Tipping discussion MOVED HERE

Think about it (esp. Chimp): When people read something that gets to them because it's the truth or at least close to it, they respond with denial, deflection, and/or anger that just can't be hidden.

Just like all of you who oddly feel you HAVE to tip on handpays in order to tone down the tension when you never asked for that service in the first place (which, btw, is similar to what your electric meter reader is required to do if you want that electricity....) no one can hide from what's really goin on. All you 7-Stars very special players explain that very well. Even when you don't say it, you do.

Need any more insight?

Speaking of handpays, I tipped $500 on the $100,000 royal. I figured if Jean Scott says $100 is appropriate for a $20,000 royal, then five times that must be okay for a $100,000 royal.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Think about it (esp. Chimp): When people read something that gets to them because it's the truth or at least close to it, they respond with denial, deflection, and/or anger that just can't be hidden.

Just like all of you who oddly feel you HAVE to tip on handpays in order to tone down the tension when you never asked for that service in the first place (which, btw, is similar to what your electric meter reader is required to do if you want that electricity....) no one can hide from what's really goin on. All you 7-Stars very special players explain that very well. Even when you don't say it, you do.

Need any more insight?

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Of course. Assholes don't tip. Decent people, even Alan, tip.

The concept of tipping $500 made my skin crawl. Yuckarama. I need to come up with some rationale to be able to sleep tonight. Knowing somebody tipped $500 for a video poker jackpot makes my bones hurt.

I have it. Alan is currently single, and the person delivering the check to Alan was a really, really hot babe. Yeah, that's the ticket. Now I can just keep repeating that and I'll be able to sleep.

See, Rob? It doesn't have to cause us any lost sleep. Just come up with a storyline with which we can live.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Speaking of handpays, I tipped $500 on the $100,000 royal. I figured if Jean Scott says $100 is appropriate for a $20,000 royal, then five times that must be okay for a $100,000 royal.

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Jean also fills her purse with apples and rolls from buffets. How have you topped that?

So you threw away $500 of the royal on what exactly? Did you request the handpay service? Did you request the W2G? Or were those services required by the business and the Gov't? You know, just like your gov't. meter reader is required to record your water or electric usage in order that you get what you need. Tell me, just how much do you tip for THESE services that you never ask for but are nonetheless required?

See how dumb tipping casino workers is? The come at you in your moment of euphoria with congratulations and smiles and as if they're your best friends. Intimidation at its finest, with weak people at their absolute weakest point. But what's this?--refuse to tip and worry how they'll feel about you? Horror of horrors!!

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Originally Posted by redietz

The concept of tipping $500 made my skin crawl. Yuckarama. I need to come up with some rationale to be able to sleep tonight. Knowing somebody tipped $500 for a video poker jackpot makes my bones hurt.

I have it. Alan is currently single, and the person delivering the check to Alan was a really, really hot babe. Yeah, that's the ticket. Now I can just keep repeating that and I'll be able to sleep.

See, Rob? It doesn't have to cause us any lost sleep. Just come up with a storyline with which we can live.

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I've never been one to believe I have the right to tell others how to spend their money, and I'm not going to start now.

But I agree with you, that $500 tip hurt me to read, as well.

I totally understand why Alan invited his son to join him after that big hit, and promised to bankroll his play. It's his own son, and he wanted to share the joy of the weekend with him. I totally get that.

I even understand why Alan shot off $10k back, in an attempt to turn a great trip into an even greater one. I wouldn't have personally done that, but I can totally see how he felt caught up in the moment and let the excitement take hold.

But I don't get the $500 tip. That is just insane. If I hit that $100k jackpot, I would tip $20, and if I got a nasty face or any other indication that they were unhappy, I would have tipped $0 the next handpay.

They didn't do much more work than when you hit a $2000 jackpot, so why tip $500 here?

You guys are right. I probably should have tipped only $300.

Whew--for a while you had me thinking I was a cheap SOB. I am from more of the Rob Singer camp on tips for hand pays, but like Dan, $20 or maybe $50. Not $500.

But others would probably come down on me for over-tipping in restaurants. So actually--who cares how much Alan gave her. It's his $$$.

Yikes. I guess I way over-tipped on my $50K hit. I was actually pretty pissed about finding out, afterwards, that a particular attendant was purposely sent to give me my check because we chatted a lot and the thought was that I would therefore give a bigger tip than if someone else gave it to me. The ironic thing is that this attendant bugged the crap out of me with over-talking. I was just being polite but actually couldn't stand it when she would see me and come over to talk.
Although I think I over-tipped, I did not raise the amount because of the attendant. And I have successfully ended the "chatting" relationship with the attendant.

You should be ending the TIPPING relationship with that attendant and every casino. Chatting costs nothing. BTW thank you for proving how manipulative and intimidating the floor people can be when someone hits it big. And Alan, $300 is just as stupid--your money or not. No wonder these people feel as if they are entitled to a cut of OUR money after WE hit jackpots. And if you're gonna cave into the pressure and tip, Dan's twenty bucks is more than enough for these slugs. Who cares if they pay you $2000 or $200,000. It's all one in the same.

Speaking of Alan calling in Jason from LA after the big royal----first, notwithstanding he should have gone straight home rather than stick around and call someone else into the gambling pit, I didn't get the point of doing that. Jason from what we read goes often enough, and the machines would still be there whenever he chose to go. Are you saying that the Mendelsons were too broke overall for Jason to take the trip with you? That certainly doesn't make much sense. I know....he was busy, then he wasn't! Good for him that he hit a royal too. Anything to mug the casinos.

Jason said I should not respond to Rob.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Speaking of Alan calling in Jason from LA after the big royal----first, notwithstanding he should have gone straight home rather than stick around and call someone else into the gambling pit, I didn't get the point of doing that. Jason from what we read goes often enough, and the machines would still be there whenever he chose to go. Are you saying that the Mendelsons were too broke overall for Jason to take the trip with you? That certainly doesn't make much sense. I know....he was busy, then he wasn't! Good for him that he hit a royal too. Anything to mug the casinos.

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I look forward to the day you post a "win" so we can do everything we can to post negative things about it.

On second thought... I'd rather you just not win.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

You should be ending the TIPPING relationship with that attendant and every casino. Chatting costs nothing. BTW thank you for proving how manipulative and intimidating the floor people can be when someone hits it big. And Alan, $300 is just as stupid--your money or not. No wonder these people feel as if they are entitled to a cut of OUR money after WE hit jackpots. And if you're gonna cave into the pressure and tip, Dan's twenty bucks is more than enough for these slugs. Who cares if they pay you $2000 or $200,000. It's all one in the same.

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Rob, I don't like tipping the attendants. Not one bit. Even the ones I genuinely like. But yes, the pressure not to be called a cheap a-hole is strong.
Don't take that the wrong way. I'm not calling you that. I'm just saying that I don't want to be called one.

I don't know what is said behind my back, but never at any casino has a slot person lingered around after a hand pay looking for a tip. On my last trip to Bellagio I had floor people who gave me the handpay and then ran off even before I started to reach for my wallet to give them a tip.

Only once in all my years playing craps did a dealer "suggest" a tip. But it was a monster roll and the dealer said "how about a hard 8 for us?" That was once in more than 20 years of playing craps.

Same experience here, Alan. They almost always run off quickly...as if they're told not to stick around.

You're kidding. I've had some who have blatantly lingered.

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Originally Posted by Chimp

You're kidding. I've had some who have blatantly lingered.

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Remember also that I've told floor people, hosts and managers that I don't want to be bothered with small talk when I am playing. And that's at Rincon and Caesars. No one knows me well enough at Bellagio yet to bother me.

Chimp you're a good looking lady. Of course the guys are going to hang around you!

I've actually had to say to floor people "hold on a minute" to get my tip money together, so they won't run off.

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Originally Posted by Chimp

Rob, I don't like tipping the attendants. Not one bit. Even the ones I genuinely like. But yes, the pressure not to be called a cheap a-hole is strong.
Don't take that the wrong way. I'm not calling you that. I'm just saying that I don't want to be called one.

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Originally Posted by Chimp

You're kidding. I've had some who have blatantly lingered.

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I fully agree on both counts.

I've also had some who linger.

I've also never had a huge jackpot, and have faced some ungrateful, unhappy attendants who weren't happy with my $5 tip on a 4-figure payout.

That's actually what pisses me off. Some of them have gotten so used to huge tips on jackpots that you actually get a negative reaction from some of them when you don't tip what they have been "accustomed" to from over-generous tippers. And that's outrageous. I will leave zero next time to anyone who does that to me.

A waitress at Rampart lingered for a friend and I over two tiny cokes.

I get annoyed when the last $100 of a jackpot is "conveniently" paid out in $20s without me asking. This has happened in a couple of casinos I have won at that are day trips from my home.

At Rincon I only play 25 cent VP,
99 % of my royals are $1000 hand pays. They always give me ten $100 dollar bills. Why do they do that? I'm darn sure not giving them one as a tip.

spojoey, the floor people at Rincon don't expect tips on $1,000 pays and they are slowly removing those $1,000 handpay machines. I've hit AAAA on their Royal Aces Bonus 25-cent machine several times this year and one of the two machines has a hand pay. Always I was given $100 bills and no one stands around for a handpay. I think the floor people are bothered by the $1,000 handpays as much as the players are.

Some linger and some don't. What most of you folks are missing in all this is there is no viable reason or even one with precedence inside or outside of casinos, why anyone should or would tip a casino slot attendant. It is a slimy casino practice perpetuated by a sudden appearance of a wad of cash that preys on the momentary euphoric feelings of its customers. And AP's who tip are simply contradicting what their casino existence is all about. They're always boasting about this % advantage and that % edge. Yet when the required jackpot hits come they give away part of their boast.

Think about it folks: If the attendants came over and just gave you a W2G along with a cash out ticket (like they did at the Monte Lago Casino on Lake Las Vegas) would you still be tipping them?

It is refreshing to have chimp actually be telling it like she sees it about what it's like after hitting a jackpot instead of all the cliche's we're reading about tipping.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

And AP's who tip are simply contradicting what their casino existence is all about. They're always boasting about this % advantage and that % edge. Yet when the required jackpot hits come they give away part of their boast.

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On most VP plays, I could tip 100% of the jackpot amount and still have a huge advantage. Of course, I don't over-tip. Usually round to the nearest thousand and give 1% of that.

Rob, I know you're unable to comprehend math...so I'll post this to others who think tipping destroys their advantage. 9/6 JOB has a return of 99.54%. The royal returns about 1.98% overall, let's just call it 2% to make it easy. If an AP, or any player for that matter, tipped 10% of the RF to the slot attendant, the royal would then return 1.8% (90% of 2% is 1.8%....or 0.02 * 0.9 = 0.018). In other words, you're losing 0.2% of your overall return if you tip a [massive] 10% of the handpay. Your new return is now approx. 99.34%. If that extra 0.2% causes you to have problems...you're in the wrong business. Of course, this only takes into account handpays on royal flushes. If you're playing high denoms or games where handpays are frequent (10/6 DB, $10 JOB, $5 DDB, any $50 or $100 denom), then it probably makes better sense to tip at the end of the session and/or ask for key-to-credit.

For the record, I don't tip slot personnel. And I very rarely tip dealers.

As Dan and Rob said, a lot of the problem is the precedents already set. In the past few months I noticed a few tipping situations that I had never seen before. I saw a lady tip an attendant for unlocking a machine that had been capped for her. And then I saw a man tip the cleaning lady whe she cleared some trash from his area. My first thought on both was "oh, should I be tipping for those services?" But then my brain said don't, because you'll just be setting a precedent and feel like you have to tip for those every time. I did not get the impression that either the attendant or cleaning lady expected to be tipped.

But I did see an unbelievably blatant move for a tip. A friend of mine had told me the story of how she had asked to be walked to her car one night by a security officer. She thanked him a gave him a few bucks. And then whenever she was at the casino this same officer started hanging around, offering to get her some water, etc. He was really bugging her by always hovering and trying to chit-chat and she eventually realized that he was fishing for tips. She was able to get rid of him by basically ignoring him every time he came around. And then he latched onto me with hovering around and offering water and whatever and I had to ignore him also to get rid of him.
So one day I noticed him talking to some people a few machines down from me. They were being friendly enough but I don't think they were initiating any of the conversation. And he seemed to be hovering in an unnatural way. Then he leaves and comes back with a few bottles of water. I was thinking what is a security guard doing spending his time talking and getting water for customers. Doesn't he have anything better to do regarding security? They thanked him and went back to playing their machines and talking to each other. Then he stood there for almost a minute before leaving, with none of them talking to him, and I realized that it was all about getting a tip. Fortunately they did not tip him.

Here is an interesting tipping story, and it shines a lot upon the entitled attitude of some who work for tips.

Keep in mind that I am not saying that ALL people who work for tips are bad or entitled. I am just saying that I have witnessed certain attitudes which are far from justified.

Anyway, around 2007, a young guy won a big poker tournament for like $1.2 million. In poker, the "customary" tip for the dealers is about 3% of what you cashed -- unless a tip is already taken out of the prize pool (as it often is, including at the WSOP).

Anyway, at this particular event (which was NOT a WSOP event, btw), they already took 3% out of the prizepool for the dealers. So the kid had already been forced to tip. His $1.2 million was the amount he took home AFTER the 3% was taken out.

Following so far?

Good.

Okay, so when the kid went to get his winnings processed, he was asked, "Do you want to leave any tips for the dealers and staff?" This was already a misleading and loaded question, because they hope that you don't realize that you already tipped 3% when they ask you that. Fortunately, this kid asked if he had already tipped, and he was told that, yes, he tipped 3% as part of the auto-tip.

At this point, he felt kinda strange and awkward. On one hand, he felt like a cheapskate for walking out with $1.2 million and not throwing something extra on top of the 3% already taken out of his prize for a tip. On the other hand, he realized that he already tipped $36,000 through the auto-tip, and didn't feel the need to heap something big on top of that. So rather than feel like a jerk by saying, "No", he instead answered, "Yeah, take out another $1,000 and give that to the dealers, too."

Well, some asshole leaked this on the 2+2 poker forums. The person who leaked it didn't bother mentioning that the kid had already auto-tipped $36,000, and just said that he "tipped $1,000 on a $1.2 million win", and there were 20 or so pages of people jumping on him and calling him the worst names imaginable.

Finally someone pointed out the auto-tip situation. Very few people retracted their venomous statements! In fact, they continued to pile on, calling his addition of $1,000 to a $36,000 auto-tip an "insult", and continued to lambaste him for his selfishness.

I felt so bad for him. He tried to do a little extra to be nice, and not only was his privacy violated, but he was attacked for trying to give a little bit extra.

Ironically, those who had left NOTHING above the auto-tip were never bashed. It was because he left $1,000 on top that made him look like a jerk.

Amazing.

Here is another tipping story, related to blackjack.

About 8 years ago, I visited the shithole known as Arizona Charlies in Vegas. I came with a friend who loved the place for whatever reason. He was what I call a pseudo-card-counter. He understood the basic principle behind counting, but he didn't know the strategy adjustments, nor did he always keep an accurate count. He just knew to bet big when a lot of small cards are out, and bet smaller when a lot of big cards are out.

Anyway, we were playing at a double deck table, and the dealer was a surly white guy around 60 years old. My friend was making dumb conversation like, "All right! You gonna give us good cards? You gonna make a winner out of us?" I think he was trying to make us not look like counters, but he was too over-the-top with it. Anyway, the dealer mistook this for my friend being superstitious.

"If you take care of me, I'll take care of you," the dealer replied.

I already didn't like that. Blackjack dealers should never suggest tips.

We continued playing. I was hoping that perhaps the dealer meant that he would "take care of us" by dealing further in the deck than normal (a big edge for double-deck counters), but as I suspected, that wasn't what he meant. Despite my friend dutifully tipping him every hand, he reshuffled at the exact expected point. I didn't tip at all, having already been put off by the guy's initial statement.

When my friend got dealt a blackjack, the dealer announced, "See! Look at that! You took care of me, and I took care of you! Keep doing it, and there will be more where that came from!"

Now it was 100% obvious that the dealer wasn't offering to do any "favors" for tips, but was just spouting off nonsense to take advantage of what he thought was a superstitious moron.

My friend wasn't a superstitious moron, but he also thought that he had to go along with whatever the dealer asked, and that it would somehow lead to rewards down the road. He wasn't getting it.

It got worse. I still refused to tip a single penny. My friend got dealt a 20 which held against the dealer's hand, while I got dealt a 14 and busted.

"See? You took care of me. Look what happened again. This guy here (pointing to me), he didn't, you see what happened."

I was about to really go off on him, but I restrained myself, because I knew this was my friend's "place" and I didn't want to be the one responsible for getting both of us 86'd.

We played about 15-20 more minutes. The dealer was getting progressively more obnoxious, to the point where he was actually rooting for me to lose. It took every ounce of internal strength to keep my mouth shut, aside from some calm statements like, "Oh come on, that's not very nice to root for me to lose..."

Finally I couldn't stand it anymore and quit. My friend followed me out. I told him he was being a complete moron for tipping this asshole, to which he replied, "Hey, I don't know, I'm not the blackjack guy like you are. I thought that's what we're supposed to do when the dealer said he was taking care of us!"

Terrible.

That story just moved me a little further towards the Rob end of the continuum. If I won a bundle at a WSOP event, I would specifically contact the IRS and force the dealers who shared that mandatory 36K tip to pay taxes on it.

"Mandatory tip" is, in my book, an oxymoron. It's a fee, not a tip.

The way of the world Dan. And that's what usually happens to weak people who feel tipping pressure.

I expected some sort of amusing, meaningless tipping-justification post by the amateur in life RS__. Now he has not 10%, not 17%....but 100% edges! What an idiot. And he digs his hole further by trying to rationalize smaller tipping. Gee, too bad his amazing theoretical "edges" are never guaranteed. Even then, his math wouldn't make sense.

Try again....and wise up.

One final obnoxious-dealer-asking-for-tips story.

Used to play blackjack at Bellagio. I don't anymore (or at any CET or MGM properties), because I don't want to get barred from them. It's not worth it.

Anyway, I ran pretty bad overall at Bellagio in my blackjack play, so they still beat me overall despite my counting. But this was one of my good sessions...

I was betting $600 per hand because the count was fairly good. I think it was a $200 minimum table. I was playing two spots. Dealer was showing a 5. I got dealt 4-4 on one hand and 8-3 on the other. Played the 4-4 first, and split it. Another 4. Split it again. Another 4! This was getting expensive. Played out hand #1 and got dealt a 7, meaning it was time to double. Did that, drew a 3. Yuck. Played out other hands, and ended up with something like 16, 15, and 18. Again, yuck. Then played the other dealt hand (the 8-3), doubled it, and drew a 6 for 17.

So this left me with the following 5 hands, facing a dealer 5 upcard:
14 $1200
16 $600
15 $600
18 $600
17 $1200

So that's a total of $4200 -- by far the largest hand of blackjack I had ever played in my life (remains true to this day).

I wasn't thrilled when the dealer turned over an 8 for a total of 13, meaning it was plenty flexible to crush me. Then came the beautiful 9, and I won every spot.

Dealer slid $4200 over to me, and I was ecstatic.

There was one other player with me, a stranger who had been at the table about 5 minutes. He remarked, "Wow!! That was huge! You should tip the dealer big for that one!"

Before I could say anything or make a motion to tip her (and I was about to do so), she snapped, "Yeah, he SHOULD tip me big for that one. I don't know if he will, but he should!"

I chose to tip her exactly $0, thanks to that comment.

Keep in mind that dealers at Bellagio were making like $100k per year at the time.

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Originally Posted by redietz

That story just moved me a little further towards the Rob end of the continuum. If I won a bundle at a WSOP event, I would specifically contact the IRS and force the dealers who shared that mandatory 36K tip to pay taxes on it.

"Mandatory tip" is, in my book, an oxymoron. It's a fee, not a tip.

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You don't have to. The IRS is informed about it by the casino. It's equivalent to tipping a server at a restaurant via your credit card, where the restaurant reports it as income.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

The way of the world Dan. And that's what usually happens to weak people who feel tipping pressure.

I expected some sort of amusing, meaningless tipping-justification post by the amateur in life RS__. Now he has not 10%, not 17%....but 100% edges! What an idiot. And he digs his hole further by trying to rationalize smaller tipping. Gee, too bad his amazing theoretical "edges" are never guaranteed. Even then, his math wouldn't make sense.

Try again....and wise up.

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When did I say I had a 100% edge? All I said was I could tip the entire jackpot amount and still have a big edge, because the RF only accounts for ~2% of the return/edge.

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Originally Posted by RS__

If an AP, or any player for that matter, tipped 10% of the RF to the slot attendant, the royal would then return 1.8% (90% of 2% is 1.8%....or 0.02 * 0.9 = 0.018). In other words, you're losing 0.2% of your overall return if you tip a [massive] 10% of the handpay. Your new return is now approx. 99.34%. If that extra 0.2% causes you to have problems...you're in the wrong business. Of course, this only takes into account handpays on royal flushes.

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I'm having a problem understanding this. Let's take my $100,000 royal for example. If I gave a tip of 10% which would have been $10,000 that would have been half of a $5 royal and in some cases could tip the scales between a profitable year and a losing year.

My point is while "percentages" might look small, the actual dollar value can be huge.

More meaningless theory, no matter which side of your mouth it comes out of.

So tell us, when Alan hit that $100k royal and if he tipped the entire jackpot, exactly HOW MUCH of the return would he have parted with?

Again, wise up.

RS__ is trying to say that his VP edge is so large (greater than 2%) that he is an expected winner even without hitting a single royal.

That's what he meant by "tipping 100% of my royal".

I'm having a real hard time believing any such play (2% or more edge in VP) exists today.

Playing off multipliers like I do gives me wayyyyyyyy more than a 2% edge. You just need a great location and no competition like I have. Vegas isn't the place for it. Even I doubt you'll find a stand alone game with a 2% edge though.

But back to tipping, I completely agree with Rob on it.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm having a problem understanding this. Let's take my $100,000 royal for example. If I gave a tip of 10% which would have been $10,000 that would have been half of a $5 royal and in some cases could tip the scales between a profitable year and a losing year.

My point is while "percentages" might look small, the actual dollar value can be huge.

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And hitting a royal for $100k is huge. If you had a 7% edge and typically played $25 denom, your EV would be about $7k-9k an hour. Granted, you're probably not going to find that at such high stakes.

If 10% of a royal is the difference between a profitable year and a negative year....I'm not really sure what to say.

Rob, Alan is not playing with an advantage. I'm not really sure what you're even trying to get at.

I never said I was playing with an advantage. I am playing negative expectation games with the house having an edge, generally, of 0.8% less what minimal free play I get. I don't include comps, offers, etc because they are outside of gaming. Free play I will count as helping to increase my edge but I count it with strict limitations and never dollar-for-dollar.

So since the house has an edge of about 0.8% over me, I can honestly say that $10,000 (10% of a $100K royal) will make the difference between a profitable and a negative year. In fact, 10% of a $20,000 royal can also be the difference.

Regardless of whether or not 10% of a royal makes a difference between a winning or losing year, who in their right mind is going to tip 10% ????

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Regardless of whether or not 10% of a royal makes a difference between a winning or losing year, who in their right mind is going to tip 10% ????

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I agree -- you shouldn't tip 10%. The purpose of my post was to illustrate the fact that you can tip a HUGE amount (10% of RF) and only lose a small amount on your return (lowers return by 0.2%). Not that you should tip that much, of course.

But when people get all pissy about tipping $100 for a $20K jackpot or $500 for a $100K jackpot.....I think it's completely ridiculous to claim tipping those amounts is somehow over-the-top or eats into your play too much. Tipping that much (or that little) is really only 4 wagers.

That's a good point that it's only four bets, RS__. And the biggest critic of tipping seems to be the same guy who says it doesn't matter if you're playing 8/5 or 7/5 Bonus when you hit the big pays.

It's got to do with the same type of things about gambling that always seem to escape you RS__. It doesn't matter what any of the theoretical percentages of certain hands are in relationship to tipping. It's the contradictory fact that AP's claim to go about their game in a grind-it-out way, always searching for any perceived edge in order that they believe they have some sort of an "advantage" over the casino. And at the same time, while those tips may be only a very small % of their overall enormous amount of play, they are anything BUT that when it comes to hard profit & loss figures. It is also this obvious type of logic that pushes you into claiming 10% and up "edges" without ever supporting one of them. You WANT to appear like you know more than others and you have some secret inside info that the minions will never be privy to. Yet you continuously undress yourself here at the same time.

Similarly, AP's pride themselves on being intelligent people who can spot, manipulate & adjust with the best of them. But tipping handpays actually exposes a major flaw in their bravado and makes no sense in machine play, as the player never does ask for any particular service from anybody. It simply is something that has to be done as part of the overall procedure, just like security guards, back room accountants, and front desk clerks are also required for proper operation of a facility. I spotted the handpay tipping anomaly back in 2000 and immediately adjusted my policy. Consequently, having had millions of dollars in W2G's since then, not tipping has easily paid for at least my last 2 cars. But more importantly, I no longer feel any pressure or intimidation just after receiving that last 20 or hundy in my hands. Of course, few if any will ever admit to feeling a bit uneasy once those handpays are completed, and even less will fess up to how RELIEVED the get once they hand over the cash to an undeserving attendant.

Gosh my concern is always did I tip enough?

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Playing off multipliers like I do gives me wayyyyyyyy more than a 2% edge. You just need a great location and no competition like I have. Vegas isn't the place for it. Even I doubt you'll find a stand alone game with a 2% edge though.

But back to tipping, I completely agree with Rob on it.

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What do you mean by "playing off multipliers"?

You mean those days where they multiply the reward credits you earn?

At CET properties, that is never enough to make any VP game +EV, let alone +2%.

No. Ultimate X, Multi-Streak, Barnyard Poker, etc.

I do this when not out traveling.

So you're referring to stalking Ultimate X games for the fluke of when people leave multipliers unplayed?

That seems very unpleasant and time consuming.

I actually have fun with it. Can be frustrating at times though. And by no means will you get rich doing it. That's what table games AP is for. Again, you need a good location and no competition.

All things considered, I'm with Rob on the tipping. Working hard to find games and learning proper strategy, then giving chunks away on tips, seems asinine. There's no objective reason to tip. I think part of it is sheer (and unacknowledged) superstition. Something "good" happened to you upon hitting the royal, so you share the wealth with those around you in some karmic bribery. It smacks of the idea of "seed money" sent to Christian televangelists who say good things will happen to you because of your generosity.

That whole thing about 2% plus advantages must be nice, but it's the equivalent of living somewhere where the local bookie occasionally screws up a line that one can whack. Nice work if one can get it.

In the bulk of the real world, there are no 2% advantages in video poker. Yeah, if I lived somewhere where I had a 20% video poker advantage, I'd tip great. And if I had Rob's schlong, I'd be a porn star.

Red, the common sense of what you're saying is obvious, but what muffs it up is these guys claiming there's 10% and greater vp "edges" so often it makes their heads spin clear off.

I haven't thought much about people who cave in and tip on handpays thinking the goodwill might just come back at them thru the machines someday. And there's millions of confused people who blindly send money into those religious TV quacks expecting their souls to be saved because they gave. It's all in the same misguided vein. All sending money to televangelists does is make people look stupid while making the TV personalities wealthy. And all tipping on handpays does is put a needless drain on one's cash.

I don't care what my edge is on vp or tables. I'm not tipping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

I don't care what my edge is on vp or tables. I'm not tipping.

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jbjb, what kind of reactions do you get from the attendants when you don't tip?
In particular, at places that you frequent and they know you?

I rarely get hand pays so it's pretty irrelevant. Most of my interaction with them is getting a jammed ticket out of the machine.

I wouldn't tip over a jammed ticket. I might ask for a meal comp if it took too long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chimp

jbjb, what kind of reactions do you get from the attendants when you don't tip?
In particular, at places that you frequent and they know you?

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Chimp,
I only go to Rincon and for about 10 years now. On hand pays I never tip. I play nothing but VP and only play .25, .50 and 1.00. I have never had a problem with any reaction. It has never been a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spojoey

Chimp,
I only go to Rincon and for about 10 years now. On hand pays I never tip. I play nothing but VP and only play .25, .50 and 1.00. I have never had a problem with any reaction. It has never been a problem.

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Yea, I wish I had never started tipping.
I wonder if we have seen each other at Rincon??? It's small enough and usually the regulars recognize each other.

I moved the posts about TIPPING to this thread.

In particular I want to keep the New Years Eve thread free of the tipping discussion.

Tipping is one way of trying to personally help alleviate income inequality. Of course then you have to think about who is always getting the tips. If the tips are concentrated in a few people then it doesn't help.

Question: when you win big, do you ever give your waitress a bigger tip?

I tip the housekeepers extra when I win big.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoeIncarnate

Tipping is one way of trying to personally help alleviate income inequality. Of course then you have to think about who is always getting the tips. If the tips are concentrated in a few people then it doesn't help.

Question: when you win big, do you ever give your waitress a bigger tip?

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Alleviate income inequality? WTF? You must be an Obama apologist. Who cares who makes what? It's a free and open market and if you want to make a good life then you go do it.

Having had a 25 year US Gov't./corporate America career spent mostly travelling, and then 10 years as a professional gambler from Az. making weekly trips to around Nevada, I've probably booked more hotel nights than a good many people. And I have never once left any tips for housekeeping anywhere. Ever. That's nearly as wasteful as giving away a part of your jackpot handpay to some floor attendant. These people deserve their salary and nothing from guests. When I show up I expect a clean room, and every new day I expect a clean room. And here's a flash: IT'S INCLUDED IN YOUR ROOM COST!! Please, I don't want to hear how these poor third world minorities and white trash rejects need our tips (sniffle sniffle....) in order to make it because their wages are so low.

I tip waitresses a buck a drink in the rare times I order a drink on the floor. Winning or losing big changes nothing. If I go into a restaurant after winning $50k or greater, I still tip based on service. I average 15%-25%.

Rob, explain to me please why you will tip a cocktail waitress and a waiter in a restaurant but you won't tip a housekeeper in a hotel? Everyone -- the waitress, the restaurant server, and the housekeeper are all employed and paid a wage, and are doing their jobs -- but you won't tip the housekeeper? I think you said you also tip valets. But not the housekeepers? Explain that please.

Valet: I choose to have this extra service. At casinos it's free, so I tip for it.

Cocktail Waitress: Same thing.
Bell Hop: Same thing.

Restaurant Server: This one's different. These folks are doing what they're already paid to do, but they interact with you multiple times in order that they make sure you got what you want the way you want it, and also to make your dining experience as enjoyable and pleasant as humanly possible. I tip gererously for this, and there's of course times the experience was bad and no tip was left.

Housekeeping: I don't tip the maintenance people who make sure my room has properly working stuff in it; I don't tip the security guards who make sure the hotel's guests are safe; & I don't tip the people who make sure our rooms are clean. It is all included in the price of the room, comped or not. I believe the reason people tip housekeeping and not the others I mentioned is because there's the possibility you will bump into these people during your stay. And since housekeeping has the slimy practice of putting tip envelopes in rooms, the intimidation factor purposely gets cranked up. However, if I request a special service like an extra pillow or more towels, I always tip the person who brings them.

Rob how you can draw the line between housekeeping and a car valet and a restaurant wait person? They're all paid by the hotel/casino, yet you tip the car valet and the waitress but not the housekeeper? And you don't tip the floor people who give you the hand pay and also have access to your social security number?

Wouldn't it serve you right if one of those floor people who you stiff gets angry and decides it's your social security number they give to their Cousin Vinny to sell on the black market?

It think this post you made on the "Quit While You're Ahead" thread explains everything about you:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

gambling addiction no longer haunts me as it did when I began as an AP, and not doing what the casinos want and expect me to do is a creed I strictly follow. This is what works for me.

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I think you don't tip floor people because it reminds you of your addiction and perhaps you blame them because they used to say "see you soon with another" or "hit that royal" when they gave you a handpay.

But what did housekeeping do to hurt you? Unless it's because the housekeepers might be foreigners and minorities -- and we know how you feel about them!

While waiting for the attendant to show up on a hand-pay, I'll get my tip ready and have it in my shirt pocket to pullout once the big money is in my hand. I hate when they breakdown the last hundred of the payout into twenties, thinking your gonna tip them in twenties. That's the reason I have only a $10 bill in my pocket ready to go. It's not like they're taking my order and bringing me my dinner. I don't mind tipping, I just won't tip a lot $wise. Call me cheap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

And since housekeeping has the slimy practice of putting tip envelopes in rooms, the intimidation factor purposely gets cranked up.

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Slimy practice? I find it convenient. I'd rather place my tip in an envelope for the housekeeper. Must be weak minded if you consider that intimidation.

I understand what Rob is saying here. If the service provided is one of his choosing, like valet (as opposed to self park) or going to a restaurant (as opposed to drive through), he tips. If the service provided has been paid for as a packaged entity unto itself, and he has no say in all of the aspects of that entity, then he will not tip for separate aspects of it, such as the housekeeping aspect of buying a room.

It's unusual, but his logic is pretty clear.

Alan, you always try very hard to break down my common sense posts, and while I know how much you love to argue, you're once again on the losing side here. I was going to answer your same question again, but red did a good job deciphering the secret code I must have used.

You ask how I can differentiate between what housekeeping does vs. valet & the wait staff? I already explained that but 2 or 3 times might do it. Valet: I choose the service. Wait staff: there's multiple interactions with them as they try to make your dining experience a great experience. Housekeeping: simply a part of the hotel room fee.

Of course, you skipped over the correlation between security guards, maintenance people, and housekeeping. There's your answer if you want to see it.

Not sure what being an AP addict has to do with tipping. That's a swing-and-a-miss.

Those housekeeping envelopes: first, I don't care if it's Lupe or Maria or Rosarita or Malcom who takes care of my room. In fact, when I see envelopes the 1st thing I do is rip them up and throw them out. But there's apparently some people here who do get intimidated by those envelopes with names on them, and because they're afraid of what these third-worlders might think of them if they knew who tore their begging envelopes up, they take the safe road and leave tips....many of which are undoubtedly reluctant ones.

You people need to take control of your own lives and stop allowing what you feel is political correctness control what you do. Then again, some of you just might start leaving tips at the front desk for security, maintenance, and accounting. Figures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

I understand what Rob is saying here. If the service provided is one of his choosing, like valet (as opposed to self park) or going to a restaurant (as opposed to drive through), he tips. If the service provided has been paid for as a packaged entity unto itself, and he has no say in all of the aspects of that entity, then he will not tip for separate aspects of it, such as the housekeeping aspect of buying a room.

It's unusual, but his logic is pretty clear.

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So you agree and defend this logic?

I have to cogitate, as Jed Clampett used to say. Rob's logic is internally consistent, while your logic of tipping hand pays but not security is inconsistent. At least he has rhyme and reason as opposed to cultural fashion of the moment. I mean, I have no idea if people tip this way or that in various countries; I'll have to do the research. But tipping housekeeping or hand pays because it's what Americans do at this particular point in time is not my idea of why I should tip. Rob at least has traveled enough internationally to be able to put American tipping behaviors in some kind of overall context. I have not, to be frank.

One thing Rob has going for him is that his style puts the brakes on "tipping creep," which we have all seen recently. Tipping Starbucks counter help is an example. Tipping at sports ticket windows is another from the casino side of things. These were rare 30 years ago. Why are we experiencing this tipping creep? Is it because those in service positions no longer make reasonable money vis-a-vis the upper class?

I'm not totally against housekeeping tips, mind you, but as I said, I need to cogitate and come up with some reasonable rules for this.

I have a rule about tipping housekeepers: always leave a tip.
I've also tipped casino security on the occasion when they walk me to my car. At Pechanga the security officer did not accept my tip because he said their rules prohibited them from accepting tips.

Alan, I think you'd have tipped Ted Bundy if he gave you advice on how to pick up girls....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Is it because those in service positions no longer make reasonable money vis-a-vis the upper class?.

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It's because they have become APs. And the tip jars are their form of vulturing. Lol

Or how to dump them....