Shout out to all Casino Spies

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed. I was in an argument with him about how I never get backed off or trespassed with backcounting AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW? All of a sudden I now get trespassed hahahhaha. You honestly cant make this up. This has happened time and time again when I post on the blackjack discord or in years past when I posted on blackjack the forum. Everytime I post chips, talk about how I never get backed off or whatever, I then get immediate heat at the casinos I frequent, backed off, or worse trespassed. This also happened to ZeebaBar on BJTF when he talked about never being backed off and all of a sudden he then starts getting backed off. Shit cracks me up.

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed. I was in an argument with him about how I never get backed off or trespassed with backcounting AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW? All of a sudden I now get trespassed hahahhaha. You honestly cant make this up. This has happened time and time again when I post on the blackjack discord or in years past when I posted on blackjack the forum. Everytime I post chips, talk about how I never get backed off or whatever, I then get immediate heat at the casinos I frequent, backed off, or worse trespassed. This also happened to ZeebaBar on BJTF when he talked about never being backed off and all of a sudden he then starts getting backed off. Shit cracks me up.

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit.

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OMG! Yep, KJ was behind you getting backed off. I also breed bedbugs and infested your living environment. I confess, I have sabotaged you every step of the way.

For the record, I don't think you have had a bigger supporter than me. Behind the scenes I PMed different AP's here in Vegas asking them to meet with you, and do whatever they could to help you. I PMed different members numerous times voicing my opinion that you were not being treated fairly at WoV, that the membership was ganging up on you and hoping for your failure and it wasn't right. I tried to get that message to Shackleford. I have shared my opinions with you both publicly and privately of different things including different casinos, and your method of play, including back-counting and including the dangers of back-counting.

You got backed off because your style....back counting is very obvious. Only thing I am surprised about is that it has taken this long.

It is funny that you mention Zeebabar, because you two are two peas in a pod. Zeebabar did things and numerous players including myself would tell him that continuing to do so would lead to heat and back offs. He laughed at all of us. "we didn't know what we were talking about". Next thing I know someone is sharing an entry in OSN if zeebabar, probably the most damaging entry I have seen. Clear picture of him, his name, date of birth, car and license plate number.

And guess what? That entry wasn't even made in Las Vegas, it was made in the Midwest. But I am responsible!?!?

You fucking guys! Take responsibility for your own shit. Don't be blaming everyone else for your mistakes. Especially when we told you ahead of time IT WAS A MISTAKE!

You know the old saying "we learn by our mistakes"?

The best part is we don't actually have to make all those mistakes. We can learn from other people (players) mistakes. That is what I have tried to do. Share my experiences and what I have learned along the way, often by my mistakes. And this is just what others before me did, allowing me to learn from their experiences and mistakes.

I do know that there were times some of the experienced guys that I look up to, advised me of something and I chose not to take that advice. WE all have that sort of stubborn streak in us from time to time. :rolleyes: But I am damn sure I never blamed anyone when I chose not to follow their good advise. No wonder so few players that have experienced any kind of success are really willing to share anything on these forums.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You know the old saying "we learn by our mistakes"?

The best part is we don't actually have to make all those mistakes. We can learn from other people (players) mistakes. That is what I have tried to do. Share my experiences and what I have learned along the way, often by my mistakes. And this is just what others before me did, allowing me to learn from their experiences and mistakes.

I do know that there were times some of the experienced guys that I look up to, advised me of something and I chose not to take that advice. WE all have that sort of stubborn streak in us from time to time. :rolleyes: But I am damn sure I never blamed anyone when I chose not to follow their good advise. No wonder so few players that have experienced any kind of success are really willing to share anything on these forums.

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I agree kj. I’ve actually learned quite a bit from your posts, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thank you!

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

I’ve noticed within the AP community whenever someone’s opinion doesn’t agree with someone else’s opinion, APs immediately label that person a troll. I’m going to be covering this in my bootcamp for APs to try to help APs understand what a troll is.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed..

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As Moses puts it regarding ZenKing. The kid has guts. Nothing would surprise anyone about KJ. He is "ShrinKing."

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit

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You chose a tough business. With all due respect, the forums are not the right place to vent your frustrations though. You have the right to remain silent, anything you say, can, and will be used against you. Hence, you're on stage and you have no idea who is in the audience. Perhaps a racquet ball court would better serve you as a place to let it go. Moses prediction? You will be successful in life. It might not be in the blackjack arena at this time. We wish you all the best. :D

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed. I was in an argument with him about how I never get backed off or trespassed with backcounting AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW? All of a sudden I now get trespassed hahahhaha. You honestly cant make this up. This has happened time and time again when I post on the blackjack discord or in years past when I posted on blackjack the forum. Everytime I post chips, talk about how I never get backed off or whatever, I then get immediate heat at the casinos I frequent, backed off, or worse trespassed. This also happened to ZeebaBar on BJTF when he talked about never being backed off and all of a sudden he then starts getting backed off. Shit cracks me up.

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit.

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You're a complete fucking fool. Get back in your cage with the rest of the zoo assholes at WOV.

Hard to believe any AP could be this fucked up.

Take a fucking walk...

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You know the old saying "we learn by our mistakes"?

The best part is we don't actually have to make all those mistakes. We can learn from other people (players) mistakes. That is what I have tried to do. Share my experiences and what I have learned along the way, often by my mistakes. And this is just what others before me did, allowing me to learn from their experiences and mistakes.

I do know that there were times some of the experienced guys that I look up to, advised me of something and I chose not to take that advice. WE all have that sort of stubborn streak in us from time to time. :rolleyes: But I am damn sure I never blamed anyone when I chose not to follow their good advise. No wonder so few players that have experienced any kind of success are really willing to share anything on these forums.

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I agree kj. I’ve actually learned quite a bit from your posts, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thank you!

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

I’ve noticed within the AP community whenever someone’s opinion doesn’t agree with someone else’s opinion, APs immediately label that person a troll. I’m going to be covering this in my bootcamp for APs to try to help APs understand what a troll is.

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Stanford Wong (aka John Ferguson) is a blackjack expert, and a Hall of Famer when it comes to blackjack. He also occasionally steps into other types of gambling, where he really has no expertise, and he seems to not understand that he lacks expertise in those non-blackjack endeavors. This has consequences. I'm not sure what exactly comprises the "AP community," but I can tell you that in the larger "gambling community," Mr. Ferguson is not always considered God's gift to gamblers.

Bob21, again, I have to commend you for figuring out what endeavors have "value to society" and which ones do not. Brilliance such as yours should be rewarded every day of your life.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

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Yes, bob21, I do know who Stanford Wong is. I have met Stanford Wong. I have played video blackjack with Stanford Wong at the Westin. He taught me some tricks to beating video blackjack.

I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.

And Redietz is quite right about Stanford Wong. He is a blackjack expert. But I don't agree with everything he does, feels, believes or says. For example, I never appreciated his gambling consultant work for the casino industry. I believe you pick a side, not play both. :rolleyes: But that is just me.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You know the old saying "we learn by our mistakes"?

The best part is we don't actually have to make all those mistakes. We can learn from other people (players) mistakes. That is what I have tried to do. Share my experiences and what I have learned along the way, often by my mistakes. And this is just what others before me did, allowing me to learn from their experiences and mistakes.

I do know that there were times some of the experienced guys that I look up to, advised me of something and I chose not to take that advice. WE all have that sort of stubborn streak in us from time to time. :rolleyes: But I am damn sure I never blamed anyone when I chose not to follow their good advise. No wonder so few players that have experienced any kind of success are really willing to share anything on these forums.

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I agree kj. I’ve actually learned quite a bit from your posts, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thank you!

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

I’ve noticed within the AP community whenever someone’s opinion doesn’t agree with someone else’s opinion, APs immediately label that person a troll. I’m going to be covering this in my bootcamp for APs to try to help APs understand what a troll is.

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Stanford Wong (aka John Ferguson) is a blackjack expert, and a Hall of Famer when it comes to blackjack. He also occasionally steps into other types of gambling, where he really has no expertise, and he seems to not understand that he lacks expertise in those non-blackjack endeavors. This has consequences. I'm not sure what exactly comprises the "AP community," but I can tell you that in the larger "gambling community," Mr. Ferguson is not always considered God's gift to gamblers.

Bob21, again, I have to commend you for figuring out what endeavors have "value to society" and which ones do not. Brilliance such as yours should be rewarded every day of your life.

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Look this is my opinion. I get it’s not everyone’s opinion. Heck, there are liberals who believe welfare people add value to our society by stimulating our economy, spending the money our government gives them for sitting on their asses.

So I get that everybody won’t agree with me. If there are people who think welfare recipients add value to society, then, of course, there will be people who think APs add value to society.

Here’s a serious question. Can you please explain to me what value an AP brings to society? So far I haven’t had one AP be able to do that. All they say is the money is better in their hands then in casino personnel and government’s hands. That’s a judgment call and no one really knows if that’s correct.

No need to pick a side.
No need to run and hide
Play the game to win
Not the forums to spin

KJs fantasy world is shrinking. Your rants and recants are predictable.

You are using an outdated model bob21. No longer does everyone "make" something. No longer is everyone a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. Many, many occupations contribute nothing, often sort of middlemen or paper pushers. A lot of the finance world falls into this category.

Today's economy is driven by spending. As long as a person makes the money legally they are fueling the economy. The argument can be made that illegal money spent does as well, but I don't want to go there.

Your comparison of an AP to a welfare recipient is deranged. Employees of the casino industry, who look the other way concerning the predatory industry they work for, an industry who's success is directly tied to people's misfortune and specifically preys on the elderly and less fortunate, are much closer to the welfare recipient in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by UCFX

No need to pick a side.
No need to run and hide
Play the game to win
Not the forums to spin

KJs fantasy world is shrinking. Your rants and recants are predictable.

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Shut up hoMoses, you literally demented freak. Stay in your lane. That is over at the funny farm entitled ZZ.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by UCFX

No need to pick a side.
No need to run and hide
Play the game to win
Not the forums to spin

KJs fantasy world is shrinking. Your rants and recants are predictable.

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Shut up hoMoses, you literally demented freak.

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Poor poor KJ. You're scared. Put your thumb back in your mouth. No one believes your lies anymore.

Bob. There is the corporate world and the peoples world. I sit in staff meetings every morning listening to concerns about budgets, stockholders, cut backs, and whatever in the corporate world. Then I volunteer my time at night to make sure the residents are served dinner because we are understaffed. Why are we understaffed? Because welfare recipients have learned it's more lucrative than finding a job.

Then, of course, we have some mid 30s guy claiming to make $100k annually playing a game. Anyone can see between the lines of his lies and fairy tales. Makes me want to puke.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed. I was in an argument with him about how I never get backed off or trespassed with backcounting AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW? All of a sudden I now get trespassed hahahhaha. You honestly cant make this up. This has happened time and time again when I post on the blackjack discord or in years past when I posted on blackjack the forum. Everytime I post chips, talk about how I never get backed off or whatever, I then get immediate heat at the casinos I frequent, backed off, or worse trespassed. This also happened to ZeebaBar on BJTF when he talked about never being backed off and all of a sudden he then starts getting backed off. Shit cracks me up.

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit.

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At least you won't get banned over here. Rant away, no matter how foolish it may all sound.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You are using an outdated model bob21. No longer does everyone "make" something. No longer is everyone a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. Many, many occupations contribute nothing, often sort of middlemen or paper pushers. A lot of the finance world falls into this category.

Today's economy is driven by spending. As long as a person makes the money legally they are fueling the economy. The argument can be made that illegal money spent does as well, but I don't want to go there.

Your comparison of an AP to a welfare recipient is deranged. Employees of the casino industry, who look the other way concerning the predatory industry they work for, an industry who's success is directly tied to people's misfortune and specifically preys on the elderly and less fortunate, are much closer to the welfare recipient in my opinion.

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You’re missing it kj. I get that some jobs aren’t involved in making things. Like you said, there are a lot of middle people between financial transactions. These people add value, otherwise those jobs wouldn’t exists. There are a lot of people sitting in offices doing something of value for their company, otherwise the company would eliminate those jobs.

The ONLY value created in a casino is that of entertainment. One more time, the casino’s business model is provide negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment. If this is NOT their business model, please explain what it is.

An AP extracting money from a casino is adding NO value to society. Other than welfare, it’s the only legal way to earn a living without adding value to society.

Yes, you spend money you win in casinos but if you didn’t win this money, it’d be in the hands of someone else (casino personel or our government) and they’d spend it. You’ve created no value by winning this money. You’ve done nothing to help society or the economy. That’s my only point. I get you’re doing nothing illegal.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Yes, you spend money you win in casinos but if you didn’t win this money, it’d be in the hands of someone else (casino personel or our government) and they’d spend it. You’ve created no value by winning this money. You’ve done nothing to help society or the economy. That’s my only point. I get you’re doing nothing illegal.

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You do not know what the fuck you are talking about Bob. AP's who have won money also invest or put that money into banks who in turn loan it out to people buying homes, cars etc. Banks also loan out money to people starting out small businesses who create jobs. For you to say that AP,s create no value by winning money, or do nothing to help society or the economy is just stupid and narrowmindedness on your part.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

[QUOTE

An AP extracting money from a casino is adding NO value to society. Other than welfare, it’s the only legal way to earn a living without adding value to society.

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Oh I almost missed this one above Bob, Gotcha again Meatball Head. You can not compare an AP who EARNS their money with someone who is on welfare who is given money. You are giving welfare people to much credit as they do not earn period.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

To all the braindead casino spies in here, thanks again for ratting me out. Just got trespassed today. Wouldn't be surprised if KJ was behind all of this as he knows several pit people as he claimed. I was in an argument with him about how I never get backed off or trespassed with backcounting AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW? All of a sudden I now get trespassed hahahhaha. You honestly cant make this up. This has happened time and time again when I post on the blackjack discord or in years past when I posted on blackjack the forum. Everytime I post chips, talk about how I never get backed off or whatever, I then get immediate heat at the casinos I frequent, backed off, or worse trespassed. This also happened to ZeebaBar on BJTF when he talked about never being backed off and all of a sudden he then starts getting backed off. Shit cracks me up.

So shout out to all you idiot casino spies that hate your lives. You can't stop me and no one in this city including casinos can stop me. 86 me 500 times, it wont do anything. Let's go to court so I can win, go ahead try me. After I get the case thrown out each and every time, I'll keep coming back and back and back and there's nothing you or any of your gay ass casino buddies or casino owners can do besides change the game in this city. You guys better those 6-5 blackjack tables rolling out ASAP. Also let me give an honorable mention shout out to all the droned out immoral security guards who follow immoral orders for a paycheck. Anything for your little gay ass paycheck right? Fuck morals, fuck ethics, fuck the future of society, as long as i get a paycheck let me do what my boss tells me to do. Yup, thats the ticket and society we all live in folks. You guys are all obsessed with money to the point no one gives a fuck about anything in relation to standing up for what's right. Good job, no wonder this society is full of ignorant immoral scum and why this country has gone to absolute shit.

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You're a complete fucking fool. Get back in your cage with the rest of the zoo assholes at WOV.

Hard to believe any AP could be this fucked up.

Take a fucking walk...

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Unbelievable. I actually agree with Blackhole on something. This ZK idiot doesn't deserve any of the help he's been given by the AP community. He's an ungrateful piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Yes, you spend money you win in casinos but if you didn’t win this money, it’d be in the hands of someone else (casino personel or our government) and they’d spend it. You’ve created no value by winning this money. You’ve done nothing to help society or the economy. That’s my only point. I get you’re doing nothing illegal.

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You do not know what the fuck you are talking about Bob. AP's who have won money also invest or put that money into banks who in turn loan it out to people buying homes, cars etc. Banks also loan out money to people starting out small businesses who create jobs. For you to say that AP,s create no value by winning money, or do nothing to help society or the economy is just stupid and narrowmindedness on your part.

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Hey Bobo, I get there are some APs that invest their money wisely, which helps the economy. No debate there. There are also people on welfare that do the same thing.

What I’m debating is IF there is any value created when the money is won. I’m saying NO, no value was created when this money was won.

The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment.

If I’m wrong, please explain to me the value an AP creates by winning money. You can’t, because no value has been created. It’s the only job that makes money without creating value. That’s my point.

The similarity between welfare people and APs is that they both get their money by creating no value. Welfare receipts get theirs from the government for doing nothing, while APs get their money from the government’s voluntary tax centers (casinos) by playing casino games in a positive EV way.

If an AP isn’t very good, they can actually lose all their money at our government’s voluntary tax centers (casinos). What do some of them do then? They can go on welfare and get a check straight from the government.

Bob21 wrote:

"The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

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No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

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No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

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That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

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No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

---

That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

---

Any AP that sweats a loss is playing above his/her means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoSox

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

---

That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

---

Nothing you just said applies to me. The AP's that survive do not worry about short term negative swings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

---

I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.

---

Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

Alan, I thought this was an excellent post. One thing I’ve found interesting about APs is they will never acknowledge the casino’s business model. When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.

I’ve always wondered why APs are so reluctant to acknowledge casinos provide entertainment as their value to society. It’s most likely because then an AP would feel guilty about taking advantage of a business who’s primary purpose is to provide entertainment.

Most people work at a job that provides some sort of value to society. An AP intuitively knows the way they make money provides no value to society. I think this is why full-time APs struggle going through life. I might be wrong but that’s what I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.

---

Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.

The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.

---

Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.

---

Kewlj you're right. Casinos are evil. Let's shut them all down tomorrow.

Now, what are you going to do to earn $85,000 a year?

Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.

---

Alan I am sorry that you take offense that I and others think you have some degenerate gambling addiction.

No, everyone that visits casinos that is not an AP is not a degenerate gambler. There are many, many people that visit casinos occasionally for entertainment purposes.

I don't know what the rules are, as far as frequency and money spent. But certain behaviors indicate a problem. Some of those behaviors would include.

Someone that visit a a casino almost daily (who isn't playing with an advantage and making money)

Someone that loses more than they can afford. (to the point that family members post their concerns on a public forum)

Someone who's gambling life interferes with relationships with family members and grandchildren (again posted on public forum)

Someone who moves to Las Vegas so they can gamble everyday.

Someone who is broke halfway through the month.

Someone who has numerous relationships/marriages that went bad because of their gambling.

and finally someone who gets married in a casino! While you think this is cute and comical, it highlights a very unhealthy obsession.

I know you are going to get all mad and probably nasty about these comments. It's just fact.


Now the grey area would be someone that does visits casinos everyday or numerous times a week, and gambles but gambles within their means. Maybe someone with a very healthy retirement (like the guy here that pretends he is in that situation). These people aren't broke halfway through the month. They can afford what they lose. It is truly entertainment.

I would equate that to some retired or well-off person that lives on or near a gold course and plays golf everyday. I mean it probably still falls under addition or obsessive behavior, but at least they are doing so within their means. THAT doesn't appear to be the case with those on this forum. And one big clue to that is just how bitter several members here are towards those that have actually learned and work at making money.

Finally my hard work has paid off!!
For over a year now I have been handing out flyers to every dealer, pit boss and security guard I run into.
I was about to give up on this mission but this thread has confirmed that what I am doing is working.
I need to order more printer paper and ink to get the word out against these evil doers.

Please keep posting all information that you can on the web.
It really helps when most of you doxx yourself as you have already done many times over.
Thanks Again!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.

---

Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

---

I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.

---

Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.

---

Here is the direct quote from Stanford Wong:

“My advice is to keep advantage play part-time. Do something else with the major part of your time, something more valuable to society. You will find that more satisfying than becoming a full-time advantage player.”

Where did I find this quote? In the book “I am a card counter”, by Frank Scoblete, published 2014, page 102.

If that is no longer Stanford Wong’s view on APing then he should contact Frank Scoblete and have him take this out of his book. If Al Rogers thinks being a full-time AP is a good career choice than my view of Al Rogers has gone down several notches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.

---

Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.

---

The lack of etiquette at craps is disturbing and only gets worse. I had no patience for hands on the table and late bets. I am not proud but I was known to fire dice at someone’s head that wouldn’t keep hands up. And I just wouldn’t allow it when I was dealing, especially when I was on stick. I did crack em with the stick too many times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.

---

Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.

---

Kewlj you're right. Casinos are evil. Let's shut them all down tomorrow.

Now, what are you going to do to earn $85,000 a year?

---

Ahem. that's $100K a year. lol Getting a job wouldn't work. Who would hire him? You'd have fire everyone he didn't like after a week to him to shut up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.

---

Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.

---

The lack of etiquette at craps is disturbing and only gets worse. I had no patience for hands on the table and late bets. I am not proud but I was known to fire dice at someone’s head that wouldn’t keep hands up. And I just wouldn’t allow it when I was dealing, especially when I was on stick. I did crack em with the stick too many times.

---

Hands. Don't get me started. The worst is when some tourist is explaining the game to another tourist and starts pointing to the printed numbers and words on the layout -- while the dice are headed right to where they are.

Late bets kill a good roll. No, it's not a superstition. When a player throws in a late bet, just when the shooter is about to let go of the dice, the shooter will change his delivery... and sometimes that means the dice go off the table or into the bank of chips.

One other thing I can't understand. Why must players stand at the far ends of the tables and place their passline chips where everyone is throwing their dice? Everyone wants to avoid hitting chips. So why not stand on the sides or in the corners and leave the back wall area free and clear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.

---

Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.

---

Like most jobs, there are parts of it that are fun and parts of it that aren't so fun. The actual gambling part isn't particularly fun, unless I'm on a game that's actually fun to play -- like some variants of VP, sometimes slots can be fun (although I'm not usually playing a "fun" slot if I'm playing one), and of course, if the advantage is upfront and you're making money then and there (as opposed to something that takes weeks or months to profit off of).

The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular job.

At least for me, I think it's kinda cool to be able to beat a casino at their own game. It's also entrepreneur-y, IMO, where I would rather provide for myself. I don't want to work for someone else, because that means I'm getting paid less than the money I'm bringing in.

Sometimes you gotta worry & dodge management, but for the most part, not really. Obviously I'm going to try to pay attention to my surroundings in case I see something that looks a little fishy.


Not sure why you think we think everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling is a degenerate. Just because we view you as a degen doesn't mean we view every other person in a casino a degen. It is telling, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?

---

Why do you care so much about us proving our claims? If anything, there is plenty of proof on here and WOV for you to figure it out -- too much proof for my liking, but whatever. It is, simply put, just math. If you can't do even basic math, then you're gonna have a tough time figuring it out.

IME, $800/hr plays aren't available 24/7, and I don't think anyone has made that claim, either. Finding the play is most of the work.


Lol @ edge & variance comparison. You need a refresher on math.



So the ONLY AP that you know, and it isn't surprising you only know one with a low income because most APs would avoid you like the plague, is basically your entire view of what APs are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoSox

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

---

That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

---

What losses? I rarely have a losing day. It's like taking candy from a baby. At least for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.

---

Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all. You wouldn't comprehend


If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?Keep licking those windows. I'll drop a box of crayons off to the stickman at Red Rock 4 you.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

---

Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.

---

Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?

---

Alan, I don't care if you believe me or not. I owe you no proof. Believe what you want to. I don't care. And your AP buddy. No offense to him but he is not very talented. What he makes in a year I make in about a month. But if you don't believe that I don't give a rat's ass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoSox

Bob21 wrote:

"The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.

---

Ok Bosox, I get you and your AP buddies aren’t entertained when you’re in a casinos. It’s work for you. I understand that.

But what about the majority of people? Why do you think they go to casinos?

Also, what do you believe a casino’s business model is? So far, I haven t found been able to find an AP who has been able to answer this question.

It's great having boob21 on block. Don't have to read his ignorant blather anymore. Now, for all of you that continue to read and engage him let me make a prediction. When you zig he will zag and when you zag he will zig. Who in the hell wants to read his stupid ignorant shit? I don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

It's great having boob21 on block. Don't have to read his ignorant blather anymore. Now, for all of you that continue to read and engage him let me make a prediction. When you zig he will zag and when you zag he will zig. Who in the hell wants to read his stupid ignorant shit? I don't.

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Hey Mickey, if I’m on “block”, how are you able to respond to me immediately after I post?

I’m just curious how the block function works, because whenever someone blocks me I usually get more replies from them, always reminding me they have blocked.

You can’t make this stuff up. Only in the AP world.

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Originally Posted by RS__

The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.

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RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by BoSox

Bob21 wrote:

"The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.

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Ok Bosox, I get you and your AP buddies aren’t entertained when you’re in a casinos. It’s work for you. I understand that.

But what about the majority of people? Why do you think they go to casinos?

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Insecurities, irresponsibilitiies, and false perceptions not necessarily in that order. Basically it boils down to many people are only living in the moment and are incapable of thinking about tomorrow which they really do not want to do. A need to impress friends and others with a care less attitudes who think incorrectly that they are fooling someone.


"Also, what do you believe a casino’s business model is?"


Literally putting on a facade that make people think they are having a good time, while simultaneously emptying their wallets.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by RS__

The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.

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RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.

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The difference is, I don't need to "take vacation days". If I want to go somewhere, I go. I don't need to try to see if "they'll let me" and plan a month+ in advance. If I want to watch cat videos and Netflix all day, then I do that. If there's something I gotta do, then I go in the morning....or afternoon....or at night....or tomorrow or the next day, or whenever I want to go. I don't have to answer to a boss, I don't have to follow a dress code or wear a uniform. There is definitely some rigidity in scheduling, but it is nowhere near that of a regular job. So no, the freedom and flexibility aspect is totally 100% different.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by BoSox

No Alan I never understood the concept.
I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

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That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

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What losses? I rarely have a losing day. It's like taking candy from a baby. At least for me.

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You make it sound so simple Mick, and for you it is because of a few simple facts. You have work ethic and discipline, which most don’t. You are willing to do the leg work on determining if a play makes sense, are smart enough to use others finds and refine them. You have the discipline to only play when it makes sense and the work ethic to get out and find the plays.

This isn’t a Mick admiration post, it’s reality. And the reality is most doubters on here and in the public couldn’t do it even if they wanted to because they lack these basics. And they are the same basics that most successful people in life exhibit.

And back to where this thread started, does anyone think ZK has these skills? Of course not but no one could tell him that because he refused to listen. He knows better.

It would be easy to say the things I would love to on WoV about him, and I could with no repercussions here. But honestly my only concern is him causing harm to others when the money is gone (which will happen) and he feels the casinos are to blame.

Some of us know his name, have read his rants and I only hope nothing ever happens with him that makes me or others wonder if we should have warned someone. Sounds dramatic, but maybe someone did and that’s why he is getting backed off. Who knows if it is an act, but something is seriously wrong with him mentally and I wouldn’t want to be near him if he ever snaps.

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by RS__

The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.

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RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.

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The difference is, I don't need to "take vacation days". If I want to go somewhere, I go. I don't need to try to see if "they'll let me" and plan a month+ in advance. If I want to watch cat videos and Netflix all day, then I do that. If there's something I gotta do, then I go in the morning....or afternoon....or at night....or tomorrow or the next day, or whenever I want to go. I don't have to answer to a boss, I don't have to follow a dress code or wear a uniform. There is definitely some rigidity in scheduling, but it is nowhere near that of a regular job. So no, the freedom and flexibility aspect is totally 100% different.

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Good reply. I think it really depends on what type of job you’re taking about. I think most white color office jobs are pretty relaxed these days. I know I can take off anytime I want without any prior approval. I extend the same policy to the people who work for me. They can call me up that morning and tell me they aren't coming to work for whatever reason, and I’m good with it. For the most part, no one takes advantage of me. Well maybe one lady, but she still gets her work done. I trust people and treat them like I’d want to be treated.

The dress code has also got more relaxed at most jobs. We can wear jeans to work now, where no one did that 20 years ago.

I think you’re referring to manufacturing and blue color jobs. Yeah, those are a little more strick on rules for taking a day off.

The key is to find something you enjoy and make money at. If you enjoy the full-time AP life, then more power to you.

When I retire, I do plan on doing more APing. I enjoy it and I’ve paid our government so much tax, it’ll be time for me to try to get some of it back through APing.

To get this back on track, nobody is spying on or ratting out ZK. Backcounters are painfully obvious!

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.

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Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.

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Here is the direct quote from Stanford Wong:

“My advice is to keep advantage play part-time. Do something else with the major part of your time, something more valuable to society. You will find that more satisfying than becoming a full-time advantage player.”

Where did I find this quote? In the book “I am a card counter”, by Frank Scoblete, published 2014, page 102.

If that is no longer Stanford Wong’s view on APing then he should contact Frank Scoblete and have him take this out of his book. If Al Rogers thinks being a full-time AP is a good career choice than my view of Al Rogers has gone down several notches.

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Hey Kj, did you ever get back to Al Rogers to see if Stanford Wong agrees he made this quote? In your previous post, you said Stanford Wong has backed away from this position.

To me it’s not a big deal, but it appears to be within the AP community. I just want to know if I can continue to use this quote from Wong, since it aligns with my views on APing.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

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The casino had an edge when you hit your $100000+ natural royal flush, are you going to ask them the same question ?
It depends on how large the variance is. People won't play games that have too large a variance and these types of games will get pulled from the floor - so game designers must design games where the variance is low enough for this not to happen - this results in a variance where an edge is valuable enough to vulture/AP much of the time.

The big lotteries are a good example of this. Even if the JP makes them +EV, the variance is so huge that it's not worth it. Table games progressives are another good example of this.

Jbjb the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial.

You guys are right, you don't have to prove anything and since I no longer own this forum or moderate it and since the content here is no reflection on my standards for accuracy and truthfulness, by all means, keep posting your claims. But keep in mind that it is unlikely I'm the only one doubting your claims. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Jbjb the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial.

You guys are right, you don't have to prove anything and since I no longer own this forum or moderate it and since the content here is no reflection on my standards for accuracy and truthfulness, by all means, keep posting your claims. But keep in mind that it is unlikely I'm the only one doubting your claims. Carry on.

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I don't know what you mean by "the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial."

As for anyone's claims. It doesn't matter. I've said before the fact that casinos bar people and are so paranoid that they use services like OSN, Biometrica, etc. is proof enough. We aren't here to prove anything to anyone and you should be the same.

My apologies jbjb. It was RS__ who wrote "At least for me, I think it's kinda cool to be able to beat a casino at their own game. It's also entrepreneur-y,..."

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

My apologies jbjb. It was RS__ who wrote "
At least for me, I think it's kinda cool to be able to beat a casino at their own game. It's also entrepreneur-y,..."

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Personally, I don't want to "beat the casino." I just want to make money at casino games. I'm only winning money other player have already lost.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Jbjb the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial.

You guys are right, you don't have to prove anything and since I no longer own this forum or moderate it and since the content here is no reflection on my standards for accuracy and truthfulness, by all means, keep posting your claims. But keep in mind that it is unlikely I'm the only one doubting your claims. Carry on.

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Wo cares?