An "Orphaned Progressive"

A few months ago there was "big news" made in Vegas when the last of a bank of progressive slot machines at the MGM Grand was hit for more than two million dollars. It was the "Majestic Lions" slot machine.

MGM Grand elected to keep the progressive jackpot on a single slot machine until it was hit -- and it took many years for it to be hit.

At Caesars Palace there is a similar situation. There is one slot machine with a progressive jackpot waiting to be hit. And this machine and this jackpot have sat there for years -- I remember first playing this machine going back something like 8 years ago. The progressive built up from a bank of slots -- and then the bank of machines were removed and the progressive remains on this single machine.

It's a $1 slot but requires three coins to hit it.

I rarely see it played even though the jackpot is near a half million dollars. It is located in the slot machine area in the Palace Casino near where the Megabucks machines are.

According to Nevada gaming regulations, progressive jackpots "belong to the players" and the casinos can't keep them. The casinos have the option of leaving the jackpot till it's hit or moving the jackpot to other games.

You will recall that Harrah's Rincon recently moved the progressive jackpots from several slot machines to video poker progressive machines because it wanted to eliminate those particular slot games.

This photo was taken this past Sunday. I call this an "orphaned progressive" because the jackpot sits on just one lone machine until hit, similar to the MGM Majestic Lions which also was an orphaned progressive and sat on one machine for years.

It would be great to at least know the exact odds of hitting all the prize levels with that slot machine, but alas..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

A few months ago there was "big news" made in Vegas when the last of a bank of progressive slot machines at the MGM Grand was hit for more than two million dollars. It was the "Majestic Lions" slot machine.

MGM Grand elected to keep the progressive jackpot on a single slot machine until it was hit -- and it took many years for it to be hit.

At Caesars Palace there is a similar situation. There is one slot machine with a progressive jackpot waiting to be hit. And this machine and this jackpot have sat there for years -- I remember first playing this machine going back something like 8 years ago. The progressive built up from a bank of slots -- and then the bank of machines were removed and the progressive remains on this single machine.

It's a $1 slot but requires three coins to hit it.

I rarely see it played even though the jackpot is near a half million dollars. It is located in the slot machine area in the Palace Casino near where the Megabucks machines are.

According to Nevada gaming regulations, progressive jackpots "belong to the players" and the casinos can't keep them. The casinos have the option of leaving the jackpot till it's hit or moving the jackpot to other games.

You will recall that Harrah's Rincon recently moved the progressive jackpots from several slot machines to video poker progressive machines because it wanted to eliminate those particular slot games.

This photo was taken this past Sunday. I call this an "orphaned progressive" because the jackpot sits on just one lone machine until hit, similar to the MGM Majestic Lions which also was an orphaned progressive and sat on one machine for years.

---

A couple of questions, Alan. Were these machines linked together and the progressive number the same on all the machines? Or were they individual progressives where the numbers would be different on each machine? In other words, did they take the progressive money from the other individual progessives, lump it together, and put it in the progressive meter on the one machine left?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Count Room

It would be great to at least know the exact odds of hitting all the prize levels with that slot machine, but alas..

---

The machine can be empirically statted. One more thing. It looks like an old machine. With IGT machines that were made before the year 2000, you can look by the third reel and see the coin in/coin out meters. It would be an easy job to write those meters down. The top meter is coin in. The second meter down is coin out. Handpays are not recorded in the coin out meter. There are only three handpays on this machine. The one coin red, white and blue hit. The two coin red sevens hit and the two coin red, white and blue hit.

As I remember the meters are six digits. When the IGT Vision series first came out it was an easy thing to figure beause the meters hadn't been wrapped around yet. This machine appears to be at least 15 years old. There is no telling how many times the meters have beeen wrapped around. So what a person needs to do is write those meters down and give it a month or two to see what the drop looks like. The top line hit can be figured out empirically.

There used to be a row of these machines -- perhaps ten or twelve -- with the same progressive jackpot showing on all. This machine is the last of that group of machines.

I am not sure what the meters are supposed to tell you, Mickey. I remember researching those meters years ago and discovered that they were actually meaningless for figuring odds or coin-in and there was no rhyme or reason as to when they were reset.

I think more worthwhile info would be if the payback on these machines was ever released?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

There used to be a row of these machines -- perhaps ten or twelve -- with the same progressive jackpot showing on all. This machine is the last of that group of machines.

I am not sure what the meters are supposed to tell you, Mickey. I remember researching those meters years ago and discovered that they were actually meaningless for figuring odds or coin-in and there was no rhyme or reason as to when they were reset.

I think more worthwhile info would be if the payback on these machines was ever released?

---

Okay, so we know that no money was lumped into the meter on the last machine left. That's a very important thing to know. It means that if this machine is positive by now it's not positive by much. As far back as you can remember what was the lowest progressive number that you remember seeing on this bank. A very important piece of information would be "Where does the meter reset?" Perhaps you can ask some of your employee friends at Caesars about the history of that bank and what was the number the meter started on.

There are definitely things that can be figured out, Alan....if we have enough information.

I don't know where the progressive started but I can tell you that the progressive was stopped a couple of years ago. Now the jackpot is frozen and does not increase with additional play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I think more worthwhile info would be if the payback on these machines was ever released?

---

Sure, but the problem with that is it's proprietary information. Good luck getting someone in Caesars giving you that information. The best machine pros have always been able to work around that.

Making a thousand spins on this game and counting the number of times the red seven lands on the line on the first reel, the number of times the white seven lands on the line of the second reel, the number of times the blue seven lands on the line of the third reel, is gonna give you a good idea of what the odds of the top line hit is.

My guess is its in the millions to one, which means this play, even if it is positive, is nothing to write home about. But I thrive on figuring stuff like this out.

Alan, real machine pro don't wait for someone else to tell them anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I am not sure what the meters are supposed to tell you, Mickey. I remember researching those meters years ago and discovered that they were actually meaningless for figuring odds or coin-in and there was no rhyme or reason as to when they were reset.

---

This is just not true, Alan. The coinin/coinout meters are never reset. They just flip back over to 000,000 after the 999,999th coin.....and they give up a ton of information. If you see 500,000 coin in and 450,000 coin out then its a 90% game plus the handpays.

The problem with looking at the meters of a 15 year old machine is you don't know how many times the meters have been wrapped around. So you have to write the meters down then give it about 20,000 coin in to get a picture of the payback percentage.

And I'm not talking about you yourself running the 20,000 coin in. Just write the meters down and let the public run the action.

You said it yourself: you don't know the handpays. You also don't know if coin in vs coin out even represents the theoretical return of the program. Bottom line: those coin in / coin out meters are meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

You said it yourself: you don't know the handpays. You also don't know if coin in vs coin out even represents the theoretical return of the program. Bottom line: those coin in / coin out meters are meaningless.

---

ROTFLMAO! Okay, now that I've had a good laugh. If they are meaningless then why are they there, Alan?

As for your first sentence, no, I don't know the handpay frequencies at this point. But a thousand spin empirical study will give me those odds. Deconstructing/reverse engineering slot machines whether they are progressive, banking or a combination of progressive/banking has always been my forte. I tracked the IGT Vision Series meters for years to determine at what point I could spin a play off. Its an easy way of determining whether a machine has a high payback or a low payback. Tracking meters for 100,000 coin in and 95,000 coin out might be meaningless to you, Alan, but not to me.

If you truly believe what you are saying here then I suppose the masses believe the same thing you do. Its probably the reason I don't have much competition at what I do.

Mickey--assuming you are not full of S**t, how does one track coin in and coin out meters? Where is that information found? And it would seem to me that 1000 spins is insufficient for any study where the combinations may be in the millions.

Can you explain this in more detail so a layman such as me can understand?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Mickey--assuming you are not full of S**t, how does one track coin in and coin out meters? Where is that information found? And it would seem to me that 1000 spins is insufficient for any study where the combinations may be in the millions.

Can you explain this in more detail so a layman such as me can understand?

---

I tracked IGT Vision Series meters for years. Games like Wild Cherry Pie, Diamond Mine, Fishing For Cash, etc. On machines made before 2000 you could look in the window just past the third reel and see the meters. When the Visions first came out in 97 the meters all started at 000000 so it was easy before the machines got more than 1,000, 000 in action. The machines that were manufactured after 1999 didn't have the meters where you could see them.

If the top meter is at 90,000 coin in and the bottom meter is at 78,000 coin out then divide 78,000 by 90,000 and the game is about 87% plus the handpays.

How the handpay frequencies were figured out is tracking the amount of action you run with your card which will tell you how many spins you made. If you know how much action it takes to get 1 point and how many points it takes to get a dollar (or comp dollar) then it easy to figure out how many spins you made.

Then I would take a pocket sized notebook and create columns for each reel. Every time the main symbol lands on the line you record it in its respective column. A 1000 spin sample space is kind of small for the game in question but it will give you a ballpark idea of the odds. But you keep adding to the sample space every time you play.

You divide the number of times the symbol landed on the line by the total number of spins you made to get the tentative frequency. So let's say the main symbol landed on the line of the first reel 28 times, it landed on the line of the second reel 27 times, and it landed on the third reel 29 times. You divide 1000 by all three numbers.

1000/28 = 35.71
1000/27 = 37.04
1000/29 = 34.48

35.71 X 37.04 X34.08 = 45,607

That's your tentative estimate of the frequency of the top line hit. Just keep adding to your sample space as you play. This works very well for low jackpot amounts because the frequencies aren't so long. A case in point is the Bally Blazing 7's where in the $1 game the frequency of the top line hit is 16 X 16 X 16 = 4096.

I've been deconstructing games like this for years and it also works very well with video line games. Michael Shackleford confirmed for me that I was doing it right when he went into MGM and tracked the Lions Share main symbols the same way I did it.

I'm sure you've all heard that clicking sound in the machine when you hit something. That's the coin out meter racking up the number of credits you hit.

I know that Alan thinks the meters are meaningless. But if you ever find an IGT machine that is old enough to have those meters just past the third reel....then take note of where the coin in meter is at, bet one, two or three credits and watch the coin out meter move up by the number of coins you bet. Take note of where the coin out meter is at and whenever you hit a line pay watch the coin out meter click up by the amount of coins you won. This all has meaning to me.

Mickey... others have investigated the meter myths. That's all they are -- myths. Your meter theory ranks right with Singer's fifth card flipovers. Sorry. Quote anyone who supports it

I'm actually on board with everything Mickey is saying except for the handpays part.

The way he determines handpays sounds like inaccurate pseudoscience to me. That leaves a big hole in determining the return.

Dan: is mickey suggesting that his presumed actual return of a machine matches the theoretical return? Does he understand that the symbols that he tracks are actually virtual reels and not actual reels? Sorry. This has all been discussed and dismissed before. It is myth. It is useless information. Sorry. The meters will not help you win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I tracked IGT Vision Series meters for years. Games like Wild Cherry Pie, Diamond Mine, Fishing For Cash, etc. On machines made before 2000 you could look in the window just past the third reel and see the meters. When the Visions first came out in 97 the meters all started at 000000 so it was easy before the machines got more than 1,000, 000 in action. The machines that were manufactured after 1999 didn't have the meters where you could see them.

If the top meter is at 90,000 coin in and the bottom meter is at 78,000 coin out then divide 78,000 by 90,000 and the game is about 87% plus the handpays.

How the handpay frequencies were figured out is tracking the amount of action you run with your card which will tell you how many spins you made. If you know how much action it takes to get 1 point and how many points it takes to get a dollar (or comp dollar) then it easy to figure out how many spins you made.

Then I would take a pocket sized notebook and create columns for each reel. Every time the main symbol lands on the line you record it in its respective column. A 1000 spin sample space is kind of small for the game in question but it will give you a ballpark idea of the odds. But you keep adding to the sample space every time you play.

You divide the number of times the symbol landed on the line by the total number of spins you made to get the tentative frequency. So let's say the main symbol landed on the line of the first reel 28 times, it landed on the line of the second reel 27 times, and it landed on the third reel 29 times. You divide 1000 by all three numbers.

1000/28 = 35.71
1000/27 = 37.04
1000/29 = 34.48

35.71 X 37.04 X34.08 = 45,607

That's your tentative estimate of the frequency of the top line hit. Just keep adding to your sample space as you play. This works very well for low jackpot amounts because the frequencies aren't so long. A case in point is the Bally Blazing 7's where in the $1 game the frequency of the top line hit is 16 X 16 X 16 = 4096.

I've been deconstructing games like this for years and it also works very well with video line games. Michael Shackleford confirmed for me that I was doing it right when he went into MGM and tracked the Lions Share main symbols the same way I did it.

I'm sure you've all heard that clicking sound in the machine when you hit something. That's the coin out meter racking up the number of credits you hit.

---

I don't have sufficient knowledge to know if what you are saying has any validity, but thank you for the detailed explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I'm actually on board with everything Mickey is saying except for the handpays part.

The way he determines handpays sounds like inaccurate pseudoscience to me. That leaves a big hole in determining the return.

---

Dan, earlier this year a thread was started on WoV about the Lion's Share slot machine in MGM Grand with the $2,000,000 plus jackpot. The thread is simply called Lion's Share. JB, one of the adminstrators went over you tube videos of the game and tracked the number of times the Lion's symbol land on the line of each reel. Michael Shackleford, The Wizard, read the thread and decided to do an emprical on the game.

He sat down on the machine and tracked every symbol just like I described to you here on how it's done. He has a page on his Wizard of Odds site with the results. Scroll down to Lions Share Reel Survey.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/slots/lions-share/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey... others have investigated the meter myths. That's all they are -- myths. Your meter theory ranks right with Singer's fifth card flipovers. Sorry. Quote anyone who supports it

---

Sorry, Alan. That dog won't hunt. Name one world class machine pro who says they are meaningless.

Sorry, the burden of proof is on you, mickey. You have to tell us. You are the one making a claim -- and you alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan: is mickey suggesting that his presumed actual return of a machine matches the theoretical return? Does he understand that the symbols that he tracks are actually virtual reels and not actual reels? Sorry. This has all been discussed and dismissed before. It is myth. It is useless information. Sorry. The meters will not help you win.

---

Sure, its a virtual reel but there are fixed odds on every symbol landing on the line. A typical reel has 22 physical stops so some might think that if there is only one main symbol on every reel then the odds would be 22 X 22 X 22. But that is not the case. By assigning duplicate stops in the RNG to the lesser symbols this lengthens the odds of making the top line hit. But there are definitely fixed odds of every symbol landing on the line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Sorry, the burden of proof is on you, mickey. You have to tell us. You are the one making a claim -- and you alone.

---

Alan, you are a tricky Dude. You don't believe what you are saying. You're just trying to trick me into giving up the information. Okay, I'll explain to you one way I used the meters to exploit an IGT Vision Series game to get an edge not just in the game but an edge against other knowledgeable players who knew how to exploit the game. It was called Mystery Bonus. The game came in several configurations but I'll explain the one that was in the Ramada Laughlin. It was a $1 Ten TimesPay Mystery Bonus.

From reset, you would see the LED screen at the top of the machine flashing "WATCH FOR" in big green letters. At 450 coin in, confirmed by the coin in meter, the LED screen would start flashing "COMING SOON" in big red letters. From that point it could award a random bonus between 50 and 100 coins on any coin in from 1 to 200. The averege was 100.

I assigned an estimated payback value of the machine at 90%. So how much of the payback is line pays and how much is the bonus worth? Well, that's a no brainer. 450 coin in plus 100 coin in is 550. The average bonus is 50 plus 100 divided by 2 = 75.

75/550 means the bonus is worth 13.6% of the payback. So that would mean the line pays are worth 76.4%.

So what if I walk up on this machine and see it flashing "COMING SOON." Where would I be at then, at least up through collecting the bonus. I figure to put an average of 100 coin in or less to get the bonus. But we'll figure it at 100 coins.

100 coins at 76.4% = a cost of $23.60.
The average bonus is $75.
Average profit = $51.40

Is the math absolutely perfect? No, because I started with an arbitrary number, 90%, for the overall payback. And that's a lowball number for a $1 game. But its damn close enough.

Now, how did I get an edge on the competition? The other guys that knew how to play the game? The pros wouldn't play the game unless they found it flashing "COMING SOON." When I finished a play, or when I saw someone else finish a play, I would write down the coin in meter then go on about my business. If I came back by the machine later I could look at the meter and see how much coin in had been given. If it was in the low 400's I would spin the play off. Not as big an edge as finding the machine flashing "COMING SOON" but still a big enough edge.

And I did all this with those meters you say are meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Is the math absolutely perfect? No, because I started with an arbitrary number, 90%, for the overall payback. And that's a lowball number for a $1 game. But its damn close enough.

---

Sorry, bad science.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Sorry, bad science.

---

See if you can get Dancer or Shackleford to say it's bad science. You know where they are. Ask them. I'm a 19 year machine pro, Alan. For years I explained to everyone on vpFREE how I exploit machines. If you put up how a play works on vpFREE and you are wrong about it you are going to get bombarded by world class pros calling you an idiot. I seen it time and time again when others would put up a play. Not one top notch pro has ever told me I was wrong. For years I have had open invitations to meet and greet Dancer, Scott, Shackleford, and many other world class pros. There is only one reason for that. They know I'm a high caliber pro.

I really don't care if you don't get it, Alan. The whole world thinks like you. Its the reason guys like me do so well at the game.

One more thing, Alan. Dancer has propositioned me more than one time to write my life story. And he would get it published. He thinks the whole world should know how a high school dropout, and homeless drifter, transformed into one of the top machine pros on the planet.

Another Rob Singer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Another Rob Singer.

---

Unsubscribe me. I don't need this bullshit.

Alan, you're not making sense. Those techniques either work or they don't. If a guy claims He makes a living off it, well good for him. Unless He's lying of course. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because the methods He describes make simple common sense are not difficult to understand and are easily put into practice if one wants to put in some effort, unlike Robs convoluted system that even if it works can seemingly only be executed by Rob Himself. There is no comparison between the two.

The meters are meaningless. The numbers don't show the return. They don't show handpays. They can't predict wins. It's hocus pocus and mickey admits to fabricating numbers to create a formula.

This is a big stretch from using a video poker paytable to create a return for a game.

I SUGGEST EVERYONE GOOGLE THIS SUBJECT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The meters are meaningless. The numbers don't show the return. They don't show handpays. They can't predict wins. It's hocus pocus and mickey admits to fabricating numbers to create a formula.

This is a big stretch from using a video poker paytable to create a return for a game.

I SUGGEST EVERYONE GOOGLE THIS SUBJECT.

---

I didn't fabricate a number. I estimated a number, 90%, which is standard practice among machine pros. On the Mystery Bonus play I described I was getting a 50% edge. Who cares if you are off a point or two in either direction when you are working such a big edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I didn't fabricate a number. I estimated a number, 90%, which is standard practice among machine pros.

---

Is 1/47 an estimated number when you are drawing four to the royal?

Why 90% and not 92 percent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The meters are meaningless.

---

Alan, you avoid answering questions when you don't know the answer. So I'll ask you again. If the meters are meaningles then why are they there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I didn't fabricate a number. I estimated a number, 90%, which is standard practice among machine pros. On the Mystery Bonus play I described I was getting a 51% edge. 100 coin in with an average profit of $51. Who cares if you are off a point or two in either direction when you are working such a big edge.

---

Here is the answer to your question of why 90% and not 92%.

I understand now: you have an edge because you won. Is that it?

Here is one of the more famous of the IGT Vision Series I used to work. It's called a Double Diamond Mine.

http://toplineslotmachines.com/?attachment_id=599

Take a look at the three columns of the LED screen up top. You will see that there are 4 diamonds collected in the right column, two diamonds collected in the middle column, and two diamonds collected in the right column. And you can see two diamonds on the reels, one in the upper left hand corner, and one in the lower right hand corner.

If you are betting one coin and a diamond lands on the line of reel 1, it will put one more diamond in that column. If you are betting two coins it will put two diamonds in the column. The other reels and columns work the same way. When you collect 10 diamonds in any column yet get a ten coin bonus, and the shaft will empty out.

When this game first came out in 97 I did an empirical on how often the diamonds land on the line. I found that with most machines the chances of a diamond landing on the line in the first column was 1 in 19, second column 1 in 13, third column 1 in 12.

So I did my usual, assigning an overall value of 90% to the game.

With the first column it took 190 coin in to get the 10 coin bonus. 10/190 = 5.26%.

With the second column it took 130 coin in to get the ten coin bonus. 10/130 = 7.7%.

With the third column it took 120 coin in to get the ten coin bonus. 10/120 = 8.33%.

These are averages. So the diamonds represented 21.3% of the payback.

90% minus 21.3% means the line pays are worth 68.7%.

There were lots of configurations I could play, but I'll do the easy one here. What if you walk up to this machine and see 9 diamonds built up in the right hand column? An average of 12 coin in is gonna get you a ten coin bonus. 10/12 = 83.33%.

68.7% plus 83.33% means you have a 152% play.

And who gives a rats ass if you are off a point or two in either direction when you are working such a big edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I understand now: you have an edge because you won. Is that it?

---

I'm not doing this anymore for your benefit, Alan. I'm doing it for the benefit of your subscribers.

There was a time when all a guy had to do was walk around the casinos, monitor the accumulator slots like I've described here and pick off the bonuses when they were ripe. It was worth about $300 a day to me in the late nineties. Games like Mystery Bonus, Wild Cherry Pie, Wild Cherry Bonus Pie, Diamond Thief, Double Diamond Mine, Triple Diamond Mine, Baseball, Money Factory, Jewel in the Crown, Five Card Instant Bingo, Riddle of the Sphinx, Buccaneer Gold, Lady of Fortune, Fort Knox, Safebuster, Shopping Spree, X-Factor, Piggy Bankin', etc. It was the life of Reilly. No downside risk. It was as easy as it got.

I think Allen is saying that Micky is saying that according to the meter a person can predict when a machine is "due" to hit (because the disparity between coin in and out). That's not what He's saying. Allen, please tell us what you mean. I don't want to go down the same wormhole of win goals and loss limits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by quahaug

I think Allen is saying that Micky is saying that according to the meter a person can predict when a machine is "due" to hit (because the disparity between coin in and out). That's not what He's saying. Allen, please tell us what you mean. I don't want to go down the same wormhole of win goals and loss limits.

---

No machine is hot. No machine is cold. No machine is due to hit. I'm simply playing the odds according to the math.

Mickey seems to think that the meters will reveal to him the hold or payback of slot machines.

Is that right?

I am saying the meters do not give that info.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey seems to think that the meters will reveal to him the hold or payback of slot machines.

Is that right?

I am saying the meters do not give that info.

---

But that is not the key to Micky's strategy. The edge is huge, so a couple points either way just don't matter.

What edge? Unless I read it incorrectly, he says he can look at the coin in / coin out meter of any slot machine and determine when he has a huge edge. And I am telling you -- whether you want to believe it or not -- that the coin in / coin out meter has nothing to do with the hold or payback or edge of any machine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey seems to think that the meters will reveal to him the hold or payback of slot machines.

Is that right?

I am saying the meters do not give that info.

---

Alan, I've seen it in many spots, perhaps you have to if you have been in casinos long enough. A person with a clipboard going from machine to machine recording the coin in coin out meters. Sure its meaningless information. Casinos pay their employee's to record useless information.

No Mickey, it is not useless information to the casinos. It tells the casino how much play there was and how much actual coin out or ticket out there was. It does not include hand pay. Did you ever read the regulations of the NGC?

But you are claiming that these meters will tell you the hold or payback and I am telling you that they do not.

A machine might have a program for a return of 98.2% but it actually might pay out 105% or it might pay out 91% or it might pay out 60 percent. You don't know -- and you will never be able to tell by the meters on the machines.

What you are in effect saying is that if a machine just hit five big payouts in a row, it must be a machine with a low hold or a high payout -- because five big payouts in a row would show up on the coin out meter. Is that what you believe?

Past is not prologue when it comes to looking at the meters on machines. You might as well use a divining rod.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

No Mickey, it is not useless information to the casinos. It tells the casino how much play there was and how much actual coin out or ticket out there was. It does not include hand pay. Did you ever read the regulations of the NGC?

But you are claiming that these meters will tell you the hold or payback and I am telling you that they do not.

A machine might have a program for a return of 98.2% but it actually might pay out 105% or it might pay out 91% or it might pay out 60 percent. You don't know -- and you will never be able to tell by the meters on the machines.

What you are in effect saying is that if a machine just hit five big payouts in a row, it must be a machine with a low hold or a high payout -- because five big payouts in a row would show up on the coin out meter. Is that what you believe?

Past is not prologue when it comes to looking at the meters on machines. You might as well use a divining rod.

---

Alan, you are a really dense person. You just don't get it. You never will. There is nothing I can do for you. As gambling goes you are lost in the wilderness. You just don't get it, pall. There is nothing I can do about that. Nothing, Alan,. Nothing I can do for the dense.

But there is something I can do for your subscribers. I can explain to them what it takes to be a real live machine pro on the planet earth. Your pie in the sky bull***** Alan ain't ever gonna get them kids anywhere, You lightweight piece of shit. You never give a reason why, asshole. You just say it ain't but you never give a reason why it ain't true. You are as phony as a three dollar bill.

The great Alan Mendolson says it ain't true so it must not be true. Fuck you, Alan. I don't give a rats ass about your reputation. You are as stupid as they come. You are one dumb fuck when it comes to gambling. You don't know jack***** pall. You just think you do.

Mickey has been banned. He also never responded to my question or statements because he could not pull a fast one over on me.

A simple Google search would show what coin in and out meters are used for. They do not reflect the hold or payback of any game and are not supposed to.

When I challenged Mickey to present his case he failed to do so and launched into personal insults. I've had enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey has been banned. He also never responded to my question or statements because he could not pull a fast one over on me.

A simple Google search would show what coin in and out meters are used for. They do not reflect the hold or payback of any game and are not supposed to.

When I challenged Mickey to present his case he failed to do so and launched into personal insults. I've had enough.

---

I take it that your Montana trip is hereby cancelled?

Lol. That banning was long OVER DUE!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Mickey has been banned. He also never responded to my question or statements because he could not pull a fast one over on me.

A simple Google search would show what coin in and out meters are used for. They do not reflect the hold or payback of any game and are not supposed to.

When I challenged Mickey to present his case he failed to do so and launched into personal insults. I've had enough.

---

I'm glad he's banned, he's a nasty piece of work. Shame Rob couldn't control himself, but I look forward to some positive discussions from now on.

Not sure if this thread is over and dead but I have played video poker and slots for a living for the last 10 years or so. Pretty much a lot like mickey though sounds like he has been doing it a lot longer. I will say everything he was saying is spot on and accurate. I am not really one to argue on forums so if you choose not to believe it I am good with that. I just wanted to add some info on the machine at Caesars in question. I did take a look at it about 5 years ago and tried to track the reels to get a handle on the jackpots. If I remember right one stretch I played 2,000 spins and never saw the blue 7 on the last reel. 2,000 is a pretty small sample when figure some things like this, Probably I was just having a bad run on the last reel but more than likely it leads to the fact that the odds of getting that blue 7 on the 3rd reel that you need is really high and for me it meant the cycle of the jackpot was just too high to really deal with it. Especially only being able to play one machine and best case scenario getting 1,000 spins an hour.

I've played that game a lot less than 2000 times. I've seen the blue 7 on the last reel but I don't recall if ever it was in the winning position. I was just happy to see the existence of the blue 7.

Seeing the blue 7 above or below the line means nothing really. The only thing that matters is it hitting the line. There is a computer chip that tells each reel how often to put each symbol on the line whether it be 1/64 or 1/100 or whatever. It essentially works the exact same as video poker except that each card is given the exact same odds(1/52) then those change as cards come out and are discarded.