Getting convinced that Bob Dancer doesn't know much about modern CET

Listened to Bob Dancer's podcast tonight, with guest Darryl McEwen of Seven Stars Insider: http://www.slot-machine-resource.com...sts/mcewen.mp3

Dancer made the following untrue/exaggerated statements about CET in 2015:

- Your host should be able to get you $10,000 to $20,000 worth of extra benefits over what you can normally get yourself. If he can't, you need a different host.

- If you want better comps from your host, make sure to approach him/her after you have a losing session. If you only approach your host when you lose, you will get great comps, and then you just don't bother to ask for anything when you win, yet your overall losses will be small (because of the winning sessions), and your comps will be great compared to your losses.

FALSE, on both counts.

That's not how modern CET works.

CET hosts are given discretion mostly based upon your AMT (average marketing theoretical), and NOT your actual losses. While a host has some additional leeway and may be slightly more generous after you've taken a bad loss, it won't be a significant difference.

Furthermore, you will NEVER get $10k-$20k worth of RFB and other benefits out of your host, unless your theoretical loss is several times that. And if your yearly theoretical loss is something like $100k..... well.... let's just say you need to reevaluate your gambling habit, unless you're super rich.

There's no way Dancer is getting $10k-$20k of benefits out of his CET host in 2015.

The only way he could be doing that is if he has found a machine that is generating a grossly incorrect theo -- such as one that is 99% return but generating a theo of 10% coin in loss. But I don't think any of those exist at CET right now, and haven't in awhile.

While I am not exactly a fan of Rob Singer, I think he's somewhat right about Bob Dancer. The guy loves to shoot off his mouth, but a lot of what he says simply isn't true, and a lot of the advice he gives is either antiquated or simply bad.

Bob is wrong about a lot of thugs and a total snitch- and ruined the revel promotion. He also is very creepy and somehow works a creepy sexual reference into almost every show - whether

I think when evaluating Dancer that it may be prudent to give him more intellectual firepower credit than Dan has here, and less, shall we say, intellectual honesty credit. In other words, Dancer is at that point where he may be benefiting more from his casino connections and income streams than he does from playing. It wouldn't surprise me if he purposefully misreports a lot of stuff because he's basically in the business's pocket. Misreporting the CET stuff serves the dual purpose of cranking up Dancer's "inside info" credibility with listeners while helping CET make money. Not a bad gig.

Rob's old publisher, Gaming Today, has always been in the same kind of position really, where they are trying to generate revenue for casinos while superficially posing as the players' friend.

I don't understand how Dancer's comment about hosts and big discretionary comps could help any casino. If anything it will cause trouble for every host in Vegas.

Context, Mr. Witteles. When Dancer mentions his go-to phrase "the care and feeding of a slot host", he is not referring to specifically CET hosts.

He as alluded in past podcast episodes to what a slot host can generate for him (listen to the episodes with guests Royal Cat, Jimmy Jazz). For example: getting an entry into a slot tournament he otherwise was not invited to, cashing expired slot play or cashback, redeeming gift cards in a giveaway and holding it for him.

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

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Originally Posted by nerakil

Context, Mr. Witteles. When Dancer mentions his go-to phrase "the care and feeding of a slot host", he is not referring to specifically CET hosts.

He as alluded in past podcast episodes to what a slot host can generate for him (listen to the episodes with guests Royal Cat, Jimmy Jazz). For example: getting an entry into a slot tournament he otherwise was not invited to, cashing expired slot play or cashback, redeeming gift cards in a giveaway and holding it for him.

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It was a little bit weird, because I thought I heard Dancer AND the other host say that CET hosts have very little power these days. When Dancer started singing the praises of using hosts, McEwen asked, "Didn't you say CET hosts have very little power?", and Dancer replied, "I said nothing of the sort". I thought the exact same as McEwen when I heard that, making me believe that we both heard correctly, and Dancer was just changing his story.

Dancer did very clearly state at that point that your CET host should be doing a lot for you. I would have given him more credit if he said, "This doesn't work at CET, but at other properties...", yet he didn't say that. In fact, he even advocated blowing your RCs so a host can start comping you (which is, of course, CET specific).

Blowing your RCs in order to get discretionary comps is only smart if:

1) You play regularly and have very few "no play" trips
-and-
2) You are not overcomped

The problem is that any good AP in the CET system should be overcomped (or close to it), unless he has found some exploitable machine which is returning way too high of a theo.

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Originally Posted by nerakil

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

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How is it costing you $4 in converted freeplay each time?

I am shocked that a 100%+ machine still exists at CET. Do they just not realize its return?

I think you're mostly doing this right. At 50c single line, you aren't going to generate massive coin-in no matter what, but the good thing is that you are never going to get crushed on it, even if variance doesn't go your way.

BTW I have noticed that most CET machines are over-theo'd, so the 4% you think you're getting isn't quite as good as you might think. That is factored into the equation when they compute your comps. I think they over-theo the machines in order to account for the fact that the average player doesn't play perfect strategy. But at the same time, they have gotten tighter with comps, so it's not like you are cleaning up with the comps at CET properties even with the over-theo.

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Originally Posted by nerakil

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

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Quit getting comped. Well it doesn't matter anymore. But I probably would'a played it to a much higher theo loss, and not get comped dinners all the time (they're a waste)....especially because the comps will come later.

Do they have a higher denom of is $0.50 the max?

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Originally Posted by RS__

Quit getting comped. Well it doesn't matter anymore. But I probably would'a played it to a much higher theo loss, and not get comped dinners all the time (they're a waste)....especially because the comps will come later.

Do they have a higher denom of is $0.50 the max?

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1) How is a comped dinner a "waste"?

2) What is he going to gain by playing it to a higher theo loss? He's not going to earn very much theo playing single-line 50c video poker, even if he sits there for 16 hours per session.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

How is it costing you $4 in converted freeplay each time?

I am shocked that a 100%+ machine still exists at CET. Do they just not realize its return?

I think you're mostly doing this right. At 50c single line, you aren't going to generate massive coin-in no matter what, but the good thing is that you are never going to get crushed on it, even if variance doesn't go your way.

BTW I have noticed that most CET machines are over-theo'd, so the 4% you think you're getting isn't quite as good as you might think. That is factored into the equation when they compute your comps. I think they over-theo the machines in order to account for the fact that the average player doesn't play perfect strategy. But at the same time, they have gotten tighter with comps, so it's not like you are cleaning up with the comps at CET properties even with the over-theo.

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I don't about other CET markets, but here at Bally's in AC, hosts can issue paper discretionary comps, if the amount you request exceeds your comp balance. So I ask for $75.00 for a restaurant (example: Guy Fieri's Chophouse), they lookup your play to see if they can cover the additional $70.00. Once approved, they zero out your RCs first (I just played 500 TCs, so they take 500 RCs, which could've been converted to slot play at 1.25:1 later), and add on the additional $70.00. Everything must be spent in one shot, within 48 hours.

Actually, here's a guaranteed Druff-approved play: the best result is to play 499 RCs. Since they can only zero out whole dollar amounts, you only get $4 in comps deducted and keep 99 RCs in your account.

Wouldn't the bigger Druff-approved play be strolling into the gift shop and buying something for $5 to zero out your RCs?

The hosts sometimes don't like it when the first line on the computer says "10:55AM RC Redemption-Kiosk 17". But yes, that would be the best play. You have to have a minimum balance of $1 to be issued a paper discretionary comp, so you could spend 400 RCs at the gift shop and then go see the host.

RS__: There is only one denomination: 50c single line. However, your suggestion of playing longer is good because they sell in the gift shop an (overpriced) iPad Air 2 for $600 in RCs. Yes, hosts can issue discretionary comps to the gift shop as well. So, I could generate maybe a $2K theo over a "trip" of several days, and redeem for that.

Well, when I get tired of Ruth's Chris or McCormick and Schmick's, I'll go for the electronics.

I love it when folks get the better of The Borg. Eat that steak to your heart's content!! Kill 'em, baby.

And sometime in late December, ask if you can swing a comped ticket to see Ariana. I have a suspicion that concert may not be as sold out as in the past.

I think Caesars will have no problem fill the Ariana concert. People will be at Caesars for NYE regardless of the entertainment.

I love it. "Only hit your host up for comps when you lose". What a moron. First off, as soon as you talk to a host your comps go DOWN, not up. If you want eyes on you every time you play, contact a host. And guess what happens when you get watched. Yup, if you do well, you'll start wondering where all the good offers went. So many times I've said this, only people seem to love the superficiality of having a relationship with a host: YOU WILL ALWAYS GET MORE LUCRATIVE OFFERS FROM MARKETING-GENERATED MAILINGS THAN YOU EVER WILL FROM SPEAKING TO ANY HOST. And as soon as you get that oh-so-special "extra" from your wonderful, feel-good talk with your smiling host, your overall offers will go down, and you will have confusing conversations with those within the system as you try to get what you thought you were entitled to.

Dancer shoots himself in the foot with these type of statements. He gives the perception of being a big winner, yet he's always doing things that losers do. He might even be better sticking with his creepy sexual innuendos that only a fat old man could love.

If I remember correctly Dancer said that you could get an extra $10k-$20k in VALUE from a host relationship. I had interpreted this to mean that they could provide, among other things, very valuable information that could help you make more profitable gambling decisions. Maybe they could tell you how many tickets are in the drawing, so you can determine the value. Or maybe they can tell you the average value of a "random reward of freeplay for every 1000 points earned" type of promotion. These can be difficult to evaluate unless you have the information to determine some key variables. I did not think he was saying that having a good host allows him to eat an extra $10,000 in steaks and lobster tails.

Bigfoot over the years my hosts had very little knowledge of how to play any game. And you think they'd know the odds of drawings?

Years ago I had a host at Caesars who asked me to meet him at a locals' casino to show him how to play craps.

Hosts are either salespeople or order takers. I doubt they have any inside info to help a gambler.

Yes Alan, Dancer simply meant that he thinks he's somehow cajoled unsuspecting hosts into handing over the goods to him year after year. These same people were probably laughing at him behind his back every time. People who try to give the impression that most hosts and casino managers are clueless only do so because they have a serious, hidden deficiency in strength of conviction. The same can be said about his propensity to write about sexual situations so often. Just remember to bring along the anti-bacterial wipes the next time you think you'll be playing one of the machines he's pushed the buttons on.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Bigfoot over the years my hosts had very little knowledge of how to play any game. And you think they'd know the odds of drawings?

Years ago I had a host at Caesars who asked me to meet him at a locals' casino to show him how to play craps.

Hosts are either salespeople or order takers. I doubt they have any inside info to help a gambler.

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They probably don't know every piece of the puzzle, but I think they have access to a lot of information that could be useful. For example:

1) This Baccarat Tournament has a prize pool of $500,000, and we expect 100 people to qualify for entry. If you earn 10,000 points I can get you an invitation.

2) The new boss is easier on giving airfare reimbursement, so the published rules say you need 8,000 points to earn airfare but I can give it to you as long as you earn 6,000 points.

3) We are running a great promotion next month that we haven't announced yet, If you move your trip back a week I can give you an extra $500 in freeplay.

4) I was able to give you a lot more last time because you were playing machine #1854 which generates theo a lot faster than #1856 which you played this time.

I am not a hosted player so I may be completely wrong, or (more likely) I have the right idea but these are poor examples. But it seems obvious to me that the host has access to a lot of casino information that is not publicly available. Some of this information could probably help you make more profitable gambling decisions. If your host likes you and is willing to bend the rules a bit, he might give you more information than he is supposed to.

Heck, I had a front desk clerk tell me my ADT the last time I was at a CET property because I tipped her a couple of dollars. I am speculating but it does seem like a very plausible scenario.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

...Just remember to bring along the anti-bacterial wipes the next time you think you'll be playing one of the machines he's pushed the buttons on.

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Better yet, just wear surgical gloves.

Bigfoot is right......but it doesn't matter, the Singers and Alans will come back and dispel anything that has truth to it.

Rob, you must have gotten shafted by the casinos/hosts if you don't know what they do or can do for you.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

They probably don't know every piece of the puzzle, but I think they have access to a lot of information that could be useful. For example:

1) This Baccarat Tournament has a prize pool of $500,000, and we expect 100 people to qualify for entry. If you earn 10,000 points I can get you an invitation.

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If the host can get you an invitation for 10,000 it's not a gift. It's because that's the threshold for an entry.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

2) The new boss is easier on giving airfare reimbursement, so the published rules say you need 8,000 points to earn airfare but I can give it to you as long as you earn 6,000 points.

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Maybe in the good old days, but not with CET today.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

3) We are running a great promotion next month that we haven't announced yet, If you move your trip back a week I can give you an extra $500 in freeplay.

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Yes, we are tipped off to promotions before they are announced. I was told about JLo at New Year's last year before it was announced and I was told about Ariana this year before it was announced. But to think that a host would discourage a trip? That will never happen.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

4) I was able to give you a lot more last time because you were playing machine #1854 which generates theo a lot faster than #1856 which you played this time.

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This is absolute fiction. Hosts don't know about machines which generate theo. They will be able to see if you're a $5 video poker player or a $25 video poker player, but when it comes to telling you about specific machines that's fiction.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

I am not a hosted player so I may be completely wrong, or (more likely) I have the right idea but these are poor examples. But it seems obvious to me that the host has access to a lot of casino information that is not publicly available. Some of this information could probably help you make more profitable gambling decisions. If your host likes you and is willing to bend the rules a bit, he might give you more information than he is supposed to.

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Since you're not a hosted player you are going by hearsay. There are a limited number of strings that a host can pull for you. They can't help you make profitable gambling decisions because they just don't have the info, unless you consider tipping you off that a drawing or a tournament is coming up? And I consider that type of gambling info near worthless. Maybe the "AP community" considers that info valuable -- I certainly don't.

Where a host really becomes valuable is when you need an extra room, or two, or you need adjoining rooms -- or separated rooms when you book many. The best trick a host ever pulled for me at Caesars was about 10 years ago when I had six rooms -- all comped -- so I could fly in my brother and sister and their wives and kids and we could all have Thanksgiving dinner together at the old Nero's. And my host joined us for dinner too, since he was going through a divorce. And the entire thing was comped including the wine he ordered. But he wouldnt have done it for me if I hadn't had the play to justify it.

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Originally Posted by bigfoot66

Heck, I had a front desk clerk tell me my ADT the last time I was at a CET property because I tipped her a couple of dollars. I am speculating but it does seem like a very plausible scenario.

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I doubt front desk clerks have access to that info at a CET property, but if you say you did I won't argue.

She made it clear that most desk clerks can't access the info but since she worked the vip checking she had more access. I could see the screen, there was a number for just that property and then another number that was my general adt.

YOU WILL ALWAYS GET MORE LUCRATIVE OFFERS FROM MARKETING-GENERATED MAILINGS THAN YOU EVER WILL FROM SPEAKING TO ANY HOST.


This is not my experience at all. I am going to Vegas for my 35th in 8 days and my mailers are $75 freeplay. my host is giving me $500 free play and $300 f&b.. so I must be the exception here then?

And I also agree with everyone here about Dancer, I can't stand the man.

Btw you say that my host comments are hearsay...it's worse than that, it's pure speculation. I'm usually wrong and may well be wrong here too.

Seems like a lot of people who can't stand dancer religiously devour his publications.

I've played at Bellagio a couple times now. Every offer came thru a host. I haven't received my first email or mailer yet.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I've played at Bellagio a couple times now. Every offer came thru a host. I haven't received my first email or mailer yet.

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MGM properties offers are based on play from a few months back. It'll probably take a couple more before you start seeing any.

I'm shaking my head. Room upgrades, extra rooms etc. can be very easily obtained from the VIP check-in areas, either on the phone or in person. Sometimes they will talk to a host about the request themself, and sometimes they don't have to. The point is to stay away from any direct contact with a host. They'll make you believe you're their best friends at your "home away from home" yet the more they cheerfully give you, the more bleak your computer future will look. Note: all the massive amounts of griping from the 7-Stars comp hounds on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I'm shaking my head. Room upgrades, extra rooms etc. can be very easily obtained from the VIP check-in areas, either on the phone or in person.

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Let's talk about my big Thanksgiving weekend from years ago at Caesars.

I had a room for me and my wife.
I had a second room for my two kids.
I had a third room for my sister and her husband from New Jersey.
I had a fourth room for their two kids.
I had a fifth room for my brother and his wife from New Jersey.
I had a sixth room for their two kids.

We all had dinner at Nero's -- all 13 of us (my host joined us, it was his day off) at one specially arranged table. And everything was totally comped.

Now, Mr Singer, do you expect that the extra free rooms could "be very easily obtained" at the VIP check-in area when my relatives flew in? By the way, they arrived in Vegas before I did. Do you think the comps would have been easily obtained either when everyone arrived or departed without a host?

What kind of a dream world do you live in?

I'm shaking my head.

Alan is mostly right about hosts, especially with CET.

They are very good when it comes to getting you extra rooms or upgrading your existing room. I mean, this doesn't work much for me, as I am overcomped, but for most others that's what hosts are good for.

Regarding hosts giving you offers, you're not going to get many (or any) from a host which exceed what the marketing computer would offer you. Perhaps you will at the beginning, when the marketing computer hasn't yet generated offers for you yet. However, at CET, for the most part hosts will not be able to give you offers exceeding what the computer gave you, aside from play-dependent RFB.

In some cases, hosts will give you LESS than you can get through the general booking number. For example, I am entitled to 5 nights comped at CET properties through my Seven Stars benefit, if I book with the CCS (800 number). If I attempt to book through a host, I will only get 4. I've discussed this before out here. One host even explained this to me, in that the CCS has a different block of rooms to give away, and operate under different rules than they do.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Alan is mostly right about hosts, especially with CET.

They are very good when it comes to getting you extra rooms or upgrading your existing room. I mean, this doesn't work much for me, as I am overcomped,

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For at least a year now (or is it two, or three years?) you've been telling us you are "overcomped." When will you be "undercomped" because you are not getting offers, and hosts won't touch you?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

For at least a year now (or is it two, or three years?) you've been telling us you are "overcomped." When will you be "undercomped" because you are not getting offers, and hosts won't touch you?

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Never.

As soon as I am getting less value from being a Seven Stars than I am spending to get there, I will quit playing.

The money I would have to spend to "get offers" at this point would not come close to being worth it.

BTW, I believe I am getting better offers than you were getting recently for Rincon (prior to being no-offered)! I am getting $120 freeplay per period (like twice a week), but I haven't bothered to take advantage of it.

This is because I played at Rincon a lot this year, so I am not overcomped at the particular property.

When Rincon cut me off I was getting $80 per week plus something on Fridays -- ranging from $60 up to, if I recall, $300. In reality, I was getting the minimal amount on Fridays.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Let's talk about my big Thanksgiving weekend from years ago at Caesars.

I had a room for me and my wife.
I had a second room for my two kids.
I had a third room for my sister and her husband from New Jersey.
I had a fourth room for their two kids.
I had a fifth room for my brother and his wife from New Jersey.
I had a sixth room for their two kids.

We all had dinner at Nero's -- all 13 of us (my host joined us, it was his day off) at one specially arranged table. And everything was totally comped.

Now, Mr Singer, do you expect that the extra free rooms could "be very easily obtained" at the VIP check-in area when my relatives flew in? By the way, they arrived in Vegas before I did. Do you think the comps would have been easily obtained either when everyone arrived or departed without a host?

What kind of a dream world do you live in?

I'm shaking my head.

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You're shaking your head because you choose to be blind to what's really going on with your relationship with Caesar's.

First, what you just told me about all those rooms is you have to be a huge loser at CET. Anyone could get what you have who has those kind of numbers attached to his/her name. And you don't know how much you could have received from the VIP check-in because you're so fascinated with "that oh-so-special feeling" of having a host....your caring friend from your wonderful "home away from home".

Bringing a host to your family dinner is sappy and non-sensible. All they care about is that you keep losing.

That's right Rob, I lost that year. My host also offered me his kidney when I needed a transplant. Fuck off.

If all these misled 7-Stars All-Stars here were concerned about how to win MONEY from the casinos instead of worrying to death about why they're not getting this tidbit or that bunch of craps "for free", then I'd say you're doing your job. Instead, we constantly get treated to a crew of comp worry-warts and an "overcomped" obfuscator who generally have poor judgement and a bad disposition when it comes to casinos. Why people continue to joust with a bankrupt corporation is a mystery.

You folks are the cure to what ails Caesar's.

Rob's trying to provide the voice of conscience on Alan's shoulder.

I've never had the tendency break my usual patterns whether winning or losing, so the implication that people go out of control is alien to me, but I appreciate Rob's advice in a general sense. I don't think it's necessary to micro-manage other people's gambling, however. If Alan more or less adheres to his usual stakes and usual routines, win or lose, you can't criticize him for gambling. If he goes whack job nuts and puts 10K on the Texans to win their division (inside joke for regnis), well then, maybe some calm advice is in order.

I have no idea how much Alan wagers per trip and all that, and I really do not want to know. I have no interest. My sense is that blowing 90K before the end of the year would be way out of normalcy. We should all have confidence that Alan is not a whack job and let it go at that.

If anyone cares more than half of that $90k was spent on non gambling including taxes to the IRS and the California FTB and to clear up the bills for my divorce.

I also prepaid my health insurance for 2016.

I used the money just as a windfall should be used.

I don't need any Rob Singer Strategy to do it either.

One point here is that I DO care, and no one else does. Thus, the input, harsh and bold as it may seem.

My opinion on you not playing any more this year is based on your propensity to look at what you just won, then chop it down as far as possible so that you can do two things: play more, then lose up to the point that you can still claim some kind of profit--and success--off of a big win. I don't like it at all so I say it.

When I win big it all goes home with me. Every time. And it is EXACTLY what the casinos don't want or expect me to do. Just like the very misguided policies of players seeing any kind of positives out of using huge casino tools like using hosts, casino lines of credit, or casino ATM's. The only way any player can experience any type of consistent, year-to-year success against the casinos is by adopting a strict policy of doing exactly the opposite of what you know they want and expect you to do. There is no wiggle room or room for excuses on this. You either control what you're doing in the casinos or they will seriously control you. Think about this after that next big hit if you just arrived on scene. Can you just get up, pack your things and leave? Should you....or should you listen to the addictive pull of the casino and just stay on, risking some or all of the win? Think about it.

Rob, aside from your needless needling of Alan, I agree with most of what you have to say in this thread. When you hit a big jackpot, it is your money. At that point, anything you lose back is the same as losing money before hitting the jackpot, even if it doesn't feel that way.

$10k lost before winning $100k is the same as $10k lost after winning $100k, unless you couldn't afford to lose $10k in the first place (which isn't the case for Alan).

However, I am still questioning why you always put down APs and Seven Stars bonus whores.

This is what you just wrote:

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The only way any player can experience any type of consistent, year-to-year success against the casinos is by adopting a strict policy of doing exactly the opposite of what you know they want and expect you to do. There is no wiggle room or room for excuses on this. You either control what you're doing in the casinos or they will seriously control you.

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I AGREE!!!

And that's what APs do. They do exactly what the casinos DON'T want them to do, in order to consistently extract value out of the casino.

Now, I admit there are pseudo-APs who make all kinds of excuses for their losses ("variance", "I made it back in comps", "it was still positive expectation") to cover for the fact that they really don't know what they're doing.

But legitimate APs are the bane of the casino industry's existence, and casinos have been fighting to thwart them for decades.

You should praise legit APs, not deride them.

Rob, please do not care about me so much.

The first thing I did after getting my check and paying off my marker was call my son to come join me in Vegas with the promise that I would give him money to play with. How much is that worth? Certainly more than the $3,000 he got and it was even worth more than the $26,000 he won when he hit a royal that same night.

Some of us actually like to take our winnings to play more. Sometimes we win more and sometimes we lose. But we do something you can't do: we enjoy ourselves. You are a miserable SOB who still can't forget that being an AP drove you into bankruptcy. I wonder if you had been a recreational player instead of trying to beat the casinos you would have enjoyed life more?

And leave Chimp alone. She's a darling lady and you would thank your lucky stars if she ever gave you the time of day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Rob, aside from your needless needling of Alan, I agree with most of what you have to say in this thread. When you hit a big jackpot, it is your money. At that point, anything you lose back is the same as losing money before hitting the jackpot, even if it doesn't feel that way.

$10k lost before winning $100k is the same as $10k lost after winning $100k, unless you couldn't afford to lose $10k in the first place (which isn't the case for Alan).

However, I am still questioning why you always put down APs and Seven Stars bonus whores.

This is what you just wrote:



I AGREE!!!

And that's what APs do. They do exactly what the casinos DON'T want them to do, in order to consistently extract value out of the casino.

Now, I admit there are pseudo-APs who make all kinds of excuses for their losses ("variance", "I made it back in comps", "it was still positive expectation") to cover for the fact that they really don't know what they're doing.

But legitimate APs are the bane of the casino industry's existence, and casinos have been fighting to thwart them for decades.

You should praise legit APs, not deride them.

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The one point you missed is, based solely on his own postings, Alan will not lose more than his regular $2500 draw on any one trip. I know he recently posted it was $5000 which I asked for clarification on 3 times, so whether the $2500 or even the $5k is believable we will never know unless he chooses to explain that. So if you take either figure, then no, Alan really cannot stomach a $10k loss without a big hit first. And that's when his justification system fires up.

The issue I have with AP play is they almost always play right thru any big winners, because they have no goals, rhyme or reason other than to chase a mythical theoretical end-of-lifetime edge of some sort. That's of course a very foolish approach compared to what I very successfully have done the past 15 years. But if they enjoy it, what I opine based on my experience as an AP shouldn't matter. But the wise will indeed listen.

Alan's not being needled by me. I simply respond to what he feels he needs to say here. He'll always tell you that I never discuss anything we communicate elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob, please do not care about me so much.

The first thing I did after getting my check and paying off my marker was call my son to come join me in Vegas with the promise that I would give him money to play with. How much is that worth? Certainly more than the $3,000 he got and it was even worth more than the $26,000 he won when he hit a royal that same night.

Some of us actually like to take our winnings to play more. Sometimes we win more and sometimes we lose. But we do something you can't do: we enjoy ourselves. You are a miserable SOB who still can't forget that being an AP drove you into bankruptcy. I wonder if you had been a recreational player instead of trying to beat the casinos you would have enjoyed life more?

And leave Chimp alone. She's a darling lady and you would thank your lucky stars if she ever gave you the time of day.

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Something you will forever remain blind to: a lengthy marriage doesn't certify anything, but if I were generally angry, mean, or whatever you claim might be "wrong" with me, does it make sense that a strong woman who worked as a professional engineer for 33 years at the same company would stay with such a being? (Or...and excuse me for smirking while typing this....would that more likely be the case with a 3-time loser :)?)

You see why I'm having fun here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

The one point you missed is, based solely on his own postings, Alan will not lose more than his regular $2500 draw on any one trip. I know he recently posted it was $5000 which I asked for clarification on 3 times, so whether the $2500 or even the $5k is believable we will never know unless he chooses to explain that. So if you take either figure, then no, Alan really cannot stomach a $10k loss without a big hit first. And that's when his justification system fires up.

The issue I have with AP play is they almost always play right thru any big winners, because they have no goals, rhyme or reason other than to chase a mythical theoretical end-of-lifetime edge of some sort. That's of course a very foolish approach compared to what I very successfully have done the past 15 years. But if they enjoy it, what I opine based on my experience as an AP shouldn't matter. But the wise will indeed listen.

Alan's not being needled by me. I simply respond to what he feels he needs to say here. He'll always tell you that I never discuss anything we communicate elsewhere.

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Rob, that $2500 was a daily draw for trips to Vegas. For daily trips to Rincon, when I used to make them, the daily limit was $1500.

Rob does it really bother you this much that I hit a $100K royal with only $1,000 in the machine, then came home with a check for $90,000 of which more than half was spent on non-gaming and I still have a lot of money sitting in my checking account? Gee whiz. Give it a rest. Deal with the fact that someone besides the great Rob Singer got lucky -- and I didn't have to break up three queens to score my royal... I only had to draw one card which was a no brainer hold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

You see why I'm having fun here?

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You're not having fun here. You are growing a new crop of enemies.

I've said it a million times....Rob does nothing good for your forum, Alan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob, that $2500 was a daily draw for trips to Vegas. For daily trips to Rincon, when I used to make them, the daily limit was $1500.

Rob does it really bother you this much that I hit a $100K royal with only $1,000 in the machine, then came home with a check for $90,000 of which more than half was spent on non-gaming and I still have a lot of money sitting in my checking account? Gee whiz. Give it a rest. Deal with the fact that someone besides the great Rob Singer got lucky -- and I didn't have to break up three queens to score my royal... I only had to draw one card which was a no brainer hold.



You're not having fun here. You are growing a new crop of enemies.

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$2500 DAILY. New info every day! So if I understand this right, as soon as you lose $2500 the 1st day of a LV trip, you call it a night, leaving all that juicy draw money in the cashier's register. No problem whatsoever waiting another 12 hours for some fresh cash to put into action. Got it!

That royal was the result of LUCK? What? You held four royal cards, correct? Then hitting the royal was the result of SKILL! Ask the AP's--they'll help you see this. And it was, per your own words, only a flush you were going for because you did not read the values of the 4 cards you held--only the SUIT. No problem there either. Going for the simple flush was also the optimal play. Skill any way you look at it. So all that wishy washy stuff about the great Rob Singer and this and that is irrelevant, esp. when you have such control over what you do. And I actually hope you do it again, because it is inconceivable that you will stay away from the $25 or maybe even the $100 poker machines between now and year's end. I'm rooting for you since you can't stay away.

I'll be sure to discuss how a new crop of anonymous people on the Internet might be new enemies of mine because I opine boldly, with my wife. Hey, I may even talk it over with my doggie!:)

Eh, no more lucky than drawing any of the other 46 remaining cards. But skill, no.

Then we've been misled by every AP gaming expert/writer who's ever come down the pike. 95% skill/5% luck. And most say there is no such thing as luck. One hand is no different than 4,500,000 hands. Either you play the grind-it-out game optimally with skill or you don't.

In my case of being dealt four to the royal, how much skill was needed? I didn't even have a high pair to break up. There were four hearts and if I recall the card I dropped was either a 2 or 3 of clubs. Skill needed to make the draw was slightly higher than playing Go-Fish in kindergarten. I would say hitting my royal was all luck.

Skill is holding KK55 in DDB while the unskilled hold KK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

$2500 DAILY. New info every day! So if I understand this right, as soon as you lose $2500 the 1st day of a LV trip, you call it a night, leaving all that juicy draw money in the cashier's register. No problem whatsoever waiting another 12 hours for some fresh cash to put into action. Got it!

That royal was the result of LUCK? What? You held four royal cards, correct? Then hitting the royal was the result of SKILL! Ask the AP's--they'll help you see this. And it was, per your own words, only a flush you were going for because you did not read the values of the 4 cards you held--only the SUIT. No problem there either. Going for the simple flush was also the optimal play. Skill any way you look at it. So all that wishy washy stuff about the great Rob Singer and this and that is irrelevant, esp. when you have such control over what you do. And I actually hope you do it again, because it is inconceivable that you will stay away from the $25 or maybe even the $100 poker machines between now and year's end. I'm rooting for you since you can't stay away.

I'll be sure to discuss how a new crop of anonymous people on the Internet might be new enemies of mine because I opine boldly, with my wife. Hey, I may even talk it over with my doggie!:)

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My little one wagged his tail and said you were too ruff on folks!��

Singer continues to prove above all else that he is mathematically illiterate. Pretty much says it all. You might as well base your playing on Tarot cards as listen to his nonsensical advice. There's a reason he's a laughing stock among those who actually understand math.

And I also understand life arci. How'd yours turn out? Relegated to loneliness and now nearly living at a Mn. Indian casino in a poker machine rut? I wonder what formula was used to determine that one....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Skill is holding KK55 in DDB while the unskilled hold KK.

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Ouch! Should I give back my 4 K's? I didn't realize......:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slingshot

Ouch! Should I give back my 4 K's? I didn't realize......:confused:

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And that's why you NEED a day job...

The only games worth holding KK55 aside from JoB and BP is 10/7DB & 10/6DDBP (and in some SDBP circumstances). If you look at TODAY'S play as some sort of lifelong theoretical obfuscation, then holding that hand when the FH pays 9 or less would make twisted sense. But if you play for a win goal and have the very unusual ability to just get up and leave after hitting or surpassing it, then holding just the K's is the far superior play--and something only a strong vp player would do.

This is yet another fine example of doing exactly what the casinos want and expect players to do. They know players who think they're smarter than the casinos will make the higher EV two pr. hold every time. But the casino is not purposely blind to the fact that the math us on their side 24 hours a day. So they not only beckon these so-called "AP's" to play along with all their lucrative and well-advertised promotions--they ENCOURAGE them to bring as much cash as possible every single time.

Advantage casinos. Throughout time.

But they don't encourage the APs to come, Rob.

Offers for APs are very low nowadays (or often nonexistent), unless there is some mistake and the AP's theoretical is being grossly overrated.

The truth is that APs are not worth the resources expended upon them, even if the casino has a 0.46% mathematical edge on them, or whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

But the casino is not purposely blind to the fact that the math us on their side 24 hours a day. So they not only beckon these so-called "AP's" to play along with all their lucrative and well-advertised promotions--they ENCOURAGE them to bring as much cash as possible every single time.

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Why do teams/APs get kicked out of casinos, then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RS__

Why do teams/APs get kicked out of casinos, then?

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And guys like Singer are always welcome.

Answer: because we win and they're scared of us and he's a compulsive loser.