$5 craps is back at Caesars Palace in Vegas. Only on the weekends. Only on the one table in the Forum Casino. The Firebet is not on this table.
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$5 craps is back at Caesars Palace in Vegas. Only on the weekends. Only on the one table in the Forum Casino. The Firebet is not on this table.
Hi Alan:
I did not even know there were craps tables at the Forum Casino area. Any idea why the Firebet is not on the table but is on the others?
FAB
I was told that the FB on the $5 table was REMOVED because it hit too many times. That doesn't mean $5 players are better shooters but these might be the real factors:
1. Because it's a $5 minimum the table is always full which means more shooters and more chances for someone to get lucky.
2. Because bets are smaller at this table when a FB hits it hurts the bottom line more.
I was at Caesars Sunday and played on this table. I started with a $100 buy in and a young lady with only $5 on the pass rolled for about a half hour and made what would have been a 4 - point Firebet if offered. I made about $250 on her roll but a guy who came to the table and bought in for $800 walked away with $3500+ . The table was full with 10 players and imagine if everyone made the Firebet? At $10 bet each that would have been 10 x $250 = $2500 paid out just on the fire, so that's a good example of how Caesars could have been socked.
Having spent chunks of every football weekend at Caesars in its heyday, with bettors routinely firing 10K and 20K bets at them pre-inflation, I find it more than disturbing and a little ridiculous that Caesars Palace -- THE Caesars Palace -- would worry about such a thing. But welcome to the 2015 CET flagship.
Either they believe in the math or they don't. Either they run a world class casino or they don't.
Some of us poke fun at what Caesars has become (a paranoid, weak-kneed Harrah's hotel, basically) when we visit. I'll explain in another thread, but for now, let me just say that it is utterly a joke that one of the (formerly) premier casinos in the world could concern itself with a fire bet at a $5 craps table. I mean, if Caesars Palace -- THE Caesars Palace -- actually concerns itself with such a thing, how are we to expect a lower end CET property to behave?
It's utterly ridiculous.
Alan-I have never been much of a fire bet better. But like any other bet in the casino, I assume the odds are with the house and that caesars would welcome all the $5.00 players to bet a buck or 2 on a -EV bet, knowing that it will hit now and then but also knowing that like every other -EV bet they win the grind.
Anyone know the odds??
I took a picture of the $5 minimum bet sign which I will post later. When I took the photo the dealers were talking about the last time there was a $5 craps table. I said the last time I saw one was 2001 but it wasn't really a $5 table. It was a $10 table without players and my brother in law asked for a reduction to $5 since no one was playing. The box man said yes and we had a $5 game.
Here's the photo (sorry it's blurry) but you can see that the minimum is $5. Curiously the maximum bet is $5,000 and not $50,000 which is the maximum bet on the other craps tables in the Palace Casino at Caesars -- even those with a minimum of $10.
As I mentioned before this $5 craps table is in the Forum casino which is the "lower priced" casino at Caesars with lower limit games and penny slots and 25-cent video poker galore.
Years ago Caesars had four and then three craps tables in the Forum casino in addition to the six craps tables in the Palace Casino under the "dome" which is the main "room" at Caesars. When the craps tables were removed from the Forum casino, one table was added to the Palace Casino. There is also a "private table" in a room off of the Palace Court high limit table room (not to be confused with the Palace Court slot room). I played on that private table in a small craps tournament that Caesars had about ten years ago -- and if I recall only 20 players were invited and it was held early on a Saturday morning (8am if I recall).
Nevada has an open gaming law which means if that private table is ever in use, any member of the public should be allowed to walk in and watch the action, but I have no idea when or if it is in use.
I should also point out that the tables this past weekend were $10 and $15 minimums in the Palace Casino -- and I didn't see any $25 minimum tables. I found this surprising considering that the casino was jammed this weekend. But a lot of people were there for the Electric Daisy Music Festival and I don't think they were craps players.
Quite surprised that a high end casino like Caesars would offer $5 craps even if it was for short while. I would feel comfortable laying full 3-4-5 odds on the pass line (thats all I bet for craps). A little more uneasy at $10 minimums. I wonder how craps play is rated with so many players and so many different bets to keep track of. Can this help players reach Platinum or Diamond in a day?
I know that these days, the theoretical for Blackjack is so low that you need to bet $50 for a long time, or $100 per hand for an hour to get any decent comps.
For me, the only thing I do at Caesars is to go to the Bacchanal Buffet.
If you play low level craps at Caesars -- $5, $10 or even $15 you will have a very hard time reaching 7 Stars. A very hard time. Even if you bet "across" and make center-table bets.
The tier points awarded for craps play are small.
Not having the fire bet would probably be about the speed of the game and not having to explain it to all the newbies. It might also help keep the regular craps players off the table and on higher limit tables.
Fire bet has like a 20% house edge so the costing money argument doesn't make sense. http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/
Roe how long does it take to book the Firebet? And how long does it take to remove them when lost? Speed or time can't possibly be a reason for removing the Firebet from that table.
I would think removing the firebet from the $5 table may have to do with the licensing fee's...but I could be wrong (I always thought the license fees were PER TABLE, rather than just PER CASINO)
timspeed you are correct. License fees are per table, and as I mentioned initially because it's a low bet table the revenue might not justify it. Also, the dealers told me the table has generated a lot of payoffs on the Firebet and that could also weigh on the decision.
First off, never believe anything dealers or pit personnel tell you. Second, even casinos can be superstitious just like players. Past payoffs have no bearing on the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
True...but if you look at them taking out the "Six Card Royal $1M payout" on 3CP and UTH...then it should be an indication that they are VERY scared of paying off large amounts (even though they have a HUGE advantage on that bet AND the FireBet)Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
I can't speak for the fire bet, but lowering the payoff on the six card bonus actually increases their edge against the suckers that play it.
Jbjb I actually have a profit on the fire bet thanks to two $5,000 pays (Rio and Rincon ) and probably a half dozen 5 - point pays of which 3 were at Rincon at $1250 and 3 at Caesars at $2500 each. While these big pays are rare, when they happen they offset a lot of losing bets. I've stopped counting the 4 point pays but I get one about 1/3 trips. There was a 4 pointer over Father's Day at Caesars for $250.
Some people win 9 figures in the lottery. Doesn't make it smart to play it. And by no means am I not saying it's stupid either. You bet your money any way you wish. I don't play craps since there is not a single way to gain an advantage except maybe buying someone's don't pass bet when they want to pick it up after a point is established. I'll stick with sloppy card dealers.
I find it odd that CET only dropped the $1mm payout to $100k for 3CP, Ultimate etc at some of the Vegas properties. PH is still a $1mm bonus.
It was nothing more than a gimmick in the first place. Hype it up when they first came out with it, then lower it after the suckers are hooked on it. Even with the million, their edge was well over 20%. Exactly how they promoted bringing the single deck blackjack back starting at Ballys paying that "whopping 6:5!" Absolutely atrocious! And the suckers had no clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckylisa
As for the fire bet. A few big payoffs didn't affect them not having it on the $5 table. If so, they'd remove it from ALL tables.
Okay jbjb what's your idea about why the Firebet was removed from this one table?
Honestly, no clue. Makes no sense to me for sure. I'd still take anything a dealer or pit supervisor tells me with a grain of salt. But if what they said was true, I seriously would expect them to remove it from all tables.
I think what they said makes perfect sense: too many big payouts on a low revenue table. When i was there most of the players had a $5 pass bet with no odds. I saw three shooters have 15-20 minute rolls with less than $20 on the table. That won't subsidize a Firebet.
It's very possible. I'm not saying it'll never happen. Like I said, even some casino managers are superstitious. I've seen crappy double deck blackjack games get removed because of short term positive variance on the players side. And I'm talking about civilians, not card counters or other forms of blackjack AP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
At Rincon a few years ago the $100 video poker machines were removed because too many royals had been hit. They were all negative expectation games but the Tribe was tired of issuing $400,000 checks. I had dinner with Rincon's top gun and he said the Tribe didn't care about short term variance they just wanted those games outta there.
They probably don't have the bankroll for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Probably right -- they don't have the bankroll for $100 video poker. I guess that's why Rincon gives away $1-million twice a year, and ten other months out of the year they give away $100,000 per month.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
That's different, because they can "control" that (give that money away to people who they KNOW will give it right back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The $100 royals came off of PURE LUCK, and therefore cannot be guaranteed that the player will play again, so that $400k CAN walk out the door.
Casinos are very short-sighted, often times.
Sure they don't care if you hit a WAP, because they're not the ones who has to pay them (Megabucks, ShuffleMaster, etc)
But hit a super lucky "standard" hit (ie: $100 VP RoyalFlush) and the casino manager/higher-ups will shit their pants and react in panic!
For example, I was pretty frequent at JANugget in Reno; so I was friends with a lot of the employees, including the senior casino manager...he told me that once, a non-player came in, and hit a super-lucky DEALT royal on $1 10-play (highest amount royal you could win in this casino; $40k) and the Ascuagas FLIPPED OUT and wanted any video poker that would allow for higher than a $8000 royal removed! He tried to calm them down as much as he could.. But they still ended up removing a LOT of $5 denom single-line, and all their $1/$2 multiplay...
The Ascuagas sold it finally, and they now have the FireBet, but it's the crappy payoff one (starts paying at 3 points, and I think only pays 200:1 on all 6)
Really? You think some random guy walked in off the street, inserted five Benjamins into a video poker machine, pressed the deal button and the good fairy gave him a royal... and then showed him to the door after making him swear never to play again?Quote:
Originally Posted by timspeed
That's more probable than someone who "wins" one of those casino drawings, NOT giving the money back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Large casinos like Caesars are willing to take chances on high variance games, provided the math shows that it's +EV for them in the long run.
Small operations like the Rincon are much more risk-averse, as the odd big jackpot from a non-regular can really hurt their bottom line, and they often have a hard time waiting for the "long run", fearing that a few lucky high rollers can really cause them fits.
Just getting back to the topic: why was the Firebet REMOVED when the Forum craps game was reduced to $5 minimum bet?