Do you have a "controlled throw" at craps?

A friend called me the other night to tell me that he was reading up on "dice influencing" and "dice controlling" and he told me he was interested in pursuing it.

He is an advantage poker, blackjack and video poker player, and he wanted to know if being a dice influencer or a dice controller was even possible? And if possible, can he make money at it?

Sure, I said, if you can really "control" the dice you can make money. The key to the game of casino dice or casino craps is hitting the numbers you are betting on with the dice and if you could "control" the throw (the dice) so that they hit the numbers where you have bet your money you will win.

But I doubt anyone can "control" the dice. I do think it is possible to "influence" the dice which means to increase the chances that certain numbers on the dice will show or that certain numbers on the dice won't show.

The way to "influence" the dice is to limit how many times the dice rotate while in flight and as they bounce on the table. The measure of this "influence" is seeing if the dice remain "on axis."

It's actually hard to see if the dice remain on axis unless you have a slow motion video of each roll. But one way to determine if you are at least "close" to having dice control or influence, is to check how the dice hit the table. If the dice hit the table either on a flat surface (a die face) or on an edge you have what could be a throw that just might stay on a straight course and not bounce around all over.

How do you determine if you can throw the dice so they hit on a face or edge? By throwing the dice on a table top or even on your bed that has a sheet of aluminum foil.

Grip and throw the dice so the dice are parallel to the table or bed, and they travel close together. Throw them so that their first "bounce" or "contact" is on the sheet of aluminum. Then look at the sheet of aluminum foil. The sheet of foil will tell you everything you need to know.

If the dice make an impression from the corner points then you have absolutely the wrong kind of control and you cannot influence the dice. But if the dice make an impression on the foil that shows that they hit the foil with a face or with the long line of an edge then you have something to work with in the future.

When you can repeatedly throw the dice onto the foil and only show an impression from faces or edges (and no points from corners) you have the start of a "controlled throw" or an "influenced throw."

But a vital word of caution: having a throw that gets the dice to the table this way does not mean that you will automatically have any control or influence after that initial bounce. All we are trying to determine here is if you have a proper table hit accomplished.

There are so many elements that must also must be mastered. Actually the first is the grip, then the swing of the arm, the elevation of the throw, and the speed or force so that the dice don't bounce on the table too hard and bounce off the back wall too hard.

It's all those elements combined which add up to dice influencing or dice control. It's often discussed and many make claims about it -- but few can actually accomplish it.

Alan I agree with your distinction between influencing vs control of the dice. If one can minimize the 7 after the comeout and maximize the 7 during, hence bucking the 1 out of 6 odds then he (or she) has reduced the house edge. Do I believe it can be done? Absolutely.
For me though I dont try to limit or lessen the revolutions the dice go through in the air to stay on axis. Sometimes I actually increase the spin rate based on my outcomes.

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Originally Posted by dannyj

Do I believe it can be done? Absolutely.

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There is no question that it can be done -- the only question is who can do it?

Alan, there is a reason you set the dice before every toss as do I, you must believe based on your outcomes that you are minimizing the appearance of the seven with that set and a controlled toss. Of course that doesn't guarantee that you win, but is quite different than betting on someone that just shakes the dice and chucks them.

I believe in trying. It doesn't hurt to try. But I don't claim to have any particular skill. When I ran into trouble at MGM, Bellagio and NYNY it was because I was lucky.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I believe in trying. It doesn't hurt to try. But I don't claim to have any particular skill. When I ran into trouble at MGM, Bellagio and NYNY it was because I was lucky.

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What do you mean ran into trouble? Did you get banned for having success?

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Originally Posted by dannyj

What do you mean ran into trouble? Did you get banned for having success?

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Pretty much, yes.

Alan, maybe you have more skill than you're willing to admit.

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Originally Posted by dannyj

Alan, maybe you have more skill than you're willing to admit.

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How can I say that I have skill when I get a good result?

The problem with everyone "selling" dice influencing or dice control is that they take the credit for "skill" when they have a good result, and when they have a bad result they call it "bad luck" or a bad bounce.

Yes, I set my dice using cross sixes on top, and either 3/2 or 5/4 in front. Yes, I try to throw soft and easy to the center wall where it is flat. Yes, I try to get the dice to have a soft bounce off the back wall. Do I sometimes get a "good result"? Yes. Is that because my "set" and "delivery" worked? Do I sometimes 7 out? Yes, is that because my "set" and "delivery" didn't work?

The best you can do is to follow the theory of dice influencing. And there is nothing wrong with trying. I say that in every discussion and every debate: it doesn't hurt to try.

But for those who say that they can really influence or control the dice, what I would like to see are:

1. a definition of what is dice influencing or what is dice controlling
2. a means to test whether or not dice influencing or dice controlling can be accomplished
3. the test and results of those who say they influenced or controlled the dice

What does that take? Does it take a slow motion camera that proves the dice never rotated off axis, or if they did rotate they rotated only one face? I have seen slow motion video of players who claimed to be dice influencers or dice controllers and EVERY video shows the dice bouncing around too much to indicate there was any influence or control.

Alan, I dont totally disagree with you, but when I have a good roll I do believe that part of the reason is due to set, delivery, rhythm and not "just" luck. Do I have my share of point seven outs. Yes, but I believe they are less frequent than random rollers. Can I prove this? No, but have had enough success to keep "trying" as you say. Deep down you must feel that your setting and toss must be worth doing rather than just hucking the dice down the table.

Here's the bottom line for me: the longest rolls I have ever seen or bet on were by "random shooters." That tells me that NO ONE really can influence or control dice.

With that said -- I have been at tables with those who have the set, delivery, form and throw of a dice influencer and some have had long rolls, but still not as long as some random shooters have had.

I'd like to revisit this thread and ask about how you prove dice control? I think the only way to prove it now is with a slow motion video of the actual toss and roll showing that the dice remain on axis and have limited off axis movement and bounce and roll.

I have seen videos of dice controllers and "controlled shots" but I have never seen a video that showed limited movement of the dice.

I reject that the end result of the dice proves dice control or dice influencing. The proof is in the actual movement.

And you will never see proof that the dice can even be "influenced". It's all in the mind and in the case of folks like Frank, it's all in the amount of income that can be obtained from fooled individuals.

Slow video may be able to show a controlled throw at times, which in and of itself is totally meaningless. But if they aren't thrown at the precise same speed while hitting the cones at the exact same spot every time, it's all irrelevant.

And may I offer, hustlers who sell this type of nonsense to those anxious fools who want to believe in it for whatever irrational reason, could not be happier to see ongoing.discussions like this. Even though they get ridiculed regularly for such crap, one idiot who might believe it could work is all they ask for.

Actually Rob, dice "controllers" try to roll the dice so that they come to rest against the back wall under the pyramids. This is what caused the table crew at Bellagio to go ballistic on me: I had three soft tosses in a row where the dice came to rest against the wall showing 5/4. When they insisted that the dice must bounce off the back wall and I told them there was no such rule, that they only had to hit the back wall, and the proof was right there before their eyes since the dice were leaning against the wall, World War III broke out.

But in my case it was only an accident. Never in my life could I intentionally get the dice to come to rest leaning against the back wall. But that's what happened accidentally three times in a row.

So the pyramid argument is moot. Everyone agrees that hitting the pyramids will scramble the dice.

Alan--the fact that you did it 3 times in a row, albeit accidentally, should allow for the belief that a practiced rhythmic thrower might be able to do it on a more regular basis. That doesn't mean you can do it every time. But enough to delay the 7 by enough times to become advantageous.

It is like a pitcher who can hit the corners. He can't do it every time. He is not going to throw a perfect game every time. But the more times he can hit the corners, the better the game.

In my case, I usually knew the first time I touched the dice on any given night if I was on my game. Even if I wasn't, I was still better than most random shooters. But if I was on my game, the results were good all night--not just 1 or 2 times. We would ride me until 3-4 in the morning until I started to tire. And we would go from casino to casino to avoid scrutiny. We made the rounds from Flamingo to Bally to Caesars to Maxim?? (is that what that old casino was named--I forget--had 100 x odds).

So I don't claim I can do it every throw. Just on some nights I could do it on a lot of throws.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Actually Rob, dice "controllers" try to roll the dice so that they come to rest against the back wall under the pyramids. This is what caused the table crew at Bellagio to go ballistic on me: I had three soft tosses in a row where the dice came to rest against the wall showing 5/4. When they insisted that the dice must bounce off the back wall and I told them there was no such rule, that they only had to hit the back wall, and the proof was right there before their eyes since the dice were leaning against the wall, World War III broke out.

But in my case it was only an accident. Never in my life could I intentionally get the dice to come to rest leaning against the back wall. But that's what happened accidentally three times in a row.

So the pyramid argument is moot. Everyone agrees that hitting the pyramids will scramble the dice.

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How is it moot? Hitting them is going to be required whether anyone likes it or not, and it always has. I asked that question a few years ago to the craps writer at GT, and shortly after that he wrote an article saying how hitting the cones was an unwritten rule that almost always is enforced. Even I know the rule says you must hit the back wall. No competent dealer would allow shooters to barely hit the bottom, because the rule was meant as having to hit those cones. Mincing words about it is hapless. That's why you had problems.

I disagree with regnis somewhat. Throwing "perfect" dice is not like pitching a baseball and continuously hitting the corners. Sure if you're winning you feel like you''re into a "perfect game". But it's really nothing but luck. In baseball you only need control one item. There's two dice.

Rob you are mistaken. You do not have to hit the pyramids. The way craps is played the rule is the dice must only hit the back wall. There is space below and above the pyramids on the back wall. Of course it makes more sense to hit the space below the pyramids than to aim for the flat space above the pyramids.

I have never been at a table where a dealer said the shooter must hit the pyramids.

I was surprised on my last visit to Caesars when a floorman said to a shooter that the dice must get three-quarters of the way down the table. Until then I had only heard that they want the shooter to get the dice "to the end of the table."

No Rob, no one ever said anyone must hit the pyramids.

By the way, the rules of craps in Nevada as followed by the NGC are in fact unwritten. I've written several articles about that. New Jersey does have published rules about playing craps -- Nevada does not. But a rule requiring hitting the pyramids? In more than 25 years I've never heard that.

You can see the published New Jersey rules here: http://alanbestbuys.com/id322.html

I only explain it the way I read it. As I said, craps in Nv. is guided by unwritten rules. And that makes sense--just like all the BJ rules are not all written into some regulation. If a dealer tells you to leave the table due to the way you're shooting, just accept it and move on. If it's really like you say it is out there where most tables don't care about hitting the cones, opportunity abounds. And if you want to make the cones a moot point, then how obvious is it that nobody can shoot the same way more often than not, and not even a dice-controlling robot could make the outcome any more predictable. Why do you think the experts at the Wizard's site regularly ridicule the fantasy? I'm with them on this one.

Why are the cones there? For looks? Absolutely not--they were designed so dice can bounce off of them. And that makes complete sense too, just as I read about them.

One time I was at the Gold Coast for no reason other than they had a $1.00 hot dog. Wandered over to the craps table and there was a handicapped woman in a chair breathing out of a straw at the table. She wanted to throw the dice and they felt compelled to let her. The dice only went a few feet--nowhere near the wall, and she was rolling 6 after 6. I always wondered if it was a setup. We made some good $$ on that roll.

regnis I've seen the same thing several times: there was the player in a wheel chair who was actually sitting well below the table and his dice went about half way down the table -- no trouble from the casino staff. there was the elderly man who even set his dice but never hit the back wall... no heat at all. It's actually arbitrary who gets the heat and who doesn't.

If you look like a random shooter they won't care if you hit the back wall or not. But if you look like you're there to empty the table bank, they'll give you heat.

Rob, no one disputes that the pyramids are there to scramble the dice. But you don't have to hit the pyramids. Why don't you play the game and report back to us about the space around the pyramids that you can just as easily aim for?

I'm more interested in what it is that attracts people to play craps. It seems like a no-win scenario, and to add insult to injury, it's not even a private game where you can play at your own speed w/o any others in your business. You also can't keep away from the sneezers & coughers, the bad breath, and you have no choice but to put up with the attention-seekers and loud-mouthed dufeses. And them dirty, germy dice. Who knows what the people who touch them have touched recently, and if you're shooting them, are you ever wiping your eyes, touching your mouth, or scratching the inside of your nose? It reminds me of the fools who inadvertantly stick the remotes in their mouths as they watch TV from their hotel room bed.

It's gross all around at a craps table. Bad odds, bad hygiene, and the occasional bad people.

Rob-I don't disagree with a lot of what you said. In my case, they always reserved 3 spots for me so I had some room and avoided the sneezers, coughers etc. The rest unfortunately still applied. But there is nothing like the rush of a good roll. And 1 good roll can carry you for a whole year. So high risk but high reward. Can't get that rush from any other game.

Well put regnis. For me there is nothing in the casino that matches the rush of a good roll, whether I am shooting or someone else. Having said that, there have been many times when I didnt care for the crowd at the table for various reasons, so when the hand was over so was I.

As far as the germy dice, I think the cheques are worse, at least the dice get retired at least daily in most joints. And, along with frequent, thorough hand washes i try to never go to my face with my fingertips. Same thing goes with VP.

What are cheques?

Cheques is a fancy word for chips.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I'm more interested in what it is that attracts people to play craps. ...
It's gross all around at a craps table. Bad odds, bad hygiene, and the occasional bad people.

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I like that it is a community game. You get on a hot table and everyone is hi-5ing and cheering. Nothing better.

The other appeal about craps is that a small budget can last a long time and it is possible to easily double up your bankroll. Like all gambling greed kills.

I guess I understand the fascination. But I'd rather be at such a table with a bunch of different dog breeds than a collection of degenerate gamblers.

Now that I understand cheques, where did the name craps come from? Anything to do with real crap?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I'd rather be at such a table with a bunch of different dog breeds than a collection of degenerate gamblers.

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I wrote here in a different thread that I actually consider craps to be a game of skill. And that skill is influencing the dice. Of course, few have that skill, and fewer still have a skill that is "good enough" to be worth your money in the form of a bet. But it is a game of skill.

Now, I also consider video poker to be a game of skill, but craps does not have a "random number generator" to get in the way of the shooter's skill. What happens to the dice is decided by the skill of the shooter, and that includes avoiding the pyramids or how the dice react with the pyramids.

In video poker you can be an expert in strategy, but the impact of your strategy ends as soon as you push the draw button and the RNG pulls the replacement cards.

In craps, the roll of the dice is solely dependent on how the shooter throws them.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I guess I understand the fascination. But I'd rather be at such a table with a bunch of different dog breeds than a collection of degenerate gamblers.

Now that I understand cheques, where did the name craps come from? Anything to do with real crap?

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Rob-often times you are right about the group at a craps table. But other times you can have a great group of people and a lot of fun. In the first case--just go to another table if you don't like the group.

We used to have a reserved table locally for about 15 guys. No one else was allowed to play at that table. There never was a night (or day) that all 15 were there at once so you could always get in, and sometimes it sat empty for hours with a whole crew standing there doing nothing. But one night they hit them for over a million dollars and they stopped reserving the game after that. Unfortunately, I was not there that night. Since they don't reserve the table any more all the big players have gone elsewhere and they can't win back the million from that group.