Maintaining 7 Stars Ratings at Caesars Total Rewards

Those of us who have reached the 7 Stars tier with Caesars Total Rewards know that there are various worthwhile benefits which come with the tier score. Hopefully, it doesn't cost you too much in casino losses to get the 7 Stars rank.

There have been various threads about what it "costs" to reach 7 Stars depending on the games you play -- most notably video poker where the games have theoretical returns that are known.

There have also been comments about the best way to maintain your 7 Stars rating.

Forum member Dan Druff has suggested playing every other year to maintain 7 Stars.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

You can earn Seven Stars just once every TWO years (do it January 1-March 31), and you will still have uninterrupted Seven Stars benefits for only half the play required.

That's why I haven't played in 2014.

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I've been thinking about this strategy ever since Dan mentioned it, and I've just got to ask Dan this:

Isn't there a gap in your 7 Stars "coverage" when you do this? If you made 7 Stars in 2013 and don't play at all in 2014, you will have to play a lot and very quickly in 2015 so that your 7 Stars doesn't expire on March 31 2015. In fact, would have to put through in January, February and March $1.5-million of coin-in on video poker. Are you prepared to play so much in such a short period of time?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Those of us who have reached the 7 Stars tier with Caesars Total Rewards know that there are various worthwhile benefits which come with the tier score. Hopefully, it doesn't cost you too much in casino losses to get the 7 Stars rank.

There have been various threads about what it "costs" to reach 7 Stars depending on the games you play -- most notably video poker where the games have theoretical returns that are known.

There have also been comments about the best way to maintain your 7 Stars rating.

Forum member Dan Druff has suggested playing every other year to maintain 7 Stars.



I've been thinking about this strategy ever since Dan mentioned it, and I've just got to ask Dan this:

Isn't there a gap in your 7 Stars "coverage" when you do this? If you made 7 Stars in 2013 and don't play at all in 2014, you will have to play a lot and very quickly in 2015 so that your 7 Stars doesn't expire on March 31 2015. In fact, would have to put through in January, February and March $1.5-million of coin-in on video poker. Are you prepared to play so much in such a short period of time?

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Yes, it's a lot of coin-in, but I will do it.

However, it's just ten sessions of 5,000 tiers each, so it will really only take me 10 days' worth of play.

The question is where I am going to put in this play. Tahoe is far (though I can combine it with skiing in those months), and Rincon's best game is Aces and Faces, which has higher variance than JoB.

Hopefully I'll finally hit a royal.

Question: does it make a difference if you put on all those points in three months (Jan, Feb, March) or if you did it spread out during all of 2014 ??

The only full pay JoB machines in the western US are at Reno, Tahoe, and Ak-Chin. All of those are over 450 miles from where I am.

There is the 99.26% Aces and Faces at Rincon, which is much closer. Laughlin has 99.17% bonus, but no point to play that.

Nothing in Vegas is playable at $10 per tier credit.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Question: does it make a difference if you put on all those points in three months (Jan, Feb, March) or if you did it spread out during all of 2014 ??

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If I don't do it by March 31, I will temporarily lose Seven Stars.

No offense Dan but you make it all too hard and unpleasant for yourself. Trust me--whatever status you feel 7 Stars gives you doesn't mean a thing. And without a royal, the cost may be too much. Just doesn't seem worth the time and aggravation to me. I like the knowledge of the system that you bring but it just seems like a burden to me.

I barely maintain diamond anymore (for many years now) from local play. Yet I can go to any Caesars property anywhere and get a free room and all my meals. Sometimes they'll buy me a show; sometimes I pay. But there is no stress and no pressure to gamble any more than I want. They do not, of course, reimburse my air fare anymore. I really don't care about most of the other stuff they give away. My free play offers and shopping sprees are not that much less than they were when I was a whale, and I rarely used them anyway as my schedule has always been tight.

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Originally Posted by regnis

No offense Dan but you make it all too hard and unpleasant for yourself. Trust me--whatever status you feel 7 Stars gives you doesn't mean a thing. And without a royal, the cost may be too much. Just doesn't seem worth the time and aggravation to me. I like the knowledge of the system that you bring but it just seems like a burden to me.

I barely maintain diamond anymore (for many years now) from local play. Yet I can go to any Caesars property anywhere and get a free room and all my meals. Sometimes they'll buy me a show; sometimes I pay. But there is no stress and no pressure to gamble any more than I want. They do not, of course, reimburse my air fare anymore. I really don't care about most of the other stuff they give away. My free play offers and shopping sprees are not that much less than they were when I was a whale, and I rarely used them anyway as my schedule has always been tight.

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This is a good post to read and take in. I'm Seven Stars, totally by accident, for the first time in my life right now, and for what I use it for it's really no more worthwhile than diamond. But there are multiple other disturbing points in Dan's justifications.

First, his love of 9/6 JoB. That's a loser's game with no doubt, because it's mainly in casinos to get players to do exactly what he is doing: play for the points. You cannot and will not win on it unless you hit multiple royals. In vp, varience is the name of the game, and if you want to stop complaining about losing you cannot be afraid of it.

Next, he uses the ultra-meaningless AP word "playable". Everything is "playable". You just have to know what you're doing and have a plan--other than to get to some glorified slot club status, that is. Dan, you can either continue to keep putting your son's college education into the poker machines, or choose a better way.

Then there's the concern about this "gap" whereby there may not be that special Seven Stars "status" for a few months if play doesn't occur. While that may cause some people ulcers, I see it as +EV....as a few months of not worrying, not complaining about being shorted or dissed, and a break to take a step back and look at the overall situation. A calm river causes reflection.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

This is a good post to read and take in. I'm Seven Stars, totally by accident, for the first time in my life right now, and for what I use it for it's really no more worthwhile than diamond. But there are multiple other disturbing points in Dan's justifications.

First, his love of 9/6 JoB. That's a loser's game with no doubt, because it's mainly in casinos to get players to do exactly what he is doing: play for the points. You cannot and will not win on it unless you hit multiple royals. In vp, varience is the name of the game, and if you want to stop complaining about losing you cannot be afraid of it.

Next, he uses the ultra-meaningless AP word "playable". Everything is "playable". You just have to know what you're doing and have a plan--other than to get to some glorified slot club status, that is. Dan, you can either continue to keep putting your son's college education into the poker machines, or choose a better way.

Then there's the concern about this "gap" whereby there may not be that special Seven Stars "status" for a few months if play doesn't occur. While that may cause some people ulcers, I see it as +EV....as a few months of not worrying, not complaining about being shorted or dissed, and a break to take a step back and look at the overall situation. A calm river causes reflection.

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I am only concerned about the "gap" because it would then cost me money to stay at CET properties while re-earning Seven Stars.

Oh, and I might miss out on being able to get the best upgrades on my cruise for that year. Last year, I found a "free upgrades" promotion running on Norwegian during the first week of April. I used that to upgrade my oceanview Seven Stars room to a balcony (very big upgrade for Alaska), and it was free to do so. They did not run that promotion again before I ended up cruising, and I would have missed it if I wasn't Seven Stars on April 1 (the first day you are able to start booking upcoming cruises with the Seven Stars benefit).

I just got back from that cruise on August 12, and it was very nice.

You are criticizing 9/6 JoB. Why? How is it a "loser's game", unless you're comparing it to the few remaining 100%+ VP machines around town? And I doubt that's what you're comparing, because I see your reports of playing awful machines like 7-5 bonus.

I have stopped engaging your silly arguments that you can somehow defy mathematics and regularly beat poor-paying machines, but I still laugh at your nonsense when you tell people "just learn to win" and other BS revolving around your system which defies all logic.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Yes, it's a lot of coin-in, but I will do it.

However, it's just ten sessions of 5,000 tiers each, so it will really only take me 10 days' worth of play.

The question is where I am going to put in this play. Tahoe is far (though I can combine it with skiing in those months), and Rincon's best game is Aces and Faces, which has higher variance than JoB.

Hopefully I'll finally hit a royal.

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I'm confused about this. How do you achieve Seven Stars with only 10 sessions at 5,000 tiers each (50,000 tier points total) when the requirement appears to be 150,000 tier points?

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Originally Posted by Count Room

I'm confused about this. How do you achieve Seven Stars with only 10 sessions at 5,000 tiers each (50,000 tier points total) when the requirement appears to be 150,000 tier points?

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Each 5000 point session gets a 10,000 point bonus.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

I'm confused about this. How do you achieve Seven Stars with only 10 sessions at 5,000 tiers each (50,000 tier points total) when the requirement appears to be 150,000 tier points?

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You get 10,000 bonus tier points for running 5,000 tiers of play in a Caesars day (usually 6:00am-5:59am).

This actually doesn't require that much of a time investment, as you can do it in two 2 day trips and one 3 day trip.

Here is an example:

January 7: Show up 9pm, play 2000 hands of $5 per credit VP, which will take about 4-5 hours, which will earn 5,000 base tiers and 10,000 bonus tiers. Go to sleep at hotel.
January 8: Wake up whenever. Play 2000 hands again at some point during the day. Go to sleep at hotel.
January 9: Wake up in morning. Play 2000 hands again. Leave in early afternoon to go home.
Total tiers earned = 45,000
Average total expected loss at 9/6 Jacks or Better: $690
Total hours at property: About 40

February 4: Show up 9pm, play 2000 hands of $5 per credit VP, which will take about 4-5 hours, which will earn 5,000 base tiers and 10,000 bonus tiers. Go to sleep at hotel.
February 5: Wake up whenever. Play 2000 hands again at some point during the day. Go to sleep at hotel.
February 6: Wake up in morning. Play 2000 hands again. Leave in early afternoon to go home.
Total tiers earned = 45,000
Average total expected loss at 9/6 Jacks or Better: $690
Total hours at property: About 40

March 1: Show up 9pm, play 2000 hands of $5 per credit VP, which will take about 4-5 hours, which will earn 5,000 base tiers and 10,000 bonus tiers. Go to sleep at hotel.
March 2: Wake up whenever. Play 2000 hands again at some point during the day. Go to sleep at hotel.
March 3: Wake up whenever. Play 2000 hands again at some point during the day. Go to sleep at hotel.
March 4: Wake up in morning. Play 2000 hands again. Leave in early afternoon to go home.
Total tiers earned = 60,000
Average total expected loss at 9/6 Jacks or Better: $920
Total hours at property: About 64

So here you can go about once per month, with one 2-day trip and one 3-day trip, and walk out with Seven Stars earned for the next TWO years, at an expected loss of $2300.

Of course, that's EXPECTED loss, but there's a lot of variance.

You will be about 50-50 to hit a royal. If you do hit one royal, you will be expected to WIN $7700 overall. If you hit two royals, you will be expected to WIN about $27700 overall. If you hit zero royals, you will be expected to LOSE $12300.

So the one real downside to this is that you will lose $12,300 on average if you don't hit a royal, and it can even be worse if you don't hit a royal AND don't run well in general.

The upside is that if you DO hit a royal, you have a very high chance to finish ahead for the whole thing.

Dan, you need to understand that you do not really understand the game of vp, and while you greatly understand the slot card & comp game, you're chasing the whole thing running backwards. And this is the reason you cannot win, and from your plethora of posts I am hardly convinced you even know how to play even the simplest of games, job, perfectly. Thus, I opine, and maybe it will help you in the future.

9/6 Jacks or Better is a loser's game because, just as I said, you REQUIRE multiple royals at the very least to be ahead in any year that you foolishly chase slot card status and base your complete approach on silly theory. You shy away from variance by claiming the pay table is ".4% less" or some other unqualified remark, when you know higher variance games is what people who consistently win play. Plus the game is more boring than an Obama self-righteous lecture, and you've turned the whole gambling thing into a quest on how to get back at CET for taking all your money (and actually, giving it directly to me if you want to bring it down into harsh reality). And you actually go in EXPECTING to lose for the year!, which in and of itself is truly amazing.

So wise up and listen.

I would rather pay for a room than have to play JOB--but that's just me. I'd also rather kill myself than play JOB.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

So here you can go about once per month, with one 2-day trip and one 3-day trip, and walk out with Seven Stars earned for the next TWO years, at an expected loss of $2300.

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I guess this assumes you like playing this much VP.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I would rather pay for a room than have to play JOB--but that's just me. I'd also rather kill myself than play JOB.

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Dear Heavenly Father, when it's time to take the good soul of regnis, please find a place for him away from Jacks or Better machines in the big casino in the sky.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

9/6 Jacks or Better is a loser's game because, just as I said, you REQUIRE multiple royals at the very least to be ahead in any year

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I don't play Jacks or Better because you want to pull your hair out when you start getting hands like quad aces or quad deuces. I remember when Caesars had 9/6 Jacks about eight years ago and I was playing it because it was a "better game" and in one session I got multiple quad aces and multiple quad 2s, 3s, 4s and I felt sick. As you know they all paid 125 coins.

About two years ago I was at Rincon when they still had 9/6 Jacks and I sat down at a machine next to my son -- and he was playing Jacks so I played Jacks -- and it happened again: quad aces and 2s and 3s and 4s.

NEVER AGAIN.

However, with that said, if you are chasing royals you probably are more likely to hit royals playing Jacks or Better than any other game.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I don't play Jacks or Better because you want to pull your hair out when you start getting hands like quad aces or quad deuces. I remember when Caesars had 9/6 Jacks about eight years ago and I was playing it because it was a "better game" and in one session I got multiple quad aces and multiple quad 2s, 3s, 4s and I felt sick. As you know they all paid 125 coins.

About two years ago I was at Rincon when they still had 9/6 Jacks and I sat down at a machine next to my son -- and he was playing Jacks so I played Jacks -- and it happened again: quad aces and 2s and 3s and 4s.

NEVER AGAIN.

However, with that said, if you are chasing royals you probably are more likely to hit royals playing Jacks or Better than any other game.

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I get what you are saying.

I also got AAAA at a JoB game last year and was frustrated about it (especially since it was a short session running freeplay!)

But I have had too many brutal sessions at bonus poker variants where I lose too much money due to repeated underpayment on full houses and flushes, and then find myself counting on more quads to bail me out (which don't always come).

Or, simply put, there is less variance at 9/6 JoB, because you are less dependent upon quads-or-better in order to avoid losing a lot of money.

I agree that it's more boring to play JoB, but I think the prospect of hitting a $20k royal will be enough to keep me from falling asleep.

I've had sessions playing 8/5 Bonus or Aces and Faces when I was lucky to get one full house. That's why I am just as happy on 7/5 machines. Sorry math guys.

However I will play 8/5 over 7/5 when available.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I've had sessions playing 8/5 Bonus or Aces and Faces when I was lucky to get one full house. That's why I am just as happy on 7/5 machines. Sorry math guys.

However I will play 8/5 over 7/5 when available.

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I'm sure you've also had long sessions where you hit many full houses and flushes, but don't hit quads or better.

Or perhaps you've had sessions where you set a stop-loss of a certain amount, and the extra money you would have won in the additional flush/full house payout would have been the credits that would have hit something big. So those extra payouts also give you "free hands" when you are playing to a stop-loss point.

This disdain for good flush/full house paytables is the reason we are seeing such a degradation with every passing year. Even knowledgeable VP players like Alan find ways to reason to themselves that paytables aren't so important.

Dan I think paytables are important but 7/5 vs 8/5 won't break me. Playing 9/6 Jacks eliminates the big payoff quads.

Dan looks at everything as if you're playing into infinity. Alan has said all the right things about looking for and playing the best pay tables, but that when they aren't available it does not by any means mean that you cannot win TODAY. Dan would believe that by winning today on a 7/5 pay table that you are required to lose sometime, somewhere to make up for it, but that is simply off-the-wall. No one has ever answered me as to why, if a -EV game is beaten with a stop-play win limit strategy today, that it just can't keep happening, which, of course, it does. And when they peel that onion down to claim "when the big loss does come, it'll wipe out all the little wins and more in order to get you to that obligatory negative expectation" they never, ever want to acknowledge that there OF COURSE are big winners too, and most of the time they are far bigger than the big losses. Their lack of and fear of confrontation on these issues defies debate common sense.

I'll give Dan one more lesson on why he wastes his time and money on a game like job. His first demon is believing that because it's an over 99% game, combined with the slot club fluff he's been brainwashed into believing he's playing in a "positive" situation. How's that been working out for you?

He also, due to his VAST experience with vp play, is afraid of higher variance. He cannot and will not listen to myself, Dancer, Wizard etc. that IF YOU HAVE THE PROPER BANKROLL, HIGHER VARIANCE GAMES WILL CREATE MORE PROFIT THAT LOWER VARIANCE GAMES. It has nothing to do with game EV, because the math people wouldn't be playing these games if they couldn't concoct a positive situation out of the slot club benefits.....and I wouldn't be playing them if I didn't set win goal stop limits.

So Dan, you can either accept this as a teachable moment, or keep throwing good money after cheap comps. Wynn has a great 9/7 TDBP +EV "playable" game at $5 and above as you've seen in my picture, that with their benefits easily beats the CET rewards system and overall +EV percentages. VP is all about getting lucky. There are multiple ways to get lucky in TDBP, again as you've seen from my pictures, and only one way in boring job. And BTW, that's where the saying "You've got a boring job" comes from.

Rob, can you explain how "stopping" is any different than playing one long session?

That is, if I sit down for 100 hands today, get ahead, and then sit down for 100 hands tomorrow, how is that any different than playing 200 hands today?

Does the machine have a memory that I won and adjust my ability to win?

Because that would be violating all sorts of Nevada state laws.

Your "book a bunch of little wins" crap ignores the fact that machines have no memory and no ability to adjust your odds, so stopping while ahead and playing again later is identical to continuing to play today. You're still continuing play while ahead, except yours is just delayed by a meaningless break.

I'm sure you've been told this countless times, but you refuse to accept it.

I would like to think that you're just a troll who knows better, but part of me thinks that you believe your own lies.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Rob, can you explain how "stopping" is any different than playing one long session?

That is, if I sit down for 100 hands today, get ahead, and then sit down for 100 hands tomorrow, how is that any different than playing 200 hands today?

Does the machine have a memory that I won and adjust my ability to win?

Because that would be violating all sorts of Nevada state laws.

Your "book a bunch of little wins" crap ignores the fact that machines have no memory and no ability to adjust your odds, so stopping while ahead and playing again later is identical to continuing to play today. You're still continuing play while ahead, except yours is just delayed by a meaningless break.

I'm sure you've been told this countless times, but you refuse to accept it.

I would like to think that you're just a troll who knows better, but part of me thinks that you believe your own lies.

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Yes I can help you here and if you retain an open mind it will make sense. But first, you need to get the "troll" & "lies" comments out of your mind because they don't work on me since I live my life nearly free of them.

Look at it in this manner: I play 100 hands at Wynn and win $2000 when my win goal for that day was $250, based entirely upon my bankroll I have with me and the game(s)/denomination(s) I intended to play. Great, right? So after a walk I go to the Mirage and play under the same parameters once again. You're saying how does that differ from just continue play on the machine at Wynn? Here's how:

At Wynn I obviously got lucky with a decent winner. But it was the MACHINE that gave this to me, and it had very little to do with the basic skills of the game and casino industry I possess. We know that with perfect play, this machine's TDBP 9/7 pay table returns nearly 100%, and over time the results will approach that % based upon the quality of play it gets. Perhaps the two players before me lost a huge bundle and the players after me won a bundle. All I care about though is how it was paying (or not paying) when I was at it. In my case, as I said, it was paying and that was good enough for me. The math of the machine is the math of the machine, and it is very clear that it is not always going to take our money nor pay off. I happened upon it at the right time for me. It could have been better--a LOT better--but because of my non-greedy win limit this was good enough for me.

Now onto the Mirage, and I'm seriously condensing this in order to make my point. You believe that if I'm playing the same -EV game or games it'll eventually catch up with me and I will be a long-term loser. I get that--play +EV and you will win; play -EV and you will lose. Simple mathematics that the casinos all live on. But what every such critic does not get and what I figured out as I departed from the curse of advantage play in 1996, is that it is not ME who runs the positive or negative vp EV show. It's the machines. Who says the machine has to be in "catch-up" mode because I've won there or elsewhere? In fact, this machine may well be in some sort of pay mode within its random configuration for the very short time I'm sitting at it--or it may not, and that's why I developed a strategy that increases denominations and game volatilities and requires I change machines should a bad streak appear. Eventually, when you play enuf credits, you almost always WILL hit a normal quad or better, and because of the high denomination and high variance game I'm now playing, the win goal is almost always attained, and surpassed--sometimes by a very large amount.

So you now ask how this can be accomplished at 99%? Well, would 103% be any better for this short amount of play I'm giving it? OF COURSE NOT! Those few extra credits that may or may not be realized really are not all that meaningful. The quads are, and those are the hands that determine when/how much I win. Over and over again. When you say I HAVE to lose because I'm not playing a 100% machine over all the years, that's because you have not understood how I've done and do what I do. The strict math people always will balk at it because + is + and - is -. But these people insist on applying long term rules to short term play, and that is as incorrect to do as anything ever was.

I have never said that I've re-written the math books or don't agree with any of the math as it pertains to gambling. Others have but I haven't. What I've said is you cannot beat the math that the casinos all have on their side AGAINST EACH AND EVERY PLAYER, no matter what kind of theoretical "edge" they've created in their own minds for the little time they are there. It's futile to fight the math over time, regardless of who you are. But when you use the math along with the various other factors that goes into my strategy, it is certainly very possible to consistently win from the vp machines at ANY pay table, over time. As I've been doing for 18 years now. A player cannot win in the long term or by the math alone, without getting very lucky. My strategy takes total advantage of every bit of luck I receive--good OR bad.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I have never said that I've re-written the math books or don't agree with any of the math as it pertains to gambling. Others have but I haven't. What I've said is you cannot beat the math that the casinos all have on their side AGAINST EACH AND EVERY PLAYER, no matter what kind of theoretical "edge" they've created in their own minds for the little time they are there. It's futile to fight the math over time, regardless of who you are. But when you use the math along with the various other factors that goes into my strategy, it is certainly very possible to consistently win from the vp machines at ANY pay table, over time. As I've been doing for 18 years now. A player cannot win in the long term or by the math alone, without getting very lucky. My strategy takes total advantage of every bit of luck I receive--good OR bad.

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This is the essence of win goals and loss limits. Rob dresses it up with his descriptions about his strategy and special plays and other holy water talk but it comes down to this:

1. No one disputes the math of any game
2. If you get lucky and cash out when you are ahead -- you will do better than the expected return of any pay table

And that's all it is, folks.

Luck + cashing out when your credit meter is positive = winning on a negative expectation machine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4

Yes it is that simple--even Porky Pig can agree. I "dress it up" because there are tools available to help players get to the points where they CAN get ahead and cash out.

Luck plus cashing out when your credit meter is positive = winning on a negative expectation machine THAT SESSION.

That's a distinction worth noting. Without specifying "that session," the sentence would more often than not be interpreted as "luck plus cashing out when your credit meter is positive = winning on a negative expectation machine" overall, as in lifetime. So, in a sense, it's a carefully constructed sentence in that either meaning can be derived from it. Perhaps the author intended that; I do not know. One would have to ask him. I strongly recommend that no reader interpret the sentence, however, as meaning this strategy/philosophy will yield lifetime winning on negative expectation machines.

Editorial Bob

Yes, redietz: wash, rinse, repeat. If you have more sessions when you cash out showing a profit on the credit meter you will come out ahead even on a negative expectation game.