 has a point. If we use common sense and take this to its natural conclusion, based on our limited information, it's pretty clear that the judge was in on it. He probably used his contacts to get info regarding the play, then fed it to his cohorts via a judges' network. Then, when the guys made the money, he made sure they were caught in his jurisdiction, either so he could get a percentage of the seizure or to prevent a guilty plea or both. Since he's retiring, he probably needed the cash. Judges make a lot of money, but he may have had a gambling problem.
It's all there in black and white if you use common sense. The judge was the ringmaster. Just use your common sense. Why else would he throw out the case?
After all, nobody ever legally beats the casinos. Right? All of us conservatives know that.
LOL.
Great post reditez! You’re making my point for me, but I know with some sarcasm thrown in. I like your style!
What you described is actually more plausible than believing 5 gamblers from Vegas just happened on a huge advantage play in Illinois.
At any rate, all of it is speculation since no one has spent anytime looking into this case in any detail.