I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
I beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Thanks jbjb.
You’re hurting my soul. He shoves, you fold and he wins what...one BB? Maybe he caught a read on you that told him you had complete junk and he wanted to try to get something for his aces. He was probably hoping you’d catch a lower pair or maybe some kind of draw that would have him in a superior position but with more money in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonI beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Thanks jbjb.
Anyway, there are plenty of reasons one might slow play pocket rockets.
Were there any callers before it came around to him? If so, how many? That would make a pretty big difference.
But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in. Hell, maybe you’ll try to steal it from me...that’d be nice.
Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146You’re hurting my soul. He shoves, you fold and he wins what...one BB? Maybe he caught a read on you that told him you had complete junk and he wanted to try to get something for his aces. He was probably hoping you’d catch a lower pair or maybe some kind of draw that would have him in a superior position but with more money in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonI beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Thanks jbjb.
Anyway, there are plenty of reasons one might slow play pocket rockets.
Were there any callers before it came around to him? If so, how many? That would make a pretty big difference.
But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in. Hell, maybe you’ll try to steal it from me...that’d be nice.
Your last question is definitely a good one to ask. That’s the trick to slow-playing rockets, you can’t be married to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Now, did his bet put you all-in or himself all-in post flop? If not and you didn’t go over the top all-in, then you slow played your boat.
You call it the wrong strategy. I think it's strategy that makes sense. I'm sorry you see it differently. So okay we disagree.
Regarding AA: the best strategy is always to slow play AA. What was the SB going to do? Should he have pushed pre flop to win my BB and one caller?
With only two other players he HAD to slow play his AA and unfortunately my junk hit. That's poker. (Isn't that the saying?)
How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.
I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.
If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.
I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.
Of course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyHow can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
Why do you need to look at your cards before it's your turn to act?...especially in the BB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonOf course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyHow can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
Read Mike Caro's book. He is a big proponent for slow playing aces. Look the guy got caught. Accidents happen. He actually played correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.
I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.
If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.
I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.
We chickens make big bets with AA and we scare away the customers. I certainly would have folded my 92 to any raise and the other player (caller) likely would have folded unless he held AA, KK, QQ, JJ which isn't likely since he called and didn't raise either.
I have no idea what Alan's skill level is, but he would hardly be the first player to check his cards before his turn to act that I've ever seen...and I don't play much.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
He could also be playing Alan's tendencies. Maybe he knows that Alan is tight pre-flop, if that's the case. I don't know the exact situation, I'm just saying that the guy may have been doing it for a reason that had something to do with what he thinks Alan is likely to do.
I don't but I'm an amateur.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyWhy do you need to look at your cards before it's your turn to act?...especially in the BB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan MendelsonOf course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
That's fine, when you said, "That's why you never slow play Aces," I thought you were being serious. My mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I don't know what I would have done if I was the other guy, depends on the size of the raise. If the Raise is only to 4x BB, for example, then your fold and my call puts the pot at 9x BB, but I've only got 4x BB in there. I would personally like high pairs or high suited connectors there over folding. Might even go over the top if I think there's weakness, but let's be honest, I am almost disturbingly bad at reading people...so I'm not going to, "Sense," any weakness. Not knowing my opponent has aces, there's probably even some value in a suited Ace-X for the potential flush draw.
If he shoves and I hope nobody here ever plays poker against me now, but I'm probably folding anything that's not KK or AA.
If you only called the BB and then someone shoves you had better fold anything besides AA or KK.
I don't know that any poker rule is a Universal. There are probably players good enough to call with less than that in that situation who have a good reason for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Although the game is different, the concept is the same. You'll get more back holding the straight flush draw. You CANNOT be results oriented in gambling. That's why I used the AA vs 72 analogy. Read this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...ey-back-often/
You should not limp in with AA unless you think an aggressive opponent to your left will raise you, and then call your reraise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.
I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.
If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.
I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.
Otherwise, limping with AA is a disaster, because it is impossible to put the blinds on a hand, and fairly difficult to put the non-blinds on a hand.
Without the ability to put people on a hand, it makes it much tougher to make good laydowns, and you're not likely to extract all that much money with the AA unless you flop a set and they also hit something.
AA's greatest strength is making a lot of money preflop, either from all-ins or by pot committing your oppponent with another pocket pair when both of you flop an underboard.
Limping with AA from the SB isn't quite as bad, because the BB calls a ton of hands to a SB raise anyway, so you're still dealing with having a hard time putting them on a hand even if you raise and they call. Additionally, blinds don't tend to trust each other regarding actually having a hand, so sometimes you can still extract decent money when your opponent on the other blind flops top pair or middle pair. However, you can't commit too much, because they easily could have flopped a funny two pair on you.
Bottom line is that, in general, if you always raise with AA and never limp with it, then you're probably playing correctly preflop.
Dan Druff,
Cool, thanks for the answer! Having you basically agree with me on that one makes me feel somewhat validated as I'm not usually too comfortable talking about poker.
In Alan's case, there was one caller, so you would definitely not limp the aces as the SB. It seems that you're saying you could make an argument for limping in if everyone folds around to the SB and the SB has the rockets, right? My thinking would be if I know the BB is really conservative and has a very narrow range of calling hands, then I would want to go ahead and limp in and, as you pointed out, hope that he catches top pair or middle pair.
There's also always the chance that the BB takes you for a weak hand and tries to steal one from you pre-flop.
I do agree that a player isn't wrong just to always raise AA.
Let me clarify this situation. It would be an all in PRE-FLOP by the A,A and cold called by the 7,2 off with no previous action in the pot. I see there has been much speculation on the circumstances of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
The kids in the game today will 4 bet with less than Aces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146I don't know that any poker rule is a Universal. There are probably players good enough to call with less than that in that situation who have a good reason for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You would only limp with AA in a SB/BB confrontation if one of the following is true:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission146
1) You think the BB is aggressive and will raise your limp, and you can then re-raise him (though this will pretty much give away that you have a strong hand)
-or-
2) You're looking to deceive your opponent into believing you have a weak hand, thus calling your flop bets with only a small piece of it
But you're really just better off raising here.
Why?
First off, most good players will raise the SB in a SB/BB confrontation with a very wide range of hands (even some below average ones), so raising is not giving anything away.
Second, and somewhat related to the first, you might get 3-bet, which will then allow you to 4-bet, and possibly get a call if they have something decent.
Third, against certain opponents who will fold trash in the BB to a SB raise, you are helping yourself put them on a hand if they call your preflop raise. So if the board comes 842, you know they probably don't have 84, 42, or 82, which is useful information.
Fourth, and this is sometimes over looked, is that you actually WANT your opponent to have big cards, and those are the ones most likely to call your preflop raise. Not only does AA crush big-card and high pocket pair holdings heads up, but AA is also likely to extract a lot of money against them postflop. When AA faces a hand like 74o, the pot is usually only getting pumped up postflop when the AA is behind (such as being against a straight, trips, or 2 pair), and obviously you don't want that. So it's not even a huge deal if a hand like that folds to you pre, as you're not likely to get a lot of chips from them postflop anyway. Compare this to hands like AK (wins 5% of the time against AA) or KQ, where if they flop something like top pair, you're still getting good money from them, and your chances to win are high. Bottom line is that it's not a tragedy if junk hands fold against your AA prefop from the blinds. The strongest hand against AA is 67 suited (different suited than both aces) -- still an underdog, but the best thing to have against AA in a heads up runout.
Also, don't try to get too cute with AA preflop from a non-blind position.
Many people fear a fold-around to their AA, feeling they "wasted" it, so they either limp or min-raise.
The limping brings on the problems mentioned above.
The min-raise sends a red flag up that you have AA if you never otherwise min-raise. (Same with limping, if you never otherwise limp.)
Here's a story from 10/20 No Limit at Bellagio from years ago.
I had a $3k stack (cash game), and my opponent had me covered. He min-raised early, and I knew he had AA just from that.
Folded around to me, I had QJo. I called, and planned to tread very cautiously.
Flop came QJ4. Bingo!
I check-raised the flop, he called.
Turn was 7. I bet, he put me all in, I snap called, and he looked frustrated. He showed the AA and knew he was screwed. I showed him my QJ.
River? 4. Brutal. I lost the 6k pot. Was so frustrated that I just stood up and left without rebuying.
Anyway, my point is that it was pretty much face-up poker to me. Had I just flopped the Q, I was going to put in a call on the flop and probably pitch it on the turn, knowing how behind I was.
You need to be careful not to give away that you have AA.
This is also why I'd suggest NOT 3-betting out of the BB with a high pocket pair (including AA) if only against one opponent. Instead, just check-raise any underboard flop and go from there. A 3-bet out of the BB against a raise (except from the SB) looks incredibly strong, and players won't give you much action unless they can beat an overpair. However, you SHOULD put in 3-bets from the BB if against 2 or more opponents, as you're looking more to extract chips preflop in that spot.
Dan Druff,
RE Post #22:
Thanks! I actually find your third and fourth reasons (in that order) the most compelling. I didn't really think about the question in the context of being able to eliminate possible hands that my opponent could be on...and that's why you don't see me talking about poker very often. Reason #4 seems pretty closely related to reason #3 and would seem to amount to, "If they're betting (especially on a trash flop) you're probably behind."
RE Post #23:
Thanks for all the tips and that sucks about him catching the four, but that's poker, I guess. I don't blame you for nt re-buying, one of the few things I definitively know about poker is that it's not a good idea to play when you're pissed off, at least, not for most people.