So let's talk about the new VP $25 per tier credit requirement at CET properties

Caesars properties have long given you one tier credit per $10 of coin-in at video poker.

Even their own website says that's still the case:

Quote:

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Earn 1 Tier Credit for every $5.00 you play on a reel slot machine. Earn 1 Tier Credit for every $10.00 you play on a video poker machine.

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https://www.totalrewards.com/TotalRe...age=trBenefits

... but that's no longer true in Las Vegas.

Reports have emerged that you now need $25 of play for one tier credit at video poker.

This is clearly being done to combat the "Seven Stars grinders" -- the ones who play exactly 2500 tiers (to get the bonus 5000) and quit, and who play the highest-return VP machines, in order to earn the valuable Seven Stars level without a lot of cost.

Keep in mind that Seven Stars was originally designed for those with expected losses in the six figures per year, but the video poker people (myself included) have sidestepped that.

I don't blame Caesars for doing this, but I do think it's a bit scummy to do in the middle of the year, thus penalizing those who were on their way (but not all that near) to reaching Seven Stars.

I am hearing rumblings that certain casinos have NOT yet adopted that $25/tier credit thing.

So here are my questions:

1) Are ALL Vegas properties now $25/tier credit for VP?

2) Has this been changed in Reno and Tahoe yet?

3) Has this been changed in Laughlin yet?

4) Has this been changed at the Rincon yet?

If indeed it has changed completely, I will abandon my quest to renew my Seven Stars and just stick with "High Diamond" for 2014.

I have not heard about this. My score is already above 500,000 so it is not an issue for me this year, but will be next year. It means that I would barely make 7 Stars again and I certainly wouldn't qualify for any of the 7 Stars bonuses.

Caesars' has been leaking money like the Titanic for years now, despite having the worst overall gaming in Las Vegas. It amazes me that a company instituting 6/5 blackjack, horrible vp, paranoid sports betting limits, and the country's most overpriced buffets can lose money quarter after quarter -- and then decides one way to help fix things is to shut the smaller players out from their merit badge hierarchy. Where's Mitt when you need him to hijack a company?

I checked. It's not at Rincon. At Caesars Palace it's on full pay games such as 8/5 Bonus or 9/6 Jacks but you won't find it on, for example, 9/5 Double Double Bonus.

Photo of the notice that certain VP games require $25 per tier point. I am told these are placed on top of the bill acceptors.

(You must be a member to see the photo. Membership is free.)

Can they think of anything else to alienate the players? Let's see--

1. No discretionary comps until you have used up your points
2. Charging lower level diamonds to use the diamond club room
3. Lower the VP pay-tables and lower the points earned
4. Resort fees
5. Plain old deteriorating of properties
6. Deteriorated customer service
7. Overpriced shows and restaurants


I'm sure there's more---feel free to add

I too thought CET has been losing money left & right. But did you see the story about the million dollar giveaway at their Cleveland property? The drawing called a common name and the wrong guy with the same name got the prize. But when the right guy appeared, they felt stupid for not confirming anything so they gave him a million dollars too.

This is what a company leaking cash does?

I posted the photo on the Facebook page for Harrah's Rincon and then I spoke with some managers there who said they didn't know about it and hadn't even heard about the change in Vegas. Then today, on their Facebook page, their "monitor" or administrator wrote:

"Alan Mendelson thank you for posting this and bringing it to our attention. We will gladly pass this around Rincon for review!"

And I responded with:

"NO!!!! Do not pass it around for review. We DO NOT want you to change the coin-in required for tier points on video poker!! This change in Vegas is going to cost those casinos business and they didn't figure it out yet. Or maybe they did and they don't care?"

Question of the Day (to be passed along to the suits at Rincon):

When was the last time, and at which property, that a Harrah's-owned casino either improved player odds on any game or improved the comps from a previous standard?

I know, it looks like a trick question.

But there is an answer, believe it or not, and the winner gets lunch from me next time we're both in LV.

I don't know the answer but at Rincon it has been a mixed picture. On the one hand, it appears that comps have increased there with more free play offers. However, the free play has been spread out to multiple days making it more difficult to take advantage of them. Comps for food increased dramatically two months ago.

Some of the better video poker has been removed. 9/6 Jacks has been replaced by 8/5 Jacks. All Double Double Bonus is now 8/5. But there is still plenty of 8/5 Bonus and 8/5 Aces and Faces and there is full play Super Aces Bonus, and 8/5 ACE$ Bonus which is also a full pay game.

Caesars does not own Rincon, but manages the casino for the Rincon Tribe. But Rincon does offer the complete Total Rewards program plus some extras you won't find in Vegas including multiplier days for comps which can be used in Vegas with the same value as if they were won/earned in Vegas.

The way it's set up now, you are better off playing most games at Rincon then using the comps to vacation in Vegas.

But back to your question redietz: I don't know what other casinos might have improved the comp situation.

I actually stopped getting comps for Rincon, where I had a few decent offers for the first half of 2013. Now I have nothing.

Alan, what do you like so much about Rincon? I found it to be a mediocre hotel, out in the middle of nowhere, and not particularly close to LA. Still takes a substantial amount of time to get there, to where it's not that much time saved versus driving to Vegas.

Add that to the obnoxious situation where they cheated me on my massage, and I am not dying to go back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regnis

Can they think of anything else to alienate the players? Let's see--

1. No discretionary comps until you have used up your points
2. Charging lower level diamonds to use the diamond club room
3. Lower the VP pay-tables and lower the points earned
4. Resort fees
5. Plain old deteriorating of properties
6. Deteriorated customer service
7. Overpriced shows and restaurants


I'm sure there's more---feel free to add

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While you raise a good point with all of these, #1 is the worst.

Refusal to give you discretionary comps until you spend your RCs has no reasonable purpose other than to force you into dependence on your host (who in turn will force you to play regularly if you want comps).

Your RCs should never play into the decision to give you discretionaries, as they are accumulated points, and it should not matter if you spent them yesterday, today, or in 3 months. Here CET is punishing you for hoarding them and spending them wisely.

Terrible.

Dan Druff: I like Rincon primarily because of the TR program: I get comps that I can use in Vegas. My play at Rincon contributes to my TR tier score.

I liked Rincon a lot before the construction when it was a small casino. I called it a Goldilocks casino -- not too big, not too small, just right.

It has the video poker I like to play. I think the $5 card craps game is fun, and ironically I've hit the 5-point fire bet a total of three times there. Yes, I am way ahead at card craps but I've never bought in for more than $140 per session. My first 5-point fire bet payoff of $1250 came with a $40 buy in.

I've never stayed in the hotel, so I can't comment. The Fiore steakhouse is one of the best anywhere. A couple of weeks ago when I was in the area on business so I went there for dinner and didn't even play. There are few steahouses in the Los Angeles as good as Fiore -- maybe The Wilshire in Santa Monica and Mastros in Beverly Hills. Fiore is better than anything at Caesars Las Vegas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

While you raise a good point with all of these, #1 is the worst.

Refusal to give you discretionary comps until you spend your RCs has no reasonable purpose other than to force you into dependence on your host (who in turn will force you to play regularly if you want comps).

Your RCs should never play into the decision to give you discretionaries, as they are accumulated points, and it should not matter if you spent them yesterday, today, or in 3 months. Here CET is punishing you for hoarding them and spending them wisely.

Terrible.

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Where this really affected me Dan was when I couldn't go to Vegas for a few years. During that time they changed from the host system to the points system. So I had no points and even though I had a 50 g line of credit and used plenty of it, I was not diamond and had to earn the normal diamond comps. I couldnt even get a limo anymore. The host kept telling me don't worry--you can earn diamond in a day (you really could in those days), and he'll give me whatever I want, but I told him I aint waiting in any line to check in and I aint waiting for a cab or in a dinner line. And as I stated in another thread, Id rather pay then ask them for something.

Once I switched to another property then all of a sudden they wanted me back. I would have stayed at the other prop but here in chicago it's Caesars (harrahs and horseshoe).

Compwise, I know of no Harrah's property that has improved their comps over time or improved on the previous rules of the property they've taken over. In terms of gaming, again I know of no Harrah's property that has improved their player rules as compared to previous rules. The only exception to this -- when Harrah's gobbled up Caesar's Palace, they were sort of forced to acknowledge that CP had the more expert sports book. So they did what they could to ruin the place by lowering limits, lowering sports and race comps, and gutting already banked comps in the system by 60%. They did, however, adopt the futures odds of the CP book, more or less, which had always been better than the Harrah's numbers. So, since the odds at one Harrah's property are identical in all properties, the sports futures are now actually better than they were prior to the CP takeover.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan Druff: I like Rincon primarily because of the TR program: I get comps that I can use in Vegas. My play at Rincon contributes to my TR tier score.

I liked Rincon a lot before the construction when it was a small casino. I called it a Goldilocks casino -- not too big, not too small, just right.

It has the video poker I like to play. I think the $5 card craps game is fun, and ironically I've hit the 5-point fire bet a total of three times there. Yes, I am way ahead at card craps but I've never bought in for more than $140 per session. My first 5-point fire bet payoff of $1250 came with a $40 buy in.

I've never stayed in the hotel, so I can't comment. The Fiore steakhouse is one of the best anywhere. A couple of weeks ago when I was in the area on business so I went there for dinner and didn't even play. There are few steahouses in the Los Angeles as good as Fiore -- maybe The Wilshire in Santa Monica and Mastros in Beverly Hills. Fiore is better than anything at Caesars Las Vegas.

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Wait, you drive all the way to that remote part of SD County, and then drive all the way back home to LA instead of just staying the night? Why? You obviously get the rooms for free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

There are few steahouses in the Los Angeles as good as Fiore -- maybe The Wilshire in Santa Monica and Mastros in Beverly Hills. Fiore is better than anything at Caesars Las Vegas.

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I am sorry but Mastro's is 1000x the steakhouse that Fiore is. Fiore is not anything special as far as steakhouses go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Compwise, I know of no Harrah's property that has improved their comps over time or improved on the previous rules of the property they've taken over. In terms of gaming, again I know of no Harrah's property that has improved their player rules as compared to previous rules. The only exception to this -- when Harrah's gobbled up Caesar's Palace, they were sort of forced to acknowledge that CP had the more expert sports book. So they did what they could to ruin the place by lowering limits, lowering sports and race comps, and gutting already banked comps in the system by 60%. They did, however, adopt the futures odds of the CP book, more or less, which had always been better than the Harrah's numbers. So, since the odds at one Harrah's property are identical in all properties, the sports futures are now actually better than they were prior to the CP takeover.

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I bash CET as much as anyone, but the inclusion of a property into the CET family makes it so any Seven Stars member can get free rooms at any time (regardless of history at that particular property), and he can use his RCs to comp himself for whatever.

IMO that's immediately an improvement over some small, independent joint where you have to establish yourself to get anything free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

I am sorry but Mastro's is 1000x the steakhouse that Fiore is. Fiore is not anything special as far as steakhouses go.

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I also have to doubt that Fiore is better or equivalent to Mastro's, but I'll give it a try next time I go to Rincon.

I still have a 90 Minute massage coming to me (tip included) as compensation for that ripoff job that happened a few months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Wait, you drive all the way to that remote part of SD County, and then drive all the way back home to LA instead of just staying the night? Why? You obviously get the rooms for free.

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When I go there it is with a fixed entertainment budget -- I play it and if I win I take the money home. And if I lose, I leave. No reason to stay any longer, because I had my fun.

This is why I hate going to Vegas... you end up staying there for at least one night, maybe two. And I hate to be stuck there after losing my budgeted amount.

Mastro's is a magnificent steak house -- make no mistake about that. And it's pricey just like a magnificent steak house can be. Fiore also has some great steaks -- not all. I would avoid their rib eye, because it's not as good as I hoped for. But try the steak Diane with lobster tail... perfect! And dining at Fiore doesn't cost me much or anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

When I go there it is with a fixed entertainment budget -- I play it and if I win I take the money home. And if I lose, I leave. No reason to stay any longer, because I had my fun.

This is why I hate going to Vegas... you end up staying there for at least one night, maybe two. And I hate to be stuck there after losing my budgeted amount.

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I don't understand, though.

Haven't you ever played to where it got late, and just wanted to sleep instead of making the long drive home?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mastro's is a magnificent steak house -- make no mistake about that. And it's pricey just like a magnificent steak house can be. Fiore also has some great steaks -- not all. I would avoid their rib eye, because it's not as good as I hoped for. But try the steak Diane with lobster tail... perfect! And dining at Fiore doesn't cost me much or anything.

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Any place with a mediocre ribeye can't be considered a good steakhouse. That's a very standard item.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't understand, though.

Haven't you ever played to where it got late, and just wanted to sleep instead of making the long drive home?

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It's not that long of a drive. Two hours or less without traffic. Even when I go late at night if I leave before 4am I will be home well before 6.

Just got back from Vegas. Stayed at Planet Hollywood. Checked the $5 9/6 JoB in High Limit room. It also had a label on it
stating it takes $25 to earn 1 RC. At least they still had 9/6 JoB. Alan, make sure you don't leave after 5am, northbound
traffic on the 15 is really bad after 5am. Not to speak of the 91.
Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fly2rei

Just got back from Vegas. Stayed at Planet Hollywood. Checked the $5 9/6 JoB in High Limit room. It also had a label on it
stating it takes $25 to earn 1 RC. At least they still had 9/6 JoB. Alan, make sure you don't leave after 5am, northbound
traffic on the 15 is really bad after 5am. Not to speak of the 91.
Jim

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Huh?

Southern California traffic is typically bad eastbound in the afternoon/evening, and westbound in the morning.

Regarding the 15, it is heavy on Friday going north and Sunday going south.

I don't understand this 5am thing you wrote.

If you leave on a weekday morning traveling east on the 91 and then north on the 15, you will typically experience moderate (but not bad) traffic on the 91, and no traffic on the 15. If you leave at something like 11am, you will breeze through the whole way.

The one place you can get tricked is LEAVING Vegas in the middle of the night. If you leave Vegas at 3am (on a weekday), you will run into the San Bernadino traffic going west around 6-7am, and you will really suffer.

The basic rule of thumb for Vegas driving:

LA-to-Vegas: Leave before 1:30pm on weekdays, any time on weekends

Vegas-to-LA: Monday-Friday, leave any time before 2am. Saturday, leave any time. Sunday, you have to leave BEFORE 10am or AFTER 7:30pm.

I think the best time to drive to Vegas is after 9pm. Tbere is no good time to return to LA.

Dan, I don't know Alan's route home from Rincon but all I'm saying is if it is the northbound 15 to the WESTBOUND 91 (or the 60,or the 10) to the 5 to LA,
then he had better leave before 5am. I live just off the 210 and the 15 in Rancho Cucamonga. And have driven home from Rincon many times in the
early morning. The 15 can back up northbound until you get past the 91. Then like you said it is clear sailing all the way to Vegas.
Jim

I always try to leave Rincon before 4am, and usually 3am is best. The route I take is the 15 north to the 91 west and then the 5 north to the 10 west. I live in West LA.

If you reach the junction of the 15 and the 91 anytime after 4:30am you will have a ten to fifteen minute wait just to get on the 91, and then traffic will be snarled all the way to LA with early commuters.

On my last trip, I left Rincon at 3am and was home at about 5am with no delays and travel at the speed limit non stop.

Was at horseshoe indiana yesterday. Still 10 dollars per point. Of course, we have inferior paying games so they don't feel at risk.

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Originally Posted by regnis

Was at horseshoe indiana yesterday. Still 10 dollars per point. Of course, we have inferior paying games so they don't feel at risk.

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No full pay games like 9/6 jacks, 8/5 bonus?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

No full pay games like 9/6 jacks, 8/5 bonus?

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They recently reduced most of the games. There may be a couple still there but I'm not sure. I don't play JOB and I don't like that they made all the quads 150 on most bonus games. They also removed bonus from the ultimate x games and some of the other gimmicky games.

Also removed the aces and faces and all of it's variations. I liked one that was essentially aces and dueces.

Yes, Rincon even made some of the 8/5 bonus games 150 for all quads which is a sneaky way to lower the paytable.

I thought we discussed this and decided that the bonus table with all quads paying 30 was superior to the standard bonus table?? Paging Arci.

When all quads pay 175 then the pay table is superior. But at Rincon its 150 for all quads.