Robotic Arm and Dice Control

Yes. If someone built a robotic arm that "threw" two dice the same way consistently it would prove dice control.

If two dice were set the same way every time and thrown to the same spot on the table every time and hit the back wall the same way every time you would have control. Only the dice set would have to be changed to attain the desired number.

A robotic arm would prove DC and DI are possible.

Unfortunately no human can duplicate the exact same toss like a robotic arm. So the best we humans can do is try to minimize the movement of the dice.

Minimizing movement means influencing the dice as much as possible. So we try for soft throws at the same angle while trying to reach the back wall hitting under the pyramids in the center where the wall is flat.

We can never attain the perfection of a robotic arm but we can try.

First rule is try to limit the rotation of the dice and the speed and angle of the throw. Second rule is to hit the back wall in the space under the pyramids. Then hope for luck.

But I am sure you will see that the harder you work at controlling the throw the luckier you will be with the results.

And remember no one said you have to hit the pyramids.

This is an excellent point, and I can't believe nobody else thought of it, but we didn't. Robotic arms would demonstrate the possibility of human dice control. That brings up another interesting point. I think we have to assume that there's a good chance some casino, somewhere, somehow, also thought of this and probably has tested it already.

P.S. It really bothers me that I didn't consider this. I have a small glass sculpture of a forearm and hand throwing two dice, and anyone who owns that really needed to think of it.

AHigh tried this, remember?

Why do you think they used to call me "TOBOR"?

I don't think Ahigh from the WOV forum had a true robotic arm. Ahigh is not close to a dice controller based on his videos -- his throws are erratic.

Ya know, I've never watched. Just build a solid platform and have some mechanical device push the dice off of it at the exact same speed and exact same setup.

If proven to really work, you'd stand out more than a card counter actually adding and subtracting out loud at a table and betting accordingly. At that point, all casinos will just make you pick them up and throw them and no setting allowed.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Robotic arms would demonstrate the possibility of human dice control.

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Lol.

A simple physics proof of a few lines already out there on the advanced science forums a decade ago. For the totally uninitiated, a matter of translation and rotation. Take your pick. Pick one to control: rotational craziness (in flight) versus translational craziness (in flight) off the sponge. Energy, momentum, drag, etc, aren't physical quantities which can be held. Hell, no one has even seen energy, or knows what it is. For everything known about light, eg, nobody knows what it is either, though we "see" it all the time. Either you pin it down to a point, or you let it go and guess where is the photon. In between, literally all hell breaks loose. We still don't know theoretically does it travel with constant velocity. Even that stuff is a debate in a debate in another debate.

Forum people have no clue. All you have to do is ask the real academics. Shackleford is a complete twit who still even wouldn't get anything out of asking. No wonder his forum is half-dead, and was a joke all along. How comically funny can people get? F***. Now, the Donald is in on the action.

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Originally Posted by OneHitWonder

...Forum people have no clue. All you have to do is ask the real academics. Shackleford is a complete twit who still even wouldn't get anything out of asking. No wonder his forum is half-dead, and was a joke all along. How comically funny can people get? F***. Now, the Donald is in on the action.

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Aww, did someone piss in your Wheaties this morning?

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Ya know, I've never watched. Just build a solid platform and have some mechanical device push the dice off of it at the exact same speed and exact same setup.

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But that would not simulate anything meaningful. You want the robot to throw two dice to the exact same spot with the exact same speed an angle adjusted to bounce off the table and reaching the back wall with the same rotation. That is what "dice influencing" tries to do.

Having two dice slide down a shoot ala what was done on WOV is pointless.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

If proven to really work, you'd stand out more than a card counter actually adding and subtracting out loud at a table and betting accordingly. At that point, all casinos will just make you pick them up and throw them and no setting allowed.

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Are you familiar with me being thrown out of MGM and NYNY and Bellagio because it APPEARED that I was controlling the dice?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Are you familiar with me being thrown out of MGM and NYNY and Bellagio because it APPEARED that I was controlling the dice?

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Yes I've read your stories. Casinos throw people out for all sorts of reasons. Was your incidents at the advent of the DI movement? I doubt they'd toss you now.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But that would not simulate anything meaningful. You want the robot to throw two dice to the exact same spot with the exact same speed an angle adjusted to bounce off the table and reaching the back wall with the same rotation. That is what "dice influencing" tries to do.

Having two dice slide down a shoot ala what was done on WOV is pointless.

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It's a stepping stone. If it doesn't work here, it'll never work with a robot.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

It's a stepping stone. If it doesn't work here, it'll never work with a robot.

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To the contrary. It won't work with a simple slide. Only a robot could have enough control.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

To the contrary. It won't work with a simple slide. Only a robot could have enough control.

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Then it'll never work.

Of course it would work with a robot. It's basic physics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you have a controlled shot that hits the same place on the table it will react the same way. Once that is demonstrated all of you naysayers will at least say "dice control is possible." That doesn't mean a human can do it. But it would make the WOV forum wake up to realize it is possible.

To date the only thing that has been demonstrated on the WOV forum -- and everywhere on YouTube -- is fake dice control. The reason for that may be that so few people can do it, and I am sure no one can do it consistently enough that it could be videotaped several times in a row.

On WOV we've seen countless videos from "Ahigh" which has dice bouncing all over the layout and he called that a controlled shot. I laughed my butt off at that.

Then there was the video of the slide down the chute but each time the dice came to rest on different faces and that was because the slide down the chute was not controlled or uniform.

Looking at that "evidence" and the other videos on YouTube all you could say was dice control and dice influencing is a hoax.

It may be a hoax that it can be taught. But the science behind it is real.

As I said, having a human actually do it is the issue.

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Originally Posted by regnis

Why do you think they used to call me "TOBOR"?

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Regnis, I watched "Eighth Man" religiously. You're in good shape as long as you don't run into "Samantha Seven."

Showing our age red

Aren't you spitting into the face of Frank Scoblete by inferring no human can control dice? He gets laughed at enough for this nonsense just about everywhere else.

I've told Frank that I reject the use of the phrase dice control. I know that he uses it interchangeably with dice influencing. The bottom line is NO ONE actually believes in control.

But if a robot can be shown to control dice then we might be able to convince the naysayers that INFLUENCING is possible.

Right now few believe even in influencing.

Many who doubt DI or DC or whatever you want to call it have a great misunderstanding of exactly what it is. It does not mean that you can walk up to the table and roll whatever you want whenever you want, or roll in perpetuity without getting a 7.
Rather, it is the ability to delay the 7, even if only for a short time, as that short time turns a negative game positive. So if you can delay the 7 to 1 of 10 rather than 1 of 6, you are in positive territory. The whole thing has morphed into a belief that you can walk up and have hour long rolls every time, and that is not the case.

And please also remember that we are not robots and we do miss our spot and we do have bad tosses. That doesn't mean the result will be a 7. You can get away with a bad toss and live to toss again. So if you are consistently hitting your spot, and yes, missing a few as well, you are still delaying the 7 and that is the goal.

However, that being said, I, and others that I know, have had many more consistently positive rolls, and many more huge rolls, than can be credited to pure luck.

I wouldn't want to prove anything new to anyone. All it can do is ruin a great opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Aren't you spitting into the face of Frank Scoblete by inferring no human can control dice? He gets laughed at enough for this nonsense just about everywhere else.

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Because he's not an AP. He's an AT, Armchair Theoretician.

The best DI is one who can roll a seven more often than average. When it arrives he wins all his bets!

Robots don't play craps, and they're nothing more than machines that could never be guaranteed to throw identical throws anyway. More consistent maybe, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Because he's not an AP. He's an AT, Armchair Theoretician.

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I think Frank has claimed to be a DI and has reported some monster rolls when he was with GTC.

And I am certain the DI camp believes they are advantage players as well.

It seems to me just about everyone these days claims to be an advantage player -- even when they lose.

"Advantage players" don't lose. They simply create winning years out of thin air made up of slot club fluff, drawings theoretical value, tournament theoretical value and the like. The only problems they run into are private, such as divorces, late car payments, and denials when they try to deposit all their phantom bucks into their accounts.

Look no further than the Wizard for a good example. All those phantom bucks and nowhere to go but begging for money from his forum members. But you might be able to buy love with them.

Lol @ made up winnings.

I used to hang out with a self described "advantage player" at Rincon. I watched him decline from 25-cent video poker to where he had no money to play at all. Yet he continued to call himself an advantage player because he looked through the various slot machines at progressives that were guaranteed to hit at certain levels, and he looked through abandoned multipliers. But with all his "advantage play" he still was nothing more than a 25-cent player who lost all his comps, free stays, and when he had a bad run couldn't even make a trip on the bus to Rincon for a month.

The way the WOV folks challenge the dice influencers to show a profit playing craps, I would like a self described AP to show me their profits playing. Frankly, I want to see if their profits are greater than a real job at In N Out.

VP is worse than counting cards.

That's why there are so many self-described AP's floating around. They say they will not play in a "negative" situation, and then comes the foolishness of "it's a $35/hr play so I'm making $350 a day on it!"

That penniless clown mickeycrimm thrives on such rhetoric. It's gotten so out of hand that he even claims to be making six figures a year playing (now get ready)...ADVANTAGE KENO ACROSS MONTANA!! :)

Phantom bucks. Worth their weight in gold.

Someone should go there and investigate it then.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I used to hang out with a self described "advantage player" at Rincon. I watched him decline from 25-cent video poker to where he had no money to play at all. Yet he continued to call himself an advantage player because he looked through the various slot machines at progressives that were guaranteed to hit at certain levels, and he looked through abandoned multipliers. But with all his "advantage play" he still was nothing more than a 25-cent player who lost all his comps, free stays, and when he had a bad run couldn't even make a trip on the bus to Rincon for a month.

The way the WOV folks challenge the dice influencers to show a profit playing craps, I would like a self described AP to show me their profits playing. Frankly, I want to see if their profits are greater than a real job at In N Out.

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Do you think AP is made-up fiction, very difficult and few can do it....or something else? Do you think some forms are possible and others aren't (ie: BJ can be beaten, but slots and VP can't be beaten). What about really good promotions (I don't mean bad promotions like GGWU or 4oak bonuses)....do you consider playing in really good promotions to be AP? Not sure why you have so much distaste(?) towards APs......but the math stands behind the AP, both in theoretical numbers (expected value) as well as results (actual values). All I ever hear about DI/DC is people trying to prove/justify it could be possible and no math or results to back it up.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Do you think AP is made-up fiction, very difficult and few can do it....or something else?

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First I am a reporter. So, if you have the proof, show it to me that AP works and you make money at it.

Frankly, I've asked the same question before and the best profit report for an AP I've seen hasn't been more than what a job at In N Out would pay.

Be careful about this: I know of plenty of players who got lucky and hit big jackpots -- but that's not what I am talking about. What I want to see is the "advantage play" that pays more than a job at In N Out.

And about Dice Influencing: would you accept the possibility that a human might be able to do it, if a robot programmed to deliver two dice to the same spot on a table with force and angle, etc, set can do it? Or do you have a blanket belief that DI is not possible?

I believe it's possible (DI). But I don't think it's something anyone can actually do. Kind of like throwing a 200 mph fastball.

All AP is....is math. Here's a real example: I give up 3% of my action playing a machine and I get back 10% of my action in FP. Another, also real example: I give up 0.4% of my action (in house edge) and I get back 3.5% of my action in freeplay.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I believe it's possible (DI). But I don't think it's something anyone can actually do. Kind of like throwing a 200 mph fastball.

All AP is....is math. Here's a real example: I give up 3% of my action playing a machine and I get back 10% of my action in FP. Another, also real example: I give up 0.4% of my action (in house edge) and I get back 3.5% of my action in freeplay.

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That's total nonsense....again. If something is possible, that means someone can do it or has done it. No one can throw a 200mph fastball. "Thinking" and "believing" in events do not take the place of actual facts.

The action vs. free play theory.....free play has zero value unless and until it is turned into cash AND taken out of the casino.Most regular gamblers do not come close to doing that because they crave far more action than the free play provides.

Again, just the facts next time. And leave the theories in fantasyland.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

That's total nonsense....again. If something is possible, that means someone can do it or has done it. No one can throw a 200mph fastball. "Thinking" and "believing" in events do not take the place of actual facts.

The action vs. free play theory.....free play has zero value unless and until it is turned into cash AND taken out of the casino.Most regular gamblers do not come close to doing that because they crave far more action than the free play provides.

Again, just the facts next time. And leave the theories in fantasyland.

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Do you read your own posts?

Like Rob I have a problem treating free play as cash. I also question promotions such as 10% free play rebates because they are not consistent and are limited. Remember the In N Out job is 40 hours a week.

I'm afraid that some of the greatest fiction writers are APs.

Show me I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm afraid that some of the greatest fiction writers are APs.

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Hahaha ...hahaha ...hahaha.

Why would a real AP announce an easy big casino profit across the internet were it true. I would initiate all of my family, and keep everything about it a secret to grave. I wouldn't say, hey, look, everyone can do it this way and that, to the point of no more profit for anyone. Wouldn't even kid about it.

Yet AP's spend year after year on the internet with tens of thousands of posts between them on free gambling forums making a "cat & mouse game" of further information such as ANY real immediate proof.

Yeah, they rally behind all sorts of simplistic math to copy and paste, and people who call themselves MathExtremist, Zscore, Wizard, and so on. Gotta be "hotboxing" something. This is how scams take down the intelligent who are over-analytical and living alone. A lack of perspective. Would you want to meet someone called Zscore?

No advantage player should demonstrate how they win if they win. No winning race player will provide actual results as they could be data mined. No winning sports player has any interest in sharing who they took or why, as they will also be analyzed and data mined.

Why would anyone who actually wins tell anyone else that they do it, or how and why they do it?

So if you aren't willing to come up with proof, why even bother telling (posting) anything at all?

Like I said before -- the only "AP proof" I ever saw had a guy winning less per hour than what a regular job at In N Out pays. The "AP" was proud of what he accomplished. But it made me laugh.

Here's where I agree with Singer: why would the Wiz need to appeal for donations when he could have gone out and "won" the money?

Sorry for being harsh -- but during my news career I put people in prison for making claims about great returns on mortgage investments.

A lot keeps on being claimed about how "AP's" supposedly wish to stay under the radar. Then when you ask them why they always use a players card when claiming to be "stealth gamblers" you get a mumble and a stumble. Obviously, the casinos know exactly what their game is. People like Dancer even write and boast about it every week, and highly visible AP's like Wizard work both sides of the fence with him.

So let's hear one more time how AP's aren't going to be talking about their plays or their results on the internet--let alone offer up proof that they've been successful. In fact, the only AP's I've known to prove anything have been the ones who've proven they've lost! Wizard & his solicitation for cash; Dan Paymar and his move out of LV to the mountains outside of Santa Fe so he wouldn't be tempted to keep throwing his money into the FPDW poker machines on a daily basis; Skip Hughes, who went broke as a VP-AP after moving to LV and then after taking embarrassing donations from VPFree members he finally found a job in Carson City months before he died; "Stanford Wong" & Anthony Curtis" who both continually made false claims that they were so good at winning at card counting that they were banned at all casinos up & down the Strip (and subsequently had to open gaming businesses in order to survive)--a claim investigated by Gaming Today (me) and found to be totally false; Frank Kneeland who we discovered played a TON of VP but only with OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY before he disappeared for good; and of course the famous Yuri Sorkin aka math professor at UNLV who lost his wages and entire life savings playing as an AP in LV and is now lost somewhere in Siberia for good.

And now we see we have a new crop. Let their stories be told. They are such entertaining creatures.

When Jason and I took Frank out for lunch and he told us -- to our faces -- that he never played with his own money, I nearly fell off my chair.

That kind of discovery is exactly what I've been uncovering about the "famous names" and AP's for years, and it's what led to naming my first book The UNDENIABLE Truth About Video Poker.