Printable View
Aruze Gaming based in Vegas is the maker of Shoot To Win Craps. On their website they call it mechanical craps. They do not refer to it as a slot machine.
I emailed them and specifically asked if it's a slot machine and if it is how does it comply with the regulation of a minimum 75% return.
I'll post their response. I emailed their media relations department.
Alan, do you have any plans to e-mail/call Interblock Luxury Gaming Products (http://www.interblockgaming.com/) to ask them the same question (they also are a major manufacturer of machine craps) ? What if their opinion differs from Aruze Gaming and you never solicited an opinion from them on this matter ? Which companies' opinion gets priority if their opinions differ ? What's for certain is that machine craps (bubble craps) is not a table game since table games require a dealer(s)/stickpersons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Never knew about the Interblock Gaming machine. Sure, I'll email them.
What would you call a blackjack game that has a video screen and no live dealer? Is that a slot machine or a table game?
They're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Alan, you said something earlier about a "guaranteed return." Slot machines, whether it's video poker or whatever, don't have guaranteed returns. They have theoretical returns. To determine the optimum theoretical payback of a video poker you have to calculate the strategy first then multiply it by the payoffs. The equation is:
Probability X Payoff
The payoff for 9/6 Jacks is advertised as 99.54%. But that's only with optimum strategy. If you are a player that plays the 3-card royals over the high pairs then the theoretical payback is reduced to 99.47%. Every change you make in the optimum strategy reduces the payback of the game. Because it's a game of choice a player has the ability to severely reduce the payback...even to below that state's theoretical minimum of 75%. Here's a question to ponder:
What theoretical payback would a blind person have playing 9/6 Jacks?
Somewhere in my memory I seem to remember that if you held all five cards every time the payback would be about 55%.
In the case of craps, whether it's live or machine, there is nothing you can do to alter the theoretical payback of any bet. If you make a passline bet it has a theoretical return of 98.59%. And there is nothing you can do to change that. The Any Seven bet has the worst theoretical payback of any craps bet, 83.3333%. It's well within the state's theoretical minimum payback of 75%.
Alan, while you are at it ask Aruze about their Dealer's Angels blackjack consoles. It was a beatable game at one time. Ask them about the changes they had to make to the game to stop the AP's from beating them.
And the money these games make is reported under Slot Machines in the Nevada Gaming Control Board Gaming Revenue Reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by quahaugThey're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAnd the money these games make is reported under Slot Machines in the Nevada Gaming Control Board Gaming Revenue Reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by quahaugThey're all slot machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Hey folks,
I have never played these games, but it did occur to me that I know a handful of people who have played these games, and for reasonable stakes, as in $50-$70 a pop, which goes about every 30-40 seconds on the mechanical craps game. It was clear to all of these people that they were getting comp points at a rate for slot play, not table play. That doesn't, by itself, make it a lock to be a slot machine, but it is suggestive.
So a couple posters on this forum are wondering if Bubble Craps and other e-table games are slots. Mickey astutely found out that the Nevada Gaming Control Board considers these games slots. So a governing body which has the definitive verdict on this defines these as slots and yet a poster is going to contact Bubble Craps manufacturers to see if these games are considered slots even though these companies must answer to the Nevada Gaming Control Board for any games they wish to operate in the State of Nevada. At least with respect to the state of Nevada, I find this exercise pretty silly since the board, with their overarching authority has defined these as slots.
Here's a surprise:
According to the maker it is an "Electronic Table Game."
I now have calls in to three departments at the NGC:
Taxation, Enforcement, Technology
Mickey can you point out where on your print out it mentions Shoot To Win craps is listed as a slot?
Please ask if they can explain the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
As most all can see, the above 2 numbnuts, Alan and Betty both lead rich fulfilling lives, lol.....Alan, shouldnt you be working on keeping wife #12 happy?....and Betty, don`t you have jockstraps to scrub before practice?.....2 miserable putz`s
I'm now retired Biloxi Bill. In fact, I no longer live in California and I will probably never set foot in Tony's office again. Happy?
Let me ask this question: why would a casino have an option about which tax rate to pay?Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyPlease ask if they can explain the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Maybe they lobbied for a regulation like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Why would slot machines be taxed at a lower rate than table games anyway? Do they generate less revenue per square foot than the tables?
I have now spoken to two out of three divisions of the NGC.
Enforcement said they believed the video poker game with a dealer on a screen is a slot, and they believe that "bubble craps" is a slot.
Taxation says these are both "electronic table games" but fall under the slots category "because an RNG is used."
STOP!!!!
If an RNG is used for Shoot To Win craps, I asked, does that mean the RNG controls the dice and not the bouncing of the table?
For that question I was referred to Technology and I am waiting for a response to the question.
I don't know for sure that they are taxed differently overall, perhaps they pay fewer fees on a slot.
Of course they are controlled by an rng. A human arm connected to a hand that tosses dice against a wall with little diamond shaped thingies on it is also an rng.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The way the game was explaimed to me is that the big dice have a chip on each side which tells the machine which side is up. The vibrations of the table rotate the dice. There was no RNG spinning reels or choosing numbers.
That was the explanation I got when the machine first appeared.
Now am I supposed to understand that an RNG actually rotates the dice and moves the floor in the game? I'm having trouble with that being the case.
I'm going to guess that the RNG is involved in the movement of the table floor.
I still haven't got a response from Technology and I asked the media relations person of the company for a phone call.
I have charted over 10,000 rolls on the Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine in Las Vegas using the Trinity Method ( http://www.trinitymethod.info/ ) and I can testify that the machine is indeed a slot machine with pseudorandom number generator, also known as a deterministic random bit generator. This was verified during a personal face to face interview with a Nevada Gaming board agent that said the machine does by law meet the 75 percent requirement, but is often in the 91% range every time he has personally field tested them or seen the numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I also interviewed the Manager of Table Games for Aruze that is in charge of the Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine at the G2E Conference in Las Vegas and he confirmed that all casinos treat his machine as a slots machine. He also said he gets complaints often from casinos that the return on his Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine is not as high as most slots machines in the casinos and that it takes up more room. Hence, the reason sweatjoints like Sam's Town, SouthPoint and M Casino removed their Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machines.
Travis, how does the RNG control the two big dice?
So 24 hours ago in a different, "how would you play this" thread, Alan stated that the "bouncy floor" was responsible for 'tossing' the dice. I was pretty sure he was wrong and asked if he was sure of this. Alan gave a defiant, one word answer "Yes".
Turns out, Alan wasn't sure of anything, because what he described is NOT the way it works. It couldn't be, because that wouldn't be random. But the point is, here is Alan definitively stating something as fact, that he has no idea about. AND turns out he was dead wrong.
The problem is this is not an isolated incident. This scenario has played out over and over and over again. Alan saying something that just isn't true and he is later proven wrong (which he never accepts). Alan gets some sort of notion or idea in his head, from God knows where, and states it as fact. Alan, you have got to be like the worst journalist ever. Stop making shit up and stating them as fact!
Alan, it is not the RNG, but a PRNG or DRBG. Sure parts of the machine can satisfy RNG qualifications like the vibration plate, but overall the machine is considered a DRBG. I don't believe you will ever get the exact DRBG and "how" as that is a company trade secret. However, the Trinity Method videos and manual break down how to beat the algorithm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results.
tableplay, many virtual machines do have an algorithm that is not a pure random number generator (RNG). For reference see the Florida State Gaming Commission testimony when considering the interBlock's Organic machines. Expert reports were introduced to the State of Florida that proved these InterBlock Organic machines are not purely random.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic. As with most casino machines that are virtual or part virtual, you are playing against a computer that calculates a predetermined slot hold for the casino based upon gaming regulations. There are not as many InterBlock Organic craps machines in Las Vegas (2 white dice) as the rest of the county (with 3 dice) and we only have about 2,000 rolls charted. However, the data indicates that the InterBlock Organic craps are much tighter and produce a better profit for the casino than Aruze. In my experience, The Lucky Dragon is the worst for the consumer compared to MGM and Santa Fe. My best profits on InterBlock Organic craps was at Aria, but they removed theirs shorly after I had a few big wins there using the Trinity Method. Bellagio also took out their InterBlock Organic craps.
BTW, I went to InterBlock's old offices by the airport when they 1st came to Las Vegas to ask them about their Organic craps. Their offices were on the other side of the airport tunnel before they had their craps machine approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission, but now they have moved their offices over by the rest of the big slot companies. Their old offices were locked with a doorbell. They would not let me in but instead sent a representative to talk to me outside for about 20 minutes. If it was a pure RNG system, what would they have to hide?
I also met with the Head Marketing guy at MGM who told me the Chairman of MGM is good friends with the owner of InterBlock and did them a favor by putting their games near Hakkasan Nightclub to garner all the club traffic. The business problem is the Hakkasan Nightclub requires people to stand in line and so the MGM Interblock gaming area sits empty while thousands stand in line just a few feet away for hours.
Thank you, this makes sense. The RNG controls the table plate and the RFID chip is read by the machine sensors. This is how the game was described to me. It would also make sense that one or both dice would be replaced from wear and that could be when certain results show too often. After all that is a reason why real dice are changed at a real craps table -- dice get worn and worn dice may not be fair dice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGeeAlan, it is not the RNG, but a PRNG or DRBG. Sure parts of the machine can satisfy RNG qualifications like the vibration plate, but overall the machine is considered a DRBG. I don't believe you will ever get the exact DRBG and "how" as that is a company trade secret. However, the Trinity Method videos and manual break down how to beat the algorithm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results.
Now to another topic and that one thing is clear here, kewlj is anti Alan. He just loved to lash out and blast me for allegedly being wrong, but I wasn't.
Of course kewlj doesn't like me because I won't swallow his claim that he can count two blackjack tables at once. Frankly, he's admitted that it can be done only under a few conditions so I don't really care anymore what he claims. The only thing I care about is when he makes threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Here ya go kewlj. Read for yourself: http://www.crapspit.org/bubble-craps-machine/Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Don't take a thing seriously that Travis McGee is writing. Look at the link he provided (trinity method) and you'll see it's a complete scam.
I have a friend who worked this game here, the Aruze Dealer's Angels Blackjack. You can see that the dealer is animated. According to my friend it was a 4-deck game and you could see the shuffle point. The animated dealer would actually shuffle the cards. The shuffle point was reached at the 80th card dealt. That would be 38% penetration. All five stations played from the same deck. So he would sit down on the console playing one machine betting $1. Once the dealer shuffled the cards he would start the count and continuing to bet just $1. Different consoles had different max bets. But for instance, with good counts he would go from betting 1 machine at $1 to betting all 5 machines at $20. I think that is a 1 to 100 betting spread. He said that some consoles had a $100 max bet.
According to my friend he wasn't the only one exploiting these consoles and to stop the AP's from beating them Aruze wound up having to reconfigure the game where the shuffle point couldn't be seen.
Kewlj, you are the blackjack expert here. Do you think this game was exploitable under the conditions I described? I think RS might be a blackjack player too. So what is you guys opinion here?
CAUTION - OFF TOPIC
RS, Although you are entitled to your opinion, I do not understand how you can form an opinion and make it public without ever having read my book, seen my videos or spoken to me about my craps betting ideas. What basis do you or any one else have to express negative and disparaging remarks about me, my products and my company? My assumption is that you have no basis whatsoever since my office has informed me you are not a purchaser of any of our products.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS__
Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.
You can sue me to because your system is bunk.
Travis, you picked the wrong site to push your product. There are professional gamblers here that know better. Based in probability theory there is no craps system that can overcome the house edge and that includes the system or systems that you sell. I don't have to buy your product or read your material to know that it is bunk. If you sue me I will counter sue you for fucking with me. Not only that but I will blast it all over the internet that you sell bunk craps systems.
No you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.
The more I think about it the funnier it gets. So, Travis, your records indicate that a Mr. RS has not bought any of your products? That's hilarious. But hey, you don't seem that bad of a guy. I'll tell ya what I'll what do. I'll give the heads up on what his initials stand for. His full name is Mr. Rolling Stoned.
It wasn't a threat V. It was a warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVNo you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGeeCAUTION - OFF TOPIC
RS, Although you are entitled to your opinion, I do not understand how you can form an opinion and make it public without ever having read my book, seen my videos or spoken to me about my craps betting ideas. What basis do you or any one else have to express negative and disparaging remarks about me, my products and my company? My assumption is that you have no basis whatsoever since my office has informed me you are not a purchaser of any of our products.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS__
Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.
I am not here to advertise or debate the merits of my products. That is off topic. I simply referenced it in response to the topic at hand and the original post. Your post however has no basis whatsoever. I do have RS's legal address so if you will kindly provide me yours in a PM so we can handle this matter offsite.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I don't consider myself an expert on anything, including blackjack mickey. I count cards....I didn't come up with that or any of the other things I have incorporated into my game and approach. But anyway, if they showed you the shuffle point and you had the ability to raise wagers as you describe, yes it was countable and exploitable. I have seen that game a couple places, I guess about a year ago (maybe longer), but never took a good look. I have not even seen it recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
But the other console BJ game, the one with a dealer on screen who is a bit less animated (90% female dealers with big boobs), who makes that? That game is much more common in vegas at places like, El Cortez, the D, Circus Circus, and many more. The "big boob" console game doesn't show a shuffle, but the rumor is that the shuffle is when they change dealers. I have never had that confirmed as more than a rumor, but have positive results playing that game. It's a small sample size, so that too is meaningless. I only play at one downtown casinos for 10-15 minutes at a time, while I am waiting for a seat at their double deck BJ game. But I have been playing steady once or twice a week for over a year, probably close to a hundred hours by now and am up enough that I keep throwing a few minutes at it each week.
I'd be careful about any threats of violence especially involving a gun or anything lethal. Police and the FBI do not take them lightly. PM me for more information.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVNo you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.
Mickey and RS, I think you guys are being a little too hard on Travis McGee. I took a quick look at his link to "whatever" crap system and I don't know a thing about craps, so formed no real opinion, other than it was likely all non-sense. However, whether or not his system works is sort of irrelevant, as far as how the bubble crap game works. So his research and inquiries to the manufacturers concerning the mechanics and randomness of the game, should not be dismissed.
The bouncy floor is not determining the number rolled! It's just not! That would not be random and would be highly exploitable. That bouncy floor and roll is just for show. The roll is determined by computer!
If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.
I don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
My best guess is that you aren't supposed to know. They won't sell you the machines to take them apart. Just a guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I posted a link to an article that explains how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJI don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You shoot your mouth off too many times.
Alan are you really THIS naïve and gullible, or is everything you do and say here some sort of act?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You posted a link to some craps blog where someone (apparently as gullible as you) is speculating about how the game works.
Does this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?
How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?
I this was legal, then those computerized roulette games would just "so called randomly" pick a number that the player(s) just don't happen to be betting on. YIKES! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
KJ who said this?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I too want to know how the machine supposedly makes the dice land per the RNG. I'm not buying it. I think there's enough shaking, vibrating and poping that the dice end up being as random as it can get.
The RNG does not tell the dice how to land IMO.
Even if it did, just like in VP, they can't adjust the RNG to determine the desired hold(I believe that's what Travis is claiming about the craps?) they would have to change the payouts.
Agian,
from my understanding, per Nevada Gaming, anything using dice or cards must be random and represent real dice outcomes. If that's the case, it would not make sense, at least here in NV that machine percentages could be adjusted using the RNG, they would have to change the payouts.
I have already touched on that using roulette as an example. It's a good question, however, most people don't bet that way. If the machine is self-adjusting to get the desired hold would it would have to target individual bettors after they made their bets. I'm fairly certain this would be Illegal cheating by the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyDoes this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?
How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?
Maybe electro-magnets, that the machine can turn on and off so that the predetermined sides face down?Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Alan, I'm not arguing with you about how the machines work. IIRC you didn't think they were considered slots in the first place. I don't know, perhaps you just wanted to prove someone wrong as per your "investigation".Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonI posted a link to an article that explains how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJI don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You shoot your mouth off too many times.
I think KJ's post to you using what TM said was jumping the gun.
In the past, I was thinking about linking you to some stuff online(one was about a 150% loss rebate). I just figured you would dispute if it was legitimate or not.
So I'm just curious when you link to articles online whats the determining factor if that article is correct or not?
Do you get to pick and choose if the information is correct or not depending if it hurts or helps your argument?
Personally, I try to find multiple sources(that's not always available), and then I try to determine what sounds reasonable and logical.
My understanding is that roulette can not be fully hedged, that there is no combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
for every outcome.
Can e-craps be fully hedged, with a combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%?
If yes, can one player make those bets from the same position?
There is no mystery as to how the game works. I will get the official answer from either the company or the Technology Department at the NGC. Contrary to the claims of a certain forum members these things are not secrets.
So the way to go about things then is to simply go to a crowded (but with one empty seat) communal Interblock station consisting of civilians, sit down in the empty seat, and then bet a smaller, mutually exclusive bet (with respect to what the civilians are betting) and profit. The machine will choose the path of highest Casino EV. Simple example: the aggregate civilian Pass Line Bet is ~$3000, so the non-Civilian bets $2995 (assuming it's below the table max) on the don't side . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGeetableplay, many virtual machines do have an algorithm that is not a pure random number generator (RNG). For reference see the Florida State Gaming Commission testimony when considering the interBlock's Organic machines. Expert reports were introduced to the State of Florida that proved these InterBlock Organic machines are not purely random.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic. As with most casino machines that are virtual or part virtual, you are playing against a computer that calculates a predetermined slot hold for the casino based upon gaming regulations. There are not as many InterBlock Organic craps machines in Las Vegas (2 white dice) as the rest of the county (with 3 dice) and we only have about 2,000 rolls charted. However, the data indicates that the InterBlock Organic craps are much tighter and produce a better profit for the casino than Aruze. In my experience, The Lucky Dragon is the worst for the consumer compared to MGM and Santa Fe. My best profits on InterBlock Organic craps was at Aria, but they removed theirs shorly after I had a few big wins there using the Trinity Method. Bellagio also took out their InterBlock Organic craps.
I agree that could work in theory. I have yet to hear anyone claim that's whats happening. Not even Travis who has supposedly investigated this extensively. Here is what he said....Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyMaybe electro-magnets, that the machine can turn on and off so that the predetermined sides face down?Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
"An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results"
Let's pretend they do use magnets, and they do alter the outcomes to achieve the desired HA. Do you think this would be considered cheating?
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyQuote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
Can e-craps be fully hedged, with a combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%?
Just got off the phone with the Technology Department of the NGC.
1. The RNG is called a "mechanical RNG" and while I never heard that before it simply means it controls the bouncing and vibration of the table that propels the dice.
2. There is no computer controlling the dice and the dice are random. There are sensors in the dice that tell the game how the dice land.
3. Yes the game must meet the theoretical 75% return and this is determined both by looking at the available bets and pays but also by monitoring machine performance. If a machine falls out of this 75% return they will examine the machine for any possible problems such as wear on the dice.
As I said all along this game was all about a vibrating and bouncing table platform propelling the dice.
If you don't believe me call the NGC yourself.
Would you be willing to prove this claim to him privately?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
If you do have his address, I have to assume you estimated when he may have looked at your website and used his IP to determine his address?
I would NOT want to go to your website knowing you might use it to obtain someone's address, no matter what the reason may be.
I would suggest everyone stay away from your website if that's the case.
What is the theoretical return on live craps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Axel I questioned whether the game was a slot because I knew slots had to have the 75% theoretical return. The game does indeed have to meet the 75% theo return. See my post above.
At a real craps table no one is monitoring for a 75% return, theoretical or otherwise.
Good question. It will vary from casino to casino depending on the pays for various bets including the hardways, horn and field bets.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyWhat is the theoretical return on live craps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
In monitoring the mechanical craps game the NGC goes even farther and in addition to the bets and pays it looks at the actual performance.
How do they project how many hardways, horn and field bets will be made ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonGood question. It will vary from casino to casino depending on the pays for various bets including the hardways, horn and field bets.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyWhat is the theoretical return on live craps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The machine will not allow the player to place a pass and don't pass bet at the same time (on factory default settings at least). The player must choose one or the other. So play two stations to accomplish this, or, if the casino restricts this, then "bring a friend". If no friends are available (and the casino restricts you to one station) there are other hedges such as making a buy bet and lay bet on the same number (lay bet at about twice the value of the buy bet if the hedge is done on the 4 or the 10, etc.). Obviously because of the vig these are imperfect hedges but on big point multiplier days (and/or with a high enough players' card level) the vig can be overcome. Also, if you are the only shooter at the station, you will have to place a minimum bet on the don't or pass line to hedge using a buy/lay bet or the machine won't allow you to roll the dice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyDoes this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?
How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?
I dont remember asking a question just now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
If you knew slots had to have a 75% theoretical return, why did you ask me about that earlier? Seems strange to me.
Can someone link me to where this conversation originally started? I can't seem to find it. page name of thread, please
So if you and a team mate each play at a station, one betting X on pass and one betting X on don't pass,Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
then the team is guaranteed to lose .X for each outcome...is that correct?
And each player earns the same number of points, which are based on coin-in?
Do players earn more points for riskier bets?
Thread: How would you play this casino offer?Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
12-09-2017, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Oh, you want my address, eh? Well, you don't seem to be to bad of a guy. I'll tell ya what I'll do. I'll tell ya where I live. I live in BAD CITY. Down on BAD STREET. The farther down the street ya go the BADDER THEY GET. I live in the LAST HOUSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
I am not here to advertise or debate the merits of my products. That is off topic. I simply referenced it in response to the topic at hand and the original post. Your post however has no basis whatsoever. I do have RS's legal address so if you will kindly provide me yours in a PM so we can handle this matter offsite.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
To answer coach belly's question: the NGC says they take each individual bet and pay and then add them all up and the average return has to be at least 75%.
In reality not every bet is made on a craps table but thats the method they use.
So they would add up all the center table bets and box numbers and hedge bets and get an average return.
I think that's how the return on Video Poker is also figured.
If you have one player on pass and one player on don't pass the house still has an edge on both bets. In the case of the comeout roll with a 12 the pass loses but the don't pass is a push.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellySo if you and a team mate each play at a station, one betting X on pass and one betting X on don't pass,Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
then the team is guaranteed to lose .X for each outcome...is that correct?
And each player earns the same number of points, which are based on coin-in?
Do players earn more points for riskier bets?
LOL. I have no idea how you can pat yourself on the back. I don't know anyone resonable who was disputing that in the first place. You made some calls and found out what most of us knew already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
That was not even the main point of all this.
Lets take a look at what else you were claiming.
Alan M
"Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.
So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.
The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return."
Actually Axel that was all directed at kewlj.
I don't even understand what the above means. Don't machine games that simulate live games have to follow the percentages of the live games? Like video poker assumes a 52-card non-rigged deck.
Ok, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
It wasn't a threat. It was a warningQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonI'd be careful about any threats of violence especially involving a gun or anything lethal. Police and the FBI do not take them lightly. PM me for more information.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVNo you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee
That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.
He's the one that invited me to a confrontation. I never invited him to go anywhere or do anything.
From my understanding, per the rules of gaming, you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
Craps has some really bad bets, I can see how one place might have a much higher hold for the casino than another casino.
It would make sense that a local casino has smarter and lower limit bettors taking advantage of free drinks while betting slow.
The hold wouldn't be as good as a place on the strip where people have more money and make significantly worst bets.
I wouldn't suggest anyone believe that some of the local casinos took them out because they were being beaten. I would suggest they were not getting as much action and bad bets as many other location. I (and a few others)know for almost a fact that one of the casinos Travis memtioned didnt take out the machines because the machines were being beat.
Kewlj said the dice were controlled by a computer and he said I was wrong about the motion of the table. Then he went into his usual rant that I'm anti AP and a bad journalist. He can apologize anytime he wants to.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfOk, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
All I said was that I questioned whether bubble craps was a slot game. I knew slots had to meet certain conditions and in fact bubble craps meets those conditions.
We can all sing Kumbaya now.
I need to go one question at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonKewlj said the dice were controlled by a computer and he said I was wrong about the motion of the table. Then he went into his usual rant that I'm anti AP and a bad journalist. He can apologize anytime he wants to.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfOk, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
All I said was that I questioned whether bubble craps was a slot game. I knew slots had to meet certain conditions and in fact bubble craps meets those conditions.
We can all sing Kumbaya now.
Why did you ask me about the 75% min payback rule, but then claim you knew about it?
Understood, but if 2 players (playing as a team) are placing opposite bets (one pass & one don't pass),Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
what is the overall house edge over this team?
Is the entire edge the 12 comeout roll, where the pass loses but the don't pass pushes?
Is there any number or sequence of numbers that could cause both the pass & don't pass to lose?
The house edge on competing bets is at least 1% coach. Maybe a fraction smaller.
Only one side of the bet can win and one loses or pushes. In craps there is no mathematical way to beat the house.
I'm sorry to say this but only luck or DI will make you a winner.
Even blackjack beats craps.