Teaser Mailers

Has anyone experienced a VP session where you give a lot of coin-in and lose a fair bit, yet the casino quickly sends you pathetically small mailers in relation to the action?

I waited a couple months and the offers improved markedy (5x larger freeplay bounceback vouchers) because I decided to go to other casinos for a while, instead. Most likely it was due to my not triggering the smaller offers sent to me right after I played.

My question is: Should I continue waiting for even bigger bounceback freeplay vouchers in the months ahead with the risk of their sliding back to nothing anyway if I don't go this month?

I know all casino chains operate differently with their marketing mailer algo's, but I was curious as to what other players' experiences were in this area. Thanks!

What you ought to be doing is learning how to win consistently. Then all those sacred offers you guys go gaga over won't control how, why, where and when you go to casinos any longer. And it'll keep silly threads like this one from getting started.

Imagine the concept.

Mailers and marketing lists and offers are usually "refreshed" in intervals of three months to six months. And one spike in wins or losses is not likely to impact your offers. They look at trends.

The exception MIGHT be what's been discussed here before about Caesars having a formula which looks for "new players" who will try high limit betting for a couple of bets and then leave and not return. These players might get a surprise "we want to see you again" big promo.

Here's the way that works: you are a new player, you get a new card, you go to a high limit machine (say $100 slot), you make one or two bets and you leave. That makes the computer think you are a high roller who was distracted or felt uncomfortable about playing and they will send you some big offer to get you back.

BUMPING THREAD (UPDATE):

I decided to pass on my April offers even though they were roughly 5 times the earlier offers. May mailers arrived offering double the April offers (which are 10x original offers now). Not sure if waiting for June offers without returning to the casino will increase the offers further or whether they will slowly scale back on their own.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

BUMPING THREAD (UPDATE):

I decided to pass on my April offers even though they were roughly 5 times the earlier offers. May mailers arrived offering double the April offers (which are 10x original offers now). Not sure if waiting for June offers without returning to the casino will increase the offers further or whether they will slowly scale back on their own.

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Hi Count:

That's good news for you. I agree with Alan that CET has a company policy of giving an incentive to a first time player that briefly shows some action. While your comments are interesting, they are not very helpful unless you identify the casino.

FAB

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

Hi Count:

That's good news for you. I agree with Alan that CET has a company policy of giving an incentive to a first time player that briefly shows some action. While your comments are interesting, they are not very helpful unless you identify the casino.

FAB

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FABismonte: Hey there, yeah it's not CET as it has been 2-3 years since my last visit there. Even though I won't identify the casino company in question, I wanted to share as a general principle that if you have a losing trip and the casino sends terrible mailers to you right away you may want to do absolutely nothing with the casino for a while (no hotel stays, no meals, nothing - completely off radar) and see what happens to your mailers after a few months. My trip was in January, so it took 4 months to receive 10x the original February teaser offers.

EDIT: I should add that during March, April, and May they are roughly doubling the previous month's offers each time.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

Even though I won't identify the casino company in question . . .

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Hi Count:

Suit yourself, but given the fact that "count room" is a nom de plume, I am unclear of the risk. It is not like Alan Mendelson where the casino knows who he is. Can you at least say whether the casino is part of a casino chain like MLIFE or whether it is an independent place?

FAB

Interesting. I missed this thread when it was first posted a month ago.

I can confirm that CET works like this, too. My friend, who was completely new to CET in 2014 and lost about $1500 in a (now gone) full-pay Double Double Bonus machine after about $5k worth of coin-in, had the same pattern of offers.

First some laughably small offers of like $40 freeplay and cheap (but not free) rooms at the hotel. Then, the next month, the offers increased to about $300 freeplay (and equivalent, such as gift cards) and free hotel stays. Then, the following month, the offers went as high as $500 with hotel stays and some moderate food credit. They hung there for about 6-8 more months (my friend just kept redeeming the offers and never playing) before vanishing. The offers were also frequent -- like there were about 6 per month. Had my friend lived closer to Vegas, they could have cleaned up! Still, they probably reaped about $6k from that $1500 loss, so it was a success story.

This sort of thing would never work with a player like me, who already has a card and a long history at CET.

I should clear up one thing.

Ignoring the first month's offers is not what triggers the better offers in subsequent months. Those are happening regardless. I'm not sure of the reason for the first round of terrible offers. Perhaps they are trying a test to see if you will come in for the lame offers, so future offers (maybe 5 months down the line) don't need to be as high.

But your offers are always predetermined a few months in advance, so additional play or bonus whoring will never affect what you get in the subsequent 2-3 months.

You also shouldn't hold out too long, unless you really have no need or desire to travel to the casino with the offer.

After several months (usually around 5), the offers will start to degrade because the marketing computer will figure that you're not coming back, so it starts to give up.

Think of it like a girl you might have been interested in when you were dating.

At some point, during your peak of interest, you were in frequent contact with her and trying your hardest to get her to go out with you. However, if not successful, at some point you will tone down your attempts, then get to the point where maybe you contact her every so often to see if things have changed, and then cease contact completely. That's basically how these casinos work when you don't respond to their offers for several months, especially if you had only one or two sessions of play there in the first place.

A few years ago, I played about 100K through VP at MGM, and never got anything better than free weekdays nights and discounted show Tix.

A few months ago I played some table games, for less than an hour, around 200 avg bet, and got some anytime rooms plus some Freeplay and food.

The difference between the two was a big win the first time, and a loss the second time.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Ignoring the first month's offers is not what triggers the better offers in subsequent months. Those are happening regardless. I'm not sure of the reason for the first round of terrible offers. Perhaps they are trying a test to see if you will come in for the lame offers, so future offers (maybe 5 months down the line) don't need to be as high.

But your offers are always predetermined a few months in advance, so additional play or bonus whoring will never affect what you get in the subsequent 2-3 months.

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Druff: I used to agree that there was a 2 month delay between the action one gives the casinos and their sending out mailers which reflect a certain gambling visit. More and more I am starting to understand this assumption may be wrong. At another casino I regularly receive postcards offering me freeplay for very recent visits. In fact, I have a postcard in front of me which says, "Based on your play March 26-April 9, we are sending you $115 freeplay valid April 21-22". This postcard was sent to me around April 15th meaning the delay was only 1-2 weeks. My point being that it's appearing that casino marketing mailers have a much faster response time that we may have been led to believe.

I do agree with your wondering whether the small offer sent right away acts as a Boolean trigger which keeps future offers lower if the small offer is cashed out.

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

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Originally Posted by Count Room

Even though I won't identify the casino company in question . . .

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Hi Count:

Suit yourself, but given the fact that "count room" is a nom de plume, I am unclear of the risk. It is not like Alan Mendelson where the casino knows who he is. Can you at least say whether the casino is part of a casino chain like MLIFE or whether it is an independent place?

FAB

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Sorry FABismonte, it's nothing personal but I have to decline to answer this question. I do hope my thread was at least slightly helpful to you, though.

Hi Count:

No worries. Your comment was somewhat helpful.

Cheers

Different casino companies will have different "timing" for adjusting their offers. I was told that in Vegas they adjust offers every four to six MONTHS. Well, Caesars is a big operation with tens of thousands of people on their mailing lists, and they probably aren't as sensitive as some smaller casino companies are to the whims of players.

On the other hand, I played at a small casino in the Temecula area once and within two weeks I was on their mailing list... but four weeks later I was off their mailing list because I hadn't returned.

A couple of weeks ago I played at a small casino in Henderson: three days later I got a free play offer.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Different casino companies will have different "timing" for adjusting their offers. I was told that in Vegas they adjust offers every four to six MONTHS. Well, Caesars is a big operation with tens of thousands of people on their mailing lists, and they probably aren't as sensitive as some smaller casino companies are to the whims of players.

On the other hand, I played at a small casino in the Temecula area once and within two weeks I was on their mailing list... but four weeks later I was off their mailing list because I hadn't returned.

A couple of weeks ago I played at a small casino in Henderson: three days later I got a free play offer.

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Alan, you bring up a good point here. I will say the postcards I receive come from a small casino, so you may be right about smaller companies being more nimble & speedy with their marketing departments. Makes a lot of sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

First some laughably small offers of like $40 freeplay and cheap (but not free) rooms at the hotel. Then, the next month, the offers increased to about $300 freeplay (and equivalent, such as gift cards) and free hotel stays. Then, the following month, the offers went as high as $500 with hotel stays and some moderate food credit. They hung there for about 6-8 more months (my friend just kept redeeming the offers and never playing) before vanishing. The offers were also frequent -- like there were about 6 per month. Had my friend lived closer to Vegas, they could have cleaned up! Still, they probably reaped about $6k from that $1500 loss, so it was a success story.

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This is what is called "working theo." There were affluent AP's playing this game with casinos for quite awhile. I followed it somewhat on the BJ21 forum when I was a member there. Their modus operandi was to go play a casino without staying in the hotel. They would play $5 denom and run about $100,000 in action generally in one day. Their game of choice was one that came in slighty under 99%. They were creating a loser's profile.

Their theoretical loss to run the action was about $1500. Then they would kick back and wait on the freeplay offers to come in. They would get a succession of freeplay offers in the very low four figures. They would go in and run the freeplay without giving anymore action. They would keep doing it until the freeplay offers quit coming.

They did this all around the country.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

First some laughably small offers of like $40 freeplay and cheap (but not free) rooms at the hotel. Then, the next month, the offers increased to about $300 freeplay (and equivalent, such as gift cards) and free hotel stays. Then, the following month, the offers went as high as $500 with hotel stays and some moderate food credit. They hung there for about 6-8 more months (my friend just kept redeeming the offers and never playing) before vanishing. The offers were also frequent -- like there were about 6 per month. Had my friend lived closer to Vegas, they could have cleaned up! Still, they probably reaped about $6k from that $1500 loss, so it was a success story.

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This is what is called "working theo." There were affluent AP's playing this game with casinos for quite awhile. I followed it somewhat on the BJ21 forum when I was a member there. Their modus operandi was to go play a casino without staying in the hotel. They would play $5 denom and run about $100,000 in action generally in one day. Their game of choice was one that came in slighty under 99%. They were creating a loser's profile.

Their theoretical loss to run the action was about $1500. Then they would kick back and wait on the freeplay offers to come in. They would get a succession of freeplay offers in the very low four figures. They would go in and run the freeplay without giving anymore action. They would keep doing it until the freeplay offers quit coming.

They did this all around the country.

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Mickey, thanks for the info. Don't hold us in suspense. What is likely to happen if you follow the same procedures today? Are some companies vulnerable to this versus others?

I have a question about mickey's scenario: he mentions "a succession of freeplay offers in the very low four figures."

Are those individual offers of one-thousand dollars (four figures) or offers combined that reached one-thousand dollars?

Frankly, I doubt any casino offered individual offers of $1,000 per trip/day. If these offers were daily offers that added up to $1,000 you would also have to include the cost of returning to the casino to figure the return on this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I have a question about mickey's scenario: he mentions "a succession of freeplay offers in the very low four figures."

Are those individual offers of one-thousand dollars (four figures) or offers combined that reached one-thousand dollars?

Frankly, I doubt any casino offered individual offers of $1,000 per trip/day. If these offers were daily offers that added up to $1,000 you would also have to include the cost of returning to the casino to figure the return on this scenario.

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A friend of mine was regularly getting $5,000 freeplay offers and $3,500 forum shop offers from CET Vegas a couple years before bankruptcy troubles. The $5K freeplay had to be given out in stacks of $500 vouchers at the promotions desk.

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Originally Posted by redietz

What is likely to happen if you follow the same procedures today? Are some companies vulnerable to this versus others?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Frankly, I doubt any casino offered individual offers of $1,000 per trip/day.

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I'm assuming the players had excellent reconnaissance, so they were able to attack particular marketing algorithms precisely. Presumably, some vulnerabilities continue to exist, although in general, marketing offers and comp rates for video poker have declined.

The $1,000 value doesn't seem extraordinary to me. The example is based on $100k coin-in, so the casino is only returning 1% per bounceback visit.

There are a lot of nuances and potential angles of attack. For example, sometimes it may be possible to redeem an offer without your visit being detected, as long as you don't earn any points on your card. Casino marketing will then continue generating offers, unaware that you exploited the previous ones.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

A friend of mine was regularly getting $5,000 freeplay offers and $3,500 forum shop offers from CET Vegas a couple years before bankruptcy troubles. The $5K freeplay had to be given out in stacks of $500 vouchers at the promotions desk.

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How much was he playing?

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Originally Posted by bocce ball

The $1,000 value doesn't seem extraordinary to me. The example is based on $100k coin-in, so the casino is only returning 1% per bounceback visit.

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The $1,000 of free play does seem extraordinary to me. 100K coin in back in "the good old days" when $10 coin in at video poker earned 1 tier point means that there was only 10,000 tier points earned. Well, that's not an extraordinary amount.

Is there anyone here who can say their free play offers ever approached these ratios?

Sorry, but something is not right. Either the coin in was much more, or the free play was much less.

Alan, there's nothing extraordinary about $1k offers for $100k coin in. I've gotten offers greater than $1k (and 4 of them per month) for significantly less than $100k coin in. I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by Count Room

A friend of mine was regularly getting $5,000 freeplay offers and $3,500 forum shop offers from CET Vegas a couple years before bankruptcy troubles. The $5K freeplay had to be given out in stacks of $500 vouchers at the promotions desk.

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How much was he playing?

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From what I remember he was playing $25 slots and he told me Caesar's was very generous with their freeplay and shopping freebies for a while. I specifically asked him if he played any VP and he said "No". Apparently CET clamped down on their generous freeplay because he stopped playing there after 6-12 months. He mentioned Tropicana in AC being very good, as well, but don't know if that's the case anymore. (This was 4-5 years ago)

$25 slots is a lot "heavier" than even $5 video poker. With a 2-coin machine that's $50 a pull. With a 3-coin machine that's $75 a pull. Also, the hold on slots is higher than on video poker and the points earned on slots are higher than video poker.

Now I'm just curious about the losses he had?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

$25 slots is a lot "heavier" than even $5 video poker. With a 2-coin machine that's $50 a pull. With a 3-coin machine that's $75 a pull. Also, the hold on slots is higher than on video poker and the points earned on slots are higher than video poker.

Now I'm just curious about the losses he had?

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Alan: He never told me an exact figure, but he did say that his freeplay was literally paying for all his losses for a while and then gradually lowered to where his slot losses put him in the red again. I'm pretty sure he had at least $30K in freeplay and $8K-$10K in shopping sprees during his time at CET. Anything beyond that I cannot say. Druff's post earlier in this thread talking about his friend who played DDB with his freeplay literally outweighing his losses reminded me of this buddy of mine, too!

Well... I have my doubts about casino players who say they "broke even." I have bigger doubts about those who say they were ahead playing slots of all things. But anything can happen.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Well... I have my doubts about casino players who say they "broke even." I have bigger doubts about those who say they were ahead playing slots of all things. But anything can happen.

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Here's one beatable slot.

https://youtu.be/WUDj0uB7xCk

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Well... I have my doubts about casino players who say they "broke even." I have bigger doubts about those who say they were ahead playing slots of all things. But anything can happen.

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Here's one beatable slot.

https://youtu.be/WUDj0uB7xCk

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The girl who did this video is pretty hot (at least from the one pic on her YouTube profile), but she would be maddening to have as a wife. Probably chunk off all your money on slot machines.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The girl who did this video is pretty hot (at least from the one pic on her YouTube profile), but she would be maddening to have as a wife. Probably chunk off all your money on slot machines.

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I didn't originally look at you made the video. But some of the female video gamers on Twitch are pretty damn hot!

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

The girl who did this video is pretty hot (at least from the one pic on her YouTube profile), but she would be maddening to have as a wife. Probably chunk off all your money on slot machines.

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I didn't originally look at you made the video. But some of the female video gamers on Twitch are pretty damn hot!

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Don't have much time to watch TwitchTV, but I always thought Kahlusha was really cute! (just video games, no gambling) https://www.twitch.tv/kahlusha

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

First some laughably small offers of like $40 freeplay and cheap (but not free) rooms at the hotel. Then, the next month, the offers increased to about $300 freeplay (and equivalent, such as gift cards) and free hotel stays. Then, the following month, the offers went as high as $500 with hotel stays and some moderate food credit. They hung there for about 6-8 more months (my friend just kept redeeming the offers and never playing) before vanishing. The offers were also frequent -- like there were about 6 per month. Had my friend lived closer to Vegas, they could have cleaned up! Still, they probably reaped about $6k from that $1500 loss, so it was a success story.

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This is what is called "working theo." There were affluent AP's playing this game with casinos for quite awhile. I followed it somewhat on the BJ21 forum when I was a member there. Their modus operandi was to go play a casino without staying in the hotel. They would play $5 denom and run about $100,000 in action generally in one day. Their game of choice was one that came in slighty under 99%. They were creating a loser's profile.

Their theoretical loss to run the action was about $1500. Then they would kick back and wait on the freeplay offers to come in. They would get a succession of freeplay offers in the very low four figures. They would go in and run the freeplay without giving anymore action. They would keep doing it until the freeplay offers quit coming.

They did this all around the country.

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Mickey, thanks for the info. Don't hold us in suspense. What is likely to happen if you follow the same procedures today? Are some companies vulnerable to this versus others?

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I didn't renew my subscription to BJ21 when LCB bought it so I haven't kept up with those working theo. From what I've read on this site and others there were complaints of the "amounts of freeplay offered being drastically cut back." I can only wonder if this was caused by those gaming the system.

I would advise anyone to tread cautiously in trying to pull off the same scenario today. The BJ21 crowd had the advantage of trading information with each other on the best casinos to pull it on.

My mailers are always laughable - $5FP after earning 25 points ($500 coin in). Doesn't matter if I won, lost $200 or lost $2000. Always the same $5.

Seems the offers are theo based. This casino offers full pay games paying up to 99.8%, but the theo on these machines is set at essentially zero.

Which casino in henderson?

alan Your statement about changing every 3-6 months could not be further from the truth. Where do you get your knowledge from?

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Originally Posted by TeflonRon

Which casino in henderson?

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Club Fortune