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A friend told me he is saving his Total Rewards Reward Credits to buy free play during New Years weekend. But in the meantime he is going to casinos now and using cash to play. Does it make sense to save his RCs abd free play while he gambles with cash out of pocket?
No, it makes zero sense. Also, I hope your friend is Seven Stars, or he will get a terrible exchange rate on his RCs.
Another question: does it make sense to save Reward Credits to pay for dinners, etc. in Vegas while using cash first to gamble? Let's assume the player is a 7 Stars and getting the best conversion rate.
Personally, in all cases, I would use "reward credits" first whether its for play or to pay for meals, etc. My thinking: why use your own money first?
I never use my money when I have free play. On our last trip to New Orleans we played two days without ever using our money.
Alan
Have you ever asked your host for your theo after a trip to Vegas? At your level of play you should be receiving back end comps.
Aaron what do you mean by "back end comps" and what level of play is needed? My level of play is not tbat high.
Many times over the years I've felt like I got back ended after a Vegas trip.
Back end comps are comps you additionally receive at the end of your trip. You can go to the players desk (or see your host) and see if there are any charges you've made to your room they can comp. For example, you charged some drinks at the pool to your room, or you had a nice dinner. They can look at the total costs charged to your room, than look at your play and decide to comp you (part) of this costs and as additional comp.
You can receive 25% - 35% of your theoretical loss in comps.
My last trip was 2 nights (these numbers are approximate):
Booked an offer for $1,200 FP and 2 Bedroom Panorama Suite at Planet Hollywood.
Played just over 20,000 TC before bonus.
I play both slots and VP this trip however was mostly VP 75%
Coin in was 150K VP and 25k slots.
The VP theo was probable 4% so 150k x 4% = $6,000 loss I should have had.
The slot theo was probably 10% so 25k x 10% = $2,500
So my theo for the trip was $8,500 (The amount I should have lost)
The room and upfront freeplay counted only $767 to my comps. (this needs a whole explanation on its own)
I bought about $750 in freeplay from my RC's (When you use your RC's on a trip they are actually counted as comps, even though you have already earned them)
They will use (steal) any RC's you have before you can have back-end comps applied.
I will use all convert all my RC's to free play before I see my host.
So I had a total of $8,500 (theo) x 35% = 2975 available for comps on this trip.
767 Room & Free-play
750 Purchased Free-play
1500 in room charges (shopping, shows and food)
$3017 in comps for the trip.
FYI I actually came home ahead about $1,000 this weekend, because of 2 Royals and 3 A's w/kickers. Also bought about 5k in giftcards from the GGWU.
Aaron I am no where close to your level of play.
Dan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Assuming he is Seven Stars, why do you say it makes zero sense? What is the difference if you cash them out now or save them and cash them out for New Years regardless if you use them for meals or free play? Personally I would rather let my RC's build a little, cash them out for free play allowing me a bigger bankroll to play and possibly even play higher limits.
I've been thinking about this one line:
This is really the truth. What difference does it make?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
The only difference -- and this might be a stretch -- is if without warning Caesars files for bankruptcy or changes the value of the reward credits. In which case "banking" the reward credits creates a risk.
But if you think there is no danger as to the value then it makes no difference if you play them now or later.
AlanQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The level of play is not my point. If you are at a level of play to warrant a host you should be keeping track of your theo and using all available comps when staying in Vegas.
Your room and upfront free-play is not valued at 100%. You can see above they valued my $1,200 in free-play and 2 nights in a 2 bedroom suite at only $767. There is more available for back-end (discresionary) comps.
Aaron, I can't remember paying anything out of pocket except for tips. My regular comps cover everything. I guess my play matches my expenses.
I play only a fraction of what you play. A "big trip" for me is putting on 5000 tier points -- I don't get snywhere near 20-thousand.
So what am I missing?
I assume "My regular comps cover everything" means RC's earned at Rincon or the $500 gift cards.
All that I am saying is that you should not have to use RC's earned at Rincon to pay for dinners in Vegas. With 5000 tier points earned in Vegas you only receive $50 worth of RC's.
People in general seem to be afraid of hosts. Hosts are sells people and make money from our Vegas visits. Everyone should ask a host for their stats on play and theo to make sure they are receiving what they deserve.
And if your host will not provide that info you should find a new host. I have had a few friends that have had that problem with their hosts.
The reason I am posting this info is because there are a lot of people being under comped. I was for over 4 years. I joined your board and many others to find out how to get the comps I deserved.
Aaron I understand what you are saying now. The question is: will our hosts give us discretionary comps without wiping out our RC banks?
Damn, I would have thought they charged your comp account more than that, for a 2-bdrm Panoramic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
I'm wondering if I had a theo of $1000, if they'd comp some food off at the end (staying at Bally's Jubilee of course)
Actually that's NOT what he's saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
With the new(er) rules, they HAVE to wipe your RC balance out BEFORE they "discretionary" comp off...
So, like Aaron is saying, use your RC to purchase FreePlay and/or GiftCards, etc BEFORE asking.
But, Alan, it seems like you have TONS of RC's, so you never ask a host for anything...am I correct?
Timspeed: Unfortunately I don't have tons of RCs.
I am not sure that I am a big enough player that I can use my RCs on free play and expect my host to pick up my restaurant charges or show tickets or other items not in a "package" that I've booked.
Has anyone else had success getting these discretionary comps after first wiping out their RCs on free play and gifts?
Remember I recently wrote how my free play and other offers were cut again. I don't consider myself in Aaron's league.
For the record: right now I have RCs worth $272 and a $500 folio credit for New Years weekend.
I don't want to get too personal here but I think Aaron's advice applies to bigger gamblers. He said above he purchased $5000 in gift cards at the Great Gift Wrapup. Each $100 gift card is 35000 points which represents 35000 tier points earned during the year (not counting GGWU bonuses). But it appears to me Aaron may have a tier score of about 1.5-million before the bonus tier points were added to his account.
I do have just over 1 million tier points this year. Most of my GGWU points came from the Rincon bonuses in October and November. I could receive 192,000 points on each of the 5 Sundays with 4,200 tier point earned.
If you know your theo you can determine what your comps should be. I can ask my host the night before my departure and then I know exactly what I can spend.
Tim - $1,000 theo would be 50,000 coin in on 98% VP or 5,000 tp. With 1,000 tier points earned at 98% VP your theo would only be $200.
I do play a lot of slots so my theo is higher than a player who only plays VP.
Aaron another difference between you and me is that I play either 7/5 or 8/5 Bonus poker at Caesars, while you play Double Double Bonus and slots. I never play slots. Your theo combined with your bigger bets make it easier for your host to give you more comps.
I should also add that while on a "good trip" I might put on 5,000 tier points that is the total over several days of play.
When I play craps I am rated as an "advanced player." Being an "advanced player" does not mean I have any great ability, but it is a code word for someone who plays the bets with the lowest house edge and therefore gets the lowest rating for comps and tier points. While my "average bet" at craps might be $235, because I am an "advanced player" making the low house edge bets my comps and tier points from craps are low as compared to a player who makes hardways bets, hop bets and horn bets which have a very high house edge.
By the way, on my last three trips to Vegas, I don't think my tier points earned ever exceeded about 3,000 points.
I understand that...but if I found a vP machine that gave 4% theo, and put in $25k, I'd have $1000 theo...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
I would imagine with a room at ballys, I could get one meal back-end comped aye?
Alan..if that's the case..then how the HELL did you get to 7Stars?!? Did you literally go multiple times per month???Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Even if you went EVERY WEEK and played 1000TC (To earn 2000TC per WEEK) you'd still not get to 7Star..
Again, once a MONTH, and played 2500TC (7500TC), STILL not gonna do it (90k TC)...
One can earn Seven Stars from just 10 days of play of 5,000 tier credits each, because you earn 10,000 bonus tiers every time you earn 5,000 in a day.
Anyway, Alan, I think Aaron is right. I believe you are an undercomped player (meaning that you could be receiving more comps based upon your play). You don't take free hotel rooms often (only when you're in Vegas), and you never seem to ask for discretionary comps. Despite that, you play on nearly every trip. You might not have the theo that Aaron does, but "spending" your $272 RCs doesn't seem like much of a risk at this point, because you will likely get a return on it. You can also use the trick of booking a hotel through the Starwood partnership, using RCs, and then canceling it when the trip is over to get your RCs back.
While I don't think you would get huge discretionary comps, I think you would earn some.
In fact, why not just call your host and ask if your typical level of play would qualify you for discretionary comps once your RCs are gone?
My current battle is why my $900 free play and gift offers during the fourth quarter were cut to $550 in the first quarter of 2015. And why they were cut from $2500 about 18 months ago.
That might be your "battle", but it's one you probably won't win. Very hard to get them to adjust what the marketing computer spits out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I would suggest just going for the discretionary comps. Find out what you can expect, and then milk them.
BTW, I don't believe that theo is adjusted based upon the VP game you're playing. I think there is one theo level per dollar wagered for slots, and one for VP. I don't think the system cares if you are playing 99.54% JoB or some awful 96% DDB game.
Dan I am surprised you said that. Of course the theo for VP games varies just as the theo for different bets at craps varies and the theo on blackjack and other table games varies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
In my case my theo and offers were cut because of bogus reports of my play at roulette on a day I wasn't even in the casino.
Fixing my offer amount can be worth four thousand dollars or more to me over the course of a year -- a lot more than discretionary comps for some dinners.
Since my host is on my side regarding the bogus reports I am certainly not going to alter the focus over getting a dinner comped.
Choose your battles wisely Dan. Don't mess over the Gatorade when you have champagne at stake.
Alan,
I certainly appreciate you wanting to straighten out the bogus report / roulette thing, anyone would, but do you think your future offers reduction are solely tied to this one erroneous report?
My host told me that this one erroneous report cut my offers in HALF.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
This would be an excellent signature quote for posting on Dan's PFA forum, hahaha.
Also Alan, how can you expect such big offers if you've completely cut off your play for the rest of 2014 aside from freeplay?
I've noticed recently that casinos can respond by sharply reducing freeplay in as little as 6 weeks rather than the standard 2-3 months. Example: I had a decent winning trip during the last week of September (approx. $4,000) and the casino sent me **ZERO** mailers for November/December.
I was referring to Rincon when I commented about how I cut off my play except for free play. I don't go to Vegas that often.
My offers at Rincon have been dropping dramatically, and I've commented about that here. I really question whether I will be playing at Rincon much at all in 2015. Besides, Gwen doesn't like the place and would much rather go to Caesars. Except for Fiore there really aren't dining options at Rincon and entertainment is limited.
Yes, I dramatically reduced my play at Rincon in the fourth quarter and frankly I don't care what happens with their offers in 2015.
My problem with Caesars offers in Vegas is directly tied to the one bogus report. Here is the original post from Nov 11, 2014 in the thread titled "What is your daily theoretical?" which is also on the Las Vegas forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
OK, I now see what you are saying, Alan. Thank you. I remember reading that frustrating report and I should have paid a little closer attention.
I forgot about the bogus roulette session. Yes, you should get that fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Still, I stand behind what I said regarding spending your remaining $273 RCs and getting discretionary comps.
I will be using those RCs over New Year's weekend. Being realistic: I think my host is going to be too busy to bother with me and a request for discretionary comps. There will be a lot of people asking for everything over New Year's, and there will be a lot of big players -- way bigger than I am -- demanding attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Besides all that: I might not be playing that much over New Year's weekend. Table limits will be high, the casinos will be crowded. We're looking forward to a great show and dinners.
But that's not really your problem, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You shouldn't be concerned about the host's workload. Just ask for the discretionary comps and see what happens?
Unless you're not going to play, in which I understand.
Alan, how are you assuring that you are going to get an Augustus room with a view? I had to bend over backwards to get this on New Year's two years ago. I had a little more clout then because I played more, though hotel operations doesn't have access to that. Do you assure this through your host?
Dan you call yourself overcomped yet you have trouble getting an Augustus room with a view for New Years?
Alan, why shouldn't I have trouble? I don't have a host who wants to help me get it, for that very reason -- because I'm overcomped!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Let's just say that I have to make my own things happen at Caesar's.
I am just curious how you personally get this done. Does your host guarantee you a room in Augustus with a strip view and a high floor?
I can't see why anyone would ever choose cash over existing freeplay. At best it will be a neutral swap, and at worst you will really get screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
Here are some ways you can get screwed by "holding" your freeplay until later and using cash instead:
- CET goes bankrupt and RCs get wiped
- CET changes redemption exchange rate for RCs-to-freeplay (this is VERY possible, btw)
- You get sick/injured (or other life emergency) and cannot make it out to a CET property for 6 months, and your RCs expire
- You die
There's just no upside to holding them. You can always supplement freeplay with cash, so if you're willing to spend $500 cash now and use $500 freeplay later, why not just use $500 freeplay now and hold that $500 cash for gambling later? There's no way you can come out behind by doing this!
Let me put it a different way.
Let's say I own a restaurant called "Druff's House", and I give you $50 in Dan Druff Fun Bucks which can be used for $50 of food at my restaurant.
You come into my restaurant today and order $50 of food. Would it EVER make sense to pay cash for it, when you can instead use your Fun Bucks and get it for free? NO. You're just taking a totally unnecessary risk by doing so.
Can someone tell me the upside of holding RCs and spending cash instead?
Nash said, "I would rather let me RCs build a little, cash them out for freeplay, allowing me a bigger bankroll to play and possibly even higher limits". Huh?? You can do THE SAME THING with the cash you are spending on those same games today. Just bank the cash instead of the RCs!
I do not like to trust any business to hold my money (or equivalent) based on an unsecured promise to perform later. In the first week of last November, my wife purchased a pre-paid package of beauty treatments from a beauty-care company with over 100 stores all over the USA. One week later the store she went to was shuttered. A Google search I subsequently undertook produced a press release that the company filed for bankruptcy, let it employees suddenly go, and had alleged it had only $50,000 in assets but $10 million in debts. We will never get the money back as a unsecured creditor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Moral of the story? I guess you can figure it out.
FAB
If you used a credit card do a charge back. All credit cards allow it in the case of bankruptcy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FABismonte
I hold my free play and uses it all in one trip. When you cash RC's for free-play it counts against that trip as comps.
If I hold it and use it on a later trip I can maximize my theo and receive more discretionary comps.
It will be public info when the BK is filed and you will have a few days to use any questionable comps that you are worried about.
I don't think any Trustee, Bk Judge or Receiver would change the comp system. They are there to preserve the value of assets and the gamblers are the corporations most valuable assets.
Any changes to us will likely be after the BK is resolved.
Aaron, I didn't think about the theo/discretionary comps thing. That's actually a valid reason to hold RCs.
But it doesn't sound like Alan's friend is doing it for that reason.
Thanks for the suggestion Aaron, but unfortunately, my wife did not use a credit card. Thankfully the total amount was a few hundred so it won't change our lifestyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
FAB
This is why I say you are now undercomped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Yes I have a host who makes my reservations.
There may not be any notice or warning of a BK or changes to Total Rewards at Caesars.
About 6-8 years ago there was no warning when the cashback program ended.
I've told the story about the LA poker casino that filed for BK without warning. A manager came out on the casino floor and announced all chips were worthless and player accounts were wiped out.
One other thing to consider: if you hit big with the free play you never have to touch your own money. Remember the trip I hit two royals with free play and never opened my own wallet?
That's not what undercomped means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You are actually undercomped, as you are not redeeming as many comps as you could.
I am overcomped. I suck up way too many comps for what my play justifies.
Is my comp power low for a 7 Star? Of course it is. But my theo is low so that makes sense.
The bottom line is that I can still get the rooms I want (usually) with a bit of work and diligence.
But you really can't, can you? Are you getting that high floor in the Augustus Tower with the Bellagio strip view for New Years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
You and I have different views on what are comps. Getting "a room" because you are 7 Stars is not a "comp." It is a basic that comes with the 7 Stars program. Comps are the offers you are not getting: invitations to events, shopping, free play, a host who will handle things for you. They are also those "discretionary comps" that you seem to value so much. What discretionary comps are you getting?
I know 7 Stars players who are overcomped because for some reason they get the maximum offers for not much more play than I have or less play and they have FEWER tier points than I have. For example, (and I've mentioned this to my host), there are craps players who play about the same bets as I make who get $2,500 per offer while I am now cut to $550 per offer. Before the most recent cut I was getting $900 or $1,000 per offer. I asked my host why they get $2,500 per offer with essentially the same play or while they have fewer tier points than I have?
I never received an explanation I could accept. The only thing that seemed plausible was that they made fewer trips and played longer per trip that they made. In other words, I would make ten trips a year staying two nights, but they would make 8 trips a year staying three nights. So while we made the same dollar-value bets Caesars considered them more valuable per-trip.
By the way, it's good to have a relationship with a host. Did I tell you about the time I was ill and my host extended my stay an additional day and sent Gatorade, tea and food to my room at no charge?
I'm not understanding where you're going with this.
Is it true that I no longer get much freeplay, shows, or food comps? Yes.
Is it true that I have essentially been reduced to the core 7 Stars benefits? Yes.
But that's fine. I had regular food/freeplay comps for awhile, but those died out because my theoretical losses are very low, and my redemption of benefits is very high. I totally understand why I don't get these things anymore, and in fact expected that to happen sooner or later. I don't regret my pattern of play, because my objective was to earn Seven Stars and get the guaranteed benefits it offers. Note that I haven't put a single penny of my own money into CET machines the entire year of 2014.
What do you suggest I do (or should have done)? Played enough to keep up these benefits? I would have likely lost a lot of money in doing so.
I won't know if I am getting the high floor Augustus strip view room on New Year's until I can call there the day before and block the room. I will likely be able to manage it, though.
I didn't hear about your story about being ill and getting the food/tea/Gatorade at no charge, but again, you DID pay for that stuff, just not directly on that particular day. You paid for it with your regular play of negative expectation games.
The bottom line is that I can make good use of the 7 Stars basic benefits to where they are worth a good deal to me, which is why I earn 7 Stars in the first place. If I don't get anything on top of that, it's no big deal.
I like to trash CET a lot out here, but I am not criticizing them at all for killing my freeplay and other benefits. If I were in charge of CET, I would kill those benefits of players like me, as well.
My point Dan is that you can't call yourself "overcomped" anymore. Those reading the forum should not get the idea that you can milk the comps forever. You also run the risk of losing not only the 7Stars rank you covet but also Diamond if indeed you played zero dollars in 2014.
I think for most consumers moderate play throughout the year is a better option than pounding the machines in short order to maintain 7stars or even Diamond. Most of us have an entertainment budget that is spread over a year. To maintain 7stars you will have to pump in $500000 coin in short order.
I think that's a bigger mistake than saving Reward Credits for free play.
Regarding the offer from my host when I was ill: there are a lot of extras I get that I don't discuss publicly.
What risk am I running of losing 7 Stars if I renew it by 3/31/15?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I suppose they could kick me out of the program, but that's not likely, as I haven't done anything bad or against their rules.
You are probably correct that the optimal play regarding a steady stream of comps involves moderate play spread throughout the year, with very few no-play trips.
However, that isn't practical for me, for various reasons I won't get into.
I disagree that pumping in the $500k coin-in in a short period of time is something bad. It's the same thing as spreading it over a year. I am not on a tight budget, so it doesn't matter to me whether I pump in the entire $500k in a short time or if it's spread out. There are only two things that matter -- my actual win/loss, and my expected win/loss. Neither of those improve if I spread out my play.
I don't have any budgets. Keep in mind that I am a very frugal person and am obsessed with "value" with nearly every dollar I spend. That is, I don't like cheap crap, and I'm willing to pay for quality, but I always seek to get the best deal and the biggest bang for my buck, while still enjoying the lifestyle I want. At the same time, I am financially comfortable enough not to have to deal with "entertainment budgets" or any other kind of budget for that matter. I'm not criticizing you for having a budget, but rather stating that I don't operate that way, and my high degree of financial discipline makes budgeting unnecessary.
Simply put, spending $6000 in December is the same to me as spending $500 every month from January-December. Many people would prefer to spend the $500 each month because they "feel" it less, but I don't care which order the money is spent if it breaks out the same.
I can indeed call myself "overcomped" because that's what I am, and that's what CET considers me. No matter which way you slice it, I am using more CET resources than my play has earned -- or will earn. These may be resources you personally don't value or enjoy, but to me they are important.
I don't try to give anyone the impression that you can milk things forever. You can't. Things constantly change. I have been very open about the fact that my food/show/freeplay comps have fallen to almost zero in Vegas. I still get some at the Rincon, but not enough to make it worth going there (at least Vegas is an interesting destination, whereas Rincon isn't).
I'm sure your host has done some nice things for you. By your own admission, you racked up 1 million tiers in 2013, and a fair number in other years. Even though you dialed it down somewhat in 2014, you still played a good amount while using few CET resources. You're the type of customer CET wants, except perhaps aside from the fact that you mainly stick to the best paytables and know perfect strategy.
So of course you are getting some nice things done for you. You've earned it!
I haven't earned it, and I never will. That's fine. A million tier credits at Aces and Faces is a theoretical loss of almost $25k, and that's if you do the bonus tier credit earning perfectly, which I know you weren't always doing. If you run badly with hitting your share of royals, that can easily turn into MUCH worse loss. I know you had better than average luck and probably didn't lose that much, but there's no way I am risking that type of money in -EV games just so I can get better comps and better treatment.
The absolute cheapest/easiest way to get 7Stars for 2015, would be to go 10 trips in a year, split between Vegas/Rincon/Reno-Tahoe (Three separate markets)
All three of these markets have 8/5 Bonus Poker, which earn 1TC per $10 (it's at Bally's, in Vegas, for Dollars)
Take 10 trips, in where you either earn 2500TC per day x2 (two consecutive days) or 5000TC in one day.
For me, what I think I'm going to do, is wait until March to start earning TC, to see what effects the bankruptcy is going to have on TR (if any).
Then take alternating trips to earn 7Star (I realize that playing strictly "good" video poker will make my ADT look like shit), but as Dan Druff said, the 7Star perks are worth more than having a high ADT.
Under the current circumstances, I think that is a very good idea. Why spend money on a program that you won't want to be part of starting in April?Quote:
Originally Posted by timspeed
Actually 8-5 bonus is a much worse game than 9-6 JoB.Quote:
Originally Posted by timspeed
Your expected loss at 8-5 bonus is 80.4% greater than 9-6 JoB!
The variance is higher, too, as 8-5 bonus requires hitting your proper share of big paying quads.
It is true that there isn't really a good option in the Vegas market, especially if you want to play $5/credit. The good games all give you 1 tier per $50 instead of $10, which is terrible.
The best-return, lowest-variance game is 1-play JoB, which can be found at the $5 denomination at Harrah's Reno. I believe that's the only CET property with this game in the west. I know that Harrah's New Orleans also has the game, as do a few others around the country.
There are some 3-play 99.54% JoB games in Lake Tahoe, which are the same odds as 1-play but more variance. I suppose running those at $1 or $2 is also a decent option.
You are correct that the easiest way is to simply do 10 days of 5,000 tier credit play, and you will earn Seven Stars.
This could actually be accomplished with two trips which last less than 48 hours, and then a third trip lasting less than 72 hours.
This is because the "play day' usually ends at 4-6am, not midnight. So you can show up at night, run your 5,000 tiers, get your 10k bonus tiers, then do the same the next day, and then do the same the next morning and go home. So you're there less than 48 hours, and you will have earned 45,000 tier credits for just $150,000 coin-in!
That's what I plan to do. Not sure where I'll do it yet, as Reno/Tahoe is a bit far from me. I'll probably just do it in Tahoe and combine it with a ski trip or something.