CET confirms most Seven Stars benefits from 2015 will remain for 2016

Just got an e-mail from CET, which I assume most of you received, as well.

Confirmed as 2016 Seven Stars benefits:

- Guaranteed comp room (not clear if rules have changed though)
- NCL cruise
- Annual Trip ($1200 airfare and $500 folio credit not confirmed, but I'm guessing are likely to repeat)
- Signature Event "with 4 dates to choose from"
- Companion Card
- Celebration dinner (no details give if will be the same)

Diamond Aspirations dinner will return, as well.

Remember that you can start redeeming your 2016 benefits on February 1.

All well and good but I would rather see an announcement that the 8/5 Bonus video poker games in the high limit room gave 1 tier credit for every $10 coin-in instead of $25 coin-in.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

All well and good but I would rather see an announcement that the 8/5 Bonus video poker games in the high limit room gave 1 tier credit for every $10 coin-in instead of $25 coin-in.

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Why's that?

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Originally Posted by RS__

Why's that?

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They require $25 coin-in per tier credit which means you are shortchanged on comps, tier score, Great Gift Wrap Up, and the whole ball of wax. Play anything full pay in Vegas you are short changed on comps.

You're a dealer in Vegas... you don't know that?

While the full pay table is supposed to compensate for that, the reality is if you play full pay games you are short changed by total rewards.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

They require $25 coin-in per tier credit which means you are shortchanged on comps, tier score, Great Gift Wrap Up, and the whole ball of wax. Play anything full pay in Vegas you are short changed on comps.

You're a dealer in Vegas... you don't know that?

While the full pay table is supposed to compensate for that, the reality is if you play full pay games you are short changed by total rewards.

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If you redeem your RCs for FP, you're giving up an extra 150% of FP. That sure sounds like a lot, but, if you do $1M coin in on $25/pt compared to $1M on $10/pt, you'd be getting $320 in FP instead of $800.

Your comps are not based on how many points you have (unless you use your points to buy stuff, but even then, same thing as above, it doesn't even matter since it's such a small amount of your action, 0.1%). They are based on your theoretical loss.

Yes, I know the difference between full-pay and poor pay tables, and you'll (usually) get better comps/kickbacks/etc. when playing the poor paytable games. I don't see what this has anything to do with me being a dealer in LV, though...


I thought you were a big proponent against "playing for comps". If you didn't get comped, would you still play?

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Originally Posted by RS__

If you redeem your RCs for FP, you're giving up an extra 150% of FP.

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When I play in Vegas I use my comps for dining or shows or gift shop purchases if permitted. Never for free play. At Rincon where I didn't stay in the hotel I routinely used comp dollars to play -- but not if I knew a Vegas trip was coming up.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Your comps are not based on how many points you have (unless you use your points to buy stuff, but even then, same thing as above, it doesn't even matter since it's such a small amount of your action, 0.1%). They are based on your theoretical loss.

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No. Your Reward Credits are equal to your tier score earned in Vegas. You said you're a dealer, huh? Guess you don't know how Total Rewards works. If you earn 10,000 tier points you also get 10,000 Reward Credits. Theoretical loss and all that other "stuff" applies to offers you get in the mail or what you might squeeze out of your host.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Yes, I know the difference between full-pay and poor pay tables, and you'll (usually) get better comps/kickbacks/etc. when playing the poor paytable games. I don't see what this has anything to do with me being a dealer in LV, though...

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Right. You don't play under the Total Rewards system. Where do you play?

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Originally Posted by RS__

I thought you were a big proponent against "playing for comps". If you didn't get comped, would you still play?

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I don't play for comps, but I certainly want the best comps I can get for my play. When I play 8/5 Bonus whether at $5, $10 or $25 I am being shorted what I would have gotten for the same coin-in at 7/5 Bonus. There were times I played 8/5 and never got a full house.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

They require $25 coin-in per tier credit which means you are shortchanged on comps, tier score, Great Gift Wrap Up, and the whole ball of wax. Play anything full pay in Vegas you are short changed on comps.

You're a dealer in Vegas... you don't know that?

While the full pay table is supposed to compensate for that, the reality is if you play full pay games you are short changed by total rewards.

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This is nothing new and is like this in a lot of locations.

The corrupted term "full pay" drives me nuts. So if CET shifts 80% of their bonus machines to 7/5, then 7/5 becomes the new "full pay," since "full pay" refers to the most commonly available machine and not 100% payback. This kind of fluid lingo serving the casino's interests is very 1984. This week 8/5 is full pay. Next week 7/5 is full pay. Next year, maybe 6/5 is full pay.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

When I play in Vegas I use my comps for dining or shows or gift shop purchases if permitted. Never for free play. At Rincon where I didn't stay in the hotel I routinely used comp dollars to play -- but not if I knew a Vegas trip was coming up.



No. Your Reward Credits are equal to your tier score earned in Vegas. You said you're a dealer, huh? Guess you don't know how Total Rewards works. If you earn 10,000 tier points you also get 10,000 Reward Credits. Theoretical loss and all that other "stuff" applies to offers you get in the mail or what you might squeeze out of your host.



Right. You don't play under the Total Rewards system. Where do you play?




I don't play for comps, but I certainly want the best comps I can get for my play. When I play 8/5 Bonus whether at $5, $10 or $25 I am being shorted what I would have gotten for the same coin-in at 7/5 Bonus. There were times I played 8/5 and never got a full house.

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I never said I was a dealer at any TR (Caesars) property. Like I asked before, what does me dealing have anything to do with how TR works?


Almost all comps come from mail/online offers or through a host. A miniscule amount of comps come from reward credits.

Are you really complaining about the reward credits thing? If you play on 7/5 BP, you get 0.1% back in RC comps. If you play 8/5 BP, you get back 0.04% in RC comps. The grand difference is a whopping 0.06%!!

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Originally Posted by redietz

The corrupted term "full pay" drives me nuts. So if CET shifts 80% of their bonus machines to 7/5, then 7/5 becomes the new "full pay," since "full pay" refers to the most commonly available machine and not 100% payback. This kind of fluid lingo serving the casino's interests is very 1984. This week 8/5 is full pay. Next week 7/5 is full pay. Next year, maybe 6/5 is full pay.

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This would be appropriate in a separate thread.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I never said I was a dealer at any TR (Caesars) property. Like I asked before, what does me dealing have anything to do with how TR works?

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Well, for a start, you don't know how TR works.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Almost all comps come from mail/online offers or through a host. A miniscule amount of comps come from reward credits.

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Really? For my New Year's Eve trip I am getting:
Free room (it comes from my tier score, having earned 7 Stars, making me entitled to my promotion).
Two ticket to Celine (it comes from my tier score, having earned 7 Stars, making me entitled to my promotion).
$500 7 Stars Experience Folio Credit (it comes from my tier score, having earned points above the basic 7 Stars requirement).
$500 7 Stars Annual Dinner comps (it comes from my tier score, having earned 7 Stars, making me entitled to my promotion).
$480 Reward Credits (it comes from play on previous trips and not using these Reward Credits for anything previously).

My host had nothing to do with these offers. My theoretical had nothing to do with these offers. In fact, had I been playing 7/5 Bonus instead of 8/5 Bonus you could make the argument that I would have 2.5-times as much in Reward Credits.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Are you really complaining about the reward credits thing? If you play on 7/5 BP, you get 0.1% back in RC comps. If you play 8/5 BP, you get back 0.04% in RC comps. The grand difference is a whopping 0.06%!!

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If I were playing $500 a year, you're right -- 0.6 percent would mean nothing. But if a 7 Stars player puts through $1.5-million at video poker, that 0.6% in Reward Credits makes a difference. And if a 7 Stars Player put through, say, $6-million at video poker, the difference is a bit bigger, don't you think?

Is it confirmed that you really get reduced RCs along with reduced tiers? I've rarely run play in those crap machines, so I'm not sure. But I'm not sure you're correct that 1 RC always equals 1 tier, Alan. It's possible that $50 of coin-in will earn you 5 RCs and 2 tiers in such machines.

But putting that aside, even RCs are reduced by a factor of 2.5, I agree it's not negligible, but the bigger deal is the reduction of tier credits. It takes 2.5x as long to earn Seven Stars on those machines (which is VERY significant), and it also takes 2.5x longer to earn those experience credits for the Seven Stars Experiences (not as much of a big deal, but still something).

But I guarantee that CET mainly did this in order to make it more difficult to grind Seven Stars with these machines. They just don't want you reaching Seven Stars with a $2k-ish theoretical loss.

There are only 3 properties left with full pay (sorry redietz) VP which also gives a tier credit per $10: Rincon, New Orleans, and Tahoe.

Rincon will probably kill theirs off fairly soon. I imagine they only keep theirs because nearby competition also has 99%+ games, but I think they are just about done catering to that type of customer.

May stick around a bit longer at Tahoe and New Orleans, but I think this is on its way out, which will be the end of a lot of Seven Stars grinders such as myself.

Yes, Dan. One Tier Point = One Reward Credit. You didn't know that????
See: https://www.totalrewards.com/content...l-rewards.html

And see: https://www.totalrewards.com/content...l-rewards.html which shows the same values for tier points and reward credits from your play.

Earn at least 1 Reward Credit for every $5 you play on a reel slot machine or $10 on a video poker machine. Some machines have lower earn rates and these games will be clearly marked with the different rate.

Oh... and the RCs do not come on the tier credit bonuses. ONLY on the "earned" tier credits.

Same with Great Gift Wrap Up Points. 1 GGWU Point = 1 Earned Tier Point. So you are also penalized for the GGWU on the full pay machines.

0.06% of $1M coin in is $600.

That is [less than] ONE four of a kind (5's thru K's) on $5 BP.

$1M coin in on a $5 game is 40,000 hands, or 50 hours of play (at 800 HPH).



In other words: There is no difference.

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Originally Posted by Dan

There are only 3 properties left with full pay (sorry redietz) VP which also gives a tier credit per $10: Rincon, New Orleans, and Tahoe.

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How do you define "full pay"? I'm certain of 3 other (TR/Caesars) properties that have $10/pt on full-pay VP. There are 2 others I'm fairly sure are still $10/pt, but could have been changed recently.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Yes, Dan. One Tier Point = One Reward Credit. You didn't know that????

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I knew that was true in MOST cases -- at standard machines where you earn one tier per $10 on VP and one tier per $5 on slots.

But these new reduced-tier machines, I am not sure. Someone should verify this.

I remember earlier in the year you reported that Rincon's Double Super Times Pay machine did NOT give you tier points on the 2 credit surcharge on a 5-credit play (that is, at a 5-play 50-cent machine, which was $17.50 per spin, you said I would only get comped and tiered based upon $12.50), but that turned out not to be true.

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Originally Posted by RS__

0.06% of $1M coin in is $600.

That is [less than] ONE four of a kind (5's thru K's) on $5 BP.

$1M coin in on a $5 game is 40,000 hands, or 50 hours of play (at 800 HPH).



In other words: There is no difference.

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I ran $500k of coin-in to earn my Seven Stars.

Ignoring some of the RC promotional bonuses I got at Rincon, I earned $500 worth of RCs.

Had I been earning them 2.5x slower, I would have earned $200 worth of RCs.

That's $300 difference (which I know is what you said -- $600 per $1M coin).

To me that's not insignificant, especially when the expected loss of $500k coin-in at 99.54% JoB is $2300, so $300 is 13% of that.

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Originally Posted by RS__

0.06% of $1M coin in is $600.

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I'm going to guess that $600 is about half of a week's income for a Vegas craps dealer with tips.

I am humored how you point out that $600 is less than one four of a kind (kings is your example) on $5 Bonus Poker.

And for 7 Stars it's $1,500,000 of coin in on a 7/5 machine. On an 8/5 machine in Vegas it's 2.5-times that much.

Edited to add: without bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I ran $500k of coin-in to earn my Seven Stars.

Ignoring some of the RC promotional bonuses I got at Rincon, I earned $500 worth of RCs.

Had I been earning them 2.5x slower, I would have earned $200 worth of RCs.

That's $300 difference (which I know is what you said -- $600 per $1M coin).

To me that's not insignificant, especially when the expected loss of $500k coin-in at 99.54% JoB is $2300, so $300 is 13% of that.

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Dan, RS___ is once again way over his head here.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I knew that was true in MOST cases -- at standard machines where you earn one tier per $10 on VP and one tier per $5 on slots.

But these new reduced-tier machines, I am not sure. Someone should verify this.

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Easily verified. You look at the read-out on the machines at Caesars.

You might not know this, but several years ago, Caesars offered Reward Credit Bonuses for playing on high limit machines. Those "bonus reward credits" have been wiped out for a couple years now.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm going to guess that $600 is about half of a week's income for a Vegas craps dealer with tips.

I am humored how you point out that $600 is less than one four of a kind (kings is your example) on $5 Bonus Poker.

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I'd say it's much closer to 1 week of income than half a week. I think it's kinda funny too. Gambling makes you (dull? or immune maybe?) to money. Just the other day I went to a casino with someone and we were about to play something -- test it out. He asked if I brought any money, I said not really maybe a little. I looked in my wallet, had about $2K. Yet, most people would be ecstatic if they had $2K in their wallet.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I ran $500k of coin-in to earn my Seven Stars.

Ignoring some of the RC promotional bonuses I got at Rincon, I earned $500 worth of RCs.

Had I been earning them 2.5x slower, I would have earned $200 worth of RCs.

That's $300 difference (which I know is what you said -- $600 per $1M coin).

To me that's not insignificant, especially when the expected loss of $500k coin-in at 99.54% JoB is $2300, so $300 is 13% of that.

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I was talking about 7/5 BP and 8/5 BP....not 9/6 JOB.

For 7/5 BP, your EV would be about -20K per $1M coin in.

Of course that 0.06% is going to make a bigger difference, or appear to make a bigger difference, when you go from playing shit games (2% HE) to good games (0.5% HE or 0.3% HE).


Had you played it at Bally's ex-99.99% JOB (90/9/6, or 9/6/90 as some say), you'd be claiming the $300 is MONSTEROUS. 0.0038% of $500K is $19.


Either way, 0.06% is 0.06% of your coin in. It is not "a lot" nor significant in any way, shape, or form.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I was talking about 7/5 BP and 8/5 BP....not 9/6 JOB.

For 7/5 BP, your EV would be about -20K per $1M coin in.

Of course that 0.06% is going to make a bigger difference, or appear to make a bigger difference, when you go from playing shit games (2% HE) to good games (0.5% HE or 0.3% HE).


Had you played it at Bally's ex-99.99% JOB (90/9/6, or 9/6/90 as some say), you'd be claiming the $300 is MONSTEROUS. 0.0038% of $500K is $19.


Either way, 0.06% is 0.06% of your coin in. It is not "a lot" nor significant in any way, shape, or form.

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Huh???

We're talking about getting 1% on your coin in or getting 0.4% on your coin in. What game you play isn't at issue here. It's the points/RCs you are getting for the coin-in that's the issue. And any way you look at it, it's a big difference whether it's 0.4% or 1% on a million dollars of coin-in.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I was talking about 7/5 BP and 8/5 BP....not 9/6 JOB.

For 7/5 BP, your EV would be about -20K per $1M coin in.

Of course that 0.06% is going to make a bigger difference, or appear to make a bigger difference, when you go from playing shit games (2% HE) to good games (0.5% HE or 0.3% HE).


Had you played it at Bally's ex-99.99% JOB (90/9/6, or 9/6/90 as some say), you'd be claiming the $300 is MONSTEROUS. 0.0038% of $500K is $19.


Either way, 0.06% is 0.06% of your coin in. It is not "a lot" nor significant in any way, shape, or form.

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Caesars only imposes the $25/tier restriction on the 99%+ games.

If you want to shoot off on 98.45% 9-5 JoB like a dumbass, they will let you earn $10/tier.

Yeah, 7* isn't worth the nearly $30,000 expected loss on either 7/5 or 8/5 BP($29850 & $31125 respectively based on coin in figures Alan gave). When all of the benefits are factored in, Caesars isn't giving nowhere near this much back in return. Now I'm not saying no one shouldn't use their card. But this just isn't worth chasing after.

BTW, I am still holding to the claim that the reduced TIER credits are the bigger deal here.

If CET eliminated RCs entirely (and didn't replace them with anything comparable), I would still grind the 99%+ VP games to earn Seven Stars.

If they changed all of the 99%+ games to $25/tier, I probably would give up on Seven Stars.

Like I said, there are another 3 casinos (that you didn't mention) that have 99%+ with $10/pt.

The reason why that 0.06% (NOT 0.6%) seems like a big number is because the game Dan played had a low HE (0.46%).


Alan thinks we're comparing $1 to $0.40....it's actually $0.10 to $0.04!

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Yeah, 7* isn't worth the nearly $30,000 expected loss on either 7/5 or 8/5 BP($29850 & $31125 respectively based on coin in figures Alan gave). When all of the benefits are factored in, Caesars isn't giving nowhere near this much back in return. Now I'm not saying no one shouldn't use their card. But this just isn't worth chasing after.

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It's not quite this bad. Also keep in mind you earn 7* for TWO years, not one, so there's also that.

You can also get to 7* via $500k coin-in, thanks to the bonus tier credits.

But here is the theoretical cost of reaching 7*, ignoring RCs and other comps you will earn along the way:

7/5 BP: $9927
9/5 JoB: $7750
8/5 BP: $4170
8/5 BP Aces and Faces (best at Rincon): $3725
9/6 JoB: $2300
25/16/10/4/4/3/2/1 Deuces Wild (NSUD): $1360

The above assumes 1 tier per $10, and playing optimally for tier credits where you stop at exactly 2500 or 5000 base tier credits each session.

Sadly, the Vegas games have gotten so bad that, if only griding 7* there, you would still be best off playing the 99.54% JoB at $25/tier, because that would be a $5750 theoretical loss, whereas playing 9-5 JoB at $10/tier would be $7750.

The best 3 options to get to 7* cheaply these days are Aces and Faces at Rincon (99.26%), 9-6 Jacks or Better at Tahoe (99.54%), and Not So Ugly Duck Deuces at New Orleans (99.73%).

Everything else is over $5000 theoretical (with a lot of variance), so it wouldn't be worth it.

I probably milk about $7000 of value out of my 7* per year, not counting the additional little perks which don't have much monetary value but are nice (line skipping, better service, minor room upgrades, etc).

But if it were to cost $5000 or more to get there, I wouldn't bother, even for 2 years of benefits. This is because some of my value is not as good as cash -- such as comp meals, highly discounted cruise, $1200 airfare to CET destination, etc. I manage to make use of these to where it becomes something actually fun/valuable for me (such as creating road trips around the 7* annual trips), but it's still not as good as cash which is completely flexible.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Like I said, there are another 3 casinos (that you didn't mention) that have 99%+ with $10/pt.

The reason why that 0.06% (NOT 0.6%) seems like a big number is because the game Dan played had a low HE (0.46%).


Alan thinks we're comparing $1 to $0.40....it's actually $0.10 to $0.04!

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What are the 3 casinos? Or is this a secret?

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Originally Posted by RS__

Like I said, there are another 3 casinos (that you didn't mention) that have 99%+ with $10/pt.

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Really? Must be an AP trade secret.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Alan thinks we're comparing $1 to $0.40....it's actually $0.10 to $0.04!

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Gee, the last time I looked the ratio of one dollar to 40-cents is the same as 10-cents to 4-cents.

Well, I did just find Harrah's Joliet has:

9/7/5 Double Bonus (99.11% return)
9/6 Double Double Bonus (98.98% return)

and those are $10/tier

Is this one of the three?

There's always Windsor's 99.95 Pick Em which is $80 coin in ($57.60 US as of today) per tier credit.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There's always Windsor's 99.95 Pick Em which is $80 coin in ($57.60 US as of today) per tier credit.

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Yep, that's a great way to make 7 Stars.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There's always Windsor's 99.95 Pick Em which is $80 coin in ($57.60 US as of today) per tier credit.

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Useless to run up tiers.

This is on a $1/$2 play dollar machine. That means at most you can run $10 (Canadian) at a time.

So you would have to run 8 hands just to earn one tier credit.

In order to get to 2500 tier credits for the day (which is what you need to get optimal bonus tier credits), you would have to play 20,000 hands in one day, which is obscene.

In fact, for most people it couldn't be done, even if they committed the full 24 hour period to it.

Oh, looks like Harrahs Cherokee (NC) has $10/tier games.

NSUD, 9/6 JoB...

Too bad it's not closer.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Useless to run up tiers.

This is on a $1/$2 play dollar machine. That means at most you can run $10 (Canadian) at a time.

So you would have to run 8 hands just to earn one tier credit.

In order to get to 2500 tier credits for the day (which is what you need to get optimal bonus tier credits), you would have to play 20,000 hands in one day, which is obscene.

In fact, for most people it couldn't be done, even if they committed the full 24 hour period to it.

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Agreed and I wouldn't try it even if I wasn't persona non grata at Caesars properties and or wanted 7*. But remember, pick em is a much faster game than draw poker.

I know of one non Caesars location that actually had better than normal comps and cash back for its high limit vp than it did for the main floor. This place gutted all the offerings early last year though and have been suffering since.

I am not a Bob Dancer nut, but I run into information.

Bob Dancer's go to spots to play video poker are at (1) Harrah's New Orleans and (2) Harrah's Lake Tahoe at $10 coin in per tier credit. Of course he uses the travel benefit from seven stars to get to New Orleans, and if he has to travel anywhere, he writes it off as a tax expense as a writer for the Las Vegas Advisor for as long as he writes an article about it. He even does tax write offs on the Cruise port fees that are not covered by TR Seven STars.

For Vegas, it used to be 9-5 Jacks or Better in which Dan Druff called a dumbass will play. But Bob Dancer used to play that up until 2014 for a reason, when TR was profitable to him. Now TR is merely an entertainment/leisure benefit to him.

For those complaining about the $25 coin in per tier credit, the folks in Atlantic City properties have it worse. Theirs is $50 coin in per tier credit, but they have more favorable paytables at low denominations.

The third place that Dan Druff is curious about is Harrah's Reno, but they gutted their VP, $1 JoB is gone so only quarters. It will take longer to get the PIAD bonuses, let alone DIAD.

Dan, my guess is that RS__ was hinting at Vegas casinos with 99% video poker with $10/point.

$10/point VP anywhere besides Vegas isn't something I would consider because I wouldn't travel out of town to even go to a casino.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan, my guess is that RS__ was hinting at Vegas casinos with 99% video poker with $10/point.

$10/point VP anywhere besides Vegas isn't something I would consider because I wouldn't travel out of town to even go to a casino.

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I heard something about a 99%+ Ultimate X machine in Flamingo, but I'm not sure it's still there, or where to find it.

I recall about two years ago seeing an 8/5 $1 Bonus game in the Flamingo and I also heard about Planet Hollywood having 8/5 Bonus at $1 at some point. I also recall playing a $1 8/5 Bonus game at the Rio. But I also think this was before Caesars started its $25/point system for full pay games.

No, I see that they downgraded the 99%+ Ultimate X machine from Flamingo back in March.

Nothing better than regular 7/5 BP at Flamingo now.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I heard something about a 99%+ Ultimate X machine in Flamingo, but I'm not sure it's still there, or where to find it.

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Someone reported a downgrade earlier this year on 7/5 Bonus Poker. If you were going that route, it is difficult to master (no training software for Ultimate X) and the variance is extremely high.

Planet Hollywood has 9/5 JoB Double Super Times Pay, which is 98.95% return with more variance.

That's as good as I could find for $10/tier in Vegas -- at least at high enough limits where earning 5000 tiers in a day is reasonable.

There are apparently some 99% games like 8-5 BP at the Rio, but only $1 1-play, meaning you're going to have to spend all day there just to get to 2500 tiers.

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Originally Posted by alpax

Someone reported a downgrade earlier this year on 7/5 Bonus Poker. If you were going that route, it is difficult to master (no training software for Ultimate X) and the variance is extremely high.

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From what I can see, it's downgraded at Flamingo but still exists at Harrah's, but it's only $1 1-play there.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Planet Hollywood has 9/5 JoB Double Super Times Pay, which is 98.95% return with more variance.

That's as good as I could find for $10/tier in Vegas -- at least at high enough limits where earning 5000 tiers in a day is reasonable.

There are apparently some 99% games like 8-5 BP at the Rio, but only $1 1-play, meaning you're going to have to spend all day there just to get to 2500 tiers.

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Double super times pay in theory has variance similar to ultimate X. So I would prefer the 8-5 Bonus Poker grind at the RIO in terms of bankroll requirements. 10 hours for Platinum in a Day should do it for the average person.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Gee, the last time I looked the ratio of one dollar to 40-cents is the same as 10-cents to 4-cents.

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The ratio is not what matters. You can buy gum at the store (I think 5-piece pack, Juicy Fruit if my memory serves) for something like $0.39. But if we spent $1 on it -- who cares? Sure it's an extra 156% increase in price, but the amount is so small, it's negligible. Now let's say you're out buying a new car, beautiful Mercedez, you have done your research and the one you want is typically $50K. The car you see is for sale for $128K. Same brand, model, interior, etc. Yup, still a 156% increase....but it's not the same thing as paying an extra 156% for the pack of gum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RS__

The ratio is not what matters.

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The ratio is all that matters. If I am shorted 6-tenths of one percent on a $10 purchase it's 6-cents.
If I am shorted 6-tenths of one percent on a $1,000,000 purchase it's $6,000.

I see both sides of this.

I understand RS's point that a small overall difference in price/value is negligible, regardless of the percentage involved.

However, I can see how a frequent player like Alan is annoyed that he would get shortchanged $300 RCs per $500k bet due to the change in RC award rate at better paying Vegas machines (if this is true, which I'm still not sure is).

It's not like Alan is talking about being shortchanged $30 after a year of heavy gambling. I agree that's negligible and isn't worth whining about.

However, let's say you play 9-6 JoB at Caesars exclusively, in order to earn 7*. It would take $1.25m worth of coin-in if played optimally, due to the 2.5x tier slowdown. Provided that RCs also slow at the same rate (as Alan claims), that's $750 worth of RCs you're losing.

Will $750 break a gambler who can afford to play $1.25m worth of VP coin-in? No. But it's still $750, and it's still near 15% of the expected loss on that machine.

That is NOT negligible, no matter which way you try to slice it.

It's not major, but it's not negligible.

But again, the biggest issue here is the slower tier accrual, as it requires 2.5x as much pay to reach Seven Stars, which is huge.

Dan please stop questioning whether or not Reward Credits accrue at the same rate as earned Tier Points. They do. It says so right on the Total Rewards website. And if you have any doubts call any Total Rewards office and ask them.

But to save you the call here are the links to the pages that spell it out -- that you get one Reward Credit for each Tier Point earned. Remember, Reward Credits are not added for Bonus Tier Points:

For Reward Credits: https://www.totalrewards.com/content...l-rewards.html
Key thing to see:
Earn at least 1 Reward Credit for every $5 you play on a reel slot machine or $10 on a video poker machine. Some machines have lower earn rates and these games will be clearly marked with the different rate.

For Tier Credits: https://www.totalrewards.com/content...l-rewards.html
Key thing to see:
Earn 1 Tier Credit for every $5 you play on a reel slot machine and for every $10 you play on a video poker machine. Some machines have lower earn rates and these games will be clearly marked with the different rate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I see both sides of this.

I understand RS's point that a small overall difference in price/value is negligible, regardless of the percentage involved.

However, I can see how a frequent player like Alan is annoyed that he would get shortchanged $300 RCs per $500k bet due to the change in RC award rate at better paying Vegas machines (if this is true, which I'm still not sure is).

It's not like Alan is talking about being shortchanged $30 after a year of heavy gambling. I agree that's negligible and isn't worth whining about.

However, let's say you play 9-6 JoB at Caesars exclusively, in order to earn 7*. It would take $1.25m worth of coin-in if played optimally, due to the 2.5x tier slowdown. Provided that RCs also slow at the same rate (as Alan claims), that's $750 worth of RCs you're losing.

Will $750 break a gambler who can afford to play $1.25m worth of VP coin-in? No. But it's still $750, and it's still near 15% of the expected loss on that machine.

That is NOT negligible, no matter which way you try to slice it.

It's not major, but it's not negligible.

But again, the biggest issue here is the slower tier accrual, as it requires 2.5x as much pay to reach Seven Stars, which is huge.

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Then we're back to square one.

What if you had played 9/6/90 JOB, with a 0.0038% HE? EV is -$19. $300 is 1,578% of $19.....it seems significant because the HE is low.

When you play worse games. Almost a $10k loss on 7/5 BP to reach 7 stars.


0.06% is 6/10,000 or 3/5,000.

Imagine winning one weekend at the casino. You stop by the bank and deposit your winnings before going home. You deposit $5,000. A day or 2 later it clears or whatever (I always used the ATM, so takes some time to add to account). But low and behold -- it only added $4,997.

This is negligible.

RS__ it seems to me you are including the return of the game with the value of your tier points and Reward Credits. Is that right?

If so, we are not discussing the return of the game. We are talking about the cost of tier points and the cost of Reward Credits. In both cases, if you are playing a full pay machine that requires $25 per tier point and $25 per Reward Credit, then you are getting fewer tier points and fewer Reward Credits than if you were playing a game that gave you one tier point for $10 coin in and one Reward Credit for $10 coin in.

And this has nothing to do with winning or losing when you play.

Let me say this: Suppose you put through coin-in of $10,000 and broke even at the end of your session.

If you played at a $10/tier point game and broke even you would have 1,000 tier points and 1,000 Reward Credits.
If you played at a $25/tier point game and broke even you would have 400 tier points and 400 Reward Credits.

That's all we're talking about here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RS__

Imagine winning one weekend at the casino. You stop by the bank and deposit your winnings before going home. You deposit $5,000. A day or 2 later it clears or whatever (I always used the ATM, so takes some time to add to account). But low and behold -- it only added $4,997.

This is negligible.

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Negligible? I would call the bank and ask "what happened to my three dollars?"

So I'll mention a few things here:

7/5 Bonus Poker w/ Ultimate X *is full pay* at 99.4%. The machines at Flamingo may have been downgraded or removed, but I played them in Jan. 2015 and they were $10 for 1 tier credit.

There are still at least 10 VP machines in Atlantic City offering full-pay games, $10 for 1 tier credit. Denominations range from 25c to $5. In addition, you also get kiosk "bounce back" free play equal to 0.2% to 0.3% of your coin-in about 48-72 hours after you've finished playing.

In Lake Tahoe, 9/6 JoB w/ Extra Draw Frenzy is the highest returning, non-progressive game at 99.62%. $10 for 1 tier credit.

"There are still at least 10 VP machines in Atlantic City offering full-pay games, $10 for 1 tier credit. Denominations range from 25c to $5."

I may be wrong but I think all those machines were changed this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jetermacaw

"There are still at least 10 VP machines in Atlantic City offering full-pay games, $10 for 1 tier credit. Denominations range from 25c to $5."

I may be wrong but I think all those machines were changed this year.

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All are still there as of today. I just played $2 single line 9/7 Triple Double Poker today ($10 for 1 TC) to finish renewing my Total Rewards tier.