Strategy for the new Caesars Tier Credit Bonuses

One of the new features of the revised Caesars Tiers in the Total Rewards program is the "tier credit bonuses" that award additional tier credits or points for a certain level of play.

Here's how Caesars Total Rewards explained the bonuses in a mailer:

If you earn 500 tier credits in a day you get an additional 125 tier credits.
If you earn 1,000 tier credits in a day you get an additional 1,000 tier credits.
If you earn 2,500 tier credits in a day you get an additional 5,000 tier credits.

The most important words in the description of the program are "in a day" and the fine print of the mailer from Total Rewards says:

"Specific hours vary by casino. Check with your Total Rewards Center to learn when the daily Tier Credit earning period begins and end (e.g. 6am to 5:59am)"

I didn't ask the last time I was at Rincon.

Clearly, everyone needs a strategy now to maximize their points. If you are at a casino property for a weekend, or several days, you might want to concentrate all your play on one "day" to maximize your additional bonus points.

And to maximize your points properly, you want to be sure you know when the day starts and ends.

I think we also need to know that if we are playing when the day changes (for example, let's say the day changes at 2am and we are playing when the day changes, do we have to remove our cards and reinsert them to be credited for play on the separate days, or will the computer credit our points and play on the separate days automatically?

I also think it would be a good idea if we could share information about when the "days" start at end at the various Total Rewards casinos.

Yup, there may be an advantage to playing a specific amount of time/hands rather than using win/loss goals.

I contacted Harrah's Rincon about the "gaming day" there: "Our gaming day begins at 6am and ends at 5:59am."

I remember hearing that in Las Vegas the "gaming day" is at 4-am. Is this true?

Playing at certain "times"....playing for "bonus points"....really? When I FINALLY comprehended that this was exactly how the casinos wanted players to react--and then started doing everything possible that was exactly the opposite of how the casinos wanted me to act--I went on an 11 year winning streak that only my age could stop. When you allow casinos to control you like this with slot club fluff which takes players away from their primary goal which is to win money--even if it's all only in your mind like it is with arci--you play right into the casino's hands. Then, the excuses start to fly.

Speaking of which, did you see Dancer react to my post on vpFree about that ill-fated Riveria promotion he got roped into participating in with the Wizard as his partner because he couldn't afford to go it alone (yeah, some success :))? The column clearly identified frustration, losing, confusion, and a total hatred of the "Riv" and every employee there. Yet he tried his best act at an arci-like imitation of damage control by suddenly claiming everything was super, they "won", and either one of them would be more than happy to go back there anytime.

Permit me to laugh! :):)

Rob, can you post a link to the article on VPfree -- and is that a message board that you must sign up for and subscribe to in order to read the contents? In other words, is it not open to all readers?

And regarding your "strategy" and playing on a casino's so-called schedule. No one is obligated to play at any particular time, but when you do play can affect your bonuses and the value of your play. You've probably left plenty of money "on the table" because you failed to take advantage of various offers that were available to you. Unless of course you think the machines are rigged to not pay off during certain promotion times I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want to play when there are promotion times that would help you. Do you think the machines are rigged during these certain times, Rob?

edited to add: there is no website vpfree.com so just what are you referring to?

vpFree is a Yahoo forum, and you must be a member to read the messages.

No, I've never left a dime on the table and in fact have probably won at least 6 figures by not playing for the points and/or slot club status. Had I been foolish enough to do that, I'd have never quit when I reached my session win goals because I would have put going for the promo or slot club status before winning X amount of money. Remember this: no matter how often you see highly advertised promotions like the Rincon and other Indian casino deal or specials and no matter how big a deal people like Bob Dancer make about silly promos like he plays that he claims are "+EV", rest assured, the casinos know exactly what they are doing and who/what kind of players will come in for it with as large a bankroll as they can muster....and they have a pretty good idea of how much they will make from it and all these sharpies prior to it starting. Otherwise, do you think they would even have them, and so often all over LV? It is just simple common sense.

I certainly agree that you should not play for promos or for points and your first concern should be your own bottom line. But if you are going to play anyway, it certainly makes sense to play when you will get the most bang for the buck and that can include fringe benefits, points towards drawings, comps, cashback, even coffee mugs and t-shirts.

In the case of what Total Rewards has changed its system, it now makes sense to make use of those changes to maximize the value of your own play.

Rincon, for example, says its "gaming day" starts at 6-AM so there is now added value in playing just before 6-AM and then playing again just after 6-AM to maximize the additional "bonus tier points" that you can earn for your play.

The tier points have an actual value whether you want to admit it or not inclujding comps, air travel, limo services, dinners, passes, events, etc.

Smart players put some effort into the games they choose, the strategies they use (even your strategy Rob) and playing to maximize these other perks is also a smart move.

I understand your point Alan, but it's a counter-intuitive point if you have a good comprehension of my play strategy. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is more important than doing everything on my own terms. And by casinos roping in players to play for special status, free stuff, or points, the entire mindset is changed and works far more advantageous for the casinos. When I say I do everything on my own terms, I mean EVERYTHING, and nothing temps me or weakens my knees as most players fall prey to.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I understand your point Alan, but it's a counter-intuitive point if you have a good comprehension of my play strategy. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is more important than doing everything on my own terms. And by casinos roping in players to play for special status, free stuff, or points, the entire mindset is changed and works far more advantageous for the casinos. When I say I do everything on my own terms, I mean EVERYTHING, and nothing temps me or weakens my knees as most players fall prey to.

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Rob, just wondering if you have any thoughts on how to achieve this mindset-do you prepare yourself mentally beforehand or is it just a determination instilled from memories of former years. Thanks.

There is another new benefit that I am trying to get more information about: "preferred free play redemption rates" which I would think means some extra free play when you convert comp points. Currently its two comp dollars for every free play dollar. This is listed as a new benefit for "Diamonds" but I am sure it also applies to 7Stars players. This could be especially valuable since Diamonds and 7Stars frequently can earn comp dollars faster than needed to pay for hotel meals. For higher level diamonds (80,000 tier credits) there is also a $750 air fare reimbursement and an even better redemption rate for free play than lower level diamonds.

But now, it's not only easier but also cheaper to become Seven Stars. Because now, effectively, you need only 20 day-sessions to obtain 7Stars at a lower cost than ever before. Consider this:

If you play 20 sessions at video poker ($10 coin in = 1 tier point) and earn 2,500 points with $25,000 of coin-in you will have a total of 50,000 tier points.
Now, you will also get the Bonus of 5,000 tier points for each one of these sessions. 20 X 5,000 = 100,000.
So the bonus points plus 50,000 basic tier points that you earned through play reaches the necessary Seven Stars benchmark of 150,000.

To do this, let's play 8/5 Bonus at Caesars Palace or 8/5 Aces Bonu$ or 8/5 Aces and Faces at Rincon (99.2% games) and let's do some figuring:

First, in the course of the year you have will to have $500,000 coin-in on these games to earn the 50,000 basic tier points (before the bonus). What will that cost you? Theoretically, without any fringes such as free play, etc. those games would give you a return of $496,000 or a loss of $4,000 over the course of a year, or a loss of $200 per visit. I could make a strong argument that at that level of play ($25,000 of coin in per visit) you could be comped for your stay and your comps would be worth the $200 loss at the machine. So this play could turn into a "wash" or break-even.

Prior to this new system, you would have to have coin-in of $1-million dollars to earn 100,000 points for the Seven Stars rank, at a theoretical cost of $8,000.

Again, the importance is to concentrate your play so that you have days of 2,500 earned "basic tier points" so that you maximize the "bonus tier points."

Edited to add: While 9/6 Jacks or Better video poker is not available any longer at Rincon it is still available at Caesars Palace on $5 and higher denominations. If you played 9/6 Jacks at Caesars for $500,000 of coin-in spread over 20 days, your theoretical cost for Seven Stars would be $2,300. The value of comps could affect this as would cost of going to Vegas, hotel rates, etc if you were not fully comped.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Edited to add: While 9/6 Jacks or Better video poker is not available any longer at Rincon it is still available at Caesars Palace on $5 and higher denominations. If you played 9/6 Jacks at Caesars for $500,000 of coin-in spread over 20 days, your theoretical cost for Seven Stars would be $2,300. The value of comps could affect this as would cost of going to Vegas, hotel rates, etc if you were not fully comped.

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Yes, A lots of talk about TR these days.
Even at work and at the grocery store.

The $2300 expected loss you mention is an average.

The possible range is determined by standard deviation (considers number of hands played and $ per hand and # of hands)
I show about $17,000 for One SD for the CP $5 player.

The normal curve, most use 3 times +/- SD for the range around that average (mean).
(VP is not really a normal curve, but at high enough hands played, is close enough to work with the numbers)

This means one player can end up after, say 20,000 hands at max bet $5 VP in your example, 99.7% chance of between
-$53,300 to +$48,700 and not one person before they start this quest
can guess exactly where they will end up.
Pretty Cool Huh!

Now just ONE player has about a .56% chance (1 in 179)yes, a small chance of ending at -$2300 +/1 $1200
one player could lose $20,000 or MORE with a probability of about 14.8% or about 26 times MORE likely to end up in that interval than the theo interval.
But, one player could end up winning over $15,000 with about the same 14.8% probability.
Cool again. The FUN part of gambling. Where one ends up after playing awhile.

Of course, This is only attainable if you have the needed bankroll to make it thru many many hands played.

Of course, when 1 million players play this way, more will end up around -$2300 than any other SINGLE value, but it will probably not be you.

Just like the lottery.
The odds against you (one person) winning it, 100millions to 1 against, but because enough people play it is hit almost every week.
And some do hit more than one time. Not many.

Alan, Have fun playing and keep us informed.
May "lady variance" be kind to you this year!
Sally

Thanks for the numbers and for the work!! You are correct that I gave an average and it can swing both ways and dramatically.
I mentioned this on the Wizard's Forum:

Ive been playing 8/5 Aces and Faces at Rincon (9/6 Jacks is not available at Rincon) and already have 27,000 tier points since Jan 1st with a net loss of $400 cash, but I have earned about $160 in comps which I can convert to either $80 of free play or Shell/Arco gas cards.

At this rate I will reach 7 Stars at a cost of about $1,900 over 20 visits or $95 per visit.

And what do I get in return:

1. $500 anniversary/special dinner
2. pretty much unlimited free hotel stays
3. annual gift which I valued at $250
4. quarterly Rincon gifts which I value at $100 each based on previous quarterly gifts
5. "annual trip" which includes $500 dining credit
6. $750 airfare reimbursement for a trip
7. limos to/from airport
8. assorted ego boosting things such as special lines, diamond lounge
9. early check in, late check out
10. unlimited free movies in the hotel room (incredibly valuable -- at $12-$15 per movie watch 3 per trip)

You can visit vpfree here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

You don't need to subscribe to read the messages. However, you do need to have a yahoo id. Easy to get.

Thanks for the link Arc. I signed on but I can't find the thread or discussion in question. I think I need some advice on how to find things on that forum. It appears very disorganized to me. Help?

Just got back from Rincon to try my luck again at the strategy of playing 2500 points per day to maximize the bonus tier credits. It was a successful trip.

I played 8/5 Aces and Faces at $2 level with $80 of free play that I get on Sundays plus $500 cash. I played till I had 2503 tier points which qualified me for the 5,000 bonus and cashed out. So, what did I cash out? Exactly $1300 thanks to quad aces for $800 which I hit after I had about 1200 tier points played.

I cashed out my tickets, washed up and before heading to the car just checked my tier score one more time to be sure I had the 2503 registered. Ironically, the second time my card was in a machine the tier credits for the session came up as 2535 so there must be a lag on the meters.

So with the bonus tier credits I will show a total of a little more than 34,500 and now I have a $400 cash profit plus comp points which have some cash value.

Speaking of cash value for comp points, while I was there I got the info about the new "conversion rates" for comp dollars into free play and I am starting a separate thread on it. Indeed, Diamond and 7 Stars players will be getting a discount on free play when they convert their comp dollars.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Thanks for the link Arc. I signed on but I can't find the thread or discussion in question. I think I need some advice on how to find things on that forum. It appears very disorganized to me. Help?

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There is only one long physical thread. However, if you click on any post it will take to a sub-thread based on that name. In this case it is "Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 8 JAN 2013".

Since it appears most of the comments are related to that particular thread you can just page through the main thread to see them.

Hint: On the main page after you have signed in you will see a "view all" area to click on. This will get you to the main thread.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Just got back from Rincon to try my luck again at the strategy of playing 2500 points per day to maximize the bonus tier credits. It was a successful trip.

I played 8/5 Aces and Faces at $2 level with $80 of free play that I get on Sundays plus $500 cash. I played till I had 2503 tier points which qualified me for the 5,000 bonus and cashed out. So, what did I cash out? Exactly $1300 thanks to quad aces for $800 which I hit after I had about 1200 tier points played.

I cashed out my tickets, washed up and before heading to the car just checked my tier score one more time to be sure I had the 2503 registered. Ironically, the second time my card was in a machine the tier credits for the session came up as 2535 so there must be a lag on the meters.

So with the bonus tier credits I will show a total of a little more than 34,500 and now I have a $400 cash profit plus comp points which have some cash value.

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It appears Alan is starting to understand what being a APer is all about. It is very often that the player's club extras are the things that make a play positive. All you will get from Singer is his usual nonsense about all APers lose. Alan is starting to see the truth.

Total hogwash. The only thing that makes a play "positive" or not is if you've won money directly from the machine. This silly notion that a player can "rate-a-play" positive or negative before playing it and tallying his or her results, is a total waste of time. Had I "pre-rated" that machine I recently hit $2 & $5 royals on at Casino Fandango, I'd have never played it as it was under 100%, and I'd be out $28,000. The same goes for all I won during my career playing professionally, because I rarely found a greater than 100% game. Casinos can and do rate their games and do their forecasts based on the paytables. But because no player can ever reach even the entry point of long-term whenever they play any particular machine, their results on that machine are the only method of "rating the play".

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I understand your point Alan, but it's a counter-intuitive point if you have a good comprehension of my play strategy. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is more important than doing everything on my own terms. And by casinos roping in players to play for special status, free stuff, or points, the entire mindset is changed and works far more advantageous for the casinos. When I say I do everything on my own terms, I mean EVERYTHING, and nothing temps me or weakens my knees as most players fall prey to.

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If Casino A and Casino B had identical machines for you to play, and only one of them had a promotion/players club which returned value for your play, you would deliberately go to the other one just to maintain your tough guy image?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

This silly notion that a player can "rate-a-play" positive or negative before playing it and tallying his or her results, is a total waste of time. Had I "pre-rated" that machine I recently hit $2 & $5 royals on at Casino Fandango, I'd have never played it as it was under 100%, and I'd be out $28,000. The same goes for all I won during my career playing professionally, because I rarely found a greater than 100% game.

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Rob, you of all people know the difference between "expected return" and "actual return." There is nothing wrong with deciding how to play or what to play using "expected return." And we all know that "actual return" can and most likely will differ from "expected return."

You, yourself, even say that you will play the best possible paytable available. But when it's not, you play the best game you can the best way you can. Okay, no one can fault you for that because we probably all do that.

When I am at Caesars and lack the budget to play the $5 games for the 8/5 Bonus Poker, I'm stuck playing the $1 and $2 machines which have 7/5 Bonus on them. That's just the reality of life.

But if I were able to choose which game to play and my budget was not an issue, I would certainly prefer the 8/5 Bonus at the $5 level.

Of course the bottom line -- what you win or lose -- is the most important factor. I don't think there is anyone whose goal is to play the "better game" rather than to win money. But we all know that playing the better game can help us win money.

By the way, I figured that my new "budget" for playing the $2 Aces and Faces game at Rincon in an attempt to reach 2,500 tier points per visit should be in the range of $500. This Thursday I have the following free play promotions available to me:
$165 weekly free play
$100 guaranteed "mystery money" but the other "choices" are $75, $200, $350, $1000 so I will choose the "mystery option"
$120 "Total Play" extra promotion that is available at midnight

So my guaranteed free play for Thursday night is $385, and the least free play I can get is $310 if I get the lowest payout on the mystery money.

I think this is a "good play" on Thursday.

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

You can visit vpfree here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

You don't need to subscribe to read the messages. However, you do need to have a yahoo id. Easy to get.

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Arci-I clicked on the link you provided. I just get a grid showing how many messages on a particular day but I can't seem to access any threads. What am I missing/

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Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

If Casino A and Casino B had identical machines for you to play, and only one of them had a promotion/players club which returned value for your play, you would deliberately go to the other one just to maintain your tough guy image?

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Not tough guy Vic, smart guy. If I've chosen to make a trip to LV or somewhere in Nv. and had that choice between Casino A or B (no slot club), I'd only go to B if Casino A didn't and B did have the superior games. And by superior I mean SDBP & TBP + for the advanced BP game of my strategy.

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Originally Posted by regnis

Arci-I clicked on the link you provided. I just get a grid showing how many messages on a particular day but I can't seem to access any threads. What am I missing/

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On my computers one must become a member in order to read the messages, and not just the recent sampling that page shows you.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob, you of all people know the difference between "expected return" and "actual return." There is nothing wrong with deciding how to play or what to play using "expected return." And we all know that "actual return" can and most likely will differ from "expected return."

You, yourself, even say that you will play the best possible paytable available. But when it's not, you play the best game you can the best way you can. Okay, no one can fault you for that because we probably all do that.

When I am at Caesars and lack the budget to play the $5 games for the 8/5 Bonus Poker, I'm stuck playing the $1 and $2 machines which have 7/5 Bonus on them. That's just the reality of life.

But if I were able to choose which game to play and my budget was not an issue, I would certainly prefer the 8/5 Bonus at the $5 level.

Of course the bottom line -- what you win or lose -- is the most important factor. I don't think there is anyone whose goal is to play the "better game" rather than to win money. But we all know that playing the better game can help us win money.

By the way, I figured that my new "budget" for playing the $2 Aces and Faces game at Rincon in an attempt to reach 2,500 tier points per visit should be in the range of $500. This Thursday I have the following free play promotions available to me:
$165 weekly free play
$100 guaranteed "mystery money" but the other "choices" are $75, $200, $350, $1000 so I will choose the "mystery option"
$120 "Total Play" extra promotion that is available at midnight

So my guaranteed free play for Thursday night is $385, and the least free play I can get is $310 if I get the lowest payout on the mystery money.

I think this is a "good play" on Thursday.

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That's just it--no player ever has a so-called "expected return" regardless of the paytable, at any machine. All you have are better or worse paytables, that's it. And whether you do good or bad has nothing to do with 5 credits on the FH. It has to do with how lucky you got while you were at that machine. Nothing more/nothing less. The casino is the only entity with an expected return because of the huge amount of play they get, and that's the best projection for what they'll see as profit. For players, their only measurement is what you accurately labeled actual return. My actual return in the years I played pro was probably well over XX% and how thru-the-roof is my return on that machine I hit the royals on at Fandango? But if I went by expected return, I should have lost, lost and lost again. That's how inaccurate and silly expected return is overall.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Not tough guy Vic, smart guy. If I've chosen to make a trip to LV or somewhere in Nv. and had that choice between Casino A or B (no slot club), I'd only go to B if Casino A didn't and B did have the superior games. And by superior I mean SDBP & TBP + for the advanced BP game of my strategy.

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this of course makes sense, because you are valuing the game above slot club benefits. I think we all do that.

If Rincon didn't have 8/5 Aces and Faces or 8/5 Aces Bonus I would be playing at Pechanga which does have 8/5 Bonus.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

That's how inaccurate and silly expected return is overall.

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Expected return is one element that has to be considered when you decide where to play and what games to play, just as the type of game you play. I, for example, do not know enough about deuces wild to play that game, so I would not go to a casino that is predominantly a deuces wild casino even if the games were all positive. I also, for example, would avoid playing Triple Double Bonus unless I had a huge bankroll so I would avoid that game as well.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Expected return is one element that has to be considered when you decide where to play and what games to play, just as the type of game you play. I, for example, do not know enough about deuces wild to play that game, so I would not go to a casino that is predominantly a deuces wild casino even if the games were all positive. I also, for example, would avoid playing Triple Double Bonus unless I had a huge bankroll so I would avoid that game as well.

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If you had said the same game's better paytable then I'd agree, because I do that myself based on after where I decide to play. ER is simply a function of how the casino looks at game profitability and has nothing at all to do with how good or bad a player can expect his results to be. Think about it: the machine gets maybe millions of hands played, you get maybe a few thousand when you sit at it. Game ER has no effect on your actual return for the time you play it. Only luck will tell a true tale. That's why ER is a non-factor when deciding where to play, or when.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

If you had said the same game's better paytable then I'd agree,

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Gee, Rob, I always thought the "expected return" is based on the pay table. What's the phrase... "with a paytable of ______ and expert play your expected return is____." Are you saying it isn't? Or are you just trying to put another of your anti-casino spins on this also?

You're confused in a dramatic way. I play the best paytable available where I decide to play. Saying my expected return is 99.1% on a machine means absolutely nothing. I'm not going to hit that, you aren't, and the overwhelming majority of players who sit at that machine aren't going to hit it. But the casino is and they base their business around it. If I'm unlucky I'll lose and if I'm lucky I'll win. That's all there is to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

You're confused in a dramatic way. I play the best paytable available where I decide to play. Saying my expected return is 99.1% on a machine means absolutely nothing. I'm not going to hit that, you aren't, and the overwhelming majority of players who sit at that machine aren't going to hit it. But the casino is and they base their business around it. If I'm unlucky I'll lose and if I'm lucky I'll win. That's all there is to it.

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Okay, agreed. So what's your point? All I am saying is that you use the pay table to help you choose which game to play. You summarize the pay table with the catch phrase "expected return." The EV is one element in the decision making process. Others can include the type of game you like, the comps you get, a smoke free gaming area, anything. So what are you arguing about?

There is no confusion here except for you alleging that there is confusion.

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Originally Posted by regnis

Arci-I clicked on the link you provided. I just get a grid showing how many messages on a particular day but I can't seem to access any threads. What am I missing/

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The "view all" is available if you join vpfree. Looks like you have to join to see the messages. I believe at one time you could read the messages by clicking on the various months. Looks like this no longer works.

Hilarious. The pay table/ER is meaningless but Singer plays the best pay table available. Does anyone else get a huge belly laugh out of this double talk. Of course, Singer is completely clueless and anyone who believes a word he says is a fool.

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

The "view all" is available if you join vpfree. Looks like you have to join to see the messages. I believe at one time you could read the messages by clicking on the various months. Looks like this no longer works.

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Why can't you just come out and admit you gave the wrong information that I had to correct, instead of again trying to save face, claiming something in the past that's never been....even BEFORE you were banned from posting there for good. Facts arci, facts. Remember? Tom has always allowed potential members to read a most recent sample before joining, since day 1 of vpFree.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Okay, agreed. So what's your point? All I am saying is that you use the pay table to help you choose which game to play. You summarize the pay table with the catch phrase "expected return." The EV is one element in the decision making process. Others can include the type of game you like, the comps you get, a smoke free gaming area, anything. So what are you arguing about?

There is no confusion here except for you alleging that there is confusion.

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No confusion about er or paytables. I was referring to the anti-casino idea you were pondering. I'm not sure where that came from given how well I've been doing in my retirement. But, I did treat them as the enemy when I played as a pro. If anything, casinos are now my friends!

At Rincon the "casino day" ends at 6-AM, so right on schedule the "bonus tier points" have been added to my account the following calendar day.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

At Rincon the "casino day" ends at 6-AM, so right on schedule the "bonus tier points" have been added to my account the following calendar day.

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When I went on a trip around the country that had us staying at all the Harrahs casinos in the US plus the one in Ontario, I ran into various promos and even some special "have your Harrahs passport stamped at as many slot clubs as possible for this & that bonus points", it was a very complicated policy to follow. However, when I checked it thoroughly about three weeks after returning, they did exactly what the rules said they would. All bonus points were correctly added, I received all freeplay coupons in the mail as promised, and several bonus gifts arrived in addition. So despite all the Harrahs bashing you see on other forums, they actually do a pretty good job with their specials all around.

One question I had for the folks at Rincon was what to do with your players card if you are at a machine at 6-am when the "game day" changes? I asked if it is wise to remove the card at 5:59am when the game day ends, and insert the card again at 6-am when the new day starts to be sure that you get the full credits for each of the two day's play? Here is the response I got from Rincon:

the best bet (no pun intended) is to always card out at 5:59am to get the maximum play for that gaming day. Then, card back in at 6am to begin earning for that day to get the maximum opportunity of play. It’s not going to interrupt your play, you will just be removing your card and you should not have to cash out….then you will resume play as soon as you re-insert your card again.

I suppose if you are at a table game at that time of the morning, you should also be asking the floorman or pit boss if he is starting a new day's play record for you at 6-AM??

At the casino where I play the day is 5AM-5AM. What makes matters worse is they use an "average day" for purposes of generating freeplay. So, if you play 1000 points within that time your average play is 1000. However, if you play across the the 5AM time your average becomes 500 and you get half as much freeplay.

One example where knowing how a player's club works can be advantageous to the player.

I just want to update this thread to say that on March 7th I reached (actually surpassed) the 150-thousand tier point mark to reach 7Stars again. But I have to admit that for some of the play, I was at $5 Aces and Faces with a little "double double bonus" thrown in when I was well ahead playing aces and faces.

The net result is that I reach 7Stars again, and with a profit thanks to a $20K royal that I got yesterday, March 7th. Prior to March 7th's play, I was down more than I thought I would be ($4,000 was my forecast) had I stuck with $2 Aces and Faces and I attribute that larger loss to playing the $5 games and not getting the necessary wins. I admit to blowing about $6,000 playing double double bonus -- money that I had won playing Aces and Faces.

I estimate that I played 60,000 hands before hitting the royal.

Congratulations Alan. How close to a 40K average hands/royal are you now after the last 3 years?

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

Congratulations Alan. How close to a 40K average hands/royal are you now after the last 3 years?

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I didnt keep track of hands played in 2012 so I am going to make a guess:

2011... 180,000 hands and zero royals
2012... 350,000 hands and 11 royals
2013.... 60,000 hands and 1 royal

total: 590,000 hands and 12 royals, or I royal about every 49,000 hands.

You're doing better than me. I played 510K hands total with 8 RFs or around 64K hands per.

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Originally Posted by arcimede$

You're doing better than me. I played 510K hands total with 8 RFs or around 64K hands per.

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The only reason my "stats" might appear better is that run I had at the end of last year... I had one royal a week for five out of six weeks.

What does all that gobbledegook mean anyway. The only stat that matters is how much are you ahead this year and how much you were ahead any year. I played peanuts for hands last year and won five figures. This year I've played even less and am ahead at least a bundle. If you need to keep track of your winning and losing specifics then that means one thing--that you can't really afford to lose. Patsies of the casinos. And anyone who plays tens of thousands of hands is probably an addict, although they will kick and scream LIAR before ever admitting to it. You guys keep pretending as you waste so much time at machines. I'll enjoy everything else.

Another hilarious comment by Singer. Remember, this is the dude who spent hour after hour playing VP to check out his fifth card turnover claim. Keeping track of a few royals, etc. takes almost no time at all yet is valuable if you want to continually verify the machines one is playing are legitimate.

Not only that but his projection is interesting ... "anyone who plays tens of thousands of hands is probably an addict" ... since it must describe his own play given his claims of hitting big jackpots.

Keep ranting the lies arci when we all know it's really that annoying sound of those "wheels" that's got you on edge:) I tingle....

Squeak squeak!!

It's a rarity, but I will take issue with something Arci mentioned -- namely that keeping tabs on royals is a way to verify legitimacy of video poker machines.

The fact is, very few people play enough on any given machine to ever be able to claim they've verified that that particular machine is legit vis-a-vis royals. And few people even play enough in any given location to be confident regarding the entirety of the location. That's the Catch 22 problem. I would say 95% or more of players will never be able to get a handle on whether a given location is legit or not. You simply do not know. And my point has always been that if one manager in one location happens to under-royal you, or one machine you play intensely goes faulty, your so-called positive EV just became negative EV.

The only way to know would be to get royal counts for all play on particular machines.

Management can do that -- you cannot.

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Originally Posted by redietz

It's a rarity, but I will take issue with something Arci mentioned -- namely that keeping tabs on royals is a way to verify legitimacy of video poker machines.

The fact is, very few people play enough on any given machine to ever be able to claim they've verified that that particular machine is legit vis-a-vis royals. And few people even play enough in any given location to be confident regarding the entirety of the location. That's the Catch 22 problem. I would say 95% or more of players will never be able to get a handle on whether a given location is legit or not. You simply do not know. And my point has always been that if one manager in one location happens to under-royal you, or one machine you play intensely goes faulty, your so-called positive EV just became negative EV.

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I agree that royals are not sufficient, but what I said was "royals, etc." ... it's not just royals. Keep in mind that I've been limited to playing on a very few machines since casinos started to cut back. In fact, right now I'm only playing on two machines.