Tipping on hand pays at high limit VP

My normal game is $5 single-line VP, which makes tipping pretty straightforward - I do $10 on the straight flush, and $100 on the royal. Both of these combined probably happen 2-3 times a year.

But the other day I was playing .50 100-play, and after a few of hours of running hot, I had hit 10 handpays. I tipped on some, didn't tip on others (asked to be paid with a slot ticket), and in the end had tipped $100 total, which kind of seemed like a lot, in retrospect. If I expect to play this game regularly, that level of tipping would seriously cut into my EV.

I'm having trouble finding info on this anywhere else; can some of you VP whales chime in on what's expected/appropriate?

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.


Other than that, not really sure. Other than just tipping at the end of the session......or perhaps don't tip for small jackpots but tip larger for bigger JP's.

Wasn't aware of that; thanks for the info. This was actually at Cosmo, but they didn't offer that option; I guess you have to ask.

Why do you people like to believe you have to tip on ANY handpay or jackpot? It's amazing how drawn in you get to what other people say they do so you feel you have to do it too. Think for yourselves for God's sake. You play in a hi-limit room and you're not a complete master of everything you're doing or about to do in there??

Now we've got somebody starting a thread looking for a tipping "standard" while at the same time worrying to death about meaningless "EV" and then some amateur chiming in about hi-limit room policies he's heard about but, as deduced from further conversation he did not expect, we not surprisingly find he's never actually experienced. Then the OP actually "takes in" what some proven phony, anonymous poster has to say about it! Just astounding....

Tipping on handpays is for the weak. That's right--you people are WUSSIES if you tip someone who's not unlike any clerk in any store who's simply doing their job by taking care of their customers. And guess what--you whimpering pussies only tip handpays because you're so lacking in self-confidence that you're EASILY INTIMIDATED into forking over YOU'RE money to complete strangers because you've "heard" it was the right thing to do....of course, without explanation. And to then complain about how much EV you're giving up because of these stupid tips? Please, grow a pair.

I wish Rob would stick to telling people to not tip. He starts to make a point, then he throws in a non-rational, whackjob phrase like "meaningless 'EV'."

The problem, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that Rob never delineates what minimum EV is necessary for his various systems and mousetraps to win. He just makes a blanket statement about EV being meaningless, which is clearly nonsensical.

After 5000 posts, one would think Rob would occasionally say something like, "Well, at 97.4, my hokum doesn't really work, but it does at 97.8 EV." But Rob's too savvy to get pinned down like that. He just goes with the "meaningless EV" comments, which undermine whatever credibility he might have on other topics.

He has some valid points about tipping. The people one doesn't tip aren't your bodyguards. Nothing bad will happen to you if you don't tip. It's not required. The whole social pressure to tip is not a law of nature. If you skip tipping, the world will not end.

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip and to play the games sub-optimally while betting higher while losing. He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Why do you people like to believe you have to tip on ANY handpay or jackpot?

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Please, grow a pair.

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Rob is excellent on this subject.

I think there are probably more non-tippers than we realize, so if I stiff the attendants, they'll only hate me for a few minutes until the next customer disappoints them.

But I like the idea of minimizing cash received from attendants at your machine. It's better to accept payment in the form of a ticket or credits because psychologically, you don't look so much like a big winner.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I wish Rob would stick to telling people to not tip. He starts to make a point, then he throws in a non-rational, whackjob phrase like "meaningless 'EV'."

The problem, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that Rob never delineates what minimum EV is necessary for his various systems and mousetraps to win. He just makes a blanket statement about EV being meaningless, which is clearly nonsensical.

After 5000 posts, one would think Rob would occasionally say something like, "Well, at 97.4, my hokum doesn't really work, but it does at 97.8 EV." But Rob's too savvy to get pinned down like that. He just goes with the "meaningless EV" comments, which undermine whatever credibility he might have on other topics.

He has some valid points about tipping. The people one doesn't tip aren't your bodyguards. Nothing bad will happen to you if you don't tip. It's not required. The whole social pressure to tip is not a law of nature. If you skip tipping, the world will not end.

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You're again making up what I say or believe in, just to criticize. The point about EV being meaningless is because a percent or two going in has little to no bearing on any individual session, and if you're educated enuf on how to perfect the art of just getting up and leaving with a profit, then all that EV theory does is get in the way.

I've written multiple articles over the years about how hypocritical it is, esp. for so-called "AP's", to claim on the one hand to squeeze every bit of edge out of their VP play--only to forfeit some of it by being weak enuf to give it away to floor people. Makes no sense at all, and I'm sure you agree. And just about everyone would....except for the fact that they can't help themselves but tip, whether or not they realize they're only doing such a foolish thing at the time because they know how intimidated they get from angry stares, or they don't want to believe they're being manipulated (via the vision of all that cash) by people who are labeling them as SUCKERS behind their backs as shifts start.

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Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

Wasn't aware of that; thanks for the info. This was actually at Cosmo, but they didn't offer that option; I guess you have to ask.

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It's called Fast Pay. You have to sign up for it with a slot attendant. It might only be available in the high limit room, but not certain.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

You're again making up what I say or believe in, just to criticize. The point about EV being meaningless is because a percent or two going in has little to no bearing on any individual session, and if you're educated enuf on how to perfect the art of just getting up and leaving with a profit, then all that EV theory does is get in the way.

I've written multiple articles over the years about how hypocritical it is, esp. for so-called "AP's", to claim on the one hand to squeeze every bit of edge out of their VP play--only to forfeit some of it by being weak enuf to give it away to floor people. Makes no sense at all, and I'm sure you agree. And just about everyone would....except for the fact that they can't help themselves but tip, whether or not they realize they're only doing such a foolish thing at the time because they know how intimidated they get from angry stares, or they don't want to believe they're being manipulated (via the vision of all that cash) by people who are labeling them as SUCKERS behind their backs as shifts start.

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1) For the most part, I agree with your tipping attitudes.
2) EV theory does not "get in the way." That's nonsense. It certainly doesn't get in the way for casinos.
3) It does not really make sense to sweat a tenth of a percent or two in EV and then tip, unless you are (A)on a tremendously positive machine and floor people will fast track you to payouts and W2Gs or (B) you rely on floor personnel for inside info on machines and upcoming promotions. In those cases, tipping makes sense, although it's more like bribing than tipping. In his early days, Dancer did a lot of that.

I agree that EV theory does not ever "get in the way" for the casinos. They live, eat & breathe the long term. But when it comes to a player who walks in and plays a VP machine or any other game really, that all-sacred EV truly has no distinct bearing on whether the player wins or loses the session--esp. if said player is skilled and disciplined enough to know how to leave with some type of profit.

Remember, most sessions of VP have at least one profit point within them, regardless of the EV going in. In my playing life, if I had expected to lose every time I faced off against a -EV game, I'd have never started. As such, because of my play strategy, discipline, and disregard for EV, I've won about 85% of my sessions since dropping the ap label.

You could have 99% win rate and still lose money. Conversely, you could have a 1% win rate and be profitable.

Exactly. Having an 85% "session win rate" is the video poker equivalent of claiming to win 60% of your games while betting major league baseball moneylines. It doesn't mean anything. It's irrelevant. What matters is net profit, not how many games -- or sessions -- one wins.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip...He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

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What are you saying here...that tipping affects whether or not you win or lose?

I've read some sound reasons why not to tip on handpays, but I haven't read why you should tip on handpays.

Is there any sensible reason why you should tip on handpays?

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Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

My normal game is $5 single-line VP...But the other day I was playing .50 100-play

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You normally play $25 per hand VP, but the other day you played $250 per hand?

Is my math correct?

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Originally Posted by coach belly

What are you saying here...that tipping affects whether or not you win or lose?

I've read some sound reasons why not to tip on handpays, but I haven't read why you should tip on handpays.

Is there any sensible reason why you should tip on handpays?

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I didn't say you should or shouldn't. I wouldn't chastise you either way.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

You normally play $25 per hand VP, but the other day you played $250 per hand?

Is my math correct?

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Maybe he's the guy who hit the $400,000 AWAK at Cosmo on the $1 100 play.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

I didn't say you should or shouldn't.

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You didn't say one way or the other, but you wrote this...

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip...He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

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...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose.

Can you explain what you mean?

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Originally Posted by coach belly

...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose. Can you explain what you mean?

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You parsed jbjb's statement leaving out this part right here "and to play the game sub-optimally while betting more while losing."

Jean Scott tips $20 on a $4000 royal. Bob Dancer tips $20 on a $20,000 royal. He only tips $5 on quad handpays. He has the tip expectation calculated into his EV on the play.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

You parsed jbjb's statement leaving out this part right here "and to play the game sub-optimally while betting more while losing."

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So what?...the thread is about tipping, so that's what I'm asking about...the tipping part.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

You didn't say one way or the other, but you wrote this...



...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose.

Can you explain what you mean?

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The more cash you have to play sub-optimally like he does, the more you'll lose. By tipping, you'll have less of this cash for the casino to get.

Whether you tip casino personnel or not is up to you.

For the record, I'm not a fan of tipping either. But I don't see a difference between a waitress carrying your food to you and a slot attendant carrying your cash to you.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

The more cash you have to play sub-optimally like he does, the more you'll lose. By tipping, you'll have less of this cash for the casino to get.

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I think got it...you think Rob doesn't want us to tip, because he would rather have us lose the money in the machines than give it away as a tip.

Is that what you mean?...and is that what you really believe?

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Originally Posted by jbjb

For the record, I'm not a fan of tipping either. But I don't see a difference between a waitress carrying your food to you and a slot attendant carrying your cash to you.

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Here's the difference: as a restaurant customer, you're REQUESTING a certain service be performed by the employee. As a casino customer who hits a handpay, you're not requesting a service of any kind, but it is in fact only a government requirement that your play be held up in order that the employees fulfill their duty to give you the required paperwork and the money you won from gambling.

In this situation, the player never asks for any service of any kind, but it is a govt and casino requirement that the service be provided--much like if you're at home cooking dinner and your house suddenly catches fire. The firemen show up out of dutiful requirement, and they are never tipped.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Jean Scott tips $20 on a $4000 royal. Bob Dancer tips $20 on a $20,000 royal. He only tips $5 on quad handpays. He has the tip expectation calculated into his EV on the play.

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There you go again. You have no idea how much and even if any of those people tip, and when.

I was talking to Jean Scott while she and "Brad" we're playing at the Hard Rock. Brad hit four Aces with the kicker on a $1 machine while I yakked with Jean. He tipped $60 after asking "the Queen" how much he should tip. This should explain how the rest of your story similarly is the same BS as most of your stuff.

Is it really any wonder why, out of over 11,000 members on vpfree, that you get one or two replies to your stupid made-up tales....and just about everyone laughs at you whenever you post in the middle of one of your many binge-drinking alcoholic posts? :)

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

There you go again. You have no idea how much and even if any of those people tip, and when.

I was talking to Jean Scott while she and "Brad" we're playing at the Hard Rock. Brad hit four Aces with the kicker on a $1 machine while I yakked with Jean. He tipped $60 after asking "the Queen" how much he should tip. This should explain how the rest of your story similarly is the same BS as most of your stuff.

Is it really any wonder why, out of over 11,000 members on vpfree, that you get one or two replies to your stupid made-up tales....and just about everyone laughs at you whenever you post in the middle of one of your many binge-drinking alcoholic posts? :)

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There you go again. On speaking terms with Jean Scott are you? After the way you have repeatedly trashed her she's your howdy doody friend? Wise up and get real, dingbat.

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Originally Posted by RS__

2) Rob looks down on anyone in any kind of service industry who rely on tips to make a living.

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A couple of points; and I'm not here to defend Rob (nor does he need me to).

1) In regards to "looks down on anyone in any kind of service industry", I don't think I have ever read Rob say he doesn't tip wait or bar staff for service.

2) Do slot attendants "rely on tips to make a living"?

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Originally Posted by RS__

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.


Other than that, not really sure. Other than just tipping at the end of the session......or perhaps don't tip for small jackpots but tip larger for bigger JP's.

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I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

I personally hate handpays for various reasons. I hate stopping for them. I hate the tax forms. I hate having to re-feed money into the machine if I run poorly after hitting the jackpot. I hate how it brings attention to me so the beggars hit me up for money. I hate the expectation to tip. I would love it if I could just eliminate hand pays completely and do it all at the end.

The irritating thing with tipping handpays is figuring out the amount to tip. I absolutely despite the situation where I tip and the slot attendant walks away angrily like I just insulted them. I assume this happens at places where people routinely over-tip. So that just makes me want to not tip at all, because if I'm going to get the insulted storm-off, I might as well get that for free and not pay for it!

Still, regardless of what these slot attendants think is customary, I never give more than $10, and sometimes I give $5. The biggest handpay I've gotten was $4000, and I gave $10. The one thing I dread about one day hitting a $20,000 handpay (royal at $5 VP) is the expectation they probably have that I'll tip $100, which there's no way I will do.

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. I do it, but I hate doing it. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

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Has it been confirmed that the government requires the handpay?...or is the W2G only what's required?

If the handpay is required, then how can the practices described below legally exist?

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Originally Posted by RS__

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I have to agree here.

When Rob trolls me, or trolls others, at least it's clear that we are strangers to him, and there's no expectation of kindness.

But I see him say some absolutely nasty and inappropriate stuff to Alan, which really surprises me.

I actually believe that Rob is probably a nice guy in person, but this online side of him can get really ugly, and his treatment of Alan is the most baffling to me.

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You're not on the same page here. There's some things I get after Alan for and it's for real, because I believe he's able to get it. He and anyone else are always free to disagree--he almost always does--(and when it comes to pointing out ANYONE'S weaknesses in gambling, who doesn't?) but I occasionally have to bring out the big guns in order to get the reactions I'm looking for from the idiots here. And I keep doing it because they're like the gifts that keep on giving.

Much of what you see as "inappropriate" is very appropriate to me. I'm no shy person, I tell it as I believe it to be, and I didn't get to the level I got to in my career by cowering to political correctness or worrying about what other people think or might say unless it's a lie.

Tell me this Dan: would you rather be friends with someone who puts on a nice-guy persona online, but is always nasty when you see him?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. I do it, but I hate doing it. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

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If you don't like doing it, can you explain WHY you tip handpays, esp. since you give so little that you'll almost certainly be excoriated when they get far enough away from you and their bosses anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

I personally hate handpays for various reasons. I hate stopping for them. I hate the tax forms. I hate having to re-feed money into the machine if I run poorly after hitting the jackpot. I hate how it brings attention to me so the beggars hit me up for money. I hate the expectation to tip. I would love it if I could just eliminate hand pays completely and do it all at the end.

The irritating thing with tipping handpays is figuring out the amount to tip. I absolutely despite the situation where I tip and the slot attendant walks away angrily like I just insulted them. I assume this happens at places where people routinely over-tip. So that just makes me want to not tip at all, because if I'm going to get the insulted storm-off, I might as well get that for free and not pay for it!

Still, regardless of what these slot attendants think is customary, I never give more than $10, and sometimes I give $5. The biggest handpay I've gotten was $4000, and I gave $10. The one thing I dread about one day hitting a $20,000 handpay (royal at $5 VP) is the expectation they probably have that I'll tip $100, which there's no way I will do.

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I don't think Caesars had it. If they did, it'd be a shock to me. I've played in their HLR a good amount and never any mention of it. I once played next to a woman who was playing $25 10 play ($1,250/spin) and they were just doing key-to-credit for her. I'd expect if they had it, she would have had it. But I haven't played Caesars since probably middle of last year, so if they have it now, that's news to me. I probably won't be playing at Caesars until next year, maybe, as I'm already 7* for the rest of this year and a few months into next year.

At places that do have it, at least in the high limit room, the slot attendant would likely tell you about it when hitting a jackpot. But you can always ask if they have the system in place. You can also ask them to do key to credit, although I've only ever had a casino do it in the high limit room and not on the main floor....and generally they'll only do it if you're playing a machine that gets frequent handpays (like $5 denom DDB or higher).

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Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

My normal game is $5 single-line VP, which makes tipping pretty straightforward - I do $10 on the straight flush, and $100 on the royal. Both of these combined probably happen 2-3 times a year.

But the other day I was playing .50 100-play, and after a few of hours of running hot, I had hit 10 handpays. I tipped on some, didn't tip on others (asked to be paid with a slot ticket), and in the end had tipped $100 total, which kind of seemed like a lot, in retrospect. If I expect to play this game regularly, that level of tipping would seriously cut into my EV.

I'm having trouble finding info on this anywhere else; can some of you VP whales chime in on what's expected/appropriate?

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To get this thread back on track, I'm not a VP whale and I don't play in the high limit rooms but why do you think tipping is required on a hand pay? I've never tipped on a hand pay, I didn't even know it was a "thing" until I saw it on the gambling sites. Maybe they were pissed, but I never paid that much attention. I get whatever I get from them, say thank you and go back to my game. Servers on the floor yes, restaurants yes, valet yes, hand pays - no. I don't understand why you would want to tip. What do you get out of it? No tip to a beverage server and I may not see her again, but they are not going to slow down a hand pay, they want you back gambling as soon as possible. I'm not cheap, I tip well otherwise, just not sure why we started tipping people for doing the normal parts of their job?

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Originally Posted by james40

No tip to a beverage server and I may not see her again, but they are not going to slow down a hand pay, they want you back gambling as soon as possible.

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Why would a slot attendant (who makes no money off you) necessarily want you back gambling as soon as possible?

I don't know how much you play or in what kind of circumstance, but I've played in a promotion where there were other APs who were tipping nothing or very little (like $1-2 per JP). Everyone was hitting JP's very frequently, like 10 an hour. It got to the point where the slot attendants essentially stopped paying out the other APs unless there was some major downtime (of which there was very little). They'd process all of mine at once (2-3), come back to pay me and I'd have 2-3 more already going.

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

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Originally Posted by RS__

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

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Here's why I see it as different.

When you go to a restaurant, you are specifically going out to a place where people serve you your food. You could stay home and serve yourself.

When you park your car valet, again, someone is providing an optional service to you. (Yes, I realize some places are valet-only, but they are still providing the service.)

When the bellman carries your bags for you, again, this is something you could have done yourself.

I wish tipping didn't exist and these businesses just paid these employees a fair salary, but that's not the way US society works, and I've accepted that.

However, with gambling it's a bit different. The blackjack dealer isn't serving you. They're just doing a job which you are not allowed to do yourself. Furthermore, unless you're an AP, you're already playing with a mathematical disadvantage.

Still, tipping became commonplace when gamblers were "sharing their good luck" with the dealer, as if the dealer somehow influenced the cards dealt. Therefore, while I disagree with the concept of tipping dealers, I still do it (though within reason).

However, hand pays are a level beyond that. Most players do not want hand pays. They do not want tax forms every time they hit a hand or jackpot over $1200. They just want to keep gambling, and cash out when they're done. The hand pay is a nuisance, and it only exists because the government requires the W2-G forms to be generated. Therefore, tipping is especially ridiculous here. You are tipping someone for a "service" you don't even want, but is being forced upon you!

You might say, "Yeah, but slot attendants are working a service job, and you're expecting to tip for service."

But that's not even totally true. When your machine breaks down, freezes, gets jammed, etc, you call a slot attendant. They often put more work into fixing it than they do in giving you a handpay. Do you tip them? Probably not.

So why tip a handpay? Just because they are forcing you to take a cash payment on a big hit?

I also generally hate the concept of "sharing the wealth with the employees" when you might be losing overall. So when you're destroying the house and winning all kinds of money, I can see how the gambler can feel guilted into tipping. But if you hit a $1200 hand and are currently down $6k, it's obnoxious to be expected to share a portion of your "win" with employees. Similarly, if I'm at the blackjack table, and if I lose 9 out of 10 $300 hands, I'm not going to tip the dealer just because I win a $900 hand right after. I'm still down $1500 in the past 11 hands!

As this thread has become cluttered with BS, I have moved a lot of posts (including one of my own) to a new thread: http://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sho...cusses-tipping

Please continue the fighting over there, if you wish.

A lot of professional blackjack players don't tip. I suspect it's because they are working to thin of an edge to tip the money off.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Why would a slot attendant (who makes no money off you) necessarily want you back gambling as soon as possible?

I don't know how much you play or in what kind of circumstance, but I've played in a promotion where there were other APs who were tipping nothing or very little (like $1-2 per JP). Everyone was hitting JP's very frequently, like 10 an hour. It got to the point where the slot attendants essentially stopped paying out the other APs unless there was some major downtime (of which there was very little). They'd process all of mine at once (2-3), come back to pay me and I'd have 2-3 more already going.

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

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It's the casino that wants me back gambling as soon as possible. I'm expected to lose money in the long run and the faster I get back to pushing that button, the faster I'm going to lose it back. I'm not an AP and would probably use the hand pay as a natural break in my play anyway, so they can take their time.

I tip in restaurants mainly because I worked part time in a restaurant in college and I have a soft spot for what they do. I tip the valet because any time I see a guy sprinting across the pavement in the Vegas heat to pick up my car, I feel he deserves a couple of bucks. The cocktail waitress because it can be a long dry spell if you don't tip.

Where do you draw the line in tipping? The front desk clerk who checks you in? The person that takes away your drink and empties your ashtray? Slot tech? Cashier cage? Guy that cleans the bathroom?

I'm not in a casino to impress anyone, make friends with anyone, or to share my good fortune with anyone (unless they are willing to share my losses). The casino has one goal, to remove as much money from my wallet as possible. I want to minimize that leakage as much as possible, and I haven't found a reason to tip any of the floor people that want to come out and congratulate me on my hand pay. They sure don't come around when I'm losing.

To go back to the original question, if you think you are tipping too much, then you are tipping too much.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

A lot of professional blackjack players don't tip. I suspect it's because they are working to thin of an edge to tip the money off.

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There's that, and the dealers often get too used to large tips on large wins, so they get nasty with you (or are just quietly rude) if you don't tip them "enough".

I used to tip the dealer $5 every so often. This wasn't for any +EV purpose. It's a myth that dealers increase penetration when you tip them. It's also a myth that they report you for card counting if you don't tip. But I felt that these dealers depended upon tips for a living, so I didn't want to stiff them.

However, I would have a $300 hand which splits and then doubles, and it would all win for $900. So I'd throw the dealer $5, and they would look at me like I'm the biggest asshole in the world.

I noticed that the recreational players were tipping $25 minimum in these spots, and I realized that my tips were being taken more as an insult than something nice.

So I just stopped tipping altogether at BJ.

Then I read that the dealers at the high end properties where I mostly played were making $90-$100k per year anyway, and I felt a lot less bad about stopping tipping anyway.

The best way for a card counter to tip, is to make small bets the dealer in a high plus count. Don't outright give them money.

"Tip creep" has hit the race and sports books, also. I tend to agree with Rob Singer on this, and I am just not going to tip, no matter the payout. Thirty years ago, sports ticket writers were rarely tipped. Now the tourist-weekend-warriors in Las Vegas tend to tip ticket writers fairly frequently. There is no way I am turning an 11-10 scenario into something more like 6-5. And on the occasions one is able to negotiate -105, it makes no sense to tip and partially negate the work you did to get the -105.

To put this in the overall service context, I do not need a human ticket writer. He or she is extraneous to the wagering, which can often be done at a kiosk or with an app.

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Originally Posted by james40

It's the casino that wants me back gambling as soon as possible. I'm expected to lose money in the long run and the faster I get back to pushing that button, the faster I'm going to lose it back. I'm not an AP and would probably use the hand pay as a natural break in my play anyway, so they can take their time.

I tip in restaurants mainly because I worked part time in a restaurant in college and I have a soft spot for what they do. I tip the valet because any time I see a guy sprinting across the pavement in the Vegas heat to pick up my car, I feel he deserves a couple of bucks. The cocktail waitress because it can be a long dry spell if you don't tip.

Where do you draw the line in tipping? The front desk clerk who checks you in? The person that takes away your drink and empties your ashtray? Slot tech? Cashier cage? Guy that cleans the bathroom?

I'm not in a casino to impress anyone, make friends with anyone, or to share my good fortune with anyone (unless they are willing to share my losses). The casino has one goal, to remove as much money from my wallet as possible. I want to minimize that leakage as much as possible, and I haven't found a reason to tip any of the floor people that want to come out and congratulate me on my hand pay. They sure don't come around when I'm losing.

To go back to the original question, if you think you are tipping too much, then you are tipping too much.

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Fair enough. But the "I don't tip people who are just doing their job" argument doesn't stand.

(I posted this exact same text on the Rob Singer tipping thread. Maybe it's more appropriate here?)

Re: Tipping on W2G wins

The point is well taken on not tipping W2G payouts, but my biggest fear is giving out my Social Security number to an attendant who might think I am an asshole for not tipping and s/he happens to know all sorts of nefarious things that can be done with a SSN.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Fair enough. But the "I don't tip people who are just doing their job" argument doesn't stand.

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Do you tip the DMV clerk? How about the clerk that rings you up at a department store? Or your garbage person, do you run out and give them a tip? Why does the suit and one clerk that walk out for a hand pay qualify for a cut of your winnings?

There has to be a reasonable cutoff point, everyone in Vegas has their hand out now, and I think you have to be somewhat selective on who you share your money with. After all, it is your money, you have zero responsibility to any of the casino employees and finally, the goal is to beat the casino. Don't tip the blackjack dealer and I guarantee the same cards are going to come up on the next deal.

This bartender and I just couldn't get along. I didn't care much for him and he didn't care much for me. He finally told me to finish my drink and leave. A swamper was emptying a garbage can not to far away. "No problem" I said "But I always tip for good service." The bartender looked at me. I pulled out a $100 bill and handed it to the swamper. "Great job, my man" I said to the swamper then headed for the door. The reaction it got from the bartender, who called me all kinds of sons-of-bitches as I was making my exit, was worth the money.

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Originally Posted by Count Room

(I posted this exact same text on the Rob Singer tipping thread. Maybe it's more appropriate here?)

Re: Tipping on W2G wins

The point is well taken on not tipping W2G payouts, but my biggest fear is giving out my Social Security number to an attendant who might think I am an asshole for not tipping and s/he happens to know all sorts of nefarious things that can be done with a SSN.

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I wouldn't worry about it too much. They run into lots of non-tippers every day (including people who don't realize they are expected to tip), so this is unlikely to happen to you.

Almost all SSN fraud is done by career scammers. There is very little SSN fraud committed for vindictive purposes.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

The best way for a card counter to tip, is to make small bets the dealer in a high plus count. Don't outright give them money.

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The dealer doesn't determine the penetration in most cases nowadays. In fact, they haven't in most casinos for at least 15 years.

When I did find casinos where the dealers choose penetration, I noticed that tipping almost never had any effect on it -- either positive or negative. And of course, tipping too much to get better penetration is -EV anyway.

At Casino Royale circa 2004, I did run into a dealer who knew I was counting and was telling me "one more hand" when the count was good and the remaining cards were few. Back then, this was one of the few casinos where dealers DID determine penetration, and they didn't even use a red/yellow card to mark it! They would just shuffle when they felt the time was right. So this guy would deal down really deep when the count was high (which he obviously knew because I raised my bets). Well, this was very valuable, so this was one of the few dealers I tipped well. However, I should note that I started tipping him well AFTER he was doing this for me -- basically a message to him of, "I like what you're doing! Continue!"

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Originally Posted by james40

Do you tip the DMV clerk? How about the clerk that rings you up at a department store? Or your garbage person, do you run out and give them a tip? Why does the suit and one clerk that walk out for a hand pay qualify for a cut of your winnings?

There has to be a reasonable cutoff point, everyone in Vegas has their hand out now, and I think you have to be somewhat selective on who you share your money with. After all, it is your money, you have zero responsibility to any of the casino employees and finally, the goal is to beat the casino. Don't tip the blackjack dealer and I guarantee the same cards are going to come up on the next deal.

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I agree. I'm just saying don't use the "Why would I tip someone for just doing their job?" argument if you do tip waiters, cocktail waitresses, valet, etc. [Now that I think of it, not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned that, I think it may have been someone else.]

One thing you have to remember is that when you tip, it is likely that tip is going to be divided up a hundred way or even 400 ways if you are at a mega resort like Caesars Palace.

Only in very small casinos is there a likelihood that the tip will stay with the dealers at the game or with a particular dealer.

When I found out that the tipping pool for slot/video-poker floor people was very small (about 20), I lowered the amount I tipped on W2Gs. That's because the tips at the table games are divided up about 400 ways.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

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Played at a CET property a few days ago, and I can confirm that they will do this. It's called "Ecash mode". A supervisor keys the machine, and I was allowed to keep playing and sign for the jackpots at the end.

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Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

Played at a CET property a few days ago, and I can confirm that they will do this. It's called "Ecash mode". A supervisor keys the machine, and I was allowed to keep playing and sign for the jackpots at the end.

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Does this mean that handpays are not required?...only that W2Gs are required?

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Does this mean that handpays are not required?...only that W2Gs are required?

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W2Gs are always required, but you have the option are signing one big W2G at the end of your session, or signing for them as they come.

I am not sure about handpays. I've seen handpays made in two ways: by actual cash and by ticket. I have never seen anyone just have the credits remain on the machine.

But keep in mind that at some casinos, machines will have a maximum number of credits allowed and anything above that maximum number will cause the machine to spit out a ticket for the excess. I've never seen that happen in Vegas, but I've seen in at casinos in California.

I'm totally doing this "ecash mode" next time I play.

I despise handpays with a passion, both because it freezes the game and because I'm expected to tip.

Also could "ecash mode" possibly avoid a W2-G if you lose after hitting your big hand?

For example, let's say I am playing $1/credit and hit four aces with 2-3-4 in DDB, getting me $2000.

Normally that would require a handpay.

But if I'm in e-cash mode and then proceed to lose $900, and quit with $1100 in the machine, would I get a W2-G? Or would I not get one because I finished with less than the required $1200?

Right, I was able to get the jackpots credited to the machine, so no handpays. Sped up the game considerably. I've had the machine spit out tickets for excess (in Cherokee, not in LV). Not sure if that's dependent on the machine itself or the jurisdiction.

Dan, I don't think ecash mode lets you avoid w-2gs in that scenario. They write them down on a sheet of paper as you hit them, and you sign/initial each one at the end.

It wouldn't avoid the W2G.