About to go to gaming regarding confiscated points after (unfair) ban from Vegas casino -- advice?

I'm not ready to go fully public with this yet, but I'm getting close.

Here's the situation:

A certain Vegas casino has banned me from their property as a result of something I did not do.

This isn't one of these cases here an AP gets caught APing, and then makes up lies that he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary.

I was accused of something totally off-the-wall, which doesn't even involve casino play.

I only found out about this because I attempted to make a reservation there back in October, and they told me I was banned.

After a LOT of effort, I got them to reveal to me the reason, and I was floored. It was something I didn't do, and would be easy to prove I didn't do.

However, they are completely uninterested in investigating further. In fact, the "investigations" group at the casino has tried their hardest to stay out of contact with me. I was able to get a sympathetic employee in another department to pressure them to call me, at which point the ban reason was revealed. They promised a re-investigation, but then never got back to me. My attempts to reach them again have resulted in failure, and they passed a message to the sympathetic employee that they are pretty much done with the matter, and my ban is final.

This is infuriating, because I was banned for something I totally didn't do. It would be easy to prove myself innocent, but they're not letting me.

I realize it's up to each casino's discretion, regarding who is allowed in property, so I'm probably fucked.

Separately, I earned some points which never got to be used, and I plan to file a complaint with gaming to at least get the value of those points paid to me. (Dancer just did the same thing recently after he got banned.)

Questions:

1) Is there anything further I can do at this point, or am I completely fucked regarding reversing the ban? Again, this ban was NOT due to AP play, and it was due to some error where they believe I did something that I didn't. I just need someone willing to take a short time to investigate a little further.

2) Do any of you have experience going to gaming and claiming points which were confiscated after a ban?


I will not reveal the property at this time, even if you guys guess it correctly. I will reveal it publicly around the same time I file my gaming complaint.

I will only go as far to say that it was NOT at a Caesars property, where I remain in good standing.

I would go to Gaming and get a Lawyer of I were you. Get your cake and ice cream so to speak on this one. They unfairly banned you for something you didn't do, and aren't interested in letting you prove your innocence. The hell with them! Pull out the big guns on them(Figuratively, not literally, ;) Also they need to let you use those points. If not, it's a form of theft, Lawyer and Going to Gaming once again for that! You have a serious potential lawsuit to use against that Casino property.

I can count the number of times I have had a confrontation with casino staff, regarding getting screwed, on one hand. Reason being; it is zero. This is not because I haven't been screwed over. Casinos are straight up thug sometimes. Welcome to the real world. Things are going to happen. Suck it up and move on.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I can count the number of times I have had a confrontation with casino staff, regarding getting screwed, on one hand. Reason being; it is zero. This is not because I haven't been screwed over. Casinos are straight up thug sometimes. Welcome to the real world. Things are going to happen. Suck it up and move on.

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I didn't have any confrontations with anyone.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I can count the number of times I have had a confrontation with casino staff, regarding getting screwed, on one hand. Reason being; it is zero. This is not because I haven't been screwed over. Casinos are straight up thug sometimes. Welcome to the real world. Things are going to happen. Suck it up and move on.

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I didn't have any confrontations with anyone.

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Is that why the "investigations" group has been trying to avoid you? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I can count the number of times I have had a confrontation with casino staff, regarding getting screwed, on one hand. Reason being; it is zero. This is not because I haven't been screwed over. Casinos are straight up thug sometimes. Welcome to the real world. Things are going to happen. Suck it up and move on.

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I didn't have any confrontations with anyone.

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Is that why the "investigations" group has been trying to avoid you? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

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They're avoiding me because they came to a conclusion about what they think I did, were completely incorrect, and don't feel like expending the effort to find out the truth, because why the fuck should they bother?

Conceding that they wrongly blamed me for something is also conceding that they're incompetent.

It's easier just to ignore me.

I had zero contact with security while on property, FYI.

Dan, no one can give you any kind of advice without details and at least knowing your side of the story. Lacking even the basic info I can only suggest that before you run to Gaming or hire a lawyer that would inflame a dispute, that you send a letter by mail to the top boss. A real letter, not an email.

Remember my injury when a glass door cut open my hand? I got nothing from the casino until I wrote a letter and simply said "is this how you treat your loyal customers?"

If you recall all I wanted was a replacement for my shoes, slacks and jacket that were covered in blood. There was so much blood on my jacket that security insisted it be bagged and removed as hazardous material.

After I got the letter read (actually in my case it was a direct email) everything was resolved in one day.

How much is worth to you to pursue this?

You could contact Las Vegas casino adversary extraordinaire, attorney Bob Nersesian, and seek / pay for his opinion on the matter: should be definitive.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan, no one can give you any kind of advice without details and at least knowing your side of the story. Lacking even the basic info I can only suggest that before you run to Gaming or hire a lawyer that would inflame a dispute, that you send a letter by mail to the top boss. A real letter, not an email.

Remember my injury when a glass door cut open my hand? I got nothing from the casino until I wrote a letter and simply said "is this how you treat your loyal customers?"

If you recall all I wanted was a replacement for my shoes, slacks and jacket that were covered in blood. There was so much blood on my jacket that security insisted it be bagged and removed as hazardous material.

After I got the letter read (actually in my case it was a direct email) everything was resolved in one day.

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So, how much did you squeeze out of them?

$2500 free play which more than covered the jacket, shoes and pants that went into the trash. My insurance covered my medical bills.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

How much is worth to you to pursue this?

You could contact Las Vegas casino adversary extraordinaire, attorney Bob Nersesian, and seek / pay for his opinion on the matter: should be definitive.

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I doubt Dan would have to pay Bob for his quick opinion on this matter. He could call him and ask if he has a case. Dan may or may not get anywhere with the casino but I highly doubt gaming will be any help to him in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan, no one can give you any kind of advice without details and at least knowing your side of the story. Lacking even the basic info I can only suggest that before you run to Gaming or hire a lawyer that would inflame a dispute, that you send a letter by mail to the top boss. A real letter, not an email.

Remember my injury when a glass door cut open my hand? I got nothing from the casino until I wrote a letter and simply said "is this how you treat your loyal customers?"

If you recall all I wanted was a replacement for my shoes, slacks and jacket that were covered in blood. There was so much blood on my jacket that security insisted it be bagged and removed as hazardous material.

After I got the letter read (actually in my case it was a direct email) everything was resolved in one day.

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That`s one of the problems in this country...some dumbfuck wants to be compensated for not being able to walk thru a door that probably a couple hundred thousand people walked thru with no problems in the previous few days

Except the door malfunctioned and closed on my hand. And I was able to make a video showing the malfunction. But I didn't sue them for damages. All I wanted was my blood covered clothing replaced.

Once again Dan you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

LV has a lot of casinos in case you were wondering. You're always gonna have an issue somewhere, given your tightly wound personality. So when these things occur, just take the lite blow on the chin and go elsewhere with a smirk. And ignore your points. Business 102. Going to Gaming Control when you say your issue has nothing to do with casino play is meaningless. So is running to a lawyer. They'll just tell you to go somewhere else. With you not describing anything about this incident, nothing more can be said.

With the health issues you've recently described, you don't need to be tormenting yourself with this kind of unimportant stuff.

I need to explain some things here, because some people still have the wrong idea.

There was no incident at this casino. I did not have any contact with security. I did not argue with any employees. I did not argue with any other customers. There was zero disturbance of any kind.

Furthermore, I was not banned for any AP-related reason.

I was banned for a strange thing which I didn't do. It must have been a case of mistaken identity or something.

I would not have a legal case to reinstate myself, because casinos can ban me at any time for any reason (other than federally protected discrimination, which this isn't.)

Therefore, I am at the casino's mercy as to whether or not I will be unbanned -- which looks quite unlikely at this point, even though I could prove I didn't do what I was accused of doing, if they gave me a chance.

Regarding Gaming, I would only be going to them to get my points cashed out -- pretty much a small parting gift to myself. Bob Dancer did something similar recently.

Dan if its a case of mistaken identity write the letter.

Do they think they have surveillance of you writing graffiti in the garage? LOL

I am very new at this so I know any advice I give is just about worthless but here it goes.

If you have points at this casino, do you have any status? Could you go to a senior casino host? Would they at least listen?

Something I would try would be to have all your evidence that you didn't do it available with you - best if you had some sort of hard copy proof but at least something on a computer or screen that is very easy to look at and obvious to see that there is a conflict between what they say and what you know. I would then go to the casino and ask to speak to someone in management (you know casino structure better than me) but ask for someone that has some pull -like a security manager, or casino host manager. This is the most important part - you have to go to the casino and talk to people in person to make any headway. Go on a weekday - those that might be able to help you the most are likely 9-5 M-F types. I have found that many times those higher up the food chain will listen particularly if you ask in person (won't work to call or email). The key is to be super polite and don't lose your temper or act at all righteous - in fact acting apologetic will work the best as in "So sorry I had to bother you about this, I know how busy you are but I just didn't know who else to turn to for help, etc sort of BS). Just my two cents as a corporate executive.

I think going to Gaming first will only inflame the situation. Now, if you are speaking to someone at the casino and they are blowing you off (this MUST be some sort of manager you're talking to) you could politely let them know that if you don't get any further investigation that you may be forced to go to Gaming because you don't like the idea of having your name sullied for something you didn't do. Threaten them without seeming to threaten them - if it is someone in management they will listen. If it isn't really a gaming issue then going to Gaming may not help?

I don't know you at all Dan D, so sorry if this advice seems condescending I am honestly not trying to be.

Karma

Now I'm curious about the "strange" thing. Probably don't want to know but one can only imagine without details.👀😳

No idea what happened (in reality or allegedly), but I suspect when Dan makes the complaint to gaming, they're going to say something along the lines of, "The casino is a private business and can trespass anyone for any reason [other than fed. discrimination stuff], so you're still going to be trespassed. Furthermore, they also have the right to revoke your club card and any accrued or future benefits."

I'm not entirely sure how legal it is for them to take away your points and whatnot. I'd say that's at least somewhat iffy. AFAICT, you don't have a stone-cold lock of a case. Even with a case where you're 100% in the right, still probably a coin flip as far as whether they (gaming) side with you.


This isn't to say you shouldn't file a complaint, but the reality is, without knowing what actually happened, there's not much anyone can say as far as how it should be treated going forward.



And yeah, the more you play non-poker AP stuff in a casino, the more you're gonna get fucked by the casino.

RS_, I believe it is the law in Nevada that any accrued points are to be cashed out in the case a player is banned from the casino, unless that ban was for cheating. (Mine was not.)

Slyfox, I agree that going to Gaming will piss off the casino and probably crush what little chance I have left of getting unbanned.

However, I'm at the point where I think the chance of getting this reversed is so low that I might as well just go for the money at this point.

I don't think writing letters will help. I've written e-mails to several parties directly involved in the decision, and they outright ignore me.

I've also been promised several phone calls, only one of which materialized. That phone call was promising because I was told they would re-investigate and get back to me. However, they never re-investigated, never called me back, and they told the employee who followed up on it for me, "We talked to Todd. He fully understood why we banned him. He didn't agree with it, but he understood and accepted it", which is NOT AT ALL how the phone call went. The guy clearly heard that I flatly denied everything and he promised to re-investigate to make sure their info was correct, but then they decided not to for whatever reason.

I'm guessing that they realize there's a good chance I'm correct, and that this ban was erroneous, but they don't want to admit it because that would be an admission of someone's incompetence, and nobody in casino security/investigations wants to look incompetent.

Suffice to say that I'm going to blow this story up everywhere I can, once I have to take this to Gaming. At that point, I will name names and give the full details.

Dan you're now telling us that casino/hotel personnel have lied and made false representations. Don't you think they'll say the same to Gaming? It's time for you to state your case.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan you're now telling us that casino/hotel personnel have lied and made false representations. Don't you think they'll say the same to Gaming? It's time for you to state your case.

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They lied to me about calling me back and re-investigating, and then lied internally to another employee that I understood and was fine with everything.

But none of that is legally actionable.

Bottom line is they have every right to ban me if they feel like it.

I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions what to do next, and if anyone else has experience going to Gaming to recover confiscated points.

Frankly Dan if Gaming even bothers to send them a letter they'll just say they were justified and then Gaming will tell you to resolve your dispute on your own. You've already told us this is a non gaming dispute. I doubt Gaming will care about your points. You said Gaming has jurisdiction over points, so:

1. Quote where Gaming has jurisdiction over points
2. Show where Gaming would be involved in a non gaming area, despite your points

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Frankly Dan if Gaming even bothers to send them a letter they'll just say they were justified and then Gaming will tell you to resolve your dispute on your own. You've already told us this is a non gaming dispute. I doubt Gaming will care about your points. You said Gaming has jurisdiction over points, so:

1. Quote where Gaming has jurisdiction over points
2. Show where Gaming would be involved in a non gaming area, despite your points

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Bob Dancer just had a blog about this.

He went to Gaming because he got banned from a casino and couldn't redeem his points.

Prior to his Gaming complaint, they offered to redeem them at half value, because the points only had half cash value, but full freeplay value.

Dancer complained that he would have used the freeplay and not taken the cash at 0.50 on the dollar.

He lost the Gaming dispute, but only because they offered him the same cash they would have offered anyone else who wasn't banned.

In my case, I was offered zero.

I do believe I'm due something.

Is your case the same as Dancer's? Were you banned for the same reason as Dancer?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Is your case the same as Dancer's? Were you banned for the same reason as Dancer?

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No, I already explained. Mine was in Vegas, his was in Henderson.

Mine was non-gaming related, his was because he was APing a certain machine.

Exactly, Dan. Your case is not his case. And frankly no one knows the details of your case so no one can tell you what to do. So why did you even start this thread if you won't even say what the problem was even if you don't name the casino?

Dan: it seems like you are getting very worked up about this issue
is it worth getting worked up about?

I have no doubt that you were untreated unfairly
but could you change your outlook so that it doesn't torment you while you contest it?

I'm currently getting screwed by a giant organization - totally unfair - a much bigger issue than what you're facing
I'm challenging their ruling

at first I was boiling mad
but I've calmed down and am determined that this thing doesn't take over my life

it helped me to look at the thing from a worst case scenario standpoint

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Originally Posted by Half Smoke

Dan: it seems like you are getting very worked up about this issue
is it worth getting worked up about?

I have no doubt that you were untreated unfairly
but could you change your outlook so that it doesn't torment you while you contest it?

I'm currently getting screwed by a giant organization - totally unfair - a much bigger issue than what you're facing
I'm challenging their ruling

at first I was boiling mad
but I've calmed down and am determined that this thing doesn't take over my life

it helped me to look at the thing from a worst case scenario standpoint

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Mountain out of a Molehill.
Dan's OP reminds me of a ZK rant.

I have dealt with things in the Casino that were unfair or incorrect.
Perhaps, not the same as this situation.
I learned to just move on.
Figure something else out.

Did you know far worse injustices exist?
In many states you can call the police.
File a report and make up whatever story you like against someone you do not like.
The State will take over and file charges.
They don't care if it was true or not.
They will put it through the system.
It will go to pre-trial conference no matter what.
The office of the DA will push it to trial and drop the charges right before the trial starts or jury selection starts.
This can cost the accused from 4k to 20k in Attorney Fees.
You could sue the individual for the fees or slander or some other things but...
The case is near impossible to win to get any sort of reimbursement.
This happens to people every day.
Many times it happens to people who weren't even in the state of the alleged incident.
God Bless America!

Could be much worse.
You could be starving in China or Africa.
So many other situations in the world that make Dan's situation look insignificant.
Did you know little children are sold into Human Trafficking everyday?

Gender and age profile of victims detected globally: 59% Women - 14% Men - 17% Girls and 10% were Boys.

600,000 to 800,000 women, children and men bought and sold across international borders every year and exploited for forced labor or commercial sex (U.S. Government)
When internal trafficking victims are added to the estimates, the number of victims annually is in the range of 2 to 4 million
50% of those victims are estimated to be children
It is estimated that 76 percent of transactions for sex with underage girls start on the Internet
2 million children are subjected to prostitution in the global commercial sex trade (UNICEF)
There are 20.9 Million victims of Trafficking World wide as of 2012
1.5 Million victims in the United States
This was in 2012... 7 years ago!

The standard price for sex at a brothel in the U.S. is $30.
Typically, trafficked children see 25-48 customers a day.
They work up to 12 hours a day, every day of the week;
every year, a pimp earns between $150,000 and $200,000 per child.

The last statistic I read about the Catholic Church is that 6% of Priests will molest a child...
Have a wonderful day of celebration on December 25th or January 1st though!!

I just hope that Dan's false identification issue isn't over taking too many bottles of water from the VIP check in.

Do you have an airtight alibi? For instance, proving you were actually eating at the buffet and not playing a game when the incident happened? In the news there was a woman accused of being a house burglar. She was shocked since she wasn't a thief. Luckily for her, she was at a cousin's party at the time of the burglary....In another County and people had taken pictures of her at the party. Cops were like,"The house was burglarized at 7:30 at night. At 7:30, the suspect was actually 50 miles away at a party in another County according to these pictures. We have decided to release the suspect due to her airtight alibi." So Dan, find your "Party," that will prove you aren't a suspect.

Responses here are getting dumb.

I never said I was "worked up" about it. I am annoyed that I can't go to a certain major strip casino anymore, due to something I didn't even do.

Alan, the exact details are immaterial here. I'm asking for exact advice as to what to do in these situations where you're banned from a casino for something you didn't do, and the ones in charge of determining that are refusing to talk to you further. Regarding Bob Dancer, while our ban reasons were different, that's also immaterial. You are either entitled to your points or you're not, and Dancer wrote a whole article about how you ARE entitled to earned points. I tend to believe him, though I don't have any experience in this area yet.

Dan get a lawyer. What else can anyone say?
How can anyone comment without knowing what happened?
A lawyer will talk to you in confidence.
If you continue here asking for advice without letting anyone know what happened you're just being a drama queen.
I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan get a lawyer. What else can anyone say?
How can anyone comment without knowing what happened?
A lawyer will talk to you in confidence.
If you continue here asking for advice without letting anyone know what happened you're just being a drama queen.
I'm done.

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You aren't reading anything I'm writing.

I think this is why people get so frustrated with you here. Sometimes you just abandon logic and fire off answers to people without thinking. This is one of those times.

Once again:

- A lawyer cannot help me because the casino can ban me for any reason at any time. If this is going to get resolved, it will be the casino itself deciding to reverse it.

- I'm not asking for people to comment about what happened. I'm asking two specific questions (see my last post) which do not require specific knowledge of the situation to answer.

1) Is there anything further I can do at this point, or am I completely fucked regarding reversing the ban? Again, this ban was NOT due to AP play, and it was due to some error where they believe I did something that I didn't. I just need someone willing to take a short time to investigate a little further.

The odds are way against you but you could get things reversed.
Depends on how much you work on it and go talk to people with some power.
Depends on what you did and how they value your play.
Depends on if you have any connections which I don't think you do for this.
This isn't Poker no matter how much you want it to be.
You and I could do the same thing and the Casino bans me and not you.
They are not very black and white or unilateral in decision making.
I have seen the Casino Ban players, take their points and no mail them and let them back in 6 months later many times.
However, Vegas is getting statistic/computer happy and very serious about banning Advantage or Advantage Type of Players.

Aren't you a poker wiz or a winning poker player?
Somewhat Famous?
They don't like them as much anymore either.
Especially if they are beating them on the Casino Floor.

2) Do any of you have experience going to gaming and claiming points which were confiscated after a ban?

Why call gaming and get more heat on you?
ZK calls gaming all the time and it can not help him fly under the radar.

I try hard not to let my points build up.
When I play something and hammer it I get my points out ASAP.
Many times I take the points out while I am playing.
I have let comp get out of control but never points that can be converted to FP or Cash.
I try not to let the Comp build up anymore either.
I will raid the gift shop or get massive to go orders to wipe out my comp.
If you let your points build up that is your fault for not getting them out.
With Machine Play you never know what they are going to do with your points.
Better to get them out... only maniacs let them build up to dollar amounts that would bother you if they closed your account.

Dan no one can answer your question about reversing your ban unless they know why you were banned.

So why were you banned?

If they think it was you who stole bottles of water from the VIP check in you might get the ban reversed.

But if they think it was you who molested a cocktail waitress you don't stand a chance.

You keep saying why you got banned doesn't matter. Well you got banned and frankly I don't think it was over bottles of water. And if it wasn't about card counting or AP play it seems to me your head is in the sand and you've got a problem.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan no one can answer your question about reversing your ban unless they know why you were banned.

So why were you banned?

If they think it was you who stole bottles of water from the VIP check in you might get the ban reversed.

But if they think it was you who molested a cocktail waitress you don't stand a chance.

You keep saying why you got banned doesn't matter. Well you got banned and frankly I don't think it was over bottles of water. And if it wasn't about card counting or AP play it seems to me your head is in the sand and you've got a problem.

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IIRC he said he thinks it was mistaken identity. Perhaps they banned someone that had a similar name and birth-date, or there was someone that looked like him.

Casino's are a business. They can deny service to anyone.

I don't understand why you can not state what they accuse you of doing if you did not do it?

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Casino's are a business. They can deny service to anyone.

I don't understand why you can not state what they accuse you of doing if you did not do it?

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He probably has a clause saying something like,"Don't tell anyone the specifics, or we will sue you!"

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

And does Dan really need our advice? He knows when he needs a lawyer. He knows what he can handle on his own.

I think the whole thing is BS. He's playing us to get traffic. A copycat of the Dancer blog.

I'm really done now.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

And does Dan really need our advice? He knows when he needs a lawyer. He knows what he can handle on his own.

I think the whole thing is BS. He's playing us to get traffic. A copycat of the Dancer blog.

I'm really done now.

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To me, it sounds like you were out of pieces playing Dreidel and nobody was willing to give you a loan :(

It is proven that the first player to spin has an unfair advantage.
The last player gets the worst of it.

Did you know they have a version of Dreidel called No Limit Texas Dreidel?
A cross between Traditional Dreidel and Texas Hold'em Poker, invented by a Judaica company called ModernTribe.

Of course, someone who witnesses 18 yos in a row doesn't need to trouble themselves with math or odds.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

I'm really done now.

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Monet just gave some great advice without the specifics, so it can be done. Please re-read Monet's post.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

I'm really done now.

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Monet just gave some great advice without the specifics, so it can be done. Please re-read Monet's post.

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I'm absolutely floored that Dan who is a WSOP bracelet winner, and a celebrity commentator on the Internet and I also believe on ESPN, is unable to clear up a case of mistaken identity? What's up with that?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

I'm really done now.

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Monet just gave some great advice without the specifics, so it can be done. Please re-read Monet's post.

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I'm absolutely floored that Dan who is a WSOP bracelet winner, and a celebrity commentator on the Internet and I also believe on ESPN, is unable to clear up a case of mistaken identity? What's up with that?

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I used to think Kewlj was the worst at announcing he was done with this forum and then coming back, but you my friend take the cake...make up your mind or don’t say anything at all numbnuts

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan doesn't need to identify the property but without knowing what the charge is how can anyone give advice.

I'm really done now.

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Monet just gave some great advice without the specifics, so it can be done. Please re-read Monet's post.

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I'm absolutely floored that Dan who is a WSOP bracelet winner, and a celebrity commentator on the Internet and I also believe on ESPN, is unable to clear up a case of mistaken identity? What's up with that?

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Would you ask Einstein to perform an appendectomy on you if you needed your appendix removed (if he were alive) ? We live in an era of specialization, so it is entirely appropriate for an expert in one area to ask experts in another. What gets dangerous is when an expert believes that he or she is an expert in other areas or when people accept as Gospel the advice of an expert in one area when he or she gives advice in another area. Dan has avoided this pitfall that many experts fall into by realizing this.

I am taking your questions above at face value, but I think they are really motivated by the forum sparring you and Dan have been having.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Monet just gave some great advice without the specifics, so it can be done. Please re-read Monet's post.

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I'm absolutely floored that Dan who is a WSOP bracelet winner, and a celebrity commentator on the Internet and I also believe on ESPN, is unable to clear up a case of mistaken identity? What's up with that?

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Would you ask Einstein to perform an appendectomy on you if you needed your appendix removed (if he were alive) ? We live in an era of specialization, so it is entirely appropriate for an expert in one area to ask experts in another. What gets dangerous is when an expert believes that he or she is an expert in other areas or when people accept as Gospel the advice of an expert in one area when he or she gives advice in another area. Dan has avoided this pitfall that many experts fall into by realizing this.

I am taking your questions above at face value, but I think they are really motivated by the forum sparring you and Dan have been having.

---

If Dan were a nobody I can understand how he might be a victim of false identification. But we all know who Dan is, don't we?

Dan, why have you been unable to clear up a case of false identification?

Tableplay, isn't it strange how when I criticized Dan for allowing the penis thread to continue, and how I criticized Dan for allowing Rob to post that crap about blow jobs from other's wives, daughters and mothers, that I am criticized as the bad guy?

Go ahead, call me the bad guy. But I'm standing firm on this. There is no place on this forum or any forum for Rob Singer to post that crap and Dan should have stopped it.

And Rob... does your wife know what you posted about getting blow jobs from the wives, daughters and mothers of the members of the web forum where you spend so much time?

Shame on all of you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RS__

No idea what happened (in reality or allegedly), but I suspect when Dan makes the complaint to gaming, they're going to say something along the lines of, "The casino is a private business and can trespass anyone for any reason [other than fed. discrimination stuff], so you're still going to be trespassed. Furthermore, they also have the right to revoke your club card and any accrued or future benefits."

I'm not entirely sure how legal it is for them to take away your points and whatnot. I'd say that's at least somewhat iffy. AFAICT, you don't have a stone-cold lock of a case. Even with a case where you're 100% in the right, still probably a coin flip as far as whether they (gaming) side with you.


This isn't to say you shouldn't file a complaint, but the reality is, without knowing what actually happened, there's not much anyone can say as far as how it should be treated going forward.



And yeah, the more you play non-poker AP stuff in a casino, the more you're gonna get fucked by the casino.

---

Dan's has stated his only reason for going to Gaming is to get the money for the points like Dancer did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm absolutely floored that Dan who is a WSOP bracelet winner, and a celebrity commentator on the Internet and I also believe on ESPN, is unable to clear up a case of mistaken identity? What's up with that?

---

Would you ask Einstein to perform an appendectomy on you if you needed your appendix removed (if he were alive) ? We live in an era of specialization, so it is entirely appropriate for an expert in one area to ask experts in another. What gets dangerous is when an expert believes that he or she is an expert in other areas or when people accept as Gospel the advice of an expert in one area when he or she gives advice in another area. Dan has avoided this pitfall that many experts fall into by realizing this.

I am taking your questions above at face value, but I think they are really motivated by the forum sparring you and Dan have been having.

---

If Dan were a nobody I can understand how he might be a victim of false identification. But we all know who Dan is, don't we?

Dan, why have you been unable to clear up a case of false identification?

Tableplay, isn't it strange how when I criticized Dan for allowing the penis thread to continue, and how I criticized Dan for allowing Rob to post that crap about blow jobs from other's wives, daughters and mothers, that I am criticized as the bad guy?

Go ahead, call me the bad guy. But I'm standing firm on this. There is no place on this forum or any forum for Rob Singer to post that crap and Dan should have stopped it.

And Rob... does your wife know what you posted about getting blow jobs from the wives, daughters and mothers of the members of the web forum where you spend so much time?

Shame on all of you.

---

You seem very upset and bitter...would it have anything to do with the online pimp slapping Dan gave you yesterday?

I give alan's xmas morning proclamation that "I'm really done now" the same level of credibility as his claim of seeing 18 yo's in a row.

Some guys just need the spotlight to shine on 'em, no matter what it takes.

Which is fine: I've learned over the years to suffer fools gladly: it makes life go easier.

I think the only way Dan is going to get their attention is with a letter to them by a lawyer. They don't need a reason to 86 anyone. They can just say "we don't want your business." And I'm surprised they all don't use that simple statement everytime to avoid any legal complications. If a reason is given and that reason is false then I believe there is legal recourse. It may not get one reinstated to the casino but it can clear one's name of a false accusation and may even be grounds for a lawsuit.

Dan, I think your best bet is to contact Robert Nersesian.

It would be interesting if Dan could somehow claim "discrimination" against the casino, assuming he can somehow show he's in a protected class, e.g. gay, minority, handicapped, etc.

Trust me, I'm done. But I'm not going to let someone attribute quotes to me that were made by Rob Singer as was done in another thread and when my good buddy Dan (who I gave this forum to free of charge so he could preserve his sage advice about CET and life in Vegas) gets in trouble with a casino because of false identification I'm going to help him out.

Gosh, only false identification? Can you believe that with all of the sophisticated security systems casinos have today Dan, who has been on TV and a known Vegas player for decades, was misidentified?

If Dan is a victim of false ID what chance does Monty fromm Michigan have?

Yes I'm going to help Dan out. But nothing more.

Once you dip your toe in the water it's tough not to want to jump back in the pool.

You NEED this board, alan: it's pretty obvious.

The fact that we aren't getting the full, truthful story is a huge red flag.

I thought Dan was not going to disclose the reason why? Where was it said it was false ID? I think someone just assumed that could be a reason...

See Dan's post #15 in which he said: "I was banned for a strange thing which I didn't do. It must have been a case of mistaken identity or something."

That isn't stating exactly what it was. Very well could have done something unknowingly. Maybe it was done while his card was not inserted and he makes sure not to do it while the card is inserted?

Is there something in the players club rules stating that you must use your players card if you have one? IE. You use your card when playing video poker, but you don't use your card when going to the BJ pit because you are tagged as a counter and don't want that flag to come up?

BadBeet I find it strange that Dan is not responding... and I am. So, in Dan's original post he wrote:

"A certain Vegas casino has banned me from their property as a result of something I did not do. This isn't one of these cases here an AP gets caught APing, and then makes up lies that he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary. I was accused of something totally off-the-wall, which doesn't even involve casino play."

I guess we forget that taking too much TP and soaps from the room attendants carts to add to ones EV is frowned upon.

Still curious as to what they claim he did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

I guess we forget that taking too much TP and soaps from the room attendants carts to add to ones EV is frowned upon.

Still curious as to what they claim he did.

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I am only interested in how many points he lost?
Must be more than Dancer!?
I think Dancer only lost 1500 in Free Play or Cash Back which is a lot but not enough for me to get crazy about.
Didn't Dancer let the money stay on his card for a few weeks?
Mistake Number One... Never let your Free Play or Cash Back build up without taking it out ASAP!
I once had 2200 in Comp taken away from myself.
I didn't even bother with it.
I just never went back in that Casino for over 2 years now.
Eventually I will go back and get reinstated but I could care less about the points or comp or cash back.
That was my fault for letting it sit on the account... I know better.
Comp Glitches happen every year or so... I'll find another.

Remember when Mission146 went to court about getting barred LOL?

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/been-backed-off/

The Judge yelled at him many times stating that he was Guilty, Guilty, Guilty!!
That kind of crazy cracks me up!

Haha... wow I never saw that before thanks!

I dont give my card to others to play. Everytime I put it on a host comes and bugs me...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Haha... wow I never saw that before thanks!

I dont give my card to others to play. Everytime I put it on a host comes and bugs me...

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You can't fight City Hall.
Katy Bar the Door!

Over on Poker Fraud Alert Dan said he would reveal everything once he files his complaint with Gaming.

I understand everyone's curiosity about this. However, I have my reasons for not revealing details until the Gaming case is filed.

To answer a few questions...

No, there's no way it was something I did and forgot about. After a number of phone calls, I got someone to tell me the reason I was banned. It was something I did not do, and could not have accidentally done, either.

I'll give you a hypothetical example.

Let's say you were banned from a casino for allegedly pulling down your pants and shitting on the casino floor.

However, you know for a fact that you never did this, and you don't drink or do drugs, so you know you didn't do it while in an inebriated state.

You tell the casino, "I absolutely never did this -- here or anywhere. Can you please check the camera again and you'll see it wasn't me?"

The investigator agrees to recheck everything and get back to you. At this point, you're confident your name will be cleared once they look again and see it wasn't you who did the floor shitting. But they never call you back, and when you press the matter further, they won't answer you.

That's basically what's happening to me here, except it doesn't involve an accusation of shitting on the floor. However, the real accusation is something equally crazy which I never would have done, and which could easily be disproven if they check their evidence.


Regarding whether I could claim any form of discrimination, I couldn't. I'm a heterosexual white male in my mid-40s. The only "minority" class I belong to is being Jewish, but there's no way that's going to fly as a reason I was banned. To show this, I would have to prove that other Jews were unfairly banned, which the casino could easily counter. There was no discrimination here, and I couldn't frame it as such.

I do not believe an attorney could help me here. Even if the ban was a case of mistaken identity (which I still think it is), this was the casino's own internal decision to ban me. They have not published nor shared these allegations with anyone else, to my knowledge. Furthermore, I was never detained, nor did I even have contact with security. I heard about the ban over the phone when I tried to make a reservation.

Regarding the points, they aren't worth as much as Dancer's $1200. However, it's the principle of the matter. I waited to file a gaming complaint until I could deal with the casino in a calm, reasonable fashion and try to resolve it among ourselves. They shut me down and have put me on ignore mode. Now I have no choice but to pursue this with Gaming to get the points owed to me.

I agree with Dancer's general view on the matter. You try to resolve it with the casino first, but if your ban remains permanent, at that point you go to Gaming and claim what's rightfully yours.

It is absolutely absurd that a case of mistaken identity can't be resolved. The Nevada Gaming Commission is not likely to get involved because you said gaming was not involved. I don't think they would be involved in a hotel matter.

You have two choices as I see it. Get a lawyer involved who will bring a libel suit or go 100% public and ask for public support.

If it really is a case of mistaken identity I would call their management as the producer and host of my TV show. And since it is MY show I could put your story on TV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I understand everyone's curiosity about this. However, I have my reasons for not revealing details until the Gaming case is filed.

To answer a few questions...

No, there's no way it was something I did and forgot about. After a number of phone calls, I got someone to tell me the reason I was banned. It was something I did not do, and could not have accidentally done, either.

I'll give you a hypothetical example.

Let's say you were banned from a casino for allegedly pulling down your pants and shitting on the casino floor.

However, you know for a fact that you never did this, and you don't drink or do drugs, so you know you didn't do it while in an inebriated state.

You tell the casino, "I absolutely never did this -- here or anywhere. Can you please check the camera again and you'll see it wasn't me?"

The investigator agrees to recheck everything and get back to you. At this point, you're confident your name will be cleared once they look again and see it wasn't you who did the floor shitting. But they never call you back, and when you press the matter further, they won't answer you.

That's basically what's happening to me here, except it doesn't involve an accusation of shitting on the floor. However, the real accusation is something equally crazy which I never would have done, and which could easily be disproven if they check their evidence.


Regarding whether I could claim any form of discrimination, I couldn't. I'm a heterosexual white male in my mid-40s. The only "minority" class I belong to is being Jewish, but there's no way that's going to fly as a reason I was banned. To show this, I would have to prove that other Jews were unfairly banned, which the casino could easily counter. There was no discrimination here, and I couldn't frame it as such.

I do not believe an attorney could help me here. Even if the ban was a case of mistaken identity (which I still think it is), this was the casino's own internal decision to ban me. They have not published nor shared these allegations with anyone else, to my knowledge. Furthermore, I was never detained, nor did I even have contact with security. I heard about the ban over the phone when I tried to make a reservation.

Regarding the points, they aren't worth as much as Dancer's $1200. However, it's the principle of the matter. I waited to file a gaming complaint until I could deal with the casino in a calm, reasonable fashion and try to resolve it among ourselves. They shut me down and have put me on ignore mode. Now I have no choice but to pursue this with Gaming to get the points owed to me.

I agree with Dancer's general view on the matter. You try to resolve it with the casino first, but if your ban remains permanent, at that point you go to Gaming and claim what's rightfully yours.

---

Let me guess. They think you stole someone's TITO?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I understand everyone's curiosity about this. However, I have my reasons for not revealing details until the Gaming case is filed.

To answer a few questions...

No, there's no way it was something I did and forgot about. After a number of phone calls, I got someone to tell me the reason I was banned. It was something I did not do, and could not have accidentally done, either.

I'll give you a hypothetical example.

Let's say you were banned from a casino for allegedly pulling down your pants and shitting on the casino floor.

However, you know for a fact that you never did this, and you don't drink or do drugs, so you know you didn't do it while in an inebriated state.

You tell the casino, "I absolutely never did this -- here or anywhere. Can you please check the camera again and you'll see it wasn't me?"

The investigator agrees to recheck everything and get back to you. At this point, you're confident your name will be cleared once they look again and see it wasn't you who did the floor shitting. But they never call you back, and when you press the matter further, they won't answer you.

That's basically what's happening to me here, except it doesn't involve an accusation of shitting on the floor. However, the real accusation is something equally crazy which I never would have done, and which could easily be disproven if they check their evidence.


Regarding whether I could claim any form of discrimination, I couldn't. I'm a heterosexual white male in my mid-40s. The only "minority" class I belong to is being Jewish, but there's no way that's going to fly as a reason I was banned. To show this, I would have to prove that other Jews were unfairly banned, which the casino could easily counter. There was no discrimination here, and I couldn't frame it as such.

I do not believe an attorney could help me here. Even if the ban was a case of mistaken identity (which I still think it is), this was the casino's own internal decision to ban me. They have not published nor shared these allegations with anyone else, to my knowledge. Furthermore, I was never detained, nor did I even have contact with security. I heard about the ban over the phone when I tried to make a reservation.

Regarding the points, they aren't worth as much as Dancer's $1200. However, it's the principle of the matter. I waited to file a gaming complaint until I could deal with the casino in a calm, reasonable fashion and try to resolve it among ourselves. They shut me down and have put me on ignore mode. Now I have no choice but to pursue this with Gaming to get the points owed to me.

I agree with Dancer's general view on the matter. You try to resolve it with the casino first, but if your ban remains permanent, at that point you go to Gaming and claim what's rightfully yours.

---

Have you formally requested your points in the form of a letter or verbally. I would document this first before you go to gaming. Non gaming banning and denial of points are two asaparate issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

... what's rightfully yours.

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The older one gets the more one laughs at this line of thinking.
I'm gonna get those bastards! Take back what is rightfully mine.
80,000 points which translates to 800 dollars!
Justice will prevail!

Remember Abraham and Lots quarrel about "what is rightfully mine?"
Didn't work out so great for Lot.
He ended up in a Cave having his two daughters get him drunk and force incest on him.
Of course after Fire and Brimstone destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
To make matters worse his wife turned into a pillar of salt!
Sarah shouldn't of been looking back to what was rightfully hers!

Abraham had his problems as well screwing around with his handmaid.

"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." - Jehovah -
This is from the womb mind you... talk about bad odds!

It is fun to get older and look back and see what we wasted our time on.
Could of spent a few more days or hours helping someone instead of fighting the power.
I could continue but why bother... it is all in vain.
See you all soon in the grave where all these matters will not matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

It is absolutely absurd that a case of mistaken identity can't be resolved. The Nevada Gaming Commission is not likely to get involved because you said gaming was not involved. I don't think they would be involved in a hotel matter.

You have two choices as I see it. Get a lawyer involved who will bring a libel suit or go 100% public and ask for public support.

If it really is a case of mistaken identity I would call their management as the producer and host of my TV show. And since it is MY show I could put your story on TV.

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I don't know if it's mistaken identity. That's my guess. They accused me of something I absolutely didn't do, and then promised to re-investigate. Then they refused to talk to me again, and told another employee that the matter was closed, and that I "understood everything" (which was totally false, and not at all the way our last conversation ended).

There is no libel here. Again, there have been no public statements against me. Internal false accusations do not constitute libel. I have no damages aside from not being able to enter their casino!

The alleged incident did not involve gaming. However, the NGC will be involved because they illegally confiscated my points. Why don't you understand that?

I will be glad to appear on your TV show about this once I make the details public.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jpfromla

Have you formally requested your points in the form of a letter or verbally. I would document this first before you go to gaming. Non gaming banning and denial of points are two asaparate issues.

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I'm going to do this prior to going to Gaming. I think there's a high chance they will refuse to give me the points, but yes, you're correct that I need to do this and document it prior to making a Gaming complaint.

Dan my guess is that if they refuse to reinvestigate you either pissed them off or they are convinced you are in the wrong. In the spirit of this forum I think this really is a coin flip but heads you lost and tails you lost.

Now the question is how much damage has been done. So several questions:

How much money is involved? Please let it be a cash value of at least $1,000. If you tell us you're going to file a claim for $100 you're wasting everyone's time.

What casino is it? Is it a casino you need to go to again because of its proximity to the WSOP? Or is it some small casino you visited for one night because you didn't want to burn your comps somewhere else?

Now you're saying it may not actually be mistaken identity. Well get your story straight. If you can't get it straight here you're not going to get it straight with a formal legal complaint.

Are you on a fishing expedition here looking for the "right circumstances" for your nebulous claim?

Details Dan or drop it. Waffling has no credibility.

I dont think they need to give you a reason. They are not obligated to do so just as they are not obligated to let everyone gamble or shit on the floor in their establishment.

Now, if you palmed a $100 chip from a roulette game with your mates while drunk and it fell into your girly pants, then I understand not wanting to tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Is there something in the players club rules stating that you must use your players card if you have one?

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Badbeet, I think at virtually all casinos (that have a player's club) you are not required to use your card if you have one. If any forum members know of exceptions to this I would be very appreciative of links to such rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Is there something in the players club rules stating that you must use your players card if you have one?

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Badbeet, I think at virtually all casinos (that have a player's club) you are not required to use your card if you have one. If any forum members know of exceptions to this I would be very appreciative of links to such rules.

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I've heard stories of in Black Jack pits them requiring a card or ID before taking action...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Tableplay, isn't it strange how when I criticized Dan for allowing the penis thread to continue, and how I criticized Dan for allowing Rob to post that crap about blow jobs from other's wives, daughters and mothers, that I am criticized as the bad guy?

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I am being critical of your suggestion that Dan should somehow be an expert in navigating the complexity of casino grievances just because he is an expert live poker player, not of you personally. Also, Monet proved that useful advice can be given despite a lack of specifics (again just go back and read Monet's post if you don't believe me) when you stated that it was impossible to do so without specifics. Again I am not being critical of you or calling you out as a "bad guy" - just this statement itself where you threw your hands up in the air and said it was impossible to give advice when there was some ambiguity involved.

Personally, I think it all boils down to excuses by the casino because Dan is considered an advantage player by this casino's management - they just don't want to admit that they don't want to take action from successful players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadBeet

Is there something in the players club rules stating that you must use your players card if you have one?

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Badbeet, I think at virtually all casinos (that have a player's club) you are not required to use your card if you have one. If any forum members know of exceptions to this I would be very appreciative of links to such rules.

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I've heard stories of in Black Jack pits them requiring a card or ID before taking action...

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That sounds reasonable, however that is a discretionary decision by the pit boss, rather than a formal player club's rule probably.

Dan has said this has nothing to do with casino play or being an AP. Now, how can anyone give any opinion on what Dan should do?

No chips were palmed. Players card is a non issue. Even mistaken identity is now questionable. Even the amount of money involved is unknown.

Is this a joke?

Fast forward to 8:10 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhQmsp4OvnQ

Made an "informational" call to Gaming tonight. I did not file any complaints yet, but rather just wanted to figure out what I needed to do from this point forward.

I was told to do the following:

1) On a non-holiday weekday from 8am-5pm, call the casino and ask for the highest person I'm allowed to talk to in the marketing department. Formally request the redemption of the points.

2a) If they agree to redeem the points at a level I find satisfactory, then go ahead and do so, and the matter is done.

2b) If they refuse to redeem the points (most likely), then get that person's full name, and immediately call Gaming.

3) Gaming will immediately come down and meet me and take a report. Then they will go down to the casino and question the person I spoke to.

4) If Gaming determines that I am owed money for the points, they will pressure the casino to pay me, and will start an investigation if necessary.

It was confirmed that the casino can ban me at any time for any reason, even if the reason is erroneous or I was wrongfully blamed for someone else's violation.

However, it was also confirmed that in "most cases", if I earned points and am not allowed to redeem them, the casino must pay me the cash equivalent value for them.