Advantage Play -- Obiously Real

As a parting gift:

The Wise Guys Contest cumulative season record for 49 experienced sports handicappers, at least half of whom are well known in sports handicapping circles:

892 Wins 773 Losses Against the Spread (ATS)

Needless to say, the contest was public, with everyone's selections posted mid-week.

This 892-773 ATS record is 53.6%, well above the 52.4% needed to win versus the standard 11/10. However, this does not tell the entire story. These handicappers were all locked into a single Monday line, which was disadvantageous in that (A) nobody could shop for numbers and (B) underdog players were at a distinct disadvantage as favorite money is more common during the week. Had the players been allowed to either shop for numbers or wait until later in the week, the cumulative record would have improved by a minimum of 15-20 games. It may possibly have improved by much, much more.

In addition, most players have access to something better than 11/10. My standard wagers are made at -108. Various books offer -105 on particular days or for particular hours. So the 52.4% number often quoted as necessary to win is actually way too high. Some books also offer rebates on losses every six months.

To the extent that experienced sports handicappers are "APs," one can put to bed the idea that "APing" is some kind of myth.

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Originally Posted by redietz

To the extent that experienced sports handicappers are "APs," one can put to bed the idea that "APing" is some kind of myth.

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This is the exact type of dumb approach that discredits AP claims. No one ever said Aping is some kind of a myth. We’ve all read about Billy Walters, Phil Ivey, Don Johnson, etc. These are all well known advantage player’s that netted millions in profits on AP plays.

Netting millions of dollars on an AP play is great till it’s exposed and over. If these people make a run for it with their millions and don’t end up in jail or broke looking for another golden goose by the time they reach their golden years, then good for them.

I’m also not talking about two-bit AP’ing traveling all over the country etching out a livable existence for a loner. Being forced to still having to work casinos to survive in your golden years in my eyes is a sad ending, especially after spending most of your adult life in casinos. No different than being forced to work your job till you die to survive.

Having a winning year or a winning season only means just that, you had a winning year or a winning season. Be it luck or be it brains, you need a hell of a lot more winning years or seasons then losing ones to raise a healthy family and be a able to retire safely. When gambling is involved that result is never confirmed fact till it becomes a fact, never knowing for certain the next result. Calculators may say one thing but it still has to happen.

Billy Walters, I think it’s safe enough to say he made it to retirement with plenty of money, as long as he gets out of jail. Certainly there are several more I and most of you don’t even know about that made it, thanks to the good ole days in casino AP. But I’d be willing to guess that list is very selective and short.

With casinos investing in technology and getting schooled on AP plays, you could only guess AP’ing will become harder, if not to petty to make a living out of it.

Let me know where Phil Ivey and Don Johnson or any other self-proclaimed AP’er on these forums claiming healthy success and fortune today are when they reach their golden age securely with enough money to keep them healthy and safe till they die. Then you could brag about your winning years or seasons from AP'ing.

If you (Reditz) lost all you won this season next season would it be safe to say AP’ing is a myth?

"As a parting gift" Think about what you’re saying before you blow smoke up your own ass.

It's safe to say there are different levels of successful APs. Some people are very happy and successful getting $40,000 or $60,000 a year being an AP while others need the same amount of income PLUS health and retirement benefits. No one can pass judgment. You do what's best for you and you wish others the best for what they do.

I belong to a big union, SAG-AFTRA, in which there are people who earn $3,000 a year and people who earn $3-million or more to shoot a movie in two months time. What you appreciate is that regardless of the income level they all have talent and they all have their levels of success.

If an AP tells me he is successful earning $50,000 a year without benefits I wish him the best for his success.

Yeah, but why do they seek THIS way of life, as opposed to selling out and working for The Man?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

It's safe to say there are different levels of successful APs. Some people are very happy and successful getting $40,000 or $60,000 a year being an AP while others need the same amount of income PLUS health and retirement benefits. No one can pass judgment. You do what's best for you and you wish others the best for what they do.

I belong to a big union, SAG-AFTRA, in which there are people who earn $3,000 a year and people who earn $3-million or more to shoot a movie in two months time. What you appreciate is that regardless of the income level they all have talent and they all have their levels of success.

If an AP tells me he is successful earning $50,000 a year without benefits I wish him the best for his success.

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Benefits are not free for anyone. If you are the company owner then you pay cash for them. If you are an employee then you pay for them with your labor. None of it is free. Alan, you guys always talk about benefits like it's free candy. It's not. You pay for it.

Alan, here's a question to ponder. Rob says he made 100K for ten years but through creative accounting payed no income tax. Would he have been better off to show a 30K profit and stick it all in a tax free retirement account--which any professional gambler is eligible to do?

No one said benefits are free. But be honest, how many pro gamblers have retirement accounts? Mickey if you were to quit work now what would you get each month from your retirement account? Yes, you can include social security.

From CNBC:

"A shocking 21 percent of Americans have nothing at all saved for the future, and another 10 percent have less than $5,000 socked away for their golden years, the study found."

Now are you going to tell me that gamblers beat this?

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by redietz

To the extent that experienced sports handicappers are "APs," one can put to bed the idea that "APing" is some kind of myth.

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This is the exact type of dumb approach that discredits AP claims. No one ever said Aping is some kind of a myth. We’ve all read about Billy Walters, Phil Ivey, Don Johnson, etc. These are all well known advantage player’s that netted millions in profits on AP plays.

Netting millions of dollars on an AP play is great till it’s exposed and over. If these people make a run for it with their millions and don’t end up in jail or broke looking for another golden goose by the time they reach their golden years, then good for them.

I’m also not talking about two-bit AP’ing traveling all over the country etching out a livable existence for a loner. Being forced to still having to work casinos to survive in your golden years in my eyes is a sad ending, especially after spending most of your adult life in casinos. No different than being forced to work your job till you die to survive.

Having a winning year or a winning season only means just that, you had a winning year or a winning season. Be it luck or be it brains, you need a hell of a lot more winning years or seasons then losing ones to raise a healthy family and be a able to retire safely. When gambling is involved that result is never confirmed fact till it becomes a fact, never knowing for certain the next result. Calculators may say one thing but it still has to happen.

Billy Walters, I think it’s safe enough to say he made it to retirement with plenty of money, as long as he gets out of jail. Certainly there are several more I and most of you don’t even know about that made it, thanks to the good ole days in casino AP. But I’d be willing to guess that list is very selective and short.

With casinos investing in technology and getting schooled on AP plays, you could only guess AP’ing will become harder, if not to petty to make a living out of it.

Let me know where Phil Ivey and Don Johnson or any other self-proclaimed AP’er on these forums claiming healthy success and fortune today are when they reach their golden age securely with enough money to keep them healthy and safe till they die. Then you could brag about your winning years or seasons from AP'ing.

If you (Reditz) lost all you won this season next season would it be safe to say AP’ing is a myth?

"As a parting gift" Think about what you’re saying before you blow smoke up your own ass.

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With the current spread of sportsbetting across the USA I'm willing to bet Redietz wishes he was in his 20's again. Profitable sportsbettors have been around since the invention of the money line and point spread. There will be profitable sportsbettors in the world a thousand years from now. And it has been exposed for just as long. So your hypothesis, blackhole, doesn't carry water.

Billy Walters is 73 years old and just went to jail. Why didn't he retire from it at an earlier age? One reason and one reason only. He didn't want to. He did not voluntarily retire from sportsbetting. The government temporarily retired him. And for all we know he may still be doing it from prison. So, blackhole, your hypothesis that people have to keep doing it into old age doesn't hold water. People do this sort of thing BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.

I can go back home and live very comfortably sitting in a rocking chair for the rest of my life anytime I want to. BH, who in the hell wants to go sit in a rocking chair and bitch and moan their years away about others like you do? That's for bitter old fools like you. I'm active and I plan to stay that way as long as I can. I enjoy what I do.

Remember the saying, BH. Those that can DO. Those that can't criticize. As a parting gift think about what you are saying before you blow smoke up your own ass.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

No one said benefits are free. But be honest, how many pro gamblers have retirement accounts? Mickey if you were to quit work now what would you get each month from your retirement account? Yes, you can include social security.

From CNBC:

"A shocking 21 percent of Americans have nothing at all saved for the future, and another 10 percent have less than $5,000 socked away for their golden years, the study found."

Now are you going to tell me that gamblers beat this?

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Absolutely. Which would you rather have? A million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash? I still have my bankroll whether I retire from gambling or not.

Which would you rather have... a million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash?

If you really had a million dollars you'd know the retirement account would be better.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Which would you rather have... a million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash?

If you really had a million dollars you'd know the retirement account would be better.

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You need to define what a million dollar retirement account is, in order for someone to answer the question. Otherwise it could be one in the same with the cash.

The typical forum custodian Mickey response above trying to sweep up everything anyone says he doesn’t want to hear or agrees with and then twist it around to fit his narration.

First of all, I never said sports betting winners and let’s add losers were going anywhere. No one here personally cares how old you think Reditz wishes he was. You don’t know a single financial fact about Reditz. In fact, you don’t know a single financial fact about anyone on these forums who you conveniently back up and collude with via PM, just to promote your own ego.

Billy Walters successfully built a sports-betting empire in the ole days. I’m certain the casinos are being more cautious now after learning how he pulled it off. Keeping a watchful eye on big bettors, limits, modern technology, just to name a few precautions. Casinos are billion-dollar industries all based on offering games they expect to eventually win. Don’t worry they will fix any leaks their concerned about and even get to evict anyone they want at will who they think is part of the problem.

For some reason Billy Walters took his profits and started to diversify all over the place. It’s during this stage he decided to fuck with the big boys on Wall Street. Not only did they crush him, he ended up in prison. I doubt he could ever end up broke, and gave him credit for one of the best gambling AP moves ever.

Casinos are cleaning up the good ole days step by step. Changing game rules around, paying attention to marketing schemes, comps, etc.etc. I think in the near future the only AP’s still working casinos will be the AP’s they don’t care about. Like Mickey.

Don’t forget, they still want and need AP’s telling the world how they could take advantage of them. Hell, they even sell AP books, cards, seminars, magazines in every room, at their casinos telling people how to beat them. Go fiqure…

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Which would you rather have... a million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash?

If you really had a million dollars you'd know the retirement account would be better.

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Retirement accounts run out on people. A million cash is worth a lot more than a million in payments over 30 years.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

It's safe to say there are different levels of successful APs. Some people are very happy and successful getting $40,000 or $60,000 a year being an AP while others need the same amount of income PLUS health and retirement benefits. No one can pass judgment. You do what's best for you and you wish others the best for what they do.

I belong to a big union, SAG-AFTRA, in which there are people who earn $3,000 a year and people who earn $3-million or more to shoot a movie in two months time. What you appreciate is that regardless of the income level they all have talent and they all have their levels of success.

If an AP tells me he is successful earning $50,000 a year without benefits I wish him the best for his success.

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Benefits are not free for anyone. If you are the company owner then you pay cash for them. If you are an employee then you pay for them with your labor. None of it is free. Alan, you guys always talk about benefits like it's free candy. It's not. You pay for it.

Alan, here's a question to ponder. Rob says he made 100K for ten years but through creative accounting payed no income tax. Would he have been better off to show a 30K profit and stick it all in a tax free retirement account--which any professional gambler is eligible to do?

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Leave it to a slug like mickey to give excuses for being on the government dole and always having been a lazy white man that never worked.

And get your lies straight. I netted about $94k/yr., I wrote almost all of it off using expenses that I would have incurred whether I was a professional gambler or not--thru creative and LEGAL accounting because I was also a writer and consultant--and we certainly did pay income taxes on investment and other income a bum like you'd never comprehend, as well as on my wife's work income.

I can see why you drink. You have this idea that you're some kind of rogue expert on everything gambling, and because you like to fantasize about yourself being a "gambling outlaw" of sorts, you tell yourself the 8 ap's who post here are as impressed with your slew of tall tales as you think they are with kew's spews.

Wise up fool.

Attention mickeycrimm and MaxPen. If you think think cash is better than money in a retirement account explain that to OJ. Also explain that to your accountant who tries to minimize your taxes every year.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Which would you rather have... a million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash?

If you really had a million dollars you'd know the retirement account would be better.

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Retirement accounts run out on people. A million cash is worth a lot more than a million in payments over 30 years.

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Is there any limits to how dumb this dropout is?

He'll never be mistaken for a Financial Advisor, that's for sure..... :)

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

It's safe to say there are different levels of successful APs. Some people are very happy and successful getting $40,000 or $60,000 a year being an AP while others need the same amount of income PLUS health and retirement benefits. No one can pass judgment. You do what's best for you and you wish others the best for what they do.

I belong to a big union, SAG-AFTRA, in which there are people who earn $3,000 a year and people who earn $3-million or more to shoot a movie in two months time. What you appreciate is that regardless of the income level they all have talent and they all have their levels of success.

If an AP tells me he is successful earning $50,000 a year without benefits I wish him the best for his success.

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Benefits are not free for anyone. If you are the company owner then you pay cash for them. If you are an employee then you pay for them with your labor. None of it is free. Alan, you guys always talk about benefits like it's free candy. It's not. You pay for it.

Alan, here's a question to ponder. Rob says he made 100K for ten years but through creative accounting payed no income tax. Would he have been better off to show a 30K profit and stick it all in a tax free retirement account--which any professional gambler is eligible to do?

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Leave it to a slug like mickey to give excuses for being on the government dole and always having been a lazy white man that never worked.

And get your lies straight. I netted about $94k/yr., I wrote almost all of it off using expenses that I would have incurred whether I was a professional gambler or not--thru creative and LEGAL accounting because I was also a writer and consultant--and we certainly did pay income taxes on investment and other income a bum like you'd never comprehend, as well as on my wife's work income.

I can see why you drink. You have this idea that you're some kind of rogue expert on everything gambling, and because you like to fantasize about yourself being a "gambling outlaw" of sorts, you tell yourself the 8 ap's who post here are as impressed with your slew of tall tales as you think they are with kew's spews.

Wise up fool.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Attention mickeycrimm and MaxPen. If you think think cash is better than money in a retirement account explain that to OJ. Also explain that to your accountant who tries to minimize your taxes every year.

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Is that why lottery winners are advised to take, and do take, the lump sum, which works out to be about a third of what the payments would be? What priority do you think Warren Buffet gives to retirement accounts on his investment list?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

It's safe to say there are different levels of successful APs. Some people are very happy and successful getting $40,000 or $60,000 a year being an AP while others need the same amount of income PLUS health and retirement benefits. No one can pass judgment. You do what's best for you and you wish others the best for what they do.

I belong to a big union, SAG-AFTRA, in which there are people who earn $3,000 a year and people who earn $3-million or more to shoot a movie in two months time. What you appreciate is that regardless of the income level they all have talent and they all have their levels of success.

If an AP tells me he is successful earning $50,000 a year without benefits I wish him the best for his success.

---

Benefits are not free for anyone. If you are the company owner then you pay cash for them. If you are an employee then you pay for them with your labor. None of it is free. Alan, you guys always talk about benefits like it's free candy. It's not. You pay for it.

Alan, here's a question to ponder. Rob says he made 100K for ten years but through creative accounting payed no income tax. Would he have been better off to show a 30K profit and stick it all in a tax free retirement account--which any professional gambler is eligible to do?

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Leave it to a slug like mickey to give excuses for being on the government dole and always having been a lazy white man that never worked.

And get your lies straight. I netted about $94k/yr., I wrote almost all of it off using expenses that I would have incurred whether I was a professional gambler or not--thru creative and LEGAL accounting because I was also a writer and consultant--and we certainly did pay income taxes on investment and other income a bum like you'd never comprehend, as well as on my wife's work income.

I can see why you drink. You have this idea that you're some kind of rogue expert on everything gambling, and because you like to fantasize about yourself being a "gambling outlaw" of sorts, you tell yourself the 8 ap's who post here are as impressed with your slew of tall tales as you think they are with kew's spews.

Wise up fool.

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Well, I have been on GWAE twice. How many times have you been on the show?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Attention mickeycrimm and MaxPen. If you think think cash is better than money in a retirement account explain that to OJ. Also explain that to your accountant who tries to minimize your taxes every year.

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You still haven't defined your "million dollar retirement account". If you could do that your question could be answered.
There's no tax on cash carried over into the next year.
There's a crap ton of variables. I get that you have been sold on having a pension account. It is good for people who don't understand investments, markets, lack discipline, and need to have a security blanket. Similar to getting an allowance from Mom and Dad once a month.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Benefits are not free for anyone. If you are the company owner then you pay cash for them. If you are an employee then you pay for them with your labor. None of it is free. Alan, you guys always talk about benefits like it's free candy. It's not. You pay for it.

Alan, here's a question to ponder. Rob says he made 100K for ten years but through creative accounting payed no income tax. Would he have been better off to show a 30K profit and stick it all in a tax free retirement account--which any professional gambler is eligible to do?

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Leave it to a slug like mickey to give excuses for being on the government dole and always having been a lazy white man that never worked.

And get your lies straight. I netted about $94k/yr., I wrote almost all of it off using expenses that I would have incurred whether I was a professional gambler or not--thru creative and LEGAL accounting because I was also a writer and consultant--and we certainly did pay income taxes on investment and other income a bum like you'd never comprehend, as well as on my wife's work income.

I can see why you drink. You have this idea that you're some kind of rogue expert on everything gambling, and because you like to fantasize about yourself being a "gambling outlaw" of sorts, you tell yourself the 8 ap's who post here are as impressed with your slew of tall tales as you think they are with kew's spews.

Wise up fool.

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Well, I have been on GWAE twice. How many times have you been on the show?

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Now THERE'S a resume' to be proud of.

Tell us....was the income taxable? :) And did you record Munchkin's voice so you can use it to scare away grown men you owe money to?

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

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I believe he's confusing fully company funded private company pensions with employee contribution-based government ones.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

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Pensions often have some survivor benefits defined. Spouses continue to receive payment, dependent children, maybe a defined lump sum for early death, etc.
Self directed and owned assets that generate income can be passed to whomever.
Living life lacking personal responsibility often results in one's progeny getting stiffed. But you already got an early start in that department.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

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Pensions often have some survivor benefits defined. Spouses continue to receive payment, dependent children, maybe a defined lump sum for early death, etc.
Self directed and owned assets that generate income can be passed to whomever.
Living life lacking personal responsibility often results in one's progeny getting stiffed. But you already got an early start in that department.

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This is hardly a comprehensive breakdown. You have the choice of providing for survivor benefits or not at the point of initially receiving your monthly benefit, which of course if you do it reduces your monthly benefit. And neither my private company pension or my gov't pension can be taken in a lump sum--ever. I'm sure there are some that can be.

I believe you're beginning to realize Alan's wealth far exceeds most people's around here, which is why your personal attacks keep on coming.

Maybe we need Moses to take you out to the woodshed once again?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

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I guess it works out pretty good for killers. Most people are not killers and so not qualified.

This discussion about cash vs retirement funds is just stupid. These APs might know how to play blackjack and keno but they are clueless about handling money for the future. Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family, or is their future defined by the next free play mailer from the casino and what the next loss rebate is?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

This discussion about cash vs retirement funds is just stupid. These APs might know how to play blackjack and keno but they are clueless about handling money for the future. Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family, or is their future defined by the next free play mailer from the casino and what the next loss rebate is?

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Alan, why don't you worry about your own financial situation and quit fucking with others about theirs. Your nose is as big as Singers. Not about lying but about being fucking NOSEY about others financial situations. It's none of your fucking business, chump.

Mr. V? As a lawyer what kind of free benefits do you get?

Let's end this discussion easily and simply. Just Google cash vs retirement savings or benefits of pensions or any combination of similar terms. Or, pick up your phone and call any bank and ask for a free consultation with a financial advisor. Done.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

This discussion about cash vs retirement funds is just stupid.

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That was my thought. First you have to get a million before you can worry about what to do with it. Trick question for Singer or Mick. First answer gets a free drink coupon at Peppermill. You know those leather bank bags that a business uses to cart money back and forth from the bank. How many does it take to hold a million dollars?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

These APs might know how to play blackjack, but they are clueless about handling money for the future.

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Whew! I'm sure glad I'm not an AP. That would suck.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family, ?

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Hmmm. Let's go with Not Really for $200 Alex. But I did it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

or is their future defined by the next free play mailer from the casino and what the next loss rebate is?

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Ahem. I like free stuff. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I believe you're beginning to realize Alan's wealth far exceeds most people's around here, which is why your personal attacks keep on coming.

Maybe we need Moses to take you out to the woodshed once again?

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Hmmm. There is that certain aroma in the air. Damn neighbors dog crapped in my yard again.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Similar to getting an allowance from Mom and Dad once a month.

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So how is it that you have a 6 figure income, know so much about investing a million, yet get an allowance from Mommy and Daddy?

Ya know. Rob if I shoot that dog square in the ass with a BB gun, damn that dog is fast. Hold a clock on him. Will ya?

Easy Max. I said clock not cock.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

OJ lost his cash and non pension protected assets to the Goldmans.

Assets in a pension account have favorable tax treatments.

There are TWO big reasons without even knowing what the pension plan is.

---

Pensions often have some survivor benefits defined. Spouses continue to receive payment, dependent children, maybe a defined lump sum for early death, etc.
Self directed and owned assets that generate income can be passed to whomever.
Living life lacking personal responsibility often results in one's progeny getting stiffed. But you already got an early start in that department.

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This is hardly a comprehensive breakdown. You have the choice of providing for survivor benefits or not at the point of initially receiving your monthly benefit, which of course if you do it reduces your monthly benefit. And neither my private company pension or my gov't pension can be taken in a lump sum--ever. I'm sure there are some that can be.

I believe you're beginning to realize Alan's wealth far exceeds most people's around here, which is why your personal attacks keep on coming.

Maybe we need Moses to take you out to the woodshed once again?

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The odds of you even having a pension are about the same as you having a 9 inch cock. The only one I see attacking is Alan. Trying to claim his 3K amonth or whatever it is better than having a million dollars sitting in front of him right now. Also, trying to speculate all AP's are low income turds in the bottom 30% compared to his very average wealth status.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family

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How did that work out for you? Alimony payments?

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Also, trying to speculate all AP's are low income turds in the bottom 30% compared to his very average wealth status.

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There are worse things than being a low income turd. Like being a no income turd.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family

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How did that work out for you? Alimony payments?

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I had no trouble paying out millions.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family

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How did that work out for you? Alimony payments?

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I had no trouble paying out millions.

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And yet you can't swing a few thousand that you owe your kids.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkcbxjWG9Mc

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

This discussion about cash vs retirement funds is just stupid. These APs might know how to play blackjack and keno but they are clueless about handling money for the future. Come to think of it, do any of them have any reason to plan for the future with a spouse or family, or is their future defined by the next free play mailer from the casino and what the next loss rebate is?

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Alan, the reason you're eliciting so much agitation over this is because these AP people have the typical uneasy time whenever you talk about a touchy subject such as future financial capabilities with them. And it's a safe bet most of them work or are retired anyway, or they do like kew does and lives off of someone else until they die. The biggest problem is, there are no pensions for them, their SS will or is based on their puny lifelong earnings, and retirement accounts have no meaning to them. And as you can see, mickey is especially rattled by this discussion, In much the same way redietz was as soon as the conversation changed to big dicks.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

In much the same way redietz was as soon as the conversation changed to big dicks.

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I'm not so sure that was a shrewd move. I mean every queer focker in Vegas is now going to be staring at your crotch. MaxPen can't hardly write a sentence without some version of the word in it. Hmmm and I thought is was a blackjack term.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You, Singer, Larry S, and Alan can continue sitting around having a circle jerk over me. .

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Man...This is one sick dude with a weird fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

In much the same way redietz was as soon as the conversation changed to big dicks.

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I'm not so sure that was a shrewd move. I mean every queer focker in Vegas is now going to be staring at your crotch. MaxPen can't hardly write a sentence without some version of the word in it. Hmmm and I thought is was a blackjack term.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You, Singer, Larry S, and Alan can continue sitting around having a circle jerk over me. .

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Man...This is one sick dude with a weird fantasy.

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You can tell by his posts, Robocchio is very concerned (fantacizing) about my sex life.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Moses

I'm not so sure that was a shrewd move. I mean every queer focker in Vegas is now going to be staring at your crotch. MaxPen can't hardly write a sentence without some version of the word in it. Hmmm and I thought is was a blackjack term.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You, Singer, Larry S, and Alan can continue sitting around having a circle jerk over me. .

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Man...This is one sick dude with a weird fantasy.

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You can tell by his posts, Robocchio is very concerned (fantacizing) about my sex life.

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Where was there any reference to mickeycrimm in this post?

No. That's okay Mickster. I figured he found himself a "big ole good un" and bumped his head too hard against the headboard. lol

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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One AP I know made a bunch of money and bought an old historic hotel in Vermont. He spent his bankroll remodeling it but the hotel didn't catch on and he went BK. He went back to AP'ing. I think axel knows the guy. He was good friends with Danny L.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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If you've ever read the trials and tribulations of Chip Reese and Doyle Brunson, they had to keep playing poker because all their business ventures kept falling through.

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Originally Posted by Moses

No. That's okay Mickster. I figured he found himself a "big ole good un" and bumped his head too hard against the headboard. lol

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LOL!

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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I usually go on a trip or put it into my house with the idea of increasing it's value. Thinking about doing the entire front and back yard in Astro turf this spring. No more mowing, watering, seeding, and rabbits. Juice Newton say she doesn't like it because it gets so hot. She is still hot. Ya, I'd call her Angel in the Morning. Or whatever she wants anytime.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Moses

No. That's okay Mickster. I figured he found himself a "big ole good un" and bumped his head too hard against the headboard. lol

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LOL!

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I had a Buddy of mine who is a Paleontologists who heads up to your neck of the woods in the summer. He actually did the documentary for the original Jurassic Park. Anyway, he had an old girl friend he was going to visit in Idaho. He came through and we tipped a few on his way up. Then he dropped in on his way back. We ask him how the date went. He said she'd put on about 100 lbs. He said moving love to her was like trying to move a broken sofa. :D

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Originally Posted by Moses

Thinking about doing the entire front and back yard in Astro turf this spring. No more mowing, watering, seeding, and rabbits. Juice Newton say she doesn't like it because it gets so hot.

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Juice is right...art turf it is too hot...it's the crumbled black rubber base that holds the heat.

If you need green, then natural grass is much better, unless you are worried about rain-outs and schedules.

There are self-seeding no-mow low-water ground-covers, like this stuff...

https://ptlawnseed.com/products/fleur-de-lawn

And what's your problem with rabbits?

Were you Elmer J Fudd in another life, or are you him now?

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

In much the same way redietz was as soon as the conversation changed to big dicks.

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I'm not so sure that was a shrewd move. I mean every queer focker in Vegas is now going to be staring at your crotch. MaxPen can't hardly write a sentence without some version of the word in it. Hmmm and I thought is was a blackjack term.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You, Singer, Larry S, and Alan can continue sitting around having a circle jerk over me. .

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Man...This is one sick dude with a weird fantasy.

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It is established theory that homophobia is linked with latent tendencies. Sorry you see gayness everywhere you look.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by Moses

Thinking about doing the entire front and back yard in Astro turf this spring. No more mowing, watering, seeding, and rabbits. Juice Newton say she doesn't like it because it gets so hot.

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Juice is right...art turf it is too hot...it's the crumbled black rubber base that holds the heat.

If you need green, then natural grass is much better, unless you are worried about rain-outs and schedules.

There are self-seeding no-mow low-water ground-covers, like this stuff...

https://ptlawnseed.com/products/fleur-de-lawn

And what's your problem with rabbits?

Were you Elmer J Fudd in another life, or are you him now?

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Thanks Coach. We have a wrought iron fence for the view and no neighbors in the back. Damn rabbits get through and eat the grass. Good news is I don't have to mow the back. Bad news is they crap like wild geese. I could be Elmer. I had a pigeon problem at a house we bought on a foreclosure. Damn that was a mess. I felt like I was in that 60s movie The Birds. Damn things would poop on me while I was power washing the roof. I got a high powered pullet gun. I became a pretty good shot...at 5am. 66 down and 1 drive by on the smartest one.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Moses

I'm not so sure that was a shrewd move. I mean every queer focker in Vegas is now going to be staring at your crotch. MaxPen can't hardly write a sentence without some version of the word in it. Hmmm and I thought is was a blackjack term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You, Singer, Larry S, and Alan can continue sitting around having a circle jerk over me. .

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Man...This is one sick dude with a weird fantasy.

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It is established theory that homophobia is linked with latent tendencies. Sorry you see gayness everywhere you look.

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Well dipshit. Your the one wanting guys to circle jerk over you. Sick. sick. sick. I have assholaphobia. Just can't stand assholes like you. Never could.

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Originally Posted by Moses

I had a pigeon problem

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Pigeons? Where do you live?

We like the rabbits.

Deer are our problem, they eat everything but the weeds, and they shit piles of pellets the size of golf balls.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Mr. V? As a lawyer what kind of free benefits do you get?

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Ain't nothin' for free, Mickey: nothin' at all.

I have real estate, stocks, an annuity, cash on hand, cash in the bank and a stock-funded IRA.

No worries; thanks for asking.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Mr. V? As a lawyer what kind of free benefits do you get?

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Ain't nothin' for free, Mickey: nothin' at all.

I have real estate, stocks, an annuity, cash on hand, cash in the bank and a stock-funded IRA.

No worries; thanks for asking.

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I figured your answer would be something like that. I was just making the point to Alan that benefits are not free candy.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by Moses

I had a pigeon problem

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Pigeons? Where do you live?

We like the rabbits.

Deer are our problem, they eat everything but the weeds, and they shit piles of pellets the size of golf balls.

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LOL. So you clean your yard with a 7 iron? Pigeons were when I lived in California. Rabbits are here in Reno. Kind of a unique setting. You can see all of God's creations in the backyard for as far as the eye can see. Then sit on the front porch and see all of downtown. I have to go into hell in order to see heaven. lol

The wildlife are coming down really low this year. Lots of coyotes. 3 at the mailbox yesterday. There was a bobcat in our backyard a few weeks ago. I was driving home the other night and a van hit an Elk just down the street. That's unusual. I saw a hawk and a pit bull tangle the other day over a rabbit. Guess who won?

Where do you live? What sports did you Coach? If I'm not being to nosy.

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Originally Posted by Moses

The wildlife are coming down really low this year. Lots of coyotes. 3 at the mailbox yesterday. There was a bobcat in our backyard a few weeks ago. I was driving home the other night and a van hit an Elk. That's unusual. I saw a hawk an a pit bull tangle the other day over a rabbit. Guess who won?

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You live in God's Country and I live just outside of Hell's Kitchen, but we see the same critters.

Rabbits...check. Foxes...check. Coyotes...check. Bobcats?...we have mountain lions. Elks?...yes the Elks Club is a favorite townie bar. Hawks are a-plenty in our trees...the Red Tailed Hawk is a local mascot...they are like dinosaurs.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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You are so full of shit.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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"Money in a shoebox ain't worth anything." Johnny Moss

He fed his gambling winnings to his wife who bought rental property with it. The terms were she could never give the money back to him.

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Originally Posted by monet

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Originally Posted by RS__

I think part of the problem or confusion is that Alan has this idea that APs are scraping by struggling to make $30-50k/year. That’s certainly true for some APs, but nowhere near the level Alan and co believe. Most of the ones I know have invested their profits in other stuff because money that just sits there doesn’t make more money. Stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, other APs and/or running an AP team, etc. One AP I know is working on starting his own business in the near future. I don’t know any APs that need the next freeplay offer or the next promotion to come up so they can stay afloat.

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You are so full of shit.

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Of course he is. This is his personal fantasy. He knows absolutely NOTHING about anyone else's personal finances from gambling or from anywhere else, other than what he wants to believe from what a few of the liars tell him. If they were all fisherman he'd believe them if they said they all caught whoppers everyday and were millionaires from it. The only thing he knows for real is that the AP of AP's, Shack, had to beg for money from forum members, and that ap-extraordinaire axel needed to sell gift cards here at a discount to stay afloat.

Such inexperience with life......

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Of course he is. This is hispersonal fantasy. He knows absolutely NOTHING about anyone else's personal finances from gambling or from anywhere else, other than what he wants to believe from what a few of the liars tell him. If they were all fisherman he'd believe them if they said they all caught whoppers everyday and were millionaires from it.

Such inexperience with life......

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Good point. Perhaps money has no ceiling. But there is definitely a cap on time. History proves we all run out of it sooner or later. I have two really close friends and I'm somewhat aware of their financial position. One is what I might term a homeless AP. It's the dambest thing I've ever seen. I've learned a helluva lot from that guy as he employs a unique concept to life in general. The other is a multi millionaire that can't spend a nickel. I've learned many things from him as well. Odd that those two guys are such close friends. Polar opposites yet both comfortable in their skin. But no way could either live in the others.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Which would you rather have... a million dollar retirement account or a million dollars cash?

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that is a question that cannot be answered because it depends on the person's appetite for risk

depending on a person's personality some embrace risk and some shy away from it

that is why the talking heads of investment advice are so very wrong - they always say the older you get the more you should move your investments onto safer ground
if an 80 year old accepts and enjoys risk and is competent why instruct him to be so conservative?
that is his personality. pushing him to do something he doesn't want to do is going to make him miserable

if a 25 year old is going to freak out if he's in a stock market mutual fund that can lose 40% in a very bad year such as 2008 then he doesn't belong in that type of investment
pushing people to do these things based on "one size fits all" is not helpful advice

the best thing an investor can do is make sure he's knowledgeable about all of the various options and their likely performance swings before making his decision


for me: I would split a large sum of money - with some % of it I would accept risk and with some % of it I would want more safety





and BTW anyone with $1 million cash can take all or more likely part of it and buy a single premium lifetime annuity with or without a guaranteed return of principle (of course that would mean the montly payout would be about 14% less with the guaranteed return option.)

this annuity is basically the same thing as a pension - the payout is largely based on a person's age and current interest rates

this is an extremely conservative option - the return is low - but if follows the path of those who say "the most important thing is not to outlive your money" which does make some sense

also, if a person lives a very long life, for example to age 96 this investment will have been a very good one since it is never capped

there is some tiny risk that a very large insurance company could default but that can happen and has happened with corporate pensions also

From reading mickey's posts I'm pretty sure he didn't choose his path to become wealthy
I think he chose it because he likes the alternative lifestyle

I respect what he does and has done

living your life working 60 hours a week in the corporate world can destroy a person's soul - I'm not denying that there are other benefits to it
if somebody tells me they are a coder and and make 100K good for them but I have no interest in what they do and it doesn't impress me

I lived my life in the corporate world and only APed part time
what I did was so boring I would never even bother to describe it to anyone
it provided me with income and stability but other than that it pretty much sucked

probably only a very small % of those doing traditional types of work including those who are professionals would consider their work to be very rewarding in other than a financial way

First thing--if you believe the life mickey's claiming right now then you've been fooled. His entire life has been one of thinking he's some type of alternative rogue outlaw, and his posts for many years clearly depicts that. What he posts now is out of necessity....he NEEDS to put some sort of public exclamation mark at his name's end after a life of being a social dropout and a self-admitted bum, hobo, and unemployed alcoholic. I think those people who say they believe his BS enjoy fantacizing about being a loser on the loose.

You didn't enjoy your corporate world employment--I did. I never had an 8-5 at any job though, and it wasn't 16 hour days unless you count the time at airports and in airplanes, which easily made every week a 100 hour week. But it's all what you make of it. I spent the last year on the airplanes devising a video poker strategy that ended up being very successful to this day. Sometimes enjoyment and success do happen together.

Sorry Rob, but I and most of the others on this board believe MC's claims.

The same credibility does not attach to your claims, however.

Hmmm, I wonder why that could be?

hint: quit tooting your own fucking horn and trying to act superior.

Your "My cock is bigger than yours and I have more money than you do" schtick is an epic fail.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Sorry Rob, but I and most of the others on this board believe MC's claims.

The same credibility does not attach to your claims, however.

Hmmm, I wonder why that could be?

hint: quit tooting your own fucking horn and trying to act superior.

Your "My cock is bigger than yours and I have more money than you do" schtick is an epic fail.

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And you believe a bum like mickey because as a raging libtard, you'd like to believe pretending that a lifelong lowlife with no education worked his way out of the gutter with the government handouts, is a good thing.

Only envious losing gamblers like you would choose to believe I'm claiming to have more of that stuff than everyone else.

Wow, narcissism without foundation or basis.

Not uncommon, just unfortunate for those around you.

You're a legend in your own mind.

Unlike you, MC has provided proof of his claims, and so far as I recall he has never been caught in a lie.

You, on the other hand, emulate your hero, Herr Trump.

Oh, I'm not a libtard, I'm a libertarian: there's a difference, but I wouldn't expect you to discern it.

Now you're lying about yourself as well as others.

Mickey's provided proof? Exactly where? The only thing I've seen him prove is that he now lives in an old junk car, and how he pretends like you do to "know" everything about everyone else.

The best part about Trump is how he riles libtards like you--esp. those who hide behind the face of claiming to be libertarians because they can't stand the dems. Everyday conservatives get to watch the extreme P-A-I-N those who oppose and lie about Trump suffer. And it is worth it!

I say I am libertarian because their views most closely emulate my own: I always vote libertarian if a libertarian is on the ballot.

I believe in as little government involvement in my life as is reasonably possible.

I am fiscally conservative yet also, seemingly paradoxically, somewhat socially concerned, which may seem to be un-libertarian, but there it is.

We are what we are.

I dislike both Trump and antifa.

As for MC's "proof", consider all the pics of tribal casinos he's been posting in the road trip thread; that proves, to me at least, that he is visiting them: why would he visit so many of them unless it was worthwhile to do so?

Also, closer to home, he recalled that my regular go-to casion is Chinook Winds in Lincoln City, Oregon, and after he visited that casino he posted about a possible AP opportunity on a particular machine that was there at the time.

This man whom you denigrate as an uneducated drunkard (he seems not to have fallen off the wagon) has displayed great knowledge of slots, how they work, and others vouch for his seeming knowledge of his craft.

Which is not to say you are chopped liver; it's just that, to me at least, his "body of work" seems to be sounder and more relevant.

I really have to wonder what bugs you so much that you are constrained to attack, attack, attack: I play that game too, at least to a point, but my motivation is more playful than punitive.

I believe what mickeycrimm writes. I even believe that it is possible he wins a small amount every day... because I think every player is ahead at some point every day and it is possible to quit when ahead to show a profit.

I also believe it is possible to travel from casino to casino if that's what you choose to do.

But I wouldn't change my life for his. God bless you mickeycrimm and have a happy, healthy and good new year.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I believe what mickeycrimm writes. I even believe that it is possible he wins a small amount every day... because I think every player is ahead at some point every day and it is possible to quit when ahead to show a profit.

I also believe it is possible to travel from casino to casino if that's what you choose to do.

But I wouldn't change my life for his. God bless you mickeycrimm and have a happy, healthy and good new year.

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The best mercy-post of 2019.