Anyone in Freemonts sharpshooter club?
http://vitalvegas.com/craps-players-...remont-casino/
Printable View
Anyone in Freemonts sharpshooter club?
http://vitalvegas.com/craps-players-...remont-casino/
Never been there and didn't know about the digital counter. Is there a boxman there to control it? Casinos that offer the All, Tall, Small bet need a boxman as each number rolled must be marked. Caesars dropped boxmen years ago to save money.
I have never joined the Sharpshooter club but when I have played at Fremont, I recall there was a boxman there to press the numbers. Often no number were pressed until either many numbers were rolled, or the shooter complained. Then they pushed the counter to the estimated numbers. I recall the "prizes" were cheap casino swag (e.g. pens, mugs). While I liked the generally Hawaiian clientele at the Fremont craps table, I stopped playing there because it only had double odds on the passline -- the worst odds I could find in Las Vegas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
FAB
While the "worst odds" it is actually what the average player bets in craps. I know a lot of players crave casinos with 10x odds or even 100x odds when Casino Royale had it -- but the reality is the average craps player only bets double odds -- or sometimes single odds or no odds.Quote:
Originally Posted by FABismonte
Besides, betting odds won't make you win. The odds you bet will not make the dice hit the number you need. The reality is higher odds are offered by casinos in an attempt to lure bigger bets. Since the casino is more likely to win that odds bet, the higher odds offered the more money the casino is likely to win.
I once met a high roller friend at Casino Royale who bet 100x odds -- and I watched him dump $25,000 in less than half an hour. Betting full odds doesn't make you win, sorry.
The odds bet has no advantage to the house, (the house advantage is on the line) so in your lifetime it shouldn't matter how you play it.
However you have to have a bankroll to sustain it and few have the bankroll for 100x odds. You hit a bad set of rolls and bust out and the casino wins your money before you can get to the good rolls.
Personally I only play double odds, it is all I can afford. Doesn't matter if the table is 3,4,5 or 100x.
I guess that is how the take for a craps table can be 14-20% when the basic bets are 1.5% advantage. I guess prop bets help the casino there.
I am sorry that you fell for this hook, line and sinker.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoeIncarnate
While there is no "house advantage" on the odds bet, there is also no "player advantage." But (and this is very important) the odds bet is linked to the passline bet and the house IS ALWAYS MORE LIKELY TO WIN THE PASSLINE BET. Therefore, the house is MORE LIKELY TO WIN THE ODDS BET even if the odds bet is paid with NO HOUSE ADVANTAGE.
The fact that the odds bet has no house advantage with the payoff does not mean you have an equal chance of winning it. In fact, you have less than an even chance of winning it.
True, there is no "player advantage" either.
Lately, I have been staying off the pass line at least until a shooter makes a point or when I shoot and am required to make a line bet. Instead, I just place the point for the total amount I would have bet on pass line with odds. Regardless of what the point number is the winning outcome is greater than winning with P.L. and odds.
For example:
Point of 4 or 10
$5 pass line with double odds = $15 outlay
Winning bet = $25 payoff
Placing the point for $15 = $15 outlay
Winning bet = $27
Down side is missing out on come out naturals, somewhat offset by also missing out on come out craps.
Danny you recognize the fault in not making the passline bet, so why do you continue? If you are looking for the true best bet in craps it is the pass on the first roll, or the come bet on subsequent rolls.
Alan--I have to disagree with you that the true best bet in craps is pass or come. With respect to the house advantage (H-A), the H-A on a pass or come bet is 1.41%. The H-A if you place the 6 or 8 is only .46%.
Of course, you lower the H-A when you take odds on the pass or come as the H-A is leveraged down by the odds which have no H-A. So the more odds you take, the lower the H-A on the pass or come.
Now I have long taken Danny's position that you are better off placing the bet rather than betting pass or come, unless or until you start taking large odds. If you just take double odds, then as Danny says, the payoffs are the same or better by placing the bet.
For example:
$15 place on the nine will pay $21.
$5 pass with 10 odds on the 9 will pay 20.
Now, in Illinois-Indiana, we have 100x odds and I will use them if the game is good. So a $5 pass with 100 odds on the 9 will pay $155, while placing the 9 for 105 will pay 145. Now, the pass with odds is better.
The best strategy, in my opinion, is to start out placing until you are in a position to take large odds. Then, if the casino allows, use "put"bets rather than pass or come and leave them up when they hit. This way, you don't just get paid every other like you do with come bets.
There are other factors. One important one to consider is that many casinos do not count the odds bet when rating your play. In that case, it is far better to place your bets as the comps etc will be far greater. In my case, my initial bet is around $450 to $550. If 90% of that was from odds, my comps would be nothing at a casino where odds are not counted. However if that same amount is instead placed, I am now a hi roller. Big difference to consider.
Alan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I admit it hurts not being on the line when multiple (or any) naturals are made, but I'm not willing to cede that it is always better than bypassing and placing. I get the math, and do play the pass, just not as automatically as I used to.
Thanks Regnis,Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
Did not know that about casinos not counting odds towards one's rating. I'm in Oregon and we have 5x odds. I always assumed they counted and will definitely inquire when we go Friday. If odds are not counted then the debate is a no brainer.
Where did you get this from? Everything I see says the edge on the place 6 or 8 is 1.52%.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
See for references:
http://casinogambling.about.com/od/o.../crapsedge.htm
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/
That used to be the case at Caesars Palace, but about two or three years ago they started including odds.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
Alan-also from the Wizard, but I was looking at the per roll rather than the per resolution because it was phrased as "best bet" as if 1 roll.
http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/...ngtheHouseEdge
Just glad to see some craps players here. Now where are the horse players??
On a per roll basis the passline bet is still better than placing the 6 or 8. On a per roll the HA on the passline is 0.42%
Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
Regnis,
I inquired the other night about the odds bet being counted towards my rating, and was told they do not. The boxman that I talked to (nice guy) not that far removed from being a dealer said he always gives me a "good" rating but that the odds dont count. The table was fairly busy and I could tell he didnt really want to talk to much about it.
Needless to say, I wasnt on the line very often.
Dannyj which casino was this?
When I first started playing craps Caesars counted odds... then they stopped...
And now they count them again.
Danny--hope that isn't a Caesars property as that would indicate that they went back to not counting odds.
If they didn't count odds in Illinois, everyone would be a $5 better because we have 100 x odds at most places. In Vegas, with 3-4-5 x odds I still prefer place bets, and certainly if odds don't count.
Atlantic City Caesars I got mixed answers as to whether they count odds so I just placed.
Alan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The casino is Seven Feathers, in Canyonville Oregon, right off the I-5
Hold it. I hope you guys are not using "comps" as your reason for betting odds. If you are doing that then you are playing for comps which is a cardinal sin. You bet odds when you think the shooter will hit the number AND THE COMPS DON'T MATTER.
Alan,
I take odds when I bet pass or come because it lower the house edge. That does not mean I have the advantage over house, just that their edge is reduced. Now that I know that they don't count the odds bet towards my rating here in Oregon I will place the point for $30, instead of $5 pass line and $25 odds. Thank you regnis for opening my eyes to this.
I have never played for comps and unlike Dandruff am probably undercomped because I hate to ask for anything and have always gotten whatever I want or need anyway.
Years ago I did all the math (don't have the energy now-lol) as to the theoretical loss and the percentage of the theo that is returned as comps and I found that where the odds are not counted, the loss of comps far outweighed the slight difference in the odds or house edge. It was not even close. So I have altered my play at Caesars accordingly, although at this point I just prefer place and buy bets and not worrying about the 7 or craps on the come-out. Unless I am the shooter and have to bet the pass, I wait for the point to be established and place it unless they allow put bets (and count the odds on the put bet).
Again--remember that placing the 6 for 50 pays 60. A 10 pass with 40 odds pays 58. So at that level Danny is not losing anything except comps. When you get up to the level at which I play, those comps are significant. I f I have 500 out there in place bets or buy bets, the return in comps in that theoretical loss far outweighs the lesser payoff for the place bet vs. the pass or come. Admittedly, the payoff is slightly less than if I took odds when you get to more than 5x odds. But again, the comp value is significantly more (especially when I'm tossing black chips on the hard 10).
So it is not playing longer or betting more to get comps which is a sin, it is playing to the casino's rules re counting odds for comps.
I'm really interested in seeing more about this, especially since it's a mystery what/how Caesars comps for table games.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
How do you figure the comps for average bets?
So, you admit that comps determine your betting.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyj
Well, in this instance, i suppose they (comps) do. I'm making a wager that earns comps that is equal to another wager that does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Again-as long as he is not betting more or playing more to earn comps, all he is doing is betting his regular amount in a manor that will earn him more comps than the traditional pass and come with odds.
My other problem with come bets as opposed to place bets is that you get paid on every other time the number appears, whereas on the place bet you get paid each time.
This is the #1 problem with "come betting." You need a repeater to win money with come bets, and the reality is that the average shooter throws the dice only something like five times which doesn't give you much chance for repeaters.Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
But if I were a darkside player, I definitely would use a "don't come" strategy with odds because the average shooter only throws the dice about five times.
Still... I would like to know what you know about the comp formula for table players? If you are going to say that place betting gets better comps than odds betting, just what are the comps/amounts/rates you are talking about?
HUH?!Quote:
Originally Posted by regnis
Placing the 6 for $50 is a bad place, but I'm sure they'll do it..
$48 pays $56, then the $2 breakage will pay even money, so $2; for a total of $58, NOT $60.
A $10 pass line with $40 odds on the 6 will pay $58 indeed...
Is that what you meant? Both will pay the same?
REALISTICALLY, if you can FIND ONE; a Casino that lets you buy for $30 and only pay $1 vig (on the win) would be the best bet/theo earner.
$30 would win you
6/8 = $36
5/9 = $44 ($45 - $1 vig)
4/10 = $59 ($60 - $1 vig)
The last time I did this, it was at GrandSierra Resort (Reno) I did this for a few weeks...then the floor supervisor saw me doing it and put a QUICK stop to it (because I was getting rated for basically a $30 place bet with only giving up ~1% HE.)
So, I had to go down to a $24 bet ($25 on the 4/10 for ease for the dealers)
6/8 = $28
5/9 = $35 ($36 - $1 vig)
4/10 = $49 ($50 - $1 vig)
However, almost ZERO places let you buy the 5/9...Hell, only a couple let you pay vig on win only, on the 4/10...
Caesars Palace used to charge the vig on the 4/10 buy but about 8-10 years ago they switched to pay on the win.
At Rincon you pay when you make the bet and pay again to keep the bet up after a win.