Infor just for you bob21

Blobby21, in expressing your admiration for "the nut job", you have mentioned how impressed you were by how many views he gets on the mental Island. :rolleyes:

I have to admit that is the first time I took notice. Immediately I knew something was wrong. I mean sure that are a very small number of folks that are periodically popping in over there to continue to watch his breakdown. People love to watch a train wreck. I myself visit once every day or two just to make note of any additional threats and forward them as I was requested to do by law enforcement. But when I finally noticed those numbers I knew something was up. No way were thousands of people viewing Moses's rantings as you and him (if you are in fact 2 different people) think and were proud of.

So Today, I got the answer. I received an email from a friend in the community that told me that one of the guys from Norm's forum, one of the computer tech type guys that knows all that stuff that I am in the dark about....wrote a program where a "bot" repeatedly views posts by Moses just to drive up the views to fuck with him. Funny, Funny Shit! I mean we need a new seriously rolling on the floor laughing hysterically emoji for this one. :D

And I know this sounds a little far fetched. 2 things: This is a very credible person that confidentially shared this with me. And 2 anyone doubting take a look at the view numbers. Moses has 4, 5, 6 thousand views, while other threads have a hundred or so. I mean this is a dead forum. There aren't thousands of people reading Moses. LOL! There aren't even thousands of members in the community if you were to add the active members from all forums together.

I gotta laugh again. Funny, funny shit. Even though I was fooled and left scratching my head as well.....kudos to the person responsible. You seriously fucked with one of the bigger trolls in the community. Well done!

Moses really bothers you, doesn't he. :)

In fact....ANYBODY who doesn't agree with or buy your lies a bs actually bothers you right thru the looong nights, don't they.

Moses don't bother me, Rob Singer or whatever your name is.

For years have known that Moses's claims were bullshit, just like the guy I called out earlier on a blackjack forum and just like yourself. But there was no reason for me to publicly call out Moses, or say to much. And circumstance of us both being banned from different forums, me for forum politic reasons, him for his crazy trolling issues, kept us apart for the most part.

What I determined quite a while ago is that yes, Moses has a little bit of blackjack knowledge, especially relating to the single deck game (real single deck not 6:5). In reading his re-hashed and re=spewed knowledge, it was like re-reading a book from the 1980, when those conditions were popular.

Knowing Reno from my own experience as well as experiences shared by other players, I knew there is no way a player can play professionally based out of Reno. It is too small and they just will not let a 'regular' player get that kind of money down for more than a couple days at best.

So I sort of determined that Moses was likely a $5 player, spreading to $15 or $20. Probably a retired guy with retirement pension from some sort of blue collar career and/or social security, who hung out in the sportsbook with his retired buddies and played a bit of $5 blackjack (probably at the begging of the month when he wasn't broke). And I am not making fun of that....that scenario isn't a bad situation for someone retired that enjoys gambling.

However because of this threat situation and my involvement with Law enforcement, they have shared with me some info and it turns out Moses is NOT retired, or at least not of traditional retirement age, although getting close. He is however probably receiving social security...social security disability and if I had to guess (they wouldn't share this info) I would guess not for a physical disability. :rolleyes:

So he likely has his SS disability or SSI (if he never worked) and the part about hanging out with his buddies in the sportsbook, wagering $11 on a few basketball games and occasionally playing $5 blackjack probably still holds. Only difference is his buddies are probably not legitimate "retired" guys as I first assumed. Probably a mix of homeless (like the great Tatar) and others in the same boat as Moses. Moses may or may not even be homeless himself. I would guess not. Probably has some room that he rents so he has a place to lay his head, but who knows...who cares.

We have these homeless groups in Vegas, including people that may or may not be on some sort of disability, SSI or other assistance that hang out in some of the small lower end casino sportsbooks. Jerry's Nugget, Arizona Charlies, Silver Seven even Sam's town. I am sure a few more.

THAT is what we are talking about here. The only difference with Moses is that he is an internet troll who has recently escalated his trolling to a criminal level with repeated threats of physical violence.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

We have these homeless groups in Vegas, including people that may or may not be on some sort of disability, SSI or other assistance that hang out in some of the small lower end casino sportsbooks. Jerry's Nugget, Arizona Charlies, Silver Seven even Sam's town. I am sure a few more.

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In re-reading, I should have said homeless or near homeless groups of people. But I think everyone gets the jist and probably has encountered these types of people.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Blobby21, in expressing your admiration for "the nut job", you have mentioned how impressed you were by how many views he gets on the mental Island. :rolleyes:

I have to admit that is the first time I took notice. Immediately I knew something was wrong. I mean sure that are a very small number of folks that are periodically popping in over there to continue to watch his breakdown. People love to watch a train wreck. I myself visit once every day or two just to make note of any additional threats and forward them as I was requested to do by law enforcement. But when I finally noticed those numbers I knew something was up. No way were thousands of people viewing Moses's rantings as you and him (if you are in fact 2 different people) think and were proud of.

So Today, I got the answer. I received an email from a friend in the community that told me that one of the guys from Norm's forum, one of the computer tech type guys that knows all that stuff that I am in the dark about....wrote a program where a "bot" repeatedly views posts by Moses just to drive up the views to fuck with him. Funny, Funny Shit! I mean we need a new seriously rolling on the floor laughing hysterically emoji for this one. :D

And I know this sounds a little far fetched. 2 things: This is a very credible person that confidentially shared this with me. And 2 anyone doubting take a look at the view numbers. Moses has 4, 5, 6 thousand views, while other threads have a hundred or so. I mean this is a dead forum. There aren't thousands of people reading Moses. LOL! There aren't even thousands of members in the community if you were to add the active members from all forums together.

I gotta laugh again. Funny, funny shit. Even though I was fooled and left scratching my head as well.....kudos to the person responsible. You seriously fucked with one of the bigger trolls in the community. Well done!

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And here I though you came to the forums to talk about blackjack and help others etc? This stuff is all nonsense you don't really need in your life. Just block and ignore the people who you cant ever win with.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

And here I though you came to the forums to talk about blackjack and help others etc? This stuff is all nonsense you don't really need in your life. Just block and ignore the people who you cant ever win with.

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Really?!? You are going to bust on me for this? This forum has very little real blackjack discussion. And there is very little "helping others" going on here or anyone even looking for or open to help. :rolleyes:

Regardless as to why any of us came to this forum, the fact that we stay here, with this goofiness, means we ALL have some issues. :D

Why exactly are you here? You thought there were free drinks? ;)

Kewlj, I'm really feeling bad for you at this point. I'm thinking about financing therapy for you.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Kewlj, I'm really feeling bad for you at this point. I'm thinking about financing therapy for you.

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You should finance a lobotomy for Moses...that kook that has the hots for you

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

And here I though you came to the forums to talk about blackjack and help others etc? This stuff is all nonsense you don't really need in your life. Just block and ignore the people who you cant ever win with.

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Really?!? You are going to bust on me for this? This forum has very little real blackjack discussion. And there is very little "helping others" going on here or anyone even looking for or open to help. :rolleyes:

Regardless as to why any of us came to this forum, the fact that we stay here, with this goofiness, means we ALL have some issues. :D

Why exactly are you here? You thought there were free drinks? ;)

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I certainly didn't come here for the free dicks like you thought there was going to be.:eek:

But seriously.... (I didnt)

Not trying to bust you for anything. Just trying to give you some advice. If you want to talk about blackjack, then do so. It's simple, talk about it and just ignore negative comments. When you participate in all the other stuff it fuels the the situation/trolls and just drives the focus on that aspect and away from the good stuff. There is only so much time in the day, you can choose to go back and fourth with the naysayers and trolls or you can chose that time to talk about the things that are important to you that you like.

You cant even compare your situation to mine, its like comparing apples and oranges. You seem to be a drama magnet and tend have 20x more issues than anyone else. And whats more, you can't seem to step away or let stuff go for that long and it seems to affect you more than most. I can actually see/visualize you getting upset from time to time. From my understanding, the forums have negatively seeped into your personal life and even caused you damage and almost death(?). I mean you guys are talking about lawsuits, personal threats, lost income etc etc.



First time shame on you, 2nd time shame on me, 3rd time( people have to ask)....WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?

I have had very little problems on the forums with others(and if you will notice, most of the people I have had issues with, they seem to have issues with most everyone). There have been some, but they are minuscule compared to the positive aspects. I have meet many good people on the forums and made some good friends who I can trust and even be mutually beneficial to each other. The forums have been overwhelmingly good for me in many different ways and aspects of my life. So that's my justification.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

We have these homeless groups in Vegas, including people that may or may not be on some sort of disability, SSI or other assistance that hang out in some of the small lower end casino sportsbooks. Jerry's Nugget, Arizona Charlies, Silver Seven even Sam's town. I am sure a few more.

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In re-reading, I should have said homeless or near homeless groups of people. But I think everyone gets the jist and probably has encountered these types of people.

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Can't say how it is today but St. Vincents used to have a separate shelter for the old guys on SS. When they got their checks they were gone to the casinos until they blew it all. Then they would go back to the shelter and sit it out for the month until they got their next check.

Another BS Thread started by kewlJ after complaining about Mendlesons BS threads.

Unlike several trolls here who's only purpose is to troll, Monet is a knowledgeable AP who could be a real asset to this forum. Too bad his pettiness gets the best of him and gets in the way of that.

No I am not Moses. Yes I do know Moses. No I am not Tater. I have met Tater twice.

Moses invites anyone from this forum to come see him and he will prove all these allegations are false. You can come to his home. Watch him play blackjack at green chip tables. Meet Tater in person. He will take you to a sports book and show his history of betting $2,200 a game. HE will show you how he both column counts and percentage counts. Moses has never been homeless. Never been on SSI or any disability. Never been in, let alone slept in a homeless shelter. He has no debt and a strong financial portfolio. Certainly more than enough to set aside a retainer.

In the meantime, until the allegation are proved by KJ and Bosox, they should be banned. IF Moses provides proof to anyone that wants to come visit then a ban for false accusation should be permanent. These threads were made by KJ and many posts made where Moses could not reply.


MOses replies; PUT your money where you mouth is KJ.

So I sort of determined that Moses was likely a $5 player, spreading to $15 or $20. Probably a retired guy with retirement pension from some sort of blue collar career and/or social security, who hung out in the sportsbook with his retired buddies and played a bit of $5 blackjack (probably at the begging of the month when he wasn't broke). And I am not making fun of that....that scenario isn't a bad situation for someone retired that enjoys gambling.

I will bet your $29K you are wrong.

However because of this threat situation and my involvement with Law enforcement, they have shared with me some info and it turns out Moses is NOT retired, or at least not of traditional retirement age, although getting close. He is however probably receiving social security...social security disability and if I had to guess (they wouldn't share this info) I would guess not for a physical disability.

I will bet your $29K you are wrong.

So he likely has his SS disability or SSI (if he never worked) and the part about hanging out with his buddies in the sportsbook, wagering $11 on a few basketball games and occasionally playing $5 blackjack probably still holds. Only difference is his buddies are probably not legitimate "retired" guys as I first assumed. Probably a mix of homeless (like the great Tatar) and others in the same boat as Moses. Moses may or may not even be homeless himself. I would guess not. Probably has some room that he rents so he has a place to lay his head, but who knows...who cares.

I will bet your $29K you are wrong.

THAT is what we are talking about here. The only difference with Moses is that he is an internet troll who has recently escalated his trolling to a criminal level with repeated threats of physical violence.

Please list the phone number of your agency, detective name, case number, and I will call them. There is also a law about enticement and false allegations. Bring it KJ.

KJ writes: In re-reading, I should have said homeless or near homeless groups of people. But I think everyone gets the jist and probably has encountered these types of people.

Moses I will bet you $29K you are wrong. C'mon KJ stop being such a wuss. MAN UP. WISE UP. PAY UP. SHUT UP.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Kewlj, I'm really feeling bad for you at this point. I'm thinking about financing therapy for you.

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Hello Blackhole. Pathological gamblers are highly competitive and overly concerned about approval from others. Prone to other "addictive" disorders. Persistent patterns which cause difficulty with interpersonal, financial, and vocational functioning.

Compulsive liar: The major losses are a self deception to it all and more will return in the long run. Thus he needs others in his boat in order to justify his losses as a sacrifice to others. KJ will spend his entire, yet shortened, life in pursuit of the "Blue Ribbon" at the of the long run. Low self esteem is commonly found in pathological liars. The lie is an attempt to feel good about themselves. Hence, the constant lies about Moses.

The same lie repeated over and over creates a myth of success and displacement of his own failure. So his imaginary fantasy world serves as a protection bubble to reinforce self esteem to deal with losing. Pathological liars use deceit as an ego defense mechanism. This is primarily caused by the lack of ability to cope with everyday problems in a mature way.

Btw. Mr Hole. where do I send my bill? They'll be $29k please. lol

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Don't be befuddled, be happy I think he owes you $29K four times over. No wonder his playing days are over. He should have stayed to the sports book betting.

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Bosox clearly struggles with comprehension and creative writing skills. He probably had a difficult time in middle and high school. This is usually when the ability to interpret social and emotional cues and nonliteral phrases become important for learning. Although highly intelligent, little things, like Post Quick Reply are very confusing to this type of syndrome.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

And here I though you came to the forums to talk about blackjack and help others etc? This stuff is all nonsense you don't really need in your life. Just block and ignore the people who you cant ever win with.

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Excellent post. Just put the world on ignore. Bad for the psychiatry biz though. Wait! Bad idea. :D

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I certainly didn't come here for the free dicks like you thought there was going to be.:eek:
WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?

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O. My Gosh! :o

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Originally Posted by Bob21

But based on kj’s standards this is okay. Until someone sends me the official AP code of conduct manual, I’m going with Kj’s manual. He says sock puppets are okay as long as the sock puppet himself/herself feels they are justified in using a sock puppet. Makes sense to me. Lol.

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KJ takes Bosox in for a check up. The nurse says "we need a sperm sample, a stool, and a urine sample." Bosox, says "OMG what should I do"?

KJ says, "here, hand them my sock puppet."

Does that help clear it up for you Bob? ;)

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Originally Posted by UCFX

Excellent post. Just put the world on ignore. Bad for the psychiatry biz though. Wait! Bad idea. :D



O. My Gosh! :o

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Originally Posted by Bob21

But based on kj’s standards this is okay. Until someone sends me the official AP code of conduct manual, I’m going with Kj’s manual. He says sock puppets are okay as long as the sock puppet himself/herself feels they are justified in using a sock puppet. Makes sense to me. Lol.

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KJ takes Bosox in for a check up. The nurse says "we need a sperm sample, a stool, and a urine sample." Bosox, says "OMG what should I do"?

KJ says, "here, hand them my sock puppet."

Does that help clear it up for you Bob? ;)

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Can you please note that you edited out words in my post. It changes the context of what I said for the purpose of disparaging KJ. I can get in enough conflict on my own under normal circumstances.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Can you please note that you edited out words in my post. It changes the context of what I said for the purpose of disparaging KJ. I can get in enough conflict on my own under normal circumstances.

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Hmmm. That's a tough one Axel.

Let's go with see Post #9. Very funny comeback to KJs put down to you.

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Originally Posted by UCFX

Bosox clearly struggles with comprehension and creative writing skills. He probably had a difficult time in middle and high school. This is usually when the ability to interpret social and emotional cues and nonliteral phrases become important for learning. Although highly intelligent, little things, like Post Quick Reply are very confusing to this type of syndrome.

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Listen, lady, you are not exactly a genius in selecting meaningful men in your life.

So in catching up with some forum reading, including forums I now only occasionally read, I was reading the thread where the member known as Zee on several BJ forums, was banned from Colin's blackjack apprentice forum. Since BJA is a paid membership, Colin refunded Zee's membership.

I have a point to make concerning a member here, but before I do, I want to stray just a bit and say, I am not a huge fan of Colin or the BJ apprentice guys, not the guys personally, but the concept. I have no problem with former or active players writing books, but I don't think we need to be "recruiting" new players (competition). It is one thing to advise and share experiences with enthusiasts who have found this community, but the concept of "recruiting" and a "boot camp" churning out new players is not good for any of us active players. :( I have never not once visited the site, nor participated because of my views.

Ok, now back to my point. In reading that this Zee person was banned at BJ apprentice it was discussed that he becomes the second person ever banned at BJA. I mean this is a money-making proposition that makes money off memberships, so it goes without saying it becomes pretty hard to get banned and have them refuse your money. :rolleyes:

So who was the other person banned at this forum/money making/recruiting group? Why our very own Bob21, posting under whatever name he used there. :rolleyes: So why was 'our' Bob21 banned at BJ apprentice? :confused: Repeated views supporting the casino industry. :rolleyes: NO surprise! Same exact M.O. as here and everywhere else he has participated. Bob21 is a casino industry supporter. Likely works for a casino or has family or friends that do. And as such has anti-AP views and positions, despite his claims that he is a recreational card counter. This claim is likely cover for his positions and views.

Now it is OK, for Casino personnel to participate on these forums. Some do so openly as a couple at WoV do. I respect that, even though I rarely agree with anything they post or support. Many more casino personnel and/or supporters participate less openly, as Bob21 does. There have been such members at every forum I have ever participated at. I just want to make it known who Bob21 is, and to have people take that into consideration when reading anything he posts. He is a casino guy with an agenda on these forums. Period!

I think I should clarify that I don't view casino personnel as the enemy. I don't draw those lines. I have two friends, one a very close friend that work as pit personnel here in Vegas.

But I do draw that line with people that come to these forums with a pro-casino industry, anti-AP agenda.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Listen, lady, you are not exactly a genius in selecting meaningful men in your life.

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So now you're going to sit in judgment of me and my life? Well, bris on you pother, you ain't so muckin fuch.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

To answer your question I do not like reading all the hate here and the ZenZone..

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Well DUH! Then DON'T READ IT.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

I hope everyone is not competing with each other here? That should not be our objectives. If the hate does not stop, sorry, if you do not see me continue fighting the battle. Moses, labled me right in that he thinks I did not sign up this shit.

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Then make like a tree and leaf. No one will even know you're gone.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

But I do draw that line with people that come to these forums with a pro-casino industry, anti-AP agenda.

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By all means, tell them everything. That should fix their little red wagons.

Moses wrote today at ZZ.

"Bob, Bob, BOB. No I do not think someone was ever backed off just for not tipping. However, the old saying, "what goes around, comes around." I believe opinions are solicited and if one is treating the staff like shit and taking advantage of their good nature, they will be backed off far faster than those who are playing nice. Point being, assholes can run off good customers. Nice players can get them to contribute more. If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game. The game of people played with cards should include tipping. Sort of like tithing in life. The forum AP world clearly plays a game of cards played by people. So they are always getting backed off, flipped off, spit at, and cussed at."


Mo, Mo, Mo it is quotes like the above that it is good that you are not on any regular blackjack boards. Others should know that you are talking about single deck bjackjack. Which requires a lot of real coperation with the dealer who is holding the cards in their hand. You need the dealer to work with you, and if they do, he/she absolutely expects to be rewarded. Working hand in hand up to a point. The dealer can make a single deck game playable or NOT. Many, many of those options single deck dealers have, are completely closed off to shoe game dealers by strick house procedures. You already know all of this but, always pretend you are playing the same game that everyone else is playing which it is not.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Moses wrote today at ZZ.

"Bob, Bob, BOB. No I do not think someone was ever backed off just for not tipping. However, the old saying, "what goes around, comes around." I believe opinions are solicited and if one is treating the staff like shit and taking advantage of their good nature, they will be backed off far faster than those who are playing nice. Point being, assholes can run off good customers. Nice players can get them to contribute more. If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game. The game of people played with cards should include tipping. Sort of like tithing in life. The forum AP world clearly plays a game of cards played by people. So they are always getting backed off, flipped off, spit at, and cussed at."


Mo, Mo, Mo it is quotes like the above that it is good that you are not on any regular blackjack boards. Others should know that you are talking about single deck bjackjack. Which requires a lot of real coperation with the dealer who is holding the cards in his hand. You need the dealer to work with you, and if they do, he/she absolutely expects to be rewarded. Working hand in hand up to a point. The dealer can make a single deck game playable or NOT. Many, many of those options single deck dealers have, are completely closed off to shoe game dealers by strick house procedures. You already know all of this but, always pretend you are playing the same game that everyone else is playing which it is not.

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I have stopped reading the character at ZZ, as I am just tired of dealing with the insanity. And as such I am unwilling to engage in any kind of discussion here with one of the other colorful personalities of his mind, like a UCFX. So all I have to go on is your quote Bosox, of which I have 2 comments.

1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits. :confused:

2.) The tipping that you (Bosox) described in your final paragraph, in reference to single deck, is in my opinion bordering on collusion and cheating. If it is with the understanding (even if unspoken) that your tip is getting you something that otherwise wouldn't be offered....that is collusion and cheating! Be hard to prove as far as criminal but that doesn't make it any less so.

This occurs in shoe games as well. Even when a notch is used for penetration, as it is in many shoe games, the dealer still has some discretion and there are things he can do, ways of holding the cards up against the shoe, that will allow that notch to line up deeper into the pack. So it is not limited to hand held games, although that is easier.

And while people will say that kind of unspoken thing, tips for deeper penetration has been occurring for decades, the question is what is next. If you are tipping handsomely, to what extent will the dealer go to? All of the sudden a few mistakes....a loss becomes a push, or you get paid on a push? It is a very slippery slope. So slippery in fact, that in my opinion, the casino industry shouldn't even allow tipping, thus eliminating that possibility of collusion.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits. :confused:

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Let me expand on this point just a bit in reference to a card counter in 2019 era.

For a shoe game my EV is just about $1 a round. A little more for deeper than normal penetration and about $1.50/round for games that I track a second table (whether I jump or not). But for the sake of this discussion, let's just go with a very typical 6 deck game, where I am only tracking one table. Very average penetration of 75%. Really standard mediocre game, found in Vegas and many locations.

So I sit down with 2 other players. This means on average just over 11 cards will be dealt per round (2.75 per player and dealer per round) so with the cut coming at 230 cards in, I am looking at 21 rounds.

So the count goes positive early and hits my max bet trigger about 2 decks in. This means I will have 10 or 11 rounds at Max bet. A nice situation. So let's say I am extremely fortunate, win a majority of these max bet opportunities and end up $2000 ahead at the shuffle. Now since I have shown my max bet, that shuffle point is my exit trigger. I am not going to play anymore at this table (probably not this casino) having shown my bet spread.

So I am leaving up $2000 after 21 rounds. So what is an appropriate tip? :confused: From the dealers perspective probably at least a green chip, maybe 2. Problem is my expected value, or expected win for those 21 rounds was $21. So a tip of $25 turns a +EV play into a negative EV play. If I tip at that rate every day, I am guaranteed to lose money by the end of the year, tipping away more than I earned. :rolleyes:

So what about a red chip ($5). That would be 25% of my expected value. :confused: That is still a lot of expected value to tip away, but suppose I did. I can guarantee, a $5 tip in that situation would be looked down on, maybe even worse than no tip...right dealer? (Bob21??)

Second issue is why am I tipping as I am leaving? What does that do for me?

Lastly, suppose I don't want to tip when leaving because I see no benefit. The alternative is to tip a few hands for the dealer as you are playing, so he is playing along with you. Again what is the appropriate amount? I am going to tip 2-3 hands of $5 of this 21 round play that is worth $21 to me? Again, THAT is tipping away most of my expected value or expected win. God forbid, I tip a few white ($1 chips) on hands that I am max betting, say $400. Again, this just isn't appreciated at all. even looked down on as worse than not tipping.

The bottom line is tips have to be a portion (very small portion) of "expected win" otherwise, you are tipping away all your profits and no dealer can understand that because 99% have no clue about EV.

So it is a no win situation in 2019 for a card counter. I mean maybe if we could roll back the clock, 30 years to when players sat at one table and played for 3-4 hours that would be different. Under that circumstance, with the game mentioned, I would accumulate probably $75, $80 an hour maybe $100, if the dealer was fast enough. In 3-4 hours, I would have $300-$400 in EV and could afford to tip $25 or $50. But this is 2019 and for a card counter that means short hit and run style, short sessions, and tipping isn't conducive with this style. It really isn't.

Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.

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Ok, well I am not going to further discuss anything to do with Moses. He has lost that privilege concerning me, much the same as Singer has. I mean anyone who's only response to someone that has a different opinion or questions things they do or say, is to go on personal attacks about someone's sexuality, race, nationality, is someone who doesn't exist as far as I am concerned.

I thank you for your compliment on my post. The tipping issue is one of those issue that players have strong opinions about. There really is no right or wrong answer. But I think it is important to understand the math and the basic math about card counting is that in 2019, with worse conditions than just 20 years ago, most card counters are playing to less than a 1% edge. Every little thing, tipping, cover plays, sub-optimal betting, playing through negative rounds, cuts into that already razor thin edge. And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? :rolleyes: Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day. :rolleyes:

Like I said, unless the dealer is really giving you something special for that tip, like much deeper penetration, I don't see it and frankly, that borders on collusion to me. It isn't how I want to win.

So having explained the math, let's look at a different angle. A lot of machine players, especially the grinders playing slightly +EV VP plays are also playing to a very small 1%(ish) edge. Do you see a lot of them tipping part of that razor thin 1% edge. I'm not talking about handpays, which the casino industry has guilted the players into believing they need to tip. I am talking about are machine players tipping a quarter or half percent of all their total action? :confused: Hey let's ask mickeycrimm: Mickey are you tipping part of your total action? :rolleyes: Of course not! And that is the equivalent of what we are talking about here.

You two goofballs have been writing about someone who was banned on February 22. Get over it.

Moses was banned. THE END

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? :rolleyes: Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day. :rolleyes:

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Correction: I should have wrote 25% of EV or .25% of total action. Gosh I hate the short edit time on this site.

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Originally Posted by UCFX

You two goofballs have been writing about someone who was banned on February 22. Get over it.

Moses was banned. THE END

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Moses was banned? Someone should tell him. He is still being read all through cyberspace. He is sort of a cross between a modern day Tokyo Rose and Wolfman Jack.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

So in catching up with some forum reading, including forums I now only occasionally read, I was reading the thread where the member known as Zee on several BJ forums, was banned from Colin's blackjack apprentice forum. Since BJA is a paid membership, Colin refunded Zee's membership.

I have a point to make concerning a member here, but before I do, I want to stray just a bit and say, I am not a huge fan of Colin or the BJ apprentice guys, not the guys personally, but the concept. I have no problem with former or active players writing books, but I don't think we need to be "recruiting" new players (competition). It is one thing to advise and share experiences with enthusiasts who have found this community, but the concept of "recruiting" and a "boot camp" churning out new players is not good for any of us active players. :( I have never not once visited the site, nor participated because of my views.

Ok, now back to my point. In reading that this Zee person was banned at BJ apprentice it was discussed that he becomes the second person ever banned at BJA. I mean this is a money-making proposition that makes money off memberships, so it goes without saying it becomes pretty hard to get banned and have them refuse your money. :rolleyes:

So who was the other person banned at this forum/money making/recruiting group? Why our very own Bob21, posting under whatever name he used there. :rolleyes: So why was 'our' Bob21 banned at BJ apprentice? :confused: Repeated views supporting the casino industry. :rolleyes: NO surprise! Same exact M.O. as here and everywhere else he has participated. Bob21 is a casino industry supporter. Likely works for a casino or has family or friends that do. And as such has anti-AP views and positions, despite his claims that he is a recreational card counter. This claim is likely cover for his positions and views.

Now it is OK, for Casino personnel to participate on these forums. Some do so openly as a couple at WoV do. I respect that, even though I rarely agree with anything they post or support. Many more casino personnel and/or supporters participate less openly, as Bob21 does. There have been such members at every forum I have ever participated at. I just want to make it known who Bob21 is, and to have people take that into consideration when reading anything he posts. He is a casino guy with an agenda on these forums. Period!

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Hey Kj, great post! I thought one of your better ones. You kinda made me feel special when you said “our very own Bob21”. Even though I’m on several forums (256 to be exact), I do kind of feel like this is my home base, since I like the way this forum is run. It’s by far the best one out there.

I was surprised the way this whole thing blew up on BJTF. Who knew it’d be just a select few, Zee and me, banned from BJA. It’s quite an honor that I don’t take lightly. How many APs do you think have got banned for being pro-tipping? I’ll bet I’m the first one. Only in the AP world. Got to love it. Lolo

I thought you brought up some good points about the difference between most Gambling sites and BJA. BJA actively recruits new players, which we all know is bad for all of us. I never quite thought about it the way you put it, but it makes sense.

This is why I’ve always thought parasite best describes what an AP does. I know it’s not a popular description, but I think it’s an accurate one. What is a parasite? It’s an organism that lives off its host. The host has to be healthy, or the parasite can’t survive. Too many parasites on a host and both the host and parasite die. A host can only support so many parasites, before it dies or finds a way to remove them.

While we all fantasize about winning so much money we “bring down the house”, in reality, we don’t want this to happen. If this happened, we wouldn’t have anywhere to go to make money. We need casinos to be healthy, so we can be healthy.

As you’ve stated, this is why it’s in all of our interest to not try to grow the number of APs. It doesn’t benift anybody (casino or AP), to have more parasites (I mean more APs) extracting money from a casino.

Anyway, just something to think about.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits. :confused:

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Let me expand on this point just a bit in reference to a card counter in 2019 era.

For a shoe game my EV is just about $1 a round. A little more for deeper than normal penetration and about $1.50/round for games that I track a second table (whether I jump or not). But for the sake of this discussion, let's just go with a very typical 6 deck game, where I am only tracking one table. Very average penetration of 75%. Really standard mediocre game, found in Vegas and many locations.

So I sit down with 2 other players. This means on average just over 11 cards will be dealt per round (2.75 per player and dealer per round) so with the cut coming at 230 cards in, I am looking at 21 rounds.

So the count goes positive early and hits my max bet trigger about 2 decks in. This means I will have 10 or 11 rounds at Max bet. A nice situation. So let's say I am extremely fortunate, win a majority of these max bet opportunities and end up $2000 ahead at the shuffle. Now since I have shown my max bet, that shuffle point is my exit trigger. I am not going to play anymore at this table (probably not this casino) having shown my bet spread.

So I am leaving up $2000 after 21 rounds. So what is an appropriate tip? :confused: From the dealers perspective probably at least a green chip, maybe 2. Problem is my expected value, or expected win for those 21 rounds was $21. So a tip of $25 turns a +EV play into a negative EV play. If I tip at that rate every day, I am guaranteed to lose money by the end of the year, tipping away more than I earned. :rolleyes:

So what about a red chip ($5). That would be 25% of my expected value. :confused: That is still a lot of expected value to tip away, but suppose I did. I can guarantee, a $5 tip in that situation would be looked down on, maybe even worse than no tip...right dealer? (Bob21??)

Second issue is why am I tipping as I am leaving? What does that do for me?

Lastly, suppose I don't want to tip when leaving because I see no benefit. The alternative is to tip a few hands for the dealer as you are playing, so he is playing along with you. Again what is the appropriate amount? I am going to tip 2-3 hands of $5 of this 21 round play that is worth $21 to me? Again, THAT is tipping away most of my expected value or expected win. God forbid, I tip a few white ($1 chips) on hands that I am max betting, say $400. Again, this just isn't appreciated at all. even looked down on as worse than not tipping.

The bottom line is tips have to be a portion (very small portion) of "expected win" otherwise, you are tipping away all your profits and no dealer can understand that because 99% have no clue about EV.

So it is a no win situation in 2019 for a card counter. I mean maybe if we could roll back the clock, 30 years to when players sat at one table and played for 3-4 hours that would be different. Under that circumstance, with the game mentioned, I would accumulate probably $75, $80 an hour maybe $100, if the dealer was fast enough. In 3-4 hours, I would have $300-$400 in EV and could afford to tip $25 or $50. But this is 2019 and for a card counter that means short hit and run style, short sessions, and tipping isn't conducive with this style. It really isn't.

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Okay Kj, I’m finally getting around to answering this thread. About tipping, here’s what can’t be menasured by the CVCX data and what you guys don’t get that only think in terms of EV. Tipping is also for longevity and to keep your local casinos viable. Read Stealth’s post on tipping on the thread about Zee and me getting banned from blackjack apprenticeship. I thought it was excellent!

I was going to comment on it, but Norm shut down the thread. Don’t know why because it was going good and generated a lot of interest. It had over 2,000 views in less than a week. Shows people were interested. Probably because Zee and I have become somewhat celebrities in the AP world. Lol.

As Stealth said, tipping depends on a lot of factors. There are no absolutes. When I lived on the east coast and played at MS and Foxwoods, I didn’t tip much. I also didn’t play much since I hated the games there. I have played in Atlantic City when I lived in Baltimore and also didn't tip much. These are big impersonal casinos where tipping won’t get you much.

But in a small rural area where everybody knows you, tipping gets you a lot. I doubt if I’d still be alive in my local casinos if I didn’t tip. This weekend I stayed at a casino and got comped for three nights room and food. This was worth at least $500. I would have never got this if the whole casinos staff (pit bosses, waitresses, dealers and hostess) didn’t like me. Even when they’re booked, they usually find a way to get me in, and it’s always comped. I know they have a couple rooms saved for their spur of the moment high rollers, and guys like me they like.

So yes, the casinos have been very very good to me! But you have to treat them with respect. It’s called the “golden rule”. Treat others like you’d like to treated. I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, but if you haven’t it’d be good for you to put it up somewhere in your house.

If I had to pay for my room and board in that area, I’d have been out a lot. So you bet you I tip. I’m not going to do some stupid CVCX sims to see how it impacts my overall EV. I could tip $500 (which I didn’t come close to), and I’d still be way ahead.

So when it comes to tipping, as for me and grandpa, we believe!

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.

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Ok, well I am not going to further discuss anything to do with Moses. He has lost that privilege concerning me, much the same as Singer has. I mean anyone who's only response to someone that has a different opinion or questions things they do or say, is to go on personal attacks about someone's sexuality, race, nationality, is someone who doesn't exist as far as I am concerned.

I thank you for your compliment on my post. The tipping issue is one of those issue that players have strong opinions about. There really is no right or wrong answer. But I think it is important to understand the math and the basic math about card counting is that in 2019, with worse conditions than just 20 years ago, most card counters are playing to less than a 1% edge. Every little thing, tipping, cover plays, sub-optimal betting, playing through negative rounds, cuts into that already razor thin edge. And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? :rolleyes: Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day. :rolleyes:

Like I said, unless the dealer is really giving you something special for that tip, like much deeper penetration, I don't see it and frankly, that borders on collusion to me. It isn't how I want to win.

So having explained the math, let's look at a different angle. A lot of machine players, especially the grinders playing slightly +EV VP plays are also playing to a very small 1%(ish) edge. Do you see a lot of them tipping part of that razor thin 1% edge. I'm not talking about handpays, which the casino industry has guilted the players into believing they need to tip. I am talking about are machine players tipping a quarter or half percent of all their total action? :confused: Hey let's ask mickeycrimm: Mickey are you tipping part of your total action? :rolleyes: Of course not! And that is the equivalent of what we are talking about here.

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Jean Scott set the standard for video poker years ago. $10 on a 1K royal and $20 on a 4K royal. As percentage of action it's between one one-thousandth and two one-thousanths.

As far as vulturing short term plays on video line games go there is pretty much no tipping, 5K and 10K must hits excluded. I generally put a hundred in on the first play then use the ticket cruising from machine to machine. When I'm though I hit the cashout kiosk. I never tip the kiosks. LOL!

Montana is a different story. It's money in ticket out and the ticket won't go in another machine. So I'm in a spot where I might have to make several cashouts while I'm there. You have to cash the tickets with the attendents. The thing about the short term advantages is win, lose or draw you always cash out a ticket. I quit the game when it's no longer in advantage mode. There's no such thing as losing all your credits then getting up and leaving. If it was a play when I sat down on it it's a play until it's no longer in advantage mode.

If I sit down on a game where 5 of the steps to get the bonus is already completed, it's at a 20% advantage, and the theoretical is a $50 earn, and I get stretched out to where I'm stuck $100 or $150, but I've completed 3 more steps to get the bonus, and now the theoretical from that point is 160%....there is no way in hell I'm going anywhere. What am I supposed to do, walk off from a 160% play and go find another 120% play. Doesn't make sense. About 80% of the plays are winners. The 20% losers is the cost of doing business.

With that said, I'm cashing out all the time and the attendent is looking for a tip. I have to cut them off at the pass. These are small intimate casinos, just 20 machines so the attendents are always right on the top of me asking if I want more coffee or change. So when he/she comes around I'll say something like "This machine is a pig! I'm already stuck $200." I'm setting them up for no tip. I don't tip on losing plays.

If I go $400 in and cash out a $300 ticket I'll say something like " I went $400 in on that machine and it finally gave me most of my money back." They get no tip.

If I go in $400 and cash out a $430 ticket I'll say "I sucked out for a $30 win." They get no tip.

I only tip on a decent sized win. And no more than $5.

My last few hand pays with my typical $20 tip seemed to garner nothing but resentment. Not even a thank you. I had a 10k jackpot that the attendant literally huffed as she was walking away with her boss and my $20.
I keep saying that I will not tip at all anymore unless a play requires it. I still tip and not sure why. I know a girl who works in a bar and she literally believes people are supposed to tip 10% of their jackpot. Reason being is most of her customers do.