Winning and using players card

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04-01-2019, 07:28 PM
DGenBen

Winning and using players card

Hello Forum,

I actually have a gambling question non related to any type of trolling or attacking Lol.

Recently started vulturing and have been running very hot. Gotten very lucky and have hit a few hand pays recently at the same casino, an Indian casino outside Nevada. Always use my players card and get great comps, but starting to get concerned if I am only focusing on vulterable machines and consistenty winning (I realize I have been lucky too so dont always expect to run this hot) is being barred a legitimate concern?

In reading this and other forums I have seen everything from always use your players card for the comps to you should pull your card or not use it when you have a strong advantage so you dont get barred to a casino is never gonna ban you for winning on slots and honestly a little confused on this whole issue.

Any thoughts anyone with knowledge of this could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
04-01-2019, 08:03 PM
smurgerburger

Anyone who wins over enough play will get backed off. Mickey has mentioned this happening to him specifically for slot play.

It should take quite a lot of play though. They know people can run hot.
04-01-2019, 08:50 PM
DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Anyone who wins over enough play will get backed off. Mickey has mentioned this happening to him specifically for slot play.

It should take quite a lot of play though. They know people can run hot.

Thank you for responding Smurgerburger. Makes sense. Do you or anyone else have an opinion on what type of coin in and time frame would start drawing heat? I.E. if your up for 30 days with 50k coin in no one will bat an eye but if your up for say six months of regular play with $500k coin in then you can start expecting some heat?

Thanks again!
04-01-2019, 10:50 PM
RS__

Depends on the type of vulturing IMO. If it’s UX or anything else with one or a few spins, don’t bother. If it’s a progressive that you may be on for a while, then use it.
04-02-2019, 08:21 AM
Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
04-02-2019, 08:34 AM
slingshot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

But Alan! If you can have the casino even hint of backing you off- why it's a badge of honor! They hope players believe they can have control over winning and not vice versa!
04-02-2019, 09:25 AM
DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Thank you for the responses. I understand that handpays will be tracked whether I use my card or not but of the amount I am currently ahead year to date about half is from handpays and the rest is from smaller wins which is why I was posing the question.
04-02-2019, 10:01 AM
kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
04-02-2019, 10:15 AM
DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

Thank you Kewlj that is excellent information. On certain mchiines with persistent wilds, I was pulling my card when I had several wilds lined up so I knew the next spin was going to be a large pay. A friendly old timer that I had met and spoken with previously happened to notice me doing this and told me that pulling your card in this situation will not prevent you from being tracked as I still had the same ticket in the machine that I was using for carded play. He said if I really wanted to avoid being tracked I would have to pull out my card, cash out the ticket and put new money in to play off the wilds. It make sense that they could track you this way be wondering if any knows if they actually do or if there is a way to tell?
04-02-2019, 10:40 AM
Alan Mendelson

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

Thank you Kewlj that is excellent information. On certain mchiines with persistent wilds, I was pulling my card when I had several wilds lined up so I knew the next spin was going to be a large pay. A friendly old timer that I had met and spoken with previously happened to notice me doing this and told me that pulling your card in this situation will not prevent you from being tracked as I still had the same ticket in the machine that I was using for carded play. He said if I really wanted to avoid being tracked I would have to pull out my card, cash out the ticket and put new money in to play off the wilds. It make sense that they could track you this way be wondering if any knows if they actually do or if there is a way to tell?

Card pulling doesn't work. Once you start the play it's recorded.

I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM Grand and NYNY and it's no badge of honor. It was actually ridiculous because I was just lucky.
04-02-2019, 11:17 AM
kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

Well, I really need to correct myself on this one. :rolleyes: My bad. Obviously not any or every winning player gets banned at these ultra sweaty joints. But they are fast to back of players, so fast that they end up backing off some completely regular winning players.
04-02-2019, 12:02 PM
Bob21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

Well, I really need to correct myself on this one. :rolleyes: My bad. Obviously not any or every winning player gets banned at these ultra sweaty joints. But they are fast to back of players, so fast that they end up backing off some completely regular winning players.

Yeah, casinos make mistakes from time to time. Good point Sherlock!

Here’s a news flash for all APs. Casinos are like all business, they make mistakes occasionally. You know why this happens? Because they are run by humans and humans aren’t perfect.

Hey kj, you never answered my question? Did you check with Al Rogers to see if the quote I found from Stanford Wong is correct? Can I still use it, or has Stanford changed his mind?
04-02-2019, 06:55 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

"One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.
04-02-2019, 07:10 PM
regnis

They used to run a sting here where the big gamblers were invited to a super bowl party with premium food and booze and big prizes. Then once they had them all there they were all busted either for book making or illegal gambling. I snuck out the kitchen once and never returned to any other similar invites.

They also busted a legit super bowl party where there was a huge poker game every year. One of the major players was the mayor.
04-02-2019, 07:20 PM
kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

"One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.

What? Documentation? Court discovery? WTF are you talking about?

What I am talking about is a blackjack "promotion" where blackjack AP's showed up and were immediately 86ed. I can recall two such cases, one here in Vegas.

I didn't say this occurred to slot players / AP's. But the climate is now changing for machine AP's. I would be aware of the possibility (if I was a machine AP). The rules are changing that's all I am saying.

Usually these "sting" promos are not advertised to the general public. They target AP's, through mail and emails. I am not a legal expert but I would guess it is the small print, that always says something about any promo can be cancelled at any time at the casino's discretion, that frees them from any liability.
04-02-2019, 07:33 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

"One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.

What? Documentation? Court discovery? WTF are you talking about?

What I am talking about is a blackjack "promotion" where blackjack AP's showed up and were immediately 86ed. I can recall two such cases, one here in Vegas.

I didn't say this occurred to slot players / AP's. But the climate is now changing for machine AP's. I would be aware of the possibility (if I was a machine AP). The rules are changing that's all I am saying.

Usually these "sting" promos are not advertised to the general public. They target AP's, through mail and emails. I am not a legal expert but I would guess it is the small print, that always says something about any promo can be cancelled at any time at the casino's discretion, that frees them from any liability.

Sorry I may have misunderstood. I thought you were claiming they were doing this with slots now. Sure they can cancel a promo. I don't think they can run a promo for the purpose of banning AP's, at least not a public promo. Let me ask more about the stings you do know about. More details please. It's a very interesting subject. Are they doing it one person at a time, in small groups? How many times do you know where you are 100% sure this is what was going on? I'm just wondering if any casino has ever admitted doing this or if it was somehow proven or if any darksider has suggested this and then it happend.
04-02-2019, 07:42 PM
mickeycrimm

Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.
04-02-2019, 07:45 PM
AxelWolf

I do know there have been many times where the casino wanted to run a promo but then realized they fucked up(probably due to a Dark-Side consultant) so they went ham on all the AP's and started group 86'ings. I watch it go down a number of times. Normally I would be off playing something different than the normal AP's who run and play the most obvious VP stuff, so I didn't get caught up in the mess. There have been a few times once a week promos where they would get hit one week and then target you or any of the same games played last time.
04-02-2019, 07:46 PM
kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Sorry I may have misunderstood. I thought you were claiming they were doing this with slots now.

No problem. I am saying when I first read your thread at WoV, that was the first thing that crossed my mind, until I realized it was April 1. Even more convincing for me would have been if it was Suncoast or other Boyd property.
04-02-2019, 07:55 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.

Link please. So this was set up as a trap originally or did they just target players after the fact when they realized it was AP exploitable? Was this the swipe and win up to 25X or 50x points promo? I remember there being a promo like this about that time. The largest point multiplier would have made some of the games worth a very big hourly(I was even thinking even more than 1% if you could get a 50x). We were swiping, but we never got any multipliers worth a damn. We lost our swiper and could not make all the swips.
04-02-2019, 08:05 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Sorry I may have misunderstood. I thought you were claiming they were doing this with slots now.

No problem. I am saying when I first read your thread at WoV, that was the first thing that crossed my mind, until I realized it was April 1. Even more convincing for me would have been if it was Suncoast or other Boyd property.

Wouldn't they accidentally 86 normal players doing something like that?

If they already knew who the AP's were and tailored an email they could just send them a big free play offer that they had to pick up in person from the booth or a host, Just fag the account with a message call security to 86 this player. I don't think its too smart to set up a group of AP's all at once just to 86 them. It looks real bad for the casino when security is called, there is more of a chance for something bad could go down and now you might end up with an entire group suing you.
04-03-2019, 04:34 AM
mickeycrimm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.

Link please. So this was set up as a trap originally or did they just target players after the fact when they realized it was AP exploitable? Was this the swipe and win up to 25X or 50x points promo? I remember there being a promo like this about that time. The largest point multiplier would have made some of the games worth a very big hourly(I was even thinking even more than 1% if you could get a 50x). We were swiping, but we never got any multipliers worth a damn. We lost our swiper and could not make all the swips.

It was an ongoing thing. Anyone that played that machine during the point multiplier got 86'd. I think Dancer said it was one percent. Haven't read the articles in awhile but I found the links.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...NfwRIDpmALgDCL

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._RbmOEtLRkvptX
04-03-2019, 02:19 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.

Link please. So this was set up as a trap originally or did they just target players after the fact when they realized it was AP exploitable? Was this the swipe and win up to 25X or 50x points promo? I remember there being a promo like this about that time. The largest point multiplier would have made some of the games worth a very big hourly(I was even thinking even more than 1% if you could get a 50x). We were swiping, but we never got any multipliers worth a damn. We lost our swiper and could not make all the swips.

It was an ongoing thing. Anyone that played that machine during the point multiplier got 86'd. I think Dancer said it was one percent. Haven't read the articles in awhile but I found the links.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...NfwRIDpmALgDCL

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._RbmOEtLRkvptX

Thanks. That's not the same promotion I was referring to.
04-14-2019, 10:37 AM
TheShadow7478

I live in las vegas... I have been 86'ed for slots from a major Corporate Casino. Took less than 6 months for them to 86 me.
04-14-2019, 11:21 AM
smurgerburger

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShadow7478

I live in las vegas... I have been 86'ed for slots from a major Corporate Casino. Took less than 6 months for them to 86 me.

Was it based on results rather than catching you in the act?

Also it would help if you say whether this was an MGM property or not (there's a lot of them so you'll still be anonymous).
04-15-2019, 02:15 AM
RS__

It was almost certainly MGM (imo). I have HEARD that they were cracking down on slot vultures, but I didn’t know how much or in what style. IE: Are they cracking down on people who camp out machines and do it 24/7? Or will they pick off anyone who’s poking through machines?

Well, recently I was walking the strip, which I haven’t done in like forever, and figured I’d go through some places and check the slots for the hell of it. Walk in, poke around, play if anything looks good, then leave. Security asked friend for ID, declined & asked why, they said to make sure he’s not in a database (wtf?), he assured them he wasn’t in any databases and basically got chased out.

So yeah, I’d say it’s pretty risky and I can’t see a way to do it while staying under the radar (at least not feasibly, anyway).
04-16-2019, 04:19 PM
TheShadow7478

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShadow7478

I live in las vegas... I have been 86'ed for slots from a major Corporate Casino. Took less than 6 months for them to 86 me.

Was it based on results rather than catching you in the act?

Also it would help if you say whether this was an MGM property or not (there's a lot of them so you'll still be anonymous).

I was negative in the property they got me in, and certainly negative in the corporate chain. I thought it might be results, but I looked at mine later and even in the property they "nabbed" me in, i was negative actual results. (i guess only playing 1 machine in the whole building in the place they nabbed me in, wasnt a good idea, wasnt in a high limit room)
06-05-2019, 08:25 PM
Tasha

I'm pretty sure that winning big and playing with YOUR own card is fine but it could look really bad if you got say a Jackpot playing with someone else's Player's Club Card.
06-11-2019, 03:38 AM
sandam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGenBen

On certain mchiines with persistent wilds, I was pulling my card when I had several wilds lined up so I knew the next spin was going to be a large pay. A friendly old timer that I had met and spoken with previously happened to notice me doing this and told me that pulling your card in this situation will not prevent you from being tracked as I still had the same ticket in the machine that I was using for carded play. He said if I really wanted to avoid being tracked I would have to pull out my card, cash out the ticket and put new money in to play off the wilds. It make sense that they could track you this way be wondering if any knows if they actually do or if there is a way to tell?

Card pulling doesn't work. Once you start the play it's recorded.

Card pulling depends on each casino's software - which are only written by a few companies. It is not necessarily standardized in a whole casino chain (e.g. Harrahs). Some casinos know that "card pulls" mess up their accounting, and hosts have warned APs/heavy-players not to do it. I assume that the cost of upgrading the software (or switching to a competitor's system) was prohibitively high.

Each year more casinos upgrade their systems to be aware of more "card pulls," but one big issue is interfacing with generations of older slot machines. Software systems may spend months/years in states where a "card pull" may work on one style of slot machine, but not on another...eventually after 3 years moving to a state where 99%+ of "slot pulls" are correctly recognized.

There also are "bugs"/features in implementations. For example, there are time windows after a players card is removed when certain actions can be taken.
What to do if a second card is inserted? Credit the ongoing play to the 1st card or the 2nd card?
What if no new card is inserted? Is all play credited to the 1st card until the ticket is cashed out?
What if there is no play for 10 min? Can you cause a session to be closed by sitting at the machine without playing?

Theoretically, a casino can look at a machine record to compare play with cash-in/ticket-in/ticket-out times, but that would be rare. And would NOT be done automatically.
If you play a slot machine with your card, remove your card, and then cash out a ticket, some casinos may not record that ticket-out into your account. But when does a system decide to record your end-of-play amount? That governs what "card pulls" do to your Win/Loss and point/comp/discretionary-comp/player-value.

Some casinos print your player card number on the ticket-out.
For larger tickets which have to be cashed at a live teller, it may speed the cash out process to leave your card in after a play, making sure to cash out the ticket before removing the card.

What's more important is that if a casino wants to investigate you, they can use their cameras to watch you play. So it may not matter what the automatic systems do. One friend was warned by casino staff that playing a machine with a card until a progressive got very high, then playing without a card, was not cool. It got them flagged as an AP, although not 86'ed.

I've been told that some casinos automatically flag "card pulling" behavior, but I have no confirmation.
Some APs use an "only pull once" strategy - on each machine (if it comes out, it never goes in - plausible deniability).
In extreme, only one session/day in the casino.
06-11-2019, 04:00 AM
sandam

Quote:

Originally Posted by RS__

It was almost certainly MGM (imo). I have HEARD that they were cracking down on slot vultures, but I didn’t know how much or in what style. IE: Are they cracking down on people who camp out machines and do it 24/7? Or will they pick off anyone who’s poking through machines?.

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/
06-11-2019, 04:22 AM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandam

Quote:

Originally Posted by RS__

It was almost certainly MGM (imo). I have HEARD that they were cracking down on slot vultures, but I didn’t know how much or in what style. IE: Are they cracking down on people who camp out machines and do it 24/7? Or will they pick off anyone who’s poking through machines?.

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/

Having to poke machines looking for leftover bonuses sucks. That's one thing that deters me from it. I liked it much more when you could just walk by and look at the machines and you never had to touch anything. You would find and play less per day, but each on you found was usually much more valuable(depending on the game and accumulated amount). You could zip through a casino in no time at all.
06-11-2019, 06:51 AM
mickeycrimm

Does anyone have any knowledge of this:

In some casinos I play when you download freeplay then pull the card sometime in the middle of playing off the freeplay then the freeplay that's left goes back into your account, doesn't remain on the machine.

In other casinos when I pull the card in the middle of freeplay, the freeplay stays on the machine.

So what I'm wondering is....if you download freeplay, where it stays on the machine when you pull the card, are you disguising that you played of the freeplay?
06-11-2019, 08:13 AM
jj5957

It depends on the system. There are some places where if you download your freeplay and immediately pull your card, then playing off that freeplay doesn't screw up your daily average.

It worked that way at Arizona Charlie's, Four Queens, Binion's, and Westgate until they upgraded their card readers in the last couple of years. Four Queens caught on and looked for people doing this and some got no-mailed.
06-11-2019, 11:36 AM
tableplay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

So what I'm wondering is....if you download freeplay, where it stays on the machine when you pull the card, are you disguising that you played of the freeplay?

I'm thinking that to test whether or not this is the case on such a machine (one where free play remains after the card pull) you could press the cashout button after the card is pulled. If the full balance is cashed out (leaving zero credits) I would guess that disguising is possible, but if an amount less than this is returned upon pressing the cashout button (such that an amount remains on the machine but that is less than the TITO) then the system still detects that free play is getting played off and disguising is not possible on that machine. This sort of test would have to be done right after free play is downloaded to the machine before any wagering is initiated, since of course a full churn of the free play would make all of it eligible for cashout regardless of whether disguising is possible or not.
06-12-2019, 06:08 AM
Tasha

Slightly off topic. Hialeah Park Casino has the Player's card name displayed at all times in slot machines. That is bothersome to me. What of you don't want random people knowing your name all the time? :/ Gulfstream Park only shows the name when entering the card and cashing out which is reasonable and so much better. :)
06-16-2019, 05:51 PM
DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandam

Quote:

Originally Posted by RS__

It was almost certainly MGM (imo). I have HEARD that they were cracking down on slot vultures, but I didn’t know how much or in what style. IE: Are they cracking down on people who camp out machines and do it 24/7? Or will they pick off anyone who’s poking through machines?.

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/

I hit virtually all the Mgm properties in Vegas, late last week and this weekend and didn’t have any problems. Also saw many others checking machines somewhat more aggressively than me, and they didn’t seem to have any problems either.

I’m guessing probably because I went at busy times where they would not be as focused on watching for this type of activity.
06-16-2019, 06:43 PM
AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandam

Quote:

Originally Posted by RS__

It was almost certainly MGM (imo). I have HEARD that they were cracking down on slot vultures, but I didn’t know how much or in what style. IE: Are they cracking down on people who camp out machines and do it 24/7? Or will they pick off anyone who’s poking through machines?.

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/

I hit virtually all the Mgm properties in Vegas, late last week and this weekend and didn’t have any problems. Also saw many others checking machines somewhat more aggressively than me, and they didn’t seem to have any problems either.

I’m guessing probably because I went at busy times where they would not be as focused on watching for this type of activity.

How much are you making on average per week?
06-17-2019, 01:10 AM
DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandam

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/

I hit virtually all the Mgm properties in Vegas, late last week and this weekend and didn’t have any problems. Also saw many others checking machines somewhat more aggressively than me, and they didn’t seem to have any problems either.

I’m guessing probably because I went at busy times where they would not be as focused on watching for this type of activity.

How much are you making on average per week?

Hard to answer because I travel around the country a lot for work and hit different casinos as I am working and Ive only been doing this for a few months. This was my first trip to Vegas doing this and I lost a little bit. I can see its very tough in Vegas as very competive and plays are very spread out as well as hard to find.

Outside of Vegas have done very well on a part time weekly basis, but don’t trust my numbers yet as have ran very lucky hiting a lot of big jackpots incidentally to the play’s Ive been chasing and again only a few months of part time play.

Also with my job depending on where i have to go some weeks I can get a lot of play in and other weeks very little.
06-17-2019, 07:26 AM
mickeycrimm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandam

I looked at a few machines in the Bellagio in the early am (no UX), lost a few dollars, then had a security guy block the walkway north and demand to see my ID. I refused to give them my ID or players card (which I didn't use on any machine) and just walked off property.

Heard MGM started cracking down on APs in early 2017. Heard speculation it started in the aftermath of the embarrassing Bellagio Rolex robbery (Mar 2017), and may have intensified after the shooting (Oct 2017) and the Bellagio poker cage robbery (Nov 2017). Perhaps security/surveillance departments needed to look like they were doing something.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-ro...ry?id=61727817

https://nypost.com/2017/03/25/gunsho...-in-las-vegas/

I hit virtually all the Mgm properties in Vegas, late last week and this weekend and didn’t have any problems. Also saw many others checking machines somewhat more aggressively than me, and they didn’t seem to have any problems either.

I’m guessing probably because I went at busy times where they would not be as focused on watching for this type of activity.

How much are you making on average per week?

My non-Montana income is dropping because Fortune Coin is replacing a lot of good games like GE, WWZ, GJ. I it keeps up I'll just go back to Montana.

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