Bob Dancer shows his cards... so to speak.

It's surprising what a gaming author might reveal in an article, whether he intends to or not. Bob Dancer in his newest column on Las Vegas Advisor was writing about why he wouldn't want to send out "Tweets" about his big wins. In discussing valid reasons for not telling the world what can be personal information and could jeopardize his personal safety, he did reveal this:

3. My real "secret" is not the size of the jackpots, but rather why I decided to play THAT game in THAT casino on THAT day. Was a point multiplier in effect? Is there a big drawing? Was I paid to show up there? Have I negotiated a special deal that isn't available to others?

Please pay particular attention to these two sentences:

Was I paid to show up there? Have I negotiated a special deal that isn't available to others?

I think this has come up before in various discussions about Bob Dancer and the big promotions he plays for, as well as why he might frequent some casinos over others.

For the record, I am not paid to show up at any casino, and I have no special deal that isn't available to others.

That's an important point. It seems that playing in a casino for large sums of money is almost like negotiating for a car or a house. If you have a $50,000 bankroll, and have the backing to show for it, then you could ask for the moon. Someone playing at those levels who is not negotiating with their host to get everything they can, and then some, is like the person who walks into a BMW dealership paying the price on the car. With the Internet and mailing lists, it is a lot easier for the average joe to play the comp games, but I am sure there are some people who either are too timid to ask or get shot down and don't move their business elsewhere.

Actually the high rollers get something the rest of us can't... rebates on their losses. I've read how some high rollers will get back 10% or more of their losses depending on the game. A 10% rebate on losses can really cut down the house edge on games.

Those statements pretty much define how special his situation is. We don't know if he's referring to standard "showing up" free play or if he actually gets appearances fees to draw people in, but does it matter? If it's the latter, that is low.

And rebates, one suspects, are part of the equation, although he has never, to my knowledge, mentioned them before. Keeping mum is probably part of the contract.

So one cannot "do as Dancer does" without being Dancer, which is what I've said a hundred or so times. His winning is as much smoke as fire, and can't really be duplicated. I don't see any caveats mentioning this, however.

Good points redietz... and "appearance fees" are another factor to consider. His overall contacts could include a stipulation that he has to play in the casino for "x hours" per month plus rebates on losses, as part of his overall fees for putting on classes, mentioning the casinos on his radio show, interviewing casino managers, mentioning the casinos in his columns, etc. And because he is not a "bonafide journalist" working for an independent news organization none of this has to be revealed.

Let me add fuel to the fire by mentioning that if these "appearance fees" exist, and he's getting rebated, then in some ways this makes the Las Vegas Advisor culpable from a journalistic standpoint because they keep this from the public. But the LVA, I suppose, should not be confused with anything resembling journalism.

And let me mention that some LVA writers, and the publisher, have allegedly appeared in court on the side of the casinos versus card counters. So they sell card counting expertise to consumers, then accept court payments to testify for the casinos? Bad stuff.

Bad, bad stuff.

Court payments? I think you meant that they (allegedly) accepted payments from the casinos to testify. The courts do not pay for expert testimony (correct me if I'm wrong).

Right -- I would have said "court's payments" if I meant that the courts were doing the paying. They were allegedly paid for expert testimony by the casinos. By "court payments," I meant they were being paid for showing up in court.

Okay, now that we established that, let me ask you this: is it really a conflict of interest for experts at card counting to testify?
Now, if the defendants in the lawsuit or criminal action were clients of the "experts" then of course it would be a conflict of interest.
But for an author or gaming pro or newsletter publisher to testify about his knowledge of how card counters operate doesn't strike me as really being a conflict.
I may be totally off base on this, but I just don't see the conflict. After all they are the experts and in the interest of justice experts should be available to the system.
And would you also be critical of the authors if they testified on behalf of the defendants? Or are you critical only because they testified for the casinos?

So he gets paid as a shill. It's all part of his needed income so he can keep getting his high-limit fixes. I've written about what a phoney he's always been for years. As for his negotiating some special deals, that's horsecrap and he does that to sound important to the little people. He and the casinos could get clobbered for that. Imagine holding an advertised promotion with written, stated rules, but not including what one special player is getting that gives him an advantage over all the other participants.

Rebates? For vp players? Come on, it doesn't happen. I had dinner with the corporate slot director of the Peppermill/Western Village/Rainbow Henderson & Wendover casinos two nights ago and I just called him and asked if they have rebates for high-limit vp players. He laughed out loud for ten seconds. That tells me all I need to know about Dancer and his creative articles. Then I asked about paying "shills". He said he's heard of that at casinos that pay pros to teach classes at their properties, but not at any of his.

Come on Rob, you know damn well that whales get rebates and special deals. Maybe not at the Peppermill/Western Village/ Rainbow Henderson & Wendover casinos -- where I doubt many whales play. But at Wynn, Venetian, MGM, Caesars? Of course there are rebates and special deals for the whales.

I'm not knowledgeable on this subject, which is why I asked someone who is, & the Peppermill is the high roller place up here. Of course I agree "whales" get special treatment or whatever you call it. But other than Bill Bennett, who set all sorts of vp play records at Bellagio's $100 machines, I know of no other vp "whale". What I played or even what Dancer has played, could even be thought of in terms of being a vp whale.

Here is some interesting reading, that was brought up before, about special deals that high rollers get. http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/n...cc4c03286.html

Rob, I wonder what kind of perks you might have received in your heyday when you were a high roller but didn't because you wouldnt play with your card or tip or had your "attitude" towards the casinos about being part of their "system"? I wonder how much that actually COST you??

That guy was a high roller for sure, but it wasn't on vp and he played far far more money than any vp player would or could.

When you ask me a question like you did about what might I had received, it's a question that has zero meaning to me. I took whatever they bestowed upon me and was only concerned about what I was there to win, and won. I was never concerned about the points, who I could tip to be able to pretend they were a sort of "friend" or so I could artificially feel I did something good in the world, the freebies, slot card color, status, or what the current promo was. I was simply there to beat the machines and no more. I went into the career always remembering to keep it simple. Just look at the posts on vpFree. People running around tearing their hair out over comps and this and that. That's trivial stuff if you win, but apparently major stuff to losers. Why else do you think people like Jean Scott STILL posts constantly over how she thinks she's being cheated out of ten bucks a month here and a buffet coupon there.

Rob, just curious. What would you estimate your "coin in" was during that ten year run when you won nearly a million dollars? I would like to figure out what kind of offers and benefits you "left on the table" because you were "never concerned about the points."

This would be a major guess, because the ONLY thing I kept track of was profit.

I played about 425 sessions of my 5 strategies, with maybe 300 of them on SPS. I can guess that my average bet was on the $5 to $10 games on SPS, so use $7.50. Sessions ran from 1 minute to 10-12 hours, with an average of about 3-4 hours. I used my card in maybe 175 of those sessions, until I got into some trouble with two casinos. In the other 125 or so sessions my avg. bet was maybe $2 games. I always used a card playing these other four strategies. If you can figure some amount out from this then have at it.

After I got stopped by Bellagio & Harrahs I started to mingle SPS with the other strategies in alternating trips. And it's not like my comps were bad. I don't think I ever checked into less than four hotels on any weekly (and later, semi-weekly) trip in order to take advantage of what the offer included. I did make the most of what I got IN THE MAIL. I NEVER talked to casino hosts to get a thing that wasn't in the offer or that I got "cheated" out of for whatever reasons. Why should I, when I was winning regularly? That's what it was all about, and still is as far as I'm concerned. It was all about that, and keeping it simple. When I drove home it was with a mind entirely at peace, unless I lost.

So Rob, I figure you having "modest" coin in of about $1.5-million without a players card. If cash back was one-tenth of one percent that's $1500 you didnt get.

If I grossly undervalued your coin in, let's say it was $3-million that would be $3,000 you didn't get.

But now I am having trouble how you won a million dollars with only $1.5-million coin in, or even $3-million coin in? Heck, $3-million coin in over ten years is only $300-thou per year. All I can say is that you have a very high win-to-hands ratio.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

So Rob, I figure you having "modest" coin in of about $1.5-million without a players card. If cash back was one-tenth of one percent that's $1500 you didnt get.

If I grossly undervalued your coin in, let's say it was $3-million that would be $3,000 you didn't get.

But now I am having trouble how you won a million dollars with only $1.5-million coin in, or even $3-million coin in? Heck, $3-million coin in over ten years is only $300-thou per year. All I can say is that you have a very high win-to-hands ratio.

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I used my card on about 175 SPS sessions and every other strategy session, as I stated.

Let me see, if my avg. bet was $37.50/hand, and I played thru $1/$2 & $5 and halfway thru $10 to attain a $2500 minimum profit, that's 1400 credits run thru who knows how many times on avg. So if I played 1200 hands/session (400 hph for 3 hours for the bottom end of my 3-4 hour average session length) to stay on the conservative side, that's 1200 X $37.50 X 300 sessions just for SPS....or about $12,000,000 coin thru minimum. And that's just for the SPS play. So I'm not understanding your calculations.

Besides, I went into each session EXPECTING to win my goal, so in theory, my game EV actually WAS far higher than any other vp player could have ever hoped for.

I was using a much lower average bet, between $1 and $2 video poker.

Were you using a card for your $12-million of coin-thru? At Rincon if you ran that much through there you'd probably get about $3600 in free play and who knows what additional offers you'd get after that.

No I wasn't using a card for around 125 of those 300 sessions. I agree I gave up probably a pile of comps, but if you can put yourself into my mindset just for this moment, you'd see none of that was important to me because everything I developed and prepared for was only from the machines. I welcomed the gravy, but most of it really wasn't necessary (other than the free rooms to stay in).

OK, I understand. But after I posted my estimate above, I think I underestimated. it could have been much more than $3600.

If a person spends any time playing or thinking about Singer's SPS progression they will easily see that the average bet is much lower than Singer claimed. Absolute proof he has never played his own system.

I love it when Singer outs himself. Nice going Alan, you did a great job of taking apart his lies.

So arci, other than you're continuous made-up lies about me because of your current envy over how my wife and I are "living" retirement :) when exactly are you going to produce those pictures of your supposed $1000 wins, you know, to prove you just didn't load the machine and cash out 7 times?

Still waiting arci.....:)

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

So arci, other than you're continuous made-up lies about me because of your current envy over how my wife and I are "living" retirement :) when exactly are you going to produce those pictures of your supposed $1000 wins, you know, to prove you just didn't load the machine and cash out 7 times?

Still waiting arci.....:)

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HAHAHAHA, this is just outright funny coming from you. I believe you're 2 months due.......Where's all your priceless paperwork? Show up with that first before you get the idea you're entitled to anything.

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Originally Posted by Vegas_lover

HAHAHAHA, this is just outright funny coming from you. I believe you're 2 months due.......Where's all your priceless paperwork? Show up with that first before you get the idea you're entitled to anything.

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Entitled? :) We want PROOF that arci plays anything but nickels! He's already been caught in the lie about not being able to take pics in that Indian casino, complete with a name and the tel. no. that anybody can check with. His whole schtick on forums is based on an AP lie because he doesn't even play like he espouses. And what about the paperwork? Let's ask this about that: You're in successful retirement, your wife isn't interested in either video poker, forum bravado, or making trips that are a long way and have nothing to do with anything family related. Now look at arci, who has nothing but time along with a wife he ignored when she became ill and who sneaked out to play nickels every week because he can't stand being around imperfection. Of COURSE he'll criticize & lie about what I'm doing and not doing right now, because the rest of his life is in self-created shambles. And your story? An anonymous Internet hack who criticizes? Lalalalala lalala lalalalala!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

This would be a major guess, because the ONLY thing I kept track of was profit.

I played about 425 sessions of my 5 strategies, with maybe 300 of them on SPS. I can guess that my average bet was on the $5 to $10 games on SPS, so use $7.50. Sessions ran from 1 minute to 10-12 hours, with an average of about 3-4 hours. I used my card in maybe 175 of those sessions, until I got into some trouble with two casinos. In the other 125 or so sessions my avg. bet was maybe $2 games. I always used a card playing these other four strategies. If you can figure some amount out from this then have at it.

After I got stopped by Bellagio & Harrahs I started to mingle SPS with the other strategies in alternating trips. And it's not like my comps were bad. I don't think I ever checked into less than four hotels on any weekly (and later, semi-weekly) trip in order to take advantage of what the offer included. I did make the most of what I got IN THE MAIL. I NEVER talked to casino hosts to get a thing that wasn't in the offer or that I got "cheated" out of for whatever reasons. Why should I, when I was winning regularly? That's what it was all about, and still is as far as I'm concerned. It was all about that, and keeping it simple. When I drove home it was with a mind entirely at peace, unless I lost.

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1. Out of curiosity, what was the trouble you got into?
2. Even though you weren't playing for comps (as you accuse everyone else of doing), what harm would there have been to have your player's card in the machine every time? What is the down side of simply inserting your card and doing what you do?

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Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

1. Out of curiosity, what was the trouble you got into?
2. Even though you weren't playing for comps (as you accuse everyone else of doing), what harm would there have been to have your player's card in the machine every time? What is the down side of simply inserting your card and doing what you do?

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I played a LOT of winning sessions at Bellagio and they banned me because they said I was receiving RFB on every visit and they couldnt't figure out how to make a profit off of me. My editor posted the letter I received alongside a column I wrote about it. Harrahs also stopped me from playing vp and coming in RFB. That's when I stopped using my card on SPS only. It made sense to do that since I was attracting heat with my high rate of winning as well as higher limit play.

Bellagio was the first casino to have facial recognition software. From the day it opened they even used it to the extent to see high rollers in their cars arriving at the valet.

At MGM where I ran into heat at craps, as soon as I walked into the casino after my big incident, suits and security appeared at my table to watch me -- and I did not present a player's card and it was more than a year after the "incident."

So Rob, why do you think not inserting your card hid you from security?

And if I recall, you used to make a big fuss about how NO advantage video poker player was ever banned from a casino for winning too much money... but you were?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

So arci, other than you're continuous made-up lies about me because of your current envy over how my wife and I are "living" retirement :) when exactly are you going to produce those pictures of your supposed $1000 wins, you know, to prove you just didn't load the machine and cash out 7 times?

Still waiting arci.....:)

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Absolutely hilarious. I posted the $1000 winning tickets dated on the exact date I stated I won and then produced AFTER you asked for evidence. Much better evidence that a picture that could be anyone's machine from any date. You're looking very foolish, robki.

You're also looking bad when claiming that I'm jealous of your lifestyle. Been there, done that for 5 years. Oh, that's right. I retired over 14 years ago when all you could afford was living off your wife in a tiny little apartment. I traveled the US for 6 years bowling professionally. I then spent winters in Las Vegas for 5 years making money every year. What have you done besides turn green every time someone mentions Dancer's name while playing your nickel/penny machines?

Bwah haha haha haha

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

So Rob, why do you think not inserting your card hid you from security?

And if I recall, you used to make a big fuss about how NO advantage video poker player was ever banned from a casino for winning too much money... but you were?

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The more robki scrambles around the more obvious it becomes that almost everything he says is a lie. You've caught him yet again.

Stop everything, I want to know more about this?

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

I traveled the US for 6 years bowling professionally.

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Of course, you would have to give us your real name so we can enjoy your stories. But I would like to know if you enjoyed the Tiger Woods effect
and had ladies following you on the circuit?

First, I bowled on the senior tour so the number of groupies was pretty small to non-existent. My wife was with me on most of the trips as well. That said, I did notice a few guys finding "dates" while touring.

There's no money in bowling ... I did it for the experience and to have a reason to travel. I'm glad I did. It's something you have to experience to really understand.

I had some success but I found out that the physical toll was high even with a sport like bowling. I hurt my wrist in my very first tournament and when it got better I proceeded to have knee problems. Even after surgery I was never able to bowl like I wanted.

It was interesting to watch the latest tour event this past weekend. Probably the best bowler of the last 30 years, Walter Ray Williams, mentioned his recent problems with arthritis (he turned 50 last year). Well, that was why I eventually quit. I found out that bowling day after day aggravates arthritis. Some tournaments were 42 games plus pro-ams and practice in 4 days. If I was lucky to make it to the last day of the tournament I rarely could compete.

What is the average age of bowlers on the circuit??

To bowl on the senior tour you must be 50 or older. However, they also have special prize lists for "super seniors" aged 60 and above making the average age much higher.

I found a pirate clip of one of Arci's tournaments. Unfortunately, he finished second in this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=2t2GgN_RC7M

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I played a LOT of winning sessions at Bellagio and they banned me because they said I was receiving RFB on every visit and they couldnt't figure out how to make a profit off of me. My editor posted the letter I received alongside a column I wrote about it. Harrahs also stopped me from playing vp and coming in RFB. That's when I stopped using my card on SPS only. It made sense to do that since I was attracting heat with my high rate of winning as well as higher limit play.

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Since this letter and accompanying column must be of great historical significance due to the rarity of VP players getting 86'ed (especially a big name superstar such as yourself), how about posting them here for all of us to see. Surely a significant event like this would still be in your personal archives. Thanks in advance.

Vic, you asked me what it was and I explained it. I took down my site when I retired from playing professionally, and while the article may be still available somewhere, I have no idea where to look. Besides, don't you think that even if I posted everything verbatim, you and arci would both claim it was just recently concocted, primarily because neither of you can stand how my star shines on? And FYI, it wasn't that big a deal to me. There were still plenty of casinos left in Nevada.

BTW, have you ever asked Dancer--a known and proven manufacturer of vp stories in his columns--to kindly come up with something in writing acknowledging his supposedly being "backed off" (whatever that means) from playing at places he claims to have been "backed off" from playing, in his columns? If you have, could you please provide evidence right here & right now? Thanks in advance.

In my case, when I got into trouble at MGM and Bellagio and NYNY there was nothing in writing. One of the first things taught in law school is "don't write it if you don't have to." (Well, maybe it's not taught in law school, but every lawyer will tell you that.)

I did make a Google search for back issues of Gaming Today and could not find any. it's possible they are not online. I sent an email to GT asking if back issues and your columns, Rob, were available and I will let you know what they say.

If you put it on your website it is possible (emphasize: possible) that Alexa.com archived that page in its "way back machine." Do you have an approximate date when this appeared on your site? Then we could check Alexa.com as well as Google to see if it was archived. Also, do you recall the title of the article which could also help in a search?

The best I can guestimate on the article's date was sometime before Wynn sold Bellagio.

I tried to access your old web pages on Alexa.com and they don't have many archived. And the few I tried would not come up, perhaps because of computer speed, or how deep they are buried in some archival server. But without a date or even a month or a few months it would be hard to check archives so far back.

As I mentioned my Google search showed nothing, except some references to posts on LVA in 2008. Rob, did you keep hard copies of the GT paper? And did GT actually published a photo of the letter?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I tried to access your old web pages on Alexa.com and they don't have many archived. And the few I tried would not come up, perhaps because of computer speed, or how deep they are buried in some archival server. But without a date or even a month or a few months it would be hard to check archives so far back.

As I mentioned my Google search showed nothing, except some references to posts on LVA in 2008. Rob, did you keep hard copies of the GT paper? And did GT actually published a photo of the letter?

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I rarely saw hard copies because as a writer I received free online access, and I usually didn't look at my column--only read other things they published. 2008 was well past when this occured. I believe a copy of the letter appeared. I do have a flash drive with supposedly all the content of my website as told to me by my former webmaster, but it isn't user friendly. I'll give it a go in the next few days and let you know what I find.