Pet Peeve: Free Odds not free, not so great either

My biggest pet peeve about the "experts' view" of the game of craps is that the "odds bet" which is also called "free odds" is not free. And it's really not such a great bet to make.

The advocates of the odds bet say it has zero house edge. It also has zero players' edge. But it's still a bet that favors the house (for right way craps players).

In a new Internet column today, gaming author John Grochowski summed it up when he wrote: "Of course, the house is still making money, because you have to make a wager with a house edge to get the opportunity to make the no-edge odds bet."

I think betting odds is worthwhile when there is a likelihood that you will win the flat bet that the odds bet is connected to.

Putting aside dice influencing, you are more likely to win the flat bet with the odds with inside numbers such as 6,8 and even 5, 9.

Odds on the 4 and 10 are longshots.

Too many times I hear players and dealers say "the odds are the best bet on the table." But that just isn't true. Odds on the 4 and 10 have a 1 in 3 chance of winning even though there is no fee on the odds and they are paid at "true odds." The best bets on the table are the ones more likely to win: passline on the comeout, don't pass after the comeout, place six and place 8.

"Odds" for the most part only increase the amount money you are more likely to lose.

Alan, If you had to make either one of these choices, would you rather have $5 pass bet with $500 on odds or just $505 on the pass line?

Let me clarify that this is after a point is established.

Regardless of what you think though, the odds bet IS the best SINGLE bet on the table.

The odds bets have a 0% house edge. Of course another wager (line or come/DC) have to be made to make the odds bet. It's still the best bet on the table, at least house edge wise. Of course, it's not always the best bet, if there's some promotion that could make another bet better. I think Gold Coast or some Boyd property had a promotion where 12 and 2 paid 39:1 instead of 30:1.

Odds bets aren't the most likely to win, at least from the right side. The probability of a bet winning or losing, without respect to the payout, doesn't define if it's a good or bad bet. Alan, I take it you don't play the don't's, lay the 4 or 10, etc. but those are much more likely to win than the pass line. Also, you bet the ATS -- the most unlikely wager to win on the table (aside from maybe a fire bet or something like that).

Not the same game, but along the same line...how about the "Double Up" bet in VP?

Is there a house edge or is that the best bet in the house?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coach belly

Not the same game, but along the same line...how about the "Double Up" bet in VP?

Is there a house edge or is that the best bet in the house?

---

Yes to the first, no to the second.

Alan is right though in saying that the "free" in free odds is misleading. It's like a store offering a free item if you buy something else with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jbjb

Yes to the first, no to the second.

---

I haven't seen the math for that. Can you provide any backup?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coach belly

I haven't seen the math for that. Can you provide any backup?

---

If you and I draw cards, high card wins, it's an even game. Neither one of us has an edge. That's basically all the double up bet is. It only adds variance. Personally, I don't use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jbjb

If you and I draw cards, high card wins, it's an even game. Neither one of us has an edge. That's basically all the double up bet is. It only adds variance. Personally, I don't use it.

---

OK...it seemed like when you wrote "yes to the first" you were answering my question "is there a house edge"...that yes there is a house edge with the Double Up bet.

Now that you've established that there is no house edge, my question is this...if you are willing to play any -EV VP hand, then shouldn't you always play the Double Up?

I'm not talking about you personally, I understand that you are not willing to ever play -EV VP.

But for the typical VP player who always encounters -EV games, shouldn't they always play the Double Up?

I've seen it recommended on the -EV games but not on the +EV ones. I'd say do whatever makes you comfortable.

The difference between VP and the double up option and the pass w/odds in craps is with VP, you've already won before making the decision to do the double up or not. With the craps bets, you haven't.

As I said earlier, both just add variance so not my cup of tea.

Consider this for the double up feature in video poker (regardless if it's a +EV or -EV game):

If you just played a hand and one hit a break even hand (jacks or better) the double up feature gives you a 50/50 chance to double your money and the house edge is 0 percent.

But if you play thru that break-even hand you have the full array of possibilities ranging from a loss to hitting a royal.

So, do you want to turn $5 into $10 (if playing $1 video poker) with the double up? Or do you want to turn $5 into two pair, or three of a kind, or a straight, flush, full house, quads, straight flush or royal?

There is a big difference between a bet with no house edge and what one may deem to be a good bet. It depends on one's perspective on gambling. A grinder is not going to bet 100x odds in craps even though it is the "best bet" in terms of house edge. On the other hand, a "gambler", and that includes me, always tried to take the most odds within my progression because I was not there to grind. I would win or lose, but my stomach could take the big swings of taking high odds.

Now it may also seem inconsistent, but on the very rare occasions that I would bet the "don't" in craps, I disliked laying the odds. If I had $200 on the don't pass (which becomes favorable after the point is established), I didn't want to lay the odds bet at less than even money, particularly at 1-2 on the 4 and 10. I felt like I had an even money bet and was diluting that by laying the odds. My thinking is not really correct, but it is just not in my comfort zone.

Comparing that to the double up in VP, I wouldn't take the double up at even money because it is a single draw. In craps, it is not a one roll bet. So to me, a coin flip, even if you gave me 52-48 on heads, is not a bet I would make if it is a one shot deal. If we can flip 5,000 times, I'll do it.

The double-up bet in VP is stupid, and it has nothing to do with math. You go from playing a VP strategy to playing a completely different card game--and only on winning hands. If they allowed the opportunity to get your money back on losing hands, that would have value. But as it stands, the only players who use the double-up option in VP are problem gamblers who just can't wait for that next shot of intermittent satisfaction.

Years ago, I hit the double up feature by accident and called for a tech. He told me it now had to be played and couldn't be changed. I waved goodbye to $200. I absolutely abhor the feature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slingshot

Years ago, I hit the double up feature by accident and called for a tech. He told me it now had to be played and couldn't be changed. I waved goodbye to $200. I absolutely abhor the feature.

---

I have always been curious about whether one could simply refuse to pick a card and contact a tech to claim the double up feature was started by mistake? Couldn't one assert that the buttons were sticky or caused an error?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FABismonte

I have always been curious about whether one could simply refused to pick a card and contact a tech to claim the double up feature was started by mistake? Couldn't one assert that the buttons were sticky or caused an error?

---

It's possible but I wouldn't attempt it to many times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slingshot

Years ago, I hit the double up feature by accident and called for a tech. He told me it now had to be played and couldn't be changed. I waved goodbye to $200. I absolutely abhor the feature.

---

That had to suck. These machines should notify you before playing if the feature is active or not. Fast players may not realize it after their first winning hand thinking they're moving into the next by hitting deal only to find out they answered "yes" to the feature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jbjb

That had to suck. These machines should notify you before playing if the feature is active or not. Fast players may not realize it after their first winning hand thinking they're moving into the next by hitting deal only to find out they answered "yes" to the feature.

---

It did. I didn't know,as a newbie, there was such a feature and hit the wrong button again thinking the machine was bonkers. I can' t remember if I hit yes or no- but it asks if you're sure you want the feature. It was my fault and whenever I hit a session ending win, I always look to make sure I hit the cash out button.

The double-up option is a simple push of the yes or no buttons, typically in the first and fifth card positions. And it allows you to turn the option off for the length of your session. Lots of players have hit the yes button by mistake, including me on a $2 royal and a $2000 hit on $5 ddbp, but you're in the hands of whoever's in charge of the casino regarding whether your "mistake" can be nullified or not. In my $2 royal case, the option was especially tricky in that it only appeared on signers. The casino mgr. refused to let me bypass it after 15 minutes of protesting--probably because a 9 was showing. I won the hand, left, then was banned from playing vp there. (Harrahs on the Strip). Some of the selective readers and reckless here might remember the article.

At Rampart I ran into the same situation on a $2000 or $4000 hit (I can't remember). I lost that one all around.

At a casino in Aruba on a $1 job machine that I played to pass some time, I doubled up a $5 winner 9 times straight. On the 9th go I lost. I was determined to keep going until I lost just to see how far I could take it. I was an AP at the time, aka, an addict.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FABismonte

I have always been curious about whether one could simply refuse to pick a card and contact a tech to claim the double up feature was started by mistake? Couldn't one assert that the buttons were sticky or caused an error?

---

I wrote about an incident on the forum. A Japanese man was playing $5 double double bonus and got quad aces. The double up question popped up on the screen. It appeared as:

Double Up?

He pushed it not knowing what it was and thought by pushing it he would find out. He called a floor person. A manager came over. Since he didn't understand they gave him the free play: if he won he would get double, if he lost he would still be paid for the quad aces.

I wouldn't try that yourself if they know you know what it means.

I'd like to find that post. Any help????

Regarding the Double Up feature...

The fact that this no house edge 50/50 bet is only offered after a winning hand seems noteworthy.

I understand that the Double Up effectively turns VP into card-cutting, so yes it becomes a different game.

Does the 50/50 nature of the Double Up game mean that it is a 100% play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I was an AP at the time, aka, an addict.

---

Once an addict always an addict. Gamblers anonymous doesn't buy statements like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Once an addict always an addict. Gamblers anonymous doesn't buy statements like this.

---

Until you get fed up. I went my first time in two weeks- mainly to play my free play and enjoy my free buffet--won $15 and left . My dog enjoyed the rib bones( left a little meat on them). Doesn't mean much to you guys- but had to know I could do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Once an addict always an addict. Gamblers anonymous doesn't buy statements like this.

---

I don't think Rob was saying HE was an addict. I think he was saying APs are addicts.

Not that I agree with it... I just wanted to point out the difference and meaning of Rob's post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I don't think Rob was saying HE was an addict. I think he was saying APs are addicts.

Not that I agree with it... I just wanted to point out the difference and meaning of Rob's post.

---

He has called you an addict. According to Rob, anyone who gambles is an addict. Therefore, Rob is an addict.

Rob calls me an addict because he suffers from FITMPFPD which in the medical journals is called "foot in the mouth public forum personality disorder."