Seven Stars Renewal Event VS Diamond... Cue The Laugh Track

So a lot of angry Seven Stars players (and whales) at the renewal gift event today, and for good reason.

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For the Diamond renewal event, players picked up a booklet containing:

3 $25 Dining Credit Coupons ($300 total) for each property (Showboat, Bally's, Caesars & Harrah's)

1 Diamond Lounge pass for two

2 Complimentary Buffet Coupons for each property (Harrah's, Caesar's, Showboat)

4 Complimentary Drink "up to 2 people" coupons for each property (Showboat, Bally's, Caesars, & Harrah's)

3 $50 Spa Credit Coupons (1 Caesars Qua Bath & Spa, 1 Showboat Vive Day & Salon, 1 Bally's Spa Services)

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If you were Seven Stars and you showed up, you were denied and told to pick up your Seven Stars renewal gift on the 25th.

So that's today! And everyone gets... a Vera Wang picture frame that you can buy on eBay for $25. And also two complimentary cocktails! And a wristband for the cocktail reception!

One high roller (orange-chipper) who I play with a lot at the baccarat table slammed his gift into an ATM and stormed off. One woman mentioned she had lost a million playing slots and she "waited in line for this sh!t" (exact quote).

Good job Caesars.

And you people continue to allow yourselves to be roped in to play at their properties over & over & over again. It's like being humiliated by your lover, then going back for more because you just can't get enuf and writhe in pain over the thought of moving on for the better good. My my my....

Well, that's better than we get on the west coast. There is neither a Diamond nor Seven Stars renewal event out here.

I guess that's one way to prevent people from feeling insulted.

It does appear from your story that Caesar's is trying harder to woo the Diamond players (feeling that they have the potential to play a whole lot, but aren't quite there yet), and are neglecting the Seven Stars, feeling they are already married to CET.

It's kind of like the wife who stops having much sex with her husband because she feels he won't leave her no matter what.

And they're probably right. In a vacuum, it probably is more cost-effective to aim promotions at the gamblers who are more on-the-fence about regularly coming to your properties.

However, the problem here is twofold:

1) Everyone is grouped either as "Diamond" or "Seven Stars", so there are two distinct groups, and this is not done on a case-by-case basis.

2) People talk to one another and find out what the other group got.

So when the higher group finds that they got a fraction of the promotion given to the lower group, all hell breaks lose.

Typical idiotic Caesar's not seeing the entire picture before acting.

They got the concept right, but failed to realize that this only works via individual direct marketing, and not by card status group.

And of course, there's the other problem, and that's the whole concept of Seven Stars.

Seven Stars is awarded to you based upon what you've done in the (semi-recent) past.

Hosts comp you based upon what you're doing in the present and what you're likely to do in the future.

So this creates a weird situation, where hosts get to resent certain Seven Stars who "aren't playing enough recently", and avoid doing anything for them. At the same time, these hosts are very generous to Platinum and Diamond players who are showing the willingness to play on every trip.

These players card programs are just too contradictory for what the casino is really trying to accomplish (only comp the players who are going to regularly and continuously play), and I wonder if they will be heavily modified or done away with over the next few years.

There was a Seven Stars/Diamond renewal event at Harrah 's Rincon.
Everyone got .....
Wait for it

A pair of Sunglasses
(And I waited in line for this?)

It's true players talk to one another. And if Diamond players find they get more
By staying Diamond, then becoming Seven Stars, then why would they play more?
Smart move Gary Loveman.

I don't understand: isn't Rincon considered as being on the West Coast??

CET isn't manipulating Diamonds to become Seven Stars with cheap gifts and smiles--not at all. Why? Because for the most part, they can't. It takes a fortune worth of play to go from Diamond to SS, and the vast majority of Diamond players either can't afford the huge amount of play, or they have little interest in going to and staying around casinos as much as it takes to hit the top. Since I received my SS card after the high limit binge I went on, I've been getting as much of the CET junk mail and online hook offers as the rest of SS nation, but none of it makes my palms sweat like the rest of you because to me it's all about winning--and not the stupid consolation prizes. And this talk about how "oh so special" the hosts are....the hosts are a big part of the problem you're all crying about, for God's sake. Wake up. The more a SS player digs in , the more they'll end up abused. Just read this forum for proof.

Just for the record, I completely agree with Rob. Debating the minutia of Seven Stars versus Diamond in terms of gambling smart is like debating the nutritional qualities of McDonald's breakfast versus their lunch in terms of eating smart. One can squeeze all of the relative advantages one can out of the process, but the process itself is absurd and a waste of time. In CET, you are dealing with the company that has done more to ruin the odds of gambling and comp rates of gambling than any other company in existence except, in the case of comps, Adelson's.

I would hope the hosts are more willing to accommodate requests from seven stars than Diamond players. I've asked my host to comp me $150 to take friends to Margaretville or the steak houses, and other restaurants and show tickets in the past and they are usually willing to help. Often I don't seek them out, I just ask when they find me and ask if I need anything. I am a seven stars level II for now which I don't expect to maintain. My free play coupons have been cut drastically. Some free play offers now have hurdles like $100 free play + another $20 for earning 1200 tier credits + another $80 for earning another 600 tier credits in the same day. The monthly VIP gift giveaways where you could optionally take 15,000 reward credits have been cut. This weekend was the VIP giveaway was bread maker or 7500 reward credits or earn 1000 tier credits in on the day and get an upgraded bread maker or 12,500 tier credits.

BTW, got first VP Royal Flush at HorseShoe Southern Indiana Friday night after about 120,000 tries. It was for 40k on a $10 credit machine (I had never played $10 credits before) and did it in about the first 10 minutes of play.

Congratulations on the royal. That's a long time to go between them. However, you're taking a chance around here talking about $40k wins. I enjoy hearing about them, but those who constantly lose don't. If you post a picture and have thin skin, make sure your camera's date is set exact. Then show proof of the casino, your travel documents that prove it was you who went there, be certain you & your DL are in the same picture as the royal along with the true W2G, show proof that you were using YOUR money when you were playing, and show court documents swearing that you didn't lose it all and more after you hit it. Then, when you've completely frustrated the few remaining doubters & haters here, you may laugh at and make constant fun of them.

One more thing, and this is for Alan. Change the 10 minutes to ten hours. He doesn't believe anyone can hit big wins in so little time.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Just for the record, I completely agree with Rob. Debating the minutia of Seven Stars versus Diamond in terms of gambling smart is like debating the nutritional qualities of McDonald's breakfast versus their lunch in terms of eating smart. One can squeeze all of the relative advantages one can out of the process, but the process itself is absurd and a waste of time. In CET, you are dealing with the company that has done more to ruin the odds of gambling and comp rates of gambling than any other company in existence except, in the case of comps, Adelson's.

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Great answer.

Yes even if you need prescription glasses for distance you. At RINCON diamond renewal you received a pair of non-prescription sunglasses. I asked if that had anything that I could use like clip-ons for people with prescription glasses and they said NO. So I guess I know what I will be re-gifting.

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Originally Posted by supermaxhd

I would hope the hosts are more willing to accommodate requests from seven stars than Diamond players. I've asked my host to comp me $150 to take friends to Margaretville or the steak houses, and other restaurants and show tickets in the past and they are usually willing to help. Often I don't seek them out, I just ask when they find me and ask if I need anything. I am a seven stars level II for now which I don't expect to maintain. My free play coupons have been cut drastically. Some free play offers now have hurdles like $100 free play + another $20 for earning 1200 tier credits + another $80 for earning another 600 tier credits in the same day. The monthly VIP gift giveaways where you could optionally take 15,000 reward credits have been cut. This weekend was the VIP giveaway was bread maker or 7500 reward credits or earn 1000 tier credits in on the day and get an upgraded bread maker or 12,500 tier credits.

BTW, got first VP Royal Flush at HorseShoe Southern Indiana Friday night after about 120,000 tries. It was for 40k on a $10 credit machine (I had never played $10 credits before) and did it in about the first 10 minutes of play.

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Glad to hear about your royal. I've never hit one, though I also haven't played 120,000 hands.

Just to let you know, hosts don't care what level you are when deciding what to comp you. If you are gold and been playing regularly, they will comp you. If you are Seven Stars and have been staying recently and not playing, they won't.

Your TR level means nothing to hosts, aside from the things they are required to do for you in order to support the program (such as get you the $500 celebration dinner voucher once per year).

Question: When you got the $150 comp for the steakhouse, did you have RCs at the time? Did you check your RCs after getting it? In general, hosts are instructed to burn your RCs before comping you.

Sorry for paying attention to details that don't make sense--for which Dan likes to call me a "troll":)--but if Dan doesn't play the limits I do, how in the world can he say he is & has been Seven Stars, and has NOT played 120,000 hands?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Glad to hear about your royal. I've never hit one, though I also haven't played 120,000 hands.

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You are very overdue for a royal, Dan. Hope you find a nice +EV (or even a fun 99%+) progressive meter machine and nab at least one big satisfying hit from it ASAP.

Once you find your first royal you will viscerally understand why we enjoy playing the VP machines.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Sorry for paying attention to details that don't make sense--for which Dan likes to call me a "troll":)--but if Dan doesn't play the limits I do, how in the world can he say he is & has been Seven Stars, and has NOT played 120,000 hands?

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Easy.

I have only been Seven Stars since 2012.

I haven't played this year.

In 2012, you needed 100,000 base tier credits to make Seven Stars (no bonus tiers).

In 2013, you needed 50,000 base tier credits to make Seven Stars (and you would get 100,000 bonus tiers to make up for the rest, if played optimally.)

That makes 150,000 base tiers.

Each tier credit represents $10 in coin-in at VP.

That means I've put in $1.5 million in coin-in.

Divide $1.5 million by $25 per hand (since I play the $5 machines almost exclusively), and you get 60,000 hands played.

There you go. I also didn't earn all of my tier credits on VP, but I won't bother to factor that in.

I have been comped for $150 at the steakhouse at Horseshoe Southern Indiana when I asked and I had a lot of reward credits available. I once got a comp for $150 at Margaritaville in Cincinnati when I asked. My Cincinnati host called me for my birthday for dinner for 2 at the Cincinnati SteakHouse. I don't think I have ever been turned down but I don't ask that often. Horseshoe Cincinnati has a 'host desk' where you can go ask. When I took my annual retreat back in January my Cincinnati host was able to get me a second room comped in advance at Caesars Palace. Upon checkout from my annual retreat I asked the on duty host to consider my play there for the remainder of my balance at checkout. They took my reward credits for that.

Will a large win influence the offers I get or what I can ask for?

or $500,000 coin for VP in if you optimize the tier credit bonuses. When 9/6 JOB still existed the expected loss was about $2300 for seven stars, I expect it is much higher than that now.

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Originally Posted by supermaxhd

I have been comped for $150 at the steakhouse at Horseshoe Southern Indiana when I asked and I had a lot of reward credits available. I once got a comp for $150 at Margaritaville in Cincinnati when I asked. My Cincinnati host called me for my birthday for dinner for 2 at the Cincinnati SteakHouse. I don't think I have ever been turned down but I don't ask that often. Horseshoe Cincinnati has a 'host desk' where you can go ask. When I took my annual retreat back in January my Cincinnati host was able to get me a second room comped in advance at Caesars Palace. Upon checkout from my annual retreat I asked the on duty host to consider my play there for the remainder of my balance at checkout. They took my reward credits for that.

Will a large win influence the offers I get or what I can ask for?

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Large wins will not hurt you.

They compute how "valuable" you are as a customer by "expected losses" based upon your RECENT coin-in and expected losses based upon that coin-in. Hosts will do a lot for you if you are playing a lot and frequently. They will do nothing for you if either your play is very light, mostly in the past, or you have been staying without playing much recently.

Another big factor is how many comps of ANY KIND you have used lately, with the exception of:

- Freeplay coupons (hosts don't see when you use those, but the Total Rewards computer generating them does)
- RC redemptions (those are ignored when computing what comps you've redeemed, because they were already "earned" and banked)
- Total Rewards Airline tickets, whether obtained through the Seven Stars annual trip or promotions. (However, they WILL count airline tickets against you if you just ask your host for them, if they're not associated with any offer or benefit.)

So every time you use a free hotel room, it's considered a comp. Every time a host writes you a voucher for free meal, it's considered a comp. Every time your host gives you free show tickets, it's considered a comp. If they use your RCs for these things, it's not considered a comp, but you lose RCs, which have real value.

Anyway, once recent comps have exceeded what they feel you're "entitled" to based upon recent play, then they will refuse to do anything for you. This is lousy, because if you played a ton last year, barely used any comps, and then slowed down and stopped playing, you won't get "credit" for what you did before, beyond the RCs you earned. That's why it's good to bank RCs unless you're a very consistent player.

Of course, this also varies from host to host. Some are extremely tight with comps, while others will do things for you even when your recent play doesn't justify it.

Supermaxhd, it sounds like you play enough to justify ongoing comps, as you must not be using more than you're earning. They are technically supposed to be taking your RCs first before giving you steakhouse comps, but hosts are granted leeway in this so as to not piss off the good customers.

Getting a second room is actually fairly easy if you are playing regularly. Even I was able to squeeze some second rooms out of them in 2012 and 2013, but they have tightened up on this somewhat, and now scrutinize if your account justifies it. Apparently yours still does, but mine doesn't at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by supermaxhd

or $500,000 coin for VP in if you optimize the tier credit bonuses. When 9/6 JOB still existed the expected loss was about $2300 for seven stars, I expect it is much higher than that now.

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Yeah, the $1.5 million I referred to was for COMBINED 2012 and 2013. It was $1 million for 2012, and $500,000 for 2013.

As I mentioned on a different thread, I realized recently that you can play EVERY OTHER YEAR once you're a Seven Stars, provided you earn Seven Stars back in the first 3 months of the next year, and you will never lose the status.

So let's say you earned Seven Stars in 2013.

You will also have it in 2014, no matter what you do, so you don't play at all.

Then, in 2015, you play 150k tiers before April 1, and you will get it renewed until April 1, 2017 (without your status ever expiring).

Then, in 2016 you don't play at all.

Then you again earn it in the beginning of 2017, and that lasts until April 1, 2019, etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Easy.

I have only been Seven Stars since 2012.

I haven't played this year.

In 2012, you needed 100,000 base tier credits to make Seven Stars (no bonus tiers).

In 2013, you needed 50,000 base tier credits to make Seven Stars (and you would get 100,000 bonus tiers to make up for the rest, if played optimally.)

That makes 150,000 base tiers.

Each tier credit represents $10 in coin-in at VP.

That means I've put in $1.5 million in coin-in.

Divide $1.5 million by $25 per hand (since I play the $5 machines almost exclusively), and you get 60,000 hands played.

There you go. I also didn't earn all of my tier credits on VP, but I won't bother to factor that in.

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Dan, you might think you can get your BS by the others here--including Spock, who is lurking on this thread as we speak with burning ears, but he will not humiliate you because I'm here--but you'll never get it by the common sense experts.

So you claim to have just "jumped into" video poker on the $5 machines....while you're also someone who's on record as griping vehemently at Caesars for not giving you free Gatorade or some other crazy complaint. Then you spend hour after hour moaning and groaning about cutbacks and cruise nonsense, that someone who is a beginner at vp would have no problem spending his own money on. And then you expect anyone would believe you suddenly stopped playing as soon as you got your special card? With the overwhelming amount of cruise details you espouse about saving a penny here and a nickel there when you're not criticizing them? Come on, man!

You're as easy to see through as Dancer and his divorce and subsequent odd behavior that could only result from low remaining assets. People who play $5 limits "almost exclusively" never gripe about a dollar here and a dollar there. I don't expect to see you say how many hands you think you've REALLY played. But at least if you're gonna try and make it look like you don't play much and take huge baths at Harrahs in doing so, you need to start controlling what you say in other threads & posts.

Just a couple of comments which may or may not fit previous posts in this thread:

1. I never play for comps. If the comps come I take those that I want and will not complain about comps I can't use... such as cruises.

2. Yes, my comps $$ value has dropped dramatically over the past couple of years but at the same time my "play" has declined and my "wins" have increased.

3. Yes, Rob, I have hit big winners in the first couple of minutes of play including quad Aces on Royal Aces Bonus and even Royals. I hit two progressive royals at Caesars ($24K Bonus and $21K Jacks) only five hands apart (but that was about 9 years ago).

4. Playing 9/5 Jacks or 8/5 Bonus the "cost" of becoming 7Stars is about $8,000 and in my case this year I scored 7Stars at a profit because of an $8,000 royal.

5. Yes, the casinos are getting skimpier with comps and this is not a new trend, and it certainly would be better if they didn't... but that's business.

6. Rob, you must also be a 7Stars player with your play... and you must also be at the highest tier at other casino companies' players clubs. And you haven't noticed what's going on with these "reward programs"? And why would you criticize others for noticing the changes? Of course, it wouldn't surprise me that you throw the players clubs mailers in the trash without opening them and you... and only you... refuse to accept free plays and fee shopping trips because they would violate your mantra not to do things that the casino wants you to do. In which case you should claim the free play and the shopping sprees and donate them to a charity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Dan, you might think you can get your BS by the others here--including Spock, who is lurking on this thread as we speak with burning ears, but he will not humiliate you because I'm here--but you'll never get it by the common sense experts.

So you claim to have just "jumped into" video poker on the $5 machines....while you're also someone who's on record as griping vehemently at Caesars for not giving you free Gatorade or some other crazy complaint. Then you spend hour after hour moaning and groaning about cutbacks and cruise nonsense, that someone who is a beginner at vp would have no problem spending his own money on. And then you expect anyone would believe you suddenly stopped playing as soon as you got your special card? With the overwhelming amount of cruise details you espouse about saving a penny here and a nickel there when you're not criticizing them? Come on, man!

You're as easy to see through as Dancer and his divorce and subsequent odd behavior that could only result from low remaining assets. People who play $5 limits "almost exclusively" never gripe about a dollar here and a dollar there. I don't expect to see you say how many hands you think you've REALLY played. But at least if you're gonna try and make it look like you don't play much and take huge baths at Harrahs in doing so, you need to start controlling what you say in other threads & posts.

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I don't know if you're stupid or just trolling.

I "jumped into" the $5 video poker because it allowed me to get to 2500 tier credits within 2 hours or so each day, thus earning me 5000 bonus tiers. Doing this on 20 different days will get me Seven Stars status, at which point I don't have to play for another 2 years, while I can lap up all the perks.

I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.

I didn't play $1 because that would have required 10 hours of play to do the same, and I don't love VP that much to spend 10 hours in a single day doing it.

And if you really believe I am trying to save "a penny here and a nickel there", then you should totally believe that I quit playing once I got to Seven Stars.

Also, Rob, while I initially took your various criticisms of Dancer seriously, I have rapidly been dismissing pretty much everything you've said about him, because the rest of your posts are so full of contradictions, trolling, and unfair assessments.

You seem to lack the ability to think critically, or you are doing this on purpose to get a rise out of people.

Either way, it's hard to believe anything you say.

Dan you just admitted that you played for comps and at a game you don't "love too much." Do you at least enjoy it?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan you just admitted that you played for comps and at a game you don't "love too much." Do you at least enjoy it?

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I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

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Whenever you start playing VP again, just let us know here on the forum when you eventually find that first royal (or A-C-E-$ or quad A's with kicker). Always a thrill to be savored!

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

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Since you never hit a royal, or ACE$, I have to assume that you are a net loser at video poker. You should not be playing video poker. Concentrate on live poker and forget about the "comps chase" because I doubt it really is working out for you as a "professional gambler." Pro gamblers would not do what you are doing.

Leave the "comp chase" to the rest of us schmendricks who are playing for entertainment...and even we entertainment players should know better than to play for comps.

What Dan is doing in terms of acquiring Seven Stars as efficiently as possible to reduce WSOP costs has been done by many poker players going back at least eight or nine years, including big names. I'm sure it's common for poker pros and almost-pros to debate and discuss the details each year.

What needs to be mentioned, of course, is that the expenses of playing in the WSOP and the way players are treated -- no comped rooms just for playing in it, no comped food, paying for valet, and so on -- are the direct result of CET taking over the enterprise. Thirty years ago, players were treated like something special. Now they're treated like fools and addicts.

I know several people who make playing in the WSOP a part of their career. They rent a house for the month. It costs a lot less than the $8,000 it costs to become a 7 Stars player.

If his goal is to have lower costs for the WSOP I think reaching 7 Stars is not the way to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I know several people who make playing in the WSOP a part of their career. They rent a house for the month. It costs a lot less than the $8,000 it costs to become a 7 Stars player.

If his goal is to have lower costs for the WSOP I think reaching 7 Stars is not the way to do it.

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First off, you are correct that I am a net loser in video poker. But could I have predicted that I would hit zero Royals on my path to Seven Stars? No. That's just how it fell for me. Giving me a hard time for losing more than expected on the way to Seven Stars would be like me giving you a hard time for taking a specific trip to Rincon and losing that night. I could ask, "Why did you go there if you were going to lose?", and your (valid) response would be, "I had no way to tell whether it was going to be a losing night or a winning night until I played."

I can only go by the expected loss to get to Seven Stars. I might beat it and actually win (like if I had hit even one royal), or I might go the other way and lose more than expected. But the only basis I can use as to whether or not it's worth it is by the amount it costs me versus the amount I then get out of it.

Second, I prefer to stay at the Rio during the WSOP. It is WAY more convenient.

Third, I don't know where you're getting $8000.

On a 99.17% expectation bonus poker machine, you can reach Seven Stars with an average loss of $4150.

On a higher expectation machine such as ACE$, your average loss expectation is $3000.

There is admittedly a lot of variance, but that's the average house take on 150,000 tier credits (if bonus tiers are acquired optimally) with perfect play.

Some of this loss is also negated by freeplay and RCs earned during the play.

Also, based upon the trick I recently realized, I can get TWO years of Seven Stars out of it, rather than just one.

Given that I use the cruise, the annual trips (including 2 in 2013), the GGWU, the freeplay, the gas card promotions, and many hotel rooms (often when I'm not playing at all), I am getting plenty out of my "investment" in earning Seven Stars. Indeed, I was told that I am "overcomped" and way past what a player of my activity level would normally be entitled to.

Also, Alan, just because I don't enjoy VP as much as you doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it at all. Like you, I enjoy the excitement of trying to hit those big payouts, and the anticipation of drawing that elusive 5th card to the royal. It's something I wouldn't want to do every day, or for many hours straight, but I enjoy it enough to where I have a good time doing it.

It is possible to both be an advantage player AND enjoy what you're doing at the same time.

Of course it would have been nice to have run better and hit a royal during my play, but I chalk that up to the same bad luck as when I lose badly at regular poker. Sometimes you run better than expected, and other times you run worse.

Now I'll say this.

If God himself came down last year and said, "Todd, when you play video poker this year, you aren't going to hit any royals, and you're going to run far below expectation", would I have still played and earned Seven Stars?

No. But there was no way to know that.

Similarly, if God told me in 2009 or 2012 that I was going to only cash in one event in the World Series of Poker each of those years, I also wouldn't have bothered playing. But I don't have God telling me my gambling results in advance, and neither does anyone here (except maybe Rob Singer, apparently).

I can only go by, "Given the expected loss, and how much I will use the benefits I get, will this be worth it for me?"

If the answer is yes, then I did the right thing by playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

First off, you are correct that I am a net loser in video poker. But could I have predicted that I would hit zero Royals on my path to Seven Stars? No. That's just how it fell for me. Giving me a hard time for losing more than expected on the way to Seven Stars would be like me giving you a hard time for taking a specific trip to Rincon and losing that night. I could ask, "Why did you go there if you were going to lose?", and your (valid) response would be, "I had no way to tell whether it was going to be a losing night or a winning night until I played."

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No. I don't go to any casino with the intention of winning because I am a recreational player and only a recreational player. I go to have some fun... and the thrills of playing whether it be video poker and craps. I play with a limited, controlled amount of money -- money I deem appropriate for this form of entertainment. I do not have plans or desire to make it a career, nor do I think I can make it a career.

If I really wanted to make money, I could guarantee myself a profit selling covered calls in the stock market.

I certainly have a desire to win when I play, and for that reason I play the best games at the best strategy, but my life will not come apart if I don't. And heaven knows I haven't been a long term winner at casino games. Yet, I have certainly had my share of fun and enjoyment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I can only go by, "Given the expected loss, and how much I will use the benefits I get, will this be worth it for me?"

If the answer is yes, then I did the right thing by playing.

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This is where Rob Singer is right: this attitude makes you a victim of the casinos. You cannot justify losses because of the benefits you receive because the benefits will never match the value of your losses.

Let me repeat that: THE BENEFITS YOU RECEIVE WILL NEVER MATCH THE VALUE OF YOUR LOSSES.

I personally, do not care much about 7 Stars status, because only appealing benefit to me is an annual trip... now, when airline prices went up, but trip still covers only $1, 200 and all difficulties you need to go through to arrange your air tickets that 7 stars “Elite” status really does not hold much benefit to me... if I will reach it-fine, if not –why should I care?

Honestly, I would not be visiting AC CET's properties much at all if I would not have friends living in the area I love to spend time with, but as many other players I am recently looking for a better deals from other casinos.Will be kind of sad to become ‘EX” CET customer after being in CET program for almost 15 years...but CET management/ accountants should understand customer needs better... customer LOYALITY is based on what CET have to OFFER to me...

As I said I do not care much about the status , but some people, whale players especially DO (or DID???) care.....now-closer to the point....

It was very unpleasant trip-2 CETs property I visited was packed indeed... with a lot of unhappy Seven Stars players who came for the renewal /gift event...horrible atmosphere to play...very negative.

That is a list of complains I heard:

"Vera Wong frame? Seriously?"

"$65 ticket to Jay Leno? Last raw in the theater? What a joke!"

"Food at the cocktail party made my stomach upset!" (cursing)-yes, it was some REAL cursing)...

Some people were going to complain to their casino hosts (poor hosts, I feel sorry for you to take all the hit from upset 7 Stars) .

What else people complained about?

Easy to guess-Horrible changes in videopoker:

“1 point for $25 in?”

“Progressive video poker removed...why???”

“New machines are not random!!!!(Especially on Saturday, xaxa)”

“They (read CET) took all fun away from gambling! Now I feel that it is a job-work for points instead of having fun!!!”

“Diamond members are treated better!!!!”

“They think we are so addicted that will come back does not matter what..."

“I will not come back...”

“I will not too” and so on!


Will they come back?

What is your bet???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If I really wanted to make money, I could guarantee myself a profit selling covered calls in the stock market.

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Alan: There are still two distinct risks here with covered calls:

a) The underlying stock declines in value by an amount greater than the contract premium you collected

b) Your underlying stock goes way up in price. Once beyond the strike price + your collected premium you're missing out on the gains beyond that level.

Options are a wonderful tool, to be sure, but there's still no free lunch I'm afraid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

This is where Rob Singer is right: this attitude makes you a victim of the casinos. You cannot justify losses because of the benefits you receive because the benefits will never match the value of your losses.

Let me repeat that: THE BENEFITS YOU RECEIVE WILL NEVER MATCH THE VALUE OF YOUR LOSSES.

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How can you say that? Have you done the calculations?

Would you be saying the same thing if I hit a royal for 20k last year and was up overall in VP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

How can you say that? Have you done the calculations?

Would you be saying the same thing if I hit a royal for 20k last year and was up overall in VP?

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Not to butt in on this chat, but I think the more accurate statement would be the "value of your comps will never exceed your THEORETICAL losses"

With everyone complaining about the reduced comps and other ways in which Caesars has lowered their service and general treatment of customers, why do you keep giving them your business. The only way to speak to the gorilla is financially--don't give them your money.

Churchill Downs just opened on Saturday. They are the Caesars of horse racing. They have instituted an increased "takeout" (basically their hold on every bet) this year. On win Place and Show bets, the takeout has been raised from 16% to 17%. That is an increase of over 9%.

On exotic bets, the takeout has been raised from 19% to 22%, an increase 0f over 15%.

So as not to get overly technical, the increased takeout reduces the payout on every winning bet. It's like reducing Bonus Poker to 6-5.

But we horseplayers are trying to unify to let them know that this is unacceptable. We are boycotting Churchill Downs. We will not bet their races. Some of us, including me, will bet the Derby this weekend because the gigantic handle inflated by novices makes it one of the three best days to bet and receive value. But we will not bet Churchill Downs the rest of the year.

This tactic did work several years ago at the California tracks that tried to impose a similar increase.


SO STOP GIVING CAESARS YOUR DOLLARS. Otherwise, you shouldn't complain.

Let me give my explanation for my continued patronage of Caesars:

1. It's the best deal I can get. If I moved to another casino company it would take me at least a year of heavy play to work up to the what I have from Caesars now. Using Dan Druff's formula -- even without any play I am 7 Stars through March 31 of 2016.

2. I've run into "trouble" playing at several MGM properties and I would not enjoy playing certain games at those properties because of the "heat."

3. I really like what I get at Caesars -- the hotel, the restaurants, the shows, the total environment.

Now, regnis makes a good point and indeed I have altered how I play at the Las Vegas properties and I have cut back on video poker play dramatically, and in fact I am 7 Stars because of my play at Rincon with its fullpay games and not because of my play in Vegas.

After my "drop in visit" to the Rio on Monday when I turned $500 of free play into $1,132 of "take home cash" I received a call from a host at the Rio who asked if I'd like to return for another visit? I said "no" because they changed the video poker dramatically since I was there a couple of months ago and I have no interest in returning there. A couple of months ago I played $1 8/5 Bonus and on Monday I played $1 7/5 Bonus which is what they have at Caesars. At Rincon they have 8/5 Bonus and Aces and Faces even at the 25-cent level.

I said to the host -- if you want me back there give me a good free play offer that would make me go back there. Next time I get a $500 free play certificate I could just as easily use it at Caesars or Flamingo or Planet Ho.

Alan, glad you spoke up about the VP degradation at Rio.

Maybe if enough people tell them to go suck an egg when they "invite" them back to play 7/5 Bonus, things will change back to what they were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Alan, glad you spoke up about the VP degradation at Rio.

Maybe if enough people tell them to go suck an egg when they "invite" them back to play 7/5 Bonus, things will change back to what they were.

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From time to time, I am invited to have dinner with a top exec at CET. I won't identify them here, but it is a private dinner -- just the two of us. I am picked because of being a 7Stars player but I also think it has to do with my business -- it never hurts to talk to a guy in the media who also happens to be quoted in the LVRJ from time to time on casino matters.

I mention this because during a dinner about a year ago I mentioned to a high level exec that his pay tables on VP sucked. And as a result his machines were empty, including in the high limit room. I said to him something like this: even if you had so-called full-pay machines you would still make a profit off of them. Now, you have a lot of machines with empty seats and zero revenue. Well, he looked like me like I was talking Martian. I really think the bean counters have absolutely no knowledge of marketing or even how to run a casino.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

From time to time, I am invited to have dinner with a top exec at CET. I won't identify them here, but it is a private dinner -- just the two of us. I am picked because of being a 7Stars player but I also think it has to do with my business -- it never hurts to talk to a guy in the media who also happens to be quoted in the LVRJ from time to time on casino matters.

I mention this because during a dinner about a year ago I mentioned to a high level exec that his pay tables on VP sucked. And as a result his machines were empty, including in the high limit room. I said to him something like this: even if you had so-called full-pay machines you would still make a profit off of them. Now, you have a lot of machines with empty seats and zero revenue. Well, he looked like me like I was talking Martian. I really think the bean counters have absolutely no knowledge of marketing or even how to run a casino.

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Good story, Alan. That actually makes a lot of sense for a large casino company because of the multiple management layers. I'm wondering if it had been more fruitful to discuss the paytables with the slot manager, instead. The high-level execs probably would be more focused on the general operations of the casino rather than the very specifics of only a few games with a niche interest (ie. the VP games we like to play).

I never met a slot manager at any casino... though shortly after NYNY opened the slot manager came around to greet players. Unfortunately back then I was not a VP player and I was talking to him about seeding higher paying slot machines in high profile positions on the casino floor to attract attention.

Since then I found out that higher paying slots are deliberately put in positions that force players to walk through more of the casino to get to them.

I of course second regnis' position about playing @ CET if you have so many complaints about them like several do here. I'll play at them because I have NO complaints, but if I had a few gripes, I'd let my feet do the talking instead of crying about them somewhere where they couldn't care less about.

Alan, you absolutely CAN play--and enjoy playing--at so many other LV casinos. CET's number one draw by far is in its huge variety of places to stay across the country. But you don't use that. Its worst overall benefit are those stupid cruises, and you don't use those either. So you definitely should stop telling yourself no other places measure up. Here's why: it is very easy to bring your top tier card into any other casino and request their top tier card in return for you making it your new "home base casino". Why you continue to list the weaker reasons for needing to stay with CET is a mystery. You will never get more, only less, from them. The same goes for Dan. There are, except for the countrywide coverage, MUCH better properties and casinos with better amenities out there.

Rob: I cannot play craps at Bellagio, NYNY or MGM comfortably after my "incidents" there. At some other casinos in Vegas I cannot play because I have done consulting work for them. But since I don't "live in casinos" the few times a year I go to Caesars is enough for me, thank you.

And you do owe me lunch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I of course second regnis' position about playing @ CET if you have so many complaints about them like several do here. I'll play at them because I have NO complaints, but if I had a few gripes, I'd let my feet do the talking instead of crying about them somewhere where they couldn't care less about.

Alan, you absolutely CAN play--and enjoy playing--at so many other LV casinos. CET's number one draw by far is in its huge variety of places to stay across the country. But you don't use that. Its worst overall benefit are those stupid cruises, and you don't use those either. So you definitely should stop telling yourself no other places measure up. Here's why: it is very easy to bring your top tier card into any other casino and request their top tier card in return for you making it your new "home base casino". Why you continue to list the weaker reasons for needing to stay with CET is a mystery. You will never get more, only less, from them. The same goes for Dan. There are, except for the countrywide coverage, MUCH better properties and casinos with better amenities out there.

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Why would I want to put in play elsewhere when my main goal is to have a wide variety of places to stay for free throughout the country? Only CET provides that.

The other benefits I can take or leave, or are rapidly degrading.

I think the properties are fine, for the most part. Some are better than others, but I am happy enough with most of the rooms.

Dan, if you do use their wide array of properties, as I always did by staying for free at every one of them on motor trips around the country several times when I was Diamond, then to me that's worth the abuse too.

Alan, there are so many other casinos that you could be playing at. So many...and the LV amenities, rooms, restaurants etc. are at least as good and in many cases, much better than Caesars. So you've had trouble playing craps at a few places. So what. They'll never know you now. I was barred from playing vp at Bellagio & Harrahs on the Strip, and within 2 years I went back to both and no one said a word, even when I used my cards and even during some huge handpays. And your working with/consulting for them has nothing to do with playing there. Dancer does it all the time, and they probably give him even better treatment because of it.

Good points Rob.

Alan, maybe you should "get back on that horse" and try playing some craps at mgm properties next time you are in vegas. What could it hurt? They didnt trespass you did they?

In furtherance of my suggestion that you don't give your dollars to Caesars if you are unhappy, this is what casino players are lacking:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...urchill-action


Hopefully, it will have some effect.

Valid question: why don't I try playing again at the casinos where I ran into trouble before?
My answer: I have little to gain and much to lose by trying to play again at MGM, Bellagio and NYNY. I have no interest in playing at the other hotels owned by MGM. As I said earlier I have done work for other casino companies in town so I will not be playing there. Other companies that I have no business relationship with are not casinos where I have an interest in staying or dining.

Now the bigger point: I go to Vegas perhaps four or five times a year, often for an event at Caesars which might be free play, shopping or a show. It is really not necessary for me to find another casino.

Unlike Rob, I am not traveling around the country in a giant RV looking for a casino-hotel with an unlimited hot water supply.