it's finally out - I think - but I'm not sure where you can watch the whole thing
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/
here's the trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qanF...ature=youtu.be
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it's finally out - I think - but I'm not sure where you can watch the whole thing
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3575954/
here's the trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qanF...ature=youtu.be
Wait a minute now! As a frequent reader of this forum, I have been repeatedly told by the likes of the great Rob Singer and other recently banned members that there is no longer any such thing as professional blackjack players. What gives?
I am very much looking forward to seeing this video. It has been a long time in the making....a long time coming. Looks like release date is next month.
I'll reserve judgement until seeing the film but it looks like the approach used and that many of the recent teams like the church team have employed is what I call the "slaughter approach", as in shear vs slaughter. Aggressive, high stakes play, with as large stakes as will allow, for as long as they will allow it. The thinking being there are now hundreds, even thousands of casinos....burn 'em all out! A number of solo players have also recently adopted this same burn 'em out approach. Players usually get a couple years in....maybe less and they are done, unable to get a game anywhere.
My own approach to the game is just about as opposite as can be. Longevity, find levels that are better tolerated. I think the term "adventure" is important here as that plays into what these kind of short term deals, rack up as much as you can as long as you can approaches are about as much as anything. An adventure, but nor really a career. But I am looking forward to it and hope we can have some legitimate discussion after some of us see it.
Really looking forward to seeing this too. Someone told me that the KC guy in the trailer is on a GWAE podcast (on the Las Vegas Advisor website) from about 5 years ago. I think I may have listened to it already years ago, but I can`t remember so I`ll have to listen again.
I'm not in-favor of burning yourself out from casinos, however, if they can make more in a couple of years than you can over 20 years, I would have to think that's a much better deal. Its not like they would be totally out of the AP game. I don't know how well changing your name or using Fake ID's in vegas works for BJ(slots and VP would be more difficult, but it could be done using a legal name change and a tax ID number), but lets assume one did, perhaps they could then slow down and implement your style if they wanted to. Lets not forget they could travel to other countries as well. What is better make a few million in 2 years or 2 million in 20 years? Without a doubt, if you could choose 2 million in a few years that is a much better path IMHO. Because, if you are good enough to do that, you should be smart/good enough to use that 2 million to make even more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Yeah, that is fine. Valid point. There are different approaches. Mine is to shear rather than slaughter. Different approaches for different players with different circumstances. A few years ago, I had some discussions with a player just starting out. Not going to mention any names, but some might be able to guess. He was leaving his job/career in the financial sector, where he made several hundred thousand a year. So obviously he wasn't going to be content to take my path of "shearing" and making 75-80 thousand a year. He was going the "slaughter" route, playing limits to make 3-400 hundred K a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
One of the problems is that I don't know if a player or team playing high stakes aggressive "slaughter" approach, really has 2 years anymore. Technology is and will continue to work against them and all of us for that matter. This is one area we are all going to lose. I had this happen even at my much lower, mid-level stakes. A back off at Valley Forge Pa, (a very active database contributor), resulted in backoffs back in Vegas as soon as I returned home. You can't outrun technology. :(
One thing from the clip that I was going to mention but decided to wait but now will, was that scene where the security guards are waiting outside for the player. This is exactly what I am talking about with technology working against you. And it is funny, it seems each of these type documentary has that kind of scene. This one was in Nevada (not Vegas), in one of the other similar documentaries, that almost identical scene takes place down on the gulf coast. The team traveled to the next location, like 100 miles away and security was waiting for them. THAT is technology working against us.
I said I was going to reserve judgement and now I feel like I am voicing some opinions...sorry about that. But just based on this clip, I see some things I don't like. They talk about how they can't play at any casino, so they have to resort to disguises as if not being allowed to play is some sort of badge of honor. And this scene where security is waiting for you is the same thing. These are not badges of honor. Figuring out how TO BE ALLOWED TO PLAY, or the terminology I like to use is "tolerated", is the badge of honor. That is the real success.
Maybe my initial opinion will change as I see more of this documentary. I reserve that right. :)
I have no doubt that some scenes are embellished and "staged." That's what the Golden Nugget did with Andy Bloch in "The Casino" reality series.
I'm going to have to come to the defense of my arch menace, Kj, on this one. I don't believe the "slash and burn" style gets you more money in the long run or short run. Take the church team, which is a big advocate of playing with no cover and spreading big until you get kicked out. The numbers Blackjack Apprenticeship throws out there sound impressive until you dig a little deeper, which I've done by reading and listening to every interview Colin and people on his team have done. As most know, I was a member on that site until I got the boot for defending casinos for doing what they're suppose to do, and liking to tip. But that's another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfI'm not in-favor of burning yourself out from casinos, however, if they can make more in a couple of years than you can over 20 years, I would have to think that's a much better deal. Its not like they would be totally out of the AP game. I don't know how well changing your name or using Fake ID's in vegas works for BJ(slots and VP would be more difficult, but it could be done using a legal name change and a tax ID number), but lets assume one did, perhaps they could then slow down and implement your style if they wanted to. Lets not forget they could travel to other countries as well. What is better make a few million in 2 years or 2 million in 20 years? Without a doubt, if you could choose 2 million in a few years that is a much better path IMHO. Because, if you are good enough to do that, you should be smart/good enough to use that 2 million to make even more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
The church team operated for about 7 years with at times 20 to 30 members, but most the time it had more like 15 members and made about $4 million. This sounds impressive until you run the numbers. I did a rough calculation and this comes to about $20/hr, probably less if you include travel time and costs. This is supported by the movie, Holly Rollers, where they show team members celebrating in large numbers once they have "closed a bank". What do these checks look like? Only a couple thousand dollars, which is what I've made in a weekend, and I'm a red chipper. Obviously, this isn't every weekend.
This was brought up by some new members on BJA. They were surprised by how small the checks were in the Holly Roller movie once "the bank" was closed. Colin defended this by saying the investors in the church team made much more than this. Basically, the investors were taking advantage of the church grunts doing all the work. It looked like the grunts could have probably made about the same amount working a minimum wage part time job, and not had all the travel expenses and inconvenience of being away from home.
What about Colin? He claims to have made about $600,000 and his hourly rate is supposedly about $340/hr. Again, this sounds impressive until you run the numbers, which I did. If you consider he played for 7 years this comes to less than $100,000/yr, which is about what kj makes and Kj doesn't play this style, and he doesn't have to travel. As far as how Colin calculated his hourly win rate, I expect he didn't include his travel time or travel costs. If you'd included all that, it'd probably come down to more like $100/hr. I'm just speculating here. I know he got backed off a lot (he said between 50 and 100 times) so I know he was travelling a lot. He probably can't play close to his home base.
Bottom line is I don't think the "slash and burn" style is as effective at getting the money as some claim.
I am looking forward to seeing this movie, and reading the book Colin is soon to publish. I wonder if he's going to include a chapter on how he backed me and other members off who questioned or defended practices he believes in. He's big on criticizing casinos when they back people off, but seems to think it's okay when he backs people off. I broke no rules when I was on BJA. I never called anybody names and I never criticized their bootcamp, although I think it's a joke and he's taking advantage of young kids who have dreams of striking it rich in a casino. BJA plays to people's greed, which is why it's done well.
That brings me back to this forum. It's the only forum I've found where I can express my views and not fear a backoff. That's why this is the best site on the internet, and it's thanks to Dan, and the other people who participate here. Even though I have my quarrels with Kj, I have learned from him and I enjoy reading his posts. Kj's problem is he takes these things way to seriously.
People who use disguises, fake ID's, illegal SS nos., or any other type scam always eventually pay the piper. They'd be far better off fabricating BJ success on forums like kew has made a career out of.
That said, I agree more in the "little by little" method than in the foolish "go for broke today" style that has landed so many gambling dummies in trouble. If axel meets up with me, he will understand how what I've successfully done mirrors this almost perfectly.
Yes because little by little goes hand in hand with martingale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
#SpecialEd4SpecialPlays
While you have finally made a post that I agree at least in principal with most of what you are saying, this number as it pertains to me is wrong. It is inflated. And it is not fair to use an inflated number relating to me when doing some sort of comparison. This is exactly why I have shared some of the details of what I make so there would be no fudging of numbers to suite one's needs. MY blackjack EV is roughly $75-80 thousand per year, depending on just how many rounds I play. And my results average about that same amount. I have had years, including last year where I made 100k or close to it, but it is not my average earnings from blackjack play, nor my expectation (accumulated EV).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
The confusion lies in that for a number of years (through 2018) I had supplemental AP earning that were not from blackjack play. This averaged 20-25k a year and bumped my total AP expectation and actual earning up during those years. But I should have never even began sharing those numbers as all it has done is add confusion to what I make. Now that I have returned to my blackjack roots and am all but done with any kind of supplemental play and income, both my expectation and actual income should return (average) back to 75-80k, unless I play more to fill that void and at this point in time I don't want to play any more than I currently do.
I also don't consider you or anyone an "arch menace". That is apparently your thing.... a troll thing. That is not why I am about.
Kj, you and I are saying the same thing. I said LESS than $100,000. I said ABOUT what Kj makes. These are correct statements. It doesn't disagree with anything you said in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhile you have finally made a post that I agree at least in principal with most of what you are saying, this number as it pertains to me is wrong. It is inflated. And it is not fair to use an inflated number relating to me when doing some sort of comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I sometimes wonder if you try to disagree with someone, even though you really agree with them, because you are a closet troll....or because you are a forum harasser. You like to find people to harass, even when you agree with them.
This is why Dan needs to be commended for not banning you, like other moderators have done.
Credit were credit is due boob, this is an example of, as you would put it, some top notch trolling right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJWhile you have finally made a post that I agree at least in principal with most of what you are saying, this number as it pertains to me is wrong. It is inflated. And it is not fair to use an inflated number relating to me when doing some sort of comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
This is why Dan needs to be commended for not banning you, like other moderators have done.
Thanks for the compliment mcap! I've learned from some of the best trollers out there, Kj and his kind. It takes time, but I'm getting better at it!Quote:
Originally Posted by mcapCredit were credit is due boob, this is an example of, as you would put it, some top notch trolling right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
This is why Dan needs to be commended for not banning you, like other moderators have done.
I'm sure they felt that to a make a doc marketable they had to show the slash and burn guys going after the big, big, buckeroonis
not too many are going to want to watch a doc about some grinders making 70K per year
Excellent point! And that documentary would also involve showing that person spending most of their day on the internet getting into some feud with someone on a forum over something stupid. Yeah, that movie wouldn't be much fun to watch. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Half Smoke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Excellent point! And that documentary would also involve showing that person spending most of their day on the internet getting into some feud with someone on a forum over something stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Smoke
When you are already successful you can afford to play at your leisure.
" Yeah, that movie wouldn't be much fun to watch. Lol"
Yes Bob realities and hard work are not exciting to the American public. Bob, why are you still playing the kiss ass sock puppet?
Moses, could you please translate for me? You’re the best at trying to somewhat figure out what Bosox is trying to say. How did what I say have anything to do with being a sock puppet?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Excellent point! And that documentary would also involve showing that person spending most of their day on the internet getting into some feud with someone on a forum over something stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Smoke
When you are already successful you can afford to play at your leisure.
" Yeah, that movie wouldn't be much fun to watch. Lol"
Yes Bob realities and hard work are not exciting to the American public. Bob, why are you still playing the kiss ass sock puppet?
And by the way, Moses, thank you for your kind words on zenzone today. You get that people can have different opinions and still respect each other and not see it as “trolling”.
I didn’t even know what the word “troll” meant in the Internet world till I got on these forums. I had to look it up. And contrary to what most APs think, trolling is not having an opinion different than your own. That’s the standard definition within the AP cult world. Lol. That’s a joke, I meant within the AP community.
You make it sound like you can make a couple thousand dollars quite often over a couple days of playing time at the red chip level. I'm also a red chipper and agree it can be done, but it sure doesn't happen very often which you seem to imply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Both 2017 and 2018 were very good blackjack years for me, and most of my play was not on crowded weekends. However, when I go on a blackjack trip it is usually for more than one day and I play very long sessions over the length of the trip. So I decided to look at how many two days in a row were $2,000 or more in 2017 and 2018.
In 2018 there was only one consecutive 2 day period where I made over $2,000, and it was only for a little over $2,200. In 2018 I played on 44 days. In 2017 I played on a total of 31 days and again only one time where I made over $2,000 over a consecutive two day period. And in 2016 there was only one time over a two day period where I made almost $2,600, but that was in Wendover where some of that play was at the green chip level.
So Bob if you had good records I think you could see the times you made two thousand playing red chips on weekends are few and far between.
Midwest Player, I agree with everything you said, but you’re kind of missing my point. My point was the church team in the Holly Roller movie was having a big celebration dinner and then handing out checks to team members that were under $10,000. When I watched the movie, I was surprised by how small the checks were for. I was not the only person that thought this. There were several BJA members who commented about this on their forum. Please reread my post again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest PlayerYou make it sound like you can make a couple thousand dollars quite often over a couple days of playing time at the red chip level. I'm also a red chipper and agree it can be done, but it sure doesn't happen very often which you seem to imply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Both 2017 and 2018 were very good blackjack years for me, and most of my play was not on crowded weekends. However, when I go on a blackjack trip it is usually for more than one day and I play very long sessions over the length of the trip. So I decided to look at how many two days in a row were $2,000 or more in 2017 and 2018.
In 2018 there was only one consecutive 2 day period where I made over $2,000, and it was only for a little over $2,200. In 2018 I played on 44 days. In 2017 I played on a total of 31 days and again only one time where I made over $2,000 over a consecutive two day period. And in 2016 there was only one time over a two day period where I made almost $2,600, but that was in Wendover where some of that play was at the green chip level.
So Bob if you had good records I think you could see the times you made two thousand playing red chips on weekends are few and far between.
My point was the BJA guys are “slash and burn” type and believe in no cover, and spreading big. They throw out big numbers on their web site, like they won close to $4 million. It’s only later when you read the fine print, you find it took them many years and many team members to win this amount. When you run the numbers, you find out they really didn’t win that much per person....and the movie confirms this by the small checks the members got when they “broke the bank”.
Anyway, I was just adding my two cents to the discussion when someone commented on how much “the slash and burn” style can win. I don’t think it’s as much as some people think. That’s all.
Moses, I just reread your last post on zenzone. I really liked the post you pasted from Zengrifter who copied something from sonny. This is a nice summary of what we’re dealing with in bj and how to reduce the number of hours to get to NO. I sent it to some of the people I play with. Thanks!
And by the way, I liked your comments about trolling, brought back memories. Yes, I remember putting out troll and bank lines in rivers in Kansas. I grew up loving to fish, but haven’t done much lately.
Moses, just to be clear, the “church team” made about $4 milllion in 7 years, give or take a year. They are kind of fuzzy on their stasitics, so I can’t get an good read on what all is included in the $4 million number. I think the number I see quoted most often is $3.8 million.
They had as many as 30 members, but most the time played with less. Some were part time, some full time. If you assume 20 members putting in 1,000 hrs/yr (which is reasonable if you consider travel time) that means they made about $28/hr. If you take out expenses, I expect they averaged about $20/hr, which is a little better than working at McDonald’s.
My point is if you go on Blackjack Apprentiship website their claims look impressive. Who wouldn’t want to make $4 million playing blackjack? You have to listen to interviews to find out the fine print behind these numbers.
The point is BJA is making money by preying on the greed of people. They are selling an illusion...that there are riches to be made in casinos by counting cards using Hilo. The reality is the people getting wealthy are the ones selling $3,000 weekend bootcamps.
That has been my point all along. The real money is in selling bootcamps to wannabe APs. That’s why I want to branch out into the bootcamp business. And my bootcamp will teach other skills some APs don’t know about, like how to use different handles on different forums. Lol. My bootcamp will teach much more than just Hilo.
Who knows I might even go over how to troll when you’re fishing. This is a lost art with the young kids, because they spend too much time in casinos.
Moses?...is he still around?...I thought him and Tater eloped and were having a lot of hot fornication under a bridge somewhere :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Never mind, I just read for 5 minutes over at FreakZone and see he’s still posting all day long...I see he started a thread titled “When to get in and When to get out”.... didn’t read it but just figured it was about his filthy romps with the Tater lolQuote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneMoses?...is he still around?...I thought him and Tater eloped and were having a lot of hot fornication under a bridge somewhere :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Moses says:
Even if someone made $2000 just one day in these little gambling towns. It would mean making $200 an hour and playing for 10 hours. That is a load in itself. Plus it leaves no room for those torrential downturns that WILL occur with a simple count and full tables. But imagine the pit failing to notice the good fortune you seem to having. My experience is they get twitchy at the $200 mark in a red chip game. Especially in a pitch game in little towns. There are NOT enough places in town to table hop and half of the places do not offer a game worthy of play in the first place. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that the God Lord, for whatever reason, has decided to shine his light brightly on Midwest Player. Master Norm and Don S would probably refer to this as VOODOO and it would end up in the older yeller section at BJTF. Who'd blame them?
Moses, I was trying to show how seldom making $2,000 at the red chip level happens over a two period. It wasn't done in one day, but over two days. However, I have won $2,000 in just one day at the red chip level. It also goes the other way and I have lost more than $2,000 over a two day period just playing red chips.
Now here is a little story. I almost always just play at the red chip level, but sometimes in larger casinos I will play at the green chip level. I was at a casino out of my local area and wanted a room comp. Before I started to play I asked how much play do I need to get my room comped. The pit boss said I would need to play at least $25 for at least 4 hours to get a room comp. He said if he saw me even just once drop my bet below $25 the deal was off. I tried to talk him into letting me play $10 a hand for 8 hours, but he wouldn't agree. So I finally accepted the deal and off I went on a roller coaster ride.
The session had its ups and downs and I would make a big deal about how this free room was going to cost me hundreds of dollars when things were not going well. Well, the session did finally turn positive and after 4 hours I had enough play at the $25 level so I asked for the free room, well they had to check with someone else. Just some bullshit delays. So I continued to play at the $25 level, but I wanted that free room so I could start playing at the $10 level again and be under less stress. I think maybe around the 5 or 6 hour mark I got the free room comp and went and checked in. After check in I dropped back down to the $10 red chip level and would play for a total of 9 hours that day.
This day turned out to be the best day I ever had except for some blackjack promotion I played. I made $3,225 for 9 hours of play mostly at the green chip level. So you can see the huge difference between red chip and green chip play. By the way, this could of went the other way and turned out to be a very expensive free room.
Midwest Player, I went back and watched Holy Roller movie to see the size of their checks. At the dinner where they celebrated “closing a bank”, one guy got a $2000 check and he actually showed it to the camera. I have won $2000 in a weekend red chipping. Not often but I’ve done it more than once. And I didn’t go out and have a celebration dinner.
I expect when the church team calculated their hourly rate, they did not include the training time. Based on some of the material on BJA, I epect they trained about three months for 40 hours a week before they played in a casino. If you include the training time, the travel time and expenses, and the playing time, I expected their hourly rate was probably about what you could make part time at McDonald’s.
And working at McDonald’s or some other part time job, they would’ve been adding value to society rather than extracting revenue from state and local governments, which rely on casinos for some of their revenue.
Do you feel the same way about those that use sockpuppets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Moses, good comments on your recent zenzone post. Yeah, if there was big money to be made in blackjack, businesses like BJA wouldn’t be popping up to tell people how to do it. Everybody knows more APs just makes it harder on the rest of us. In the last two years, I’ve seen more and more young counters at my local casinos. Last weekend, there was a counter at every table, and one table had 3 of them. Some were pretty good. Casinos can only support so many APs before they’ll have to change the rules.
People don’t like me calling APs parasites, but that’s what we are. We need the host (casinos) to be healthy for us to make money. The host (casinos) can only support so many parasites (APs) before they have to either change the rules or spend more time and money finding and extracting us.
I expect what happened with the church team is it had run its course, meaning there was very few casinos close by they could play in. It’s a tough life traveling, and I read somewhere that the last couple years they weren’t that profitable. And after a while the excitement wears down, especially when you’re getting backed off almost as soon as you sit down.
Since they had all this material they used to train their members, they decided to make a business out of it. You can’t blame them since it’s legal to do this. BJA is a basically a business training people to become parasites (making money off other business by not giving anything back).
My problem with the BJA guys is their hypocrisy. They are constantly criticizing casinos for being this evil enterprise, even though casinos are doing excited what they are suppose to do. And then they use the same tactics (selling greed) they claim casinos are using to entice young impressionable kids to strike it rich in a casino. Their marketing material is very misleading claiming to make millions without letting people know the fine print...meaning it took years with a lot of people. They are much more dishonest than any casinos I’ve been too.
Yeah, I figured my last comment would upset people and possibly strike up a debate, but the reality is casinos are a business and the ONLY reason our states let them into their communities is to raise revenue for their state and local governments. Casinos are like state run lotteries...they are basically a voluntary tax on its citizens. It’s okay to try to turn the table on a casino and win money from them, but this isn’t anything noble and it isn’t benefiting anybody but ourselves. This is just the reality of it. There should be nothing wrong with facing reality.
Moses, excellent responses. For the most part, I agree with you.
I was thinking about your comment the other day about God striking down people with lightning that he doesn’t like. I know this is a common phrase used by people, but it made me think and prepare for the next thunderstorm.
If God doesn’t like hypocrisy or pride and lightning is His tool for teaching lessons (basically the Old Testament God), you probably want to stay as far away from the BJA guys as possible during a thunderstorm. Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.
So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.
So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
You’ve also been a contributor in this thread early on, and as usual you were wrong in your comments. This is actually a decent thread about gambling and IF it’s advantageous to have more and more APs in the world. I think I’ve even seen you agree with me on this point. You said you don’t agree with the Blackjack apprenticeship people recruiting and training APs.
Yeah, I guess I could go over to Zenzone and reply to Moses, but I think it actually works better this way... having our interaction go back-and-forth between the two forums. Midwest Player also interacts with Moses in this way. Even Keystone gets involved sometimes. This is actually one of the better threads on this site right now. It even has your usual out of control ranting that no thread would be complete without.
About thunderstorms and lightning. I think it might be a good idea for people to stay away from kJ during a thunderstorms too. Just to play it safe. Lol
Bob, I can't understand why you continue to harp on advantage blackjack players being bad for casinos. Before the book "Beat the Dealer" came out, blackjack was not the number one casino game. I believe it was craps, anyway after the book came out the popularity of blackjack exploded and the casinos made more money than ever before. If everyone believed the game could not be beaten, a lot less folks would be playing it. So we draw in more customers to the casino than ever before and they are making more money than ever before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Now here is a little story for you. Our local casinos are pretty dead this time of year. I'm often the first one to open a table, and almost all the time my presence will draw in other players. They could go to the next table that is empty, but no, they sit at my table because they don't like to play alone and promptly lose their money. If the table was empty there is a good chance they would not even play. Also I always have a lot of chips in front of me. At least $300 in chips so it looks like I'm winning even if I'm not (This is probably a bad thing as it draws in other players which I don't want to do, but I need working capital). I've had players comment at the table "don't you ever lose". If I can do it they want to try also.
Now Bob, you mentioned lotteries. We have a lottery in our state where half the money goes to the k-12 education and administration of the lottery. The other half is paid out in lottery winnings. However, money is spent advertising the lottery. It is a parasite taking money away from the other areas. Why do they do it? They do it because it attracts more players and they end up with an even larger pile of money. It is kind of like a few advantage players winning to attract even more revenue for the casinos.
Now there are a lot of things we have that don't add any value to society. Take bowling for example. It doesn't put another loaf of bread on the table. It is just another game some folks enjoy. Same could be said for golf. What a waste of all that valuable land. Just another game some folks spend a lot of money on. Same thing can be said for casinos, We have them because folks enjoy them. That is there primary purpose. Revenue for government is just a side item.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.
So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
Bob21, in my mind you are a no good rotten to the core piece of shit. Okay you interact with some members here including your buddy at the Zen Zone. Never once did I ever hear you chastise your buddy for making his constant threatening posts on a regular basis from ZZ. Put another way one can not help but think that you condone his behaviour. Upon closer examination it seems you instigate much of this crap. When your buddy was banned here It was you who suggested your buddy take on a female sock puppet when his responses started. This is all fun and games to you nothing more. In reality you are more dangerous than your buddy whom you manipulate at will.
Mr.Botox, I think you are correct that Bob manipulates the other guy, but that`s only because the other guy is too stupid to realize it and has the brain the size of a raisin...besides that, I don`t think Bob`s a bad guy at all.....Moses on the other hand is a loudmouth chump...a lil whiner, just like he whined to me in PM :)....I know many here in the AP and non AP camps think the other are liars, but I`ve personally never seen a bigger bullshit artist than this Moses fool...quite a sissy too :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Bob21, in my mind you are a no good rotten to the core piece of shit. Okay you interact with some members here including your buddy at the Zen Zone. Never once did I ever hear you chastise your buddy for making his constant threatening posts on a regular basis from ZZ. Put another way one can not help but think that you condone his behaviour. Upon closer examination it seems you instigate much of this crap. When your buddy was banned here It was you who suggested your buddy take on a female sock puppet when his responses started. This is all fun and games to you nothing more. In reality you are more dangerous than your buddy whom you manipulate at will.
This is interesting. Why do some AP's think some of the non-AP's are liars? One simple reason....their math doesn't add up. They make claims that are mathematical impossible. It isn't personal, or at least doesn't start out that way. It is just that the math doesn't work, whether it be 18 y.o's in a row, or making a million dollars plus, playing -EV games, or a claim of being a 30 year professional gambler and professional blackjack player in Reno, where they only tolerate red chip play. It's all about the math. The claims don't add up mathematically, so we call them out on it and things escalate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
Now on the other side, the anti-AP's challenge claims of AP's despite that the math works. There almost always seems to be some sort of jealousy or bitter feelings involved. It didn't work for THEM. They were or are a losing player, usually because they are playing -EV games. At times it appears there is some degenerate gambling issues at play. Whatever the case, they lost and lose money, so they attack the players that don't lose, even though these players have the mathematics on their side. And from there it escalates into a weird world of alternative math and "special plays" that allow results better than optimal play. We just leave reality. :rolleyes:
Now as for the person mentioned, I hesitate to do this, because he can't respond, but yet he does, so I am going to. Maybe this is small of me. But there are 2 quotes from the funny farm that I want to bring to light. I am going to place these quotes in green to distinguish them as his.
"Forum's are a little like playing blackjack. IF a casino can't handle a 1 to 4 spread on a $5 table. Hell, I didn't want to play in the first place."
I tried to tell people that his claim of being a 30 year professional blackjack player in Reno was bogus, for 2 reasons. 1.) he didn't have some basic knowledge necessary to succeed. Knowledge about normal variance and such. And 2.) Reno doesn't allow anything but red chip level play for very long. Sure a player can roll into town for a couple days, on a weekend and get some green/black chip action in, but a regular player playing regularly can't get anything more than red chip action. This quote confirms that is what he is. Again, it is probably small of me to enjoy him exposing himself like this, but this is a guy that has attacked me for years out of some sort of bitterness.....which leads to quote #2.
"I could make a decent case for me being noble. Put 3 kids through college, lived in nice houses that were paid for, nice cars for everyone, rentals, stocks, big bank account, and I was 98% wage earner. I felt I like I did everything the good Lord expected of me according to HIS book. But sometimes hard work doesn't pay off and you get screwed. That life was really good. But a little disheartening to learn, after 25 years, it wasn't real. Today, it's not nearly as good, but at least it's real. I can deal with real.
So I don't give much thought or concern to my being noble anymore - been there, done that. Maybe it's not a correct way of thinking. But I never ask anyone for anything in my life. Those who judge me are still the ones who also seek something from me. If I want to play some blackjack and bet some games I think I've earned the right. But no, I certainly wouldn't recommend this lifestyle to my kids".
Two paragraphs....very sad and troubling paragraphs posted today in their entirety (no edit by me). :( I ask you to read these two paragraphs several times. Pay close attention to the repeated use of past tense, "lived in a nice house", "did everything right", "that life was good". And probably the saddest comment, "Today, it's not nearly as good, but at least it's real. I can deal with real."
Now let me ask, does this sound like a 30 year successful professional sportsbetter and blackjack player? Or does this sound like someone who has lost nearly everything he had and takes solace in the company of his fellow degenerate gamblers and homeless friends that he can relate to. There is even the part where he is justifying to himself (and maybe friends and kids) that he has earned this right to play a little blackjack and bet some sports games if he wants.
I honestly take no pleasure in revealing this one. It's sad. But I bring it up because it always comes back to the single fact that these guys that attack and try to discredit AP's do so out of a very bitter resentment. That is always what it is about.
Good luck to you Moses. Find happiness.
Midwest Player, there is a lot to dissect in your post. I wish I knew how to highlight potions of it and make my comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest PlayerBob, I can't understand why you continue to harp on advantage blackjack players being bad for casinos. Before the book "Beat the Dealer" came out, blackjack was not the number one casino game. I believe it was craps, anyway after the book came out the popularity of blackjack exploded and the casinos made more money than ever before. If everyone believed the game could not be beaten, a lot less folks would be playing it. So we draw in more customers to the casino than ever before and they are making more money than ever before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Now here is a little story for you. Our local casinos are pretty dead this time of year. I'm often the first one to open a table, and almost all the time my presence will draw in other players. They could go to the next table that is empty, but no, they sit at my table because they don't like to play alone and promptly lose their money. If the table was empty there is a good chance they would not even play. Also I always have a lot of chips in front of me. At least $300 in chips so it looks like I'm winning even if I'm not (This is probably a bad thing as it draws in other players which I don't want to do, but I need working capital). I've had players comment at the table "don't you ever lose". If I can do it they want to try also.
Now Bob, you mentioned lotteries. We have a lottery in our state where half the money goes to the k-12 education and administration of the lottery. The other half is paid out in lottery winnings. However, money is spent advertising the lottery. It is a parasite taking money away from the other areas. Why do they do it? They do it because it attracts more players and they end up with an even larger pile of money. It is kind of like a few advantage players winning to attract even more revenue for the casinos.
Now there are a lot of things we have that don't add any value to society. Take bowling for example. It doesn't put another loaf of bread on the table. It is just another game some folks enjoy. Same could be said for golf. What a waste of all that valuable land. Just another game some folks spend a lot of money on. Same thing can be said for casinos, We have them because folks enjoy them. That is there primary purpose. Revenue for government is just a side item.
First, you ask why I think APs are bad for casinos? That's pretty simple. Because casinos lose money on them in the long run. No business likes customers that are losing propositions. That's why casinos backoff and 86 APs. I'm surprised you don't understand that. If you ran a casino and knew an AP lived at your casino, would you just let them camp out and take you to the cleaners? I don't think so.
As far as "Beat the Dealer", I get that this book made bj the most popular game in the casino and brought in huge profits for the casinos. I've read this story many times and believe it. But that was because people thought the game could be beat but they didn't put in the time to beat it. Casinos want people who think the game can be beat but don't have the ability to do it. Casinos don't want people who have the ability or bankroll to beat them. Do you think they liked losing $4 million to the church team? There's a reason those guys got backed off from 100s of casinos.
As far as BJA, they are training people to become pros and take serious money from casinos. Have you seen some of the comments from people on BJTF? They say some of the people trained by BJA are some of the best counters they've worked with. Do you think casinos want these people in their casino? I know I wouldn't. Having more competent counters does not make it easier for us or the casinos. That's just a fact. The fewer competent counters, the better for all of us. "Beat the Dealer" didn't make a bunch of people competent counters.
Again what BJA is doing is legal, but I don't agree with what they're selling. They're selling greed. They are selling the illusion of getting rich with little work. I don't think it's good for the young kids who have bought into this dream. Due to my posts being high quality on BJA (I toned down my sarcasm when I was on BJA), I got quite a few personal emails from BJA members who lived in my area. They wanted to play with me in our local casinos. Most of them had fairly low paying jobs and weren't the sharpest tool in the tool shed, to say the least. Yes, these people will just lose their money in casinos so I guess in this case BJA is helping casinos.
As far as what adds value to society, you're completely missing my point. There are many things that add value to our lives that don't put "a loaf of bread" on the table. Going to a movie, a ballgame, bowling, an art gallery, a museum, an opera, a concert, sightseeing, etc, all add value to our lives. I'd add going to a casino and enjoying gambling can also add value to our lives. It's called entertainment! Our lives need entertainment. And the only "value" going on in a casino is that by the casinos. It's called entertainment.
When an AP takes money from a casino, we're NOT adding any value to society. This was nothing to do with a moral judgment on what an AP does. Again, there is nothing wrong with being an AP. I am a part time AP after all.
When governments allowed casinos into their communities, they did it to provide entertainment to people who like casinos and to raise revenue. They didn't do it because they thought some people would try to live off casinos. With this said, everybody knows some of the weaker people in our society will become problem gamblers and lose everything. And some people will try to live off casinos. These people are called APs. Our government and casinos want as few of these people as possible.
And you are INCORRECT about the primary reason governments let casinos into their communities. It is primarily for economic activity and to bring in revenue. It's not a coincidence that casinos were legalized in Nevada the same year Hoover Dam project started.
While I agree casinos need some APs to show people their games can be beat. It's in the casino's interest to have as few as possible. They want to all be like Max Rubin's casino. He won't allow any APs in his casino to gamble. He will only let them in his casino to eat. If you think casinos like APs, you should talk to Max Rubin about it. Better yet, why don't you open a casino and make it AP friendly, advertising that no AP will ever be backed off or bared. How long do you think your casino would survive before it'd go bankrupt? I'll give you a hint, not very long.
This has got long enough, but I can tell you're still struggling with this stuff, but at least you're trying.
Quote: Bob21: "When an AP takes money from a casino, we're NOT adding any value to society. "
incorrect. when an AP takes money from a casino he does not then eat that money
he spends it. on houses, cars, raising children, etc.
contributing to the economy
they also cause casinos to hire more employees due to increased action at the tables
Half smoke, here is what you and most APs are missing. If you didn’t win that money and it stayed in the casino’s hands, someone else would be spending it. No value has been created when you win money from a casino. It’s that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Smoke
Casinos are a “zero sum” game. What does that mean? Money is just exchanged from one party to the other, based on some gambling proposition. In the end, nothing is created of value (with the exception of entertainment) when the money exchanges hands.
In other money translations something of value is exchanged. Each party gets something. This isn’t the case in a casino. This is why the casino is the only party providing “value” in a casino. Casinos are like a movie, a ball game, a concert, etc. The business model of a casino is for people to give them money (in the long run...of course, in the short run some people will win) for the purpose of entertainment. It’s that simple.
This doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with being an AP. It’s legal. I do it. But if we want to be honest with ourselves, we should also recognize we’re doing nothing of value. If APs didn’t exists, casinos and governments would have more money to spend. Casino employees and stock holders would be buying more things.
If you believe you can spend the money better than a casino employee or stock holder that’s another debate. I’m sure in some cases that’s correct, and in other cases it’s incorrect.
The debate here is what value does an AP bring to society when they win money in a casino. The answer is none.
Fuck "society" and the rest of that liberal bullshit! I care about me and my family. Not you or anyone else's.
Nothing you can do talking reason with a guy like boob21. When you zig he is going to zag, and when you zag, he is going to zig. Unless you’re badmouthing or he can manipulate you into badmouthing BJA, then he will keep on course all day.
Quote: Bob21 : "If you didn’t win that money and it stayed in the casino’s hands, someone else would be spending it. No value has been created"
If that was true then it would also be true that if you work for Ford Motor Co. nothing you did provided any value to society.
because if there was no Ford motor Co. or you did your job poorly cars would be sold by other companies and other people would have your job - the money you made and spent will be made and spent by others
Macap, you just stole your line from Mickey. And Mickey came up with it because he doesn’t know how to debate or know what he believes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcap
Where have I ever zigged or zagged on this topic? I made a statement of fact. When an AP or gambler or anybody else wins money in a casino no value has been created. The same is true when someone wins the lottery. All that happens is money has changed hands from one party to the other. One party has more money, while the other party has less. It’s that simple.
If you give money to your kids or friends have you created value? Has this money taken on more value since it has changed hands? The answer is no. The same situation happens in a casino. No value has been created by moving money from one party to the other, be it the player to the casino...or the casino to the player.
This has nothing to do with being a liberal or a conservative. It’s just a fact that moving money from one person to another without anything occurring is not adding value. It’s that simple.
Why is this so hard for you - and other APs - to understand? This does not change the fact that I like to go to casinos and extract money from them by being a card counter. But I don’t have any illusions that I’m adding any value to society when I do this. It’s not a big deal, but it appears to be to APs.
Damn right I stole the phrase, because it’s true and people looked like they needed a reminder and mick blocked your ass.
Yes mcap, catchy phase, but can you point out how I zigged and zagged on the topic on hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by mcap
It’s interesting that Bosox, forum detective, has just the opposite take on me. He says I’m one of the most consistent APs he’s ever known. He said I never zig and zag. If a zig, I stay zigging....and if I zag, I stay zagging. I never zig then zag. Lol
I get you might not like my opinion on some topics. That’s really Mickey’s beef with me. He doesn’t agree with me on some topics so he blocked me. That’s his right. Mickey basically tapped out. You will never see me tap out. I’m not scared of hearing views that don’t align with mine. It’s how I learn and grow.
Very interesting post by Moses over at zenzone. He spilled the beans on his life story. Damn, divorce is tough, but it seems he was devastated by it. I remember him telling this once before, but that time he started out with 4 million not 3 million.
Agreed! That was a touching story! Moses, thanks for being so honest and sharing it with us. Sounds like you’ve made the best out of a bad situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest Player
Yeah I read it as well and he seemed very upfront and honest about it...everyone faces adversity in their life somewhere along the way....all depends on the person whether they face it head on or run from it...he seemed to face his head on, which I respectQuote:
Originally Posted by Midwest Player
Link?
I took a peek at ZZ and i happened across Blitzkrieg's poker partner post. He seems like a real gem.
4 million, 3 million? Ahh, what's the difference. It's ONLY a million dollars. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest Player
Here's the thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't his claim that he hasn't worked for anyone in 30 years? He accumulated all this wealth, 3 million or 4 million depending on which story, by betting sports and playing blackjack...in Reno of all places.
Look I know nothing about betting sports or trying to with an advantage. What little I know, I picked up from tips at WoV by my friend Wizard. :rolleyes: And that has been enough to make me a solid lifetime loser in the betting sports arena, which is just entertainment for me. So I am not qualified to comment on Moses knowledge about sportsbetting. But someone here that does know, isn't very impressed. Perhaps Moses just hasn't shared that knowledge and has kept it to himself. Would be a first as he shares his opinion about everything else, whether asked or not.
And while I am not qualified to comment on his "professional" sportsbetting, I am qualified to comment on his claim of "professional" blackjack play. I know what it is to be a grinder type blackjack card counter, grinding out a living with a slim 1% advantage and dealing with the variance that comes with it. The top thing you need is a large rotation of playable games, and THAT is NOT Reno. This guy has not demonstrated ANY of the knowledge needed to do that. And the fact that he claims to play Single deck, where I don't doesn't change any of that. And the fact that he claims to play Reno, the sweatiest of sweatiest location, makes this claim even more preposterous. You can not grind your way to a living playing a small sweaty location like Reno. I play Reno. Not regularly, but enough to know, they ain't letting anybody do what I do, or moses claims. Nope! Nope! Nope!.
The best a frequent player in Reno can do is play be allowed to play Red chip with a small spread, like $5-$20, And nobody is making a living doing that. Maybe supplementing some sort of SSI or disability payments or something, that is about it. Now I don't know if That is Moses gig, but based the homeless and near homeless crowd that he is hanging out with, THAT seems much more likely.
I don't care what his story is. But this notion that he accumulated 3 or 4 (depending on the day or story) million dollars as a professional gambler in Reno for 30 years, is …. preposterous. No other word for it.
Divorce may very well have hit him hard financially, but not to the tune that he is talking about, because he never accumulated that kind of money as a professional gambler, as he claimed. But whatever!! Hey maybe you guys can start some kind of go fund me page for "poor" <- ;) Moses, who's life was devastated by divorce.
I don't think Moses ever said he made all his wealth from playing blackjack. He mentioned he had a job in sales and then his own business. His business must have been very successful in order to be a millionaire by 45. Very few folks can accomplish this.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
At the end of each year as part of my income tax preparation, I make a list of all my assets except my house and cars and the income each one produces during the year. This list consisted of 36 different items this year, however at age 45 my list consisted of only 24 items and totaled to just under $50,000. Damn, that is a far way from a million and it truly is the exception for anyone to have a million at 45 unless they got a big inheritance.
Ok, I don't know anything about a job in sales or owning his own business. Was this mentioned in one of these long book like posts in the last few days? Since someone also PMed me that he has said that it must have been. I just scanned a couple of the long posts and don't see anything about that.
But what I am talking about is a post he made several years ago and then again fairly recently that he hasn't worked for anyone for 30 years. I am assuming he wasn't counting those refereeing jobs. :confused: He specifically said he supported himself, including buying houses and cars for his kids :rolleyes: from sports betting and blackjack play. This stood out to me when I first read it several years ago, because I know he has not been supporting himself from blackjack play as he claimed. He just doesn't have the knowledge about a simple concept like variance to do so. People that really support themselves from blackjack play (and even seriously supplement income) completely understand the variance of the game, the swings that occur and the bankroll necessary to safely play, so this variance isn't an issue.
Anyone, and I mean anyone that starts talking about winning for years, or decades with no or minimum variance, simply doesn't understand the game, nor know what they are talking about. Period! Midwest player, you might remember someone else in the blackjack community who is completely full of shit that made those same variance claims. :confused:
So when I first read that variance nonsense by Moses, I knew he was full of shit and did not support himself in anyway from blackjack play. This was several years ago. I just never felt the need to call him out on it. Contrary to what people may think I don't go around calling everyone out that I think is partially or completely full of crap and/or embellishing their story. There is some responsibility for people to figure this out for themselves...you know, figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. :) But when Moses started using this false variance shit to try to discredit me, which he did over and over, here and elsewhere, then yes, I called him out and exposed him as clearly not knowing what he is talking about concerning variance.
Now on top of all that you CAN NOT play Reno regularly for any kind of reasonable stakes. It is a fantasy. Most professional or serious blackjack players don't even bother with Reno, it is so sweaty. A few like Bear, and a couple others pop in once or twice a year, likely on weekend for a few days, knowing they can't play more than that at green/black stakes.
So look, I now know how old Moses is and I don't want to reveal that, but if his 30 year claim is true, then he made those millions by the time he was 30, not 45. Do you really think that happened? I don't even care. If he made money (or even inherited money) and has just played as a hobby for 30 years, supplementing or whatever, he should have said that. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't look down on players that aren't playing professionally and are supplementing or playing recreationally, yourself included, as well as several others like C. Panther from the old forum. I learned a hell of a lot from guys like that. AND I have always said, supplementing or playing part-time, with a reliable income or retirement is really the best scenario.
Now one final thing, I haven't read the long posts he made today, other than the quick scan I just mentioned. But someone PMed me that these posts are "sympathy posts", as part of an effort to get re-instated here. I don't know if Dan is reading or what Dan is thinking. Personally I hope it doesn't work. That is not about me being unwilling to let go and move on with someone I don't care for. Beside all the hate he has spewed at me and the physical threats, perhaps the biggest thing, a line crossed, was his threat to come to Vegas, find me, identify me and reveal that information to casino personnel around Vegas. Any mention of such a thing should immediately make someone an enemy of the whole AP community.
Interesting story Moses. Thanks for sharing. Questions: What percentage of your earnings come from sports betting and how much comes from blackjack? Where do you find the biggest advantage in sports betting? I’ve just been getting into sports betting in the last year. I know I have a lot to learn in this area.
It sounds like your sports career was much bigger than mine. I topped out in intramurals although if I must brag my teams did win the intermaul championship in flag football one year. I like basketball more, but my intramural football teams always did better.
I like the NFL too and had dinner recently with a Super Bowl winning coach. It’s interesitng how these people aren’t much different than high school football coaches I’ve known. I actually went to a Super Bowl, with everything comped, and even stayed in the same hotel as the football team. It was quite the experience seeing one of the football players sending his two kids down the elevator the day of the game with his parents. I happened to be in the elevator at the time. I’ve given one of my better plays in intramurals to the coach but I doubt if it’ll show up in a Super Bowl anytime soon. I’m into the razzel dazzle stuff. Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Blob21, you remind me of Dicaprio in the movie Titanic when he is having dinner at the captins table telling the group how he won his ticket at a poker game and the previous night he slept under a bridge.
One night you are having dinner with a super bowl winning coach, and the previous night you slept under a bridge in Reno with new friends from a sports book.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...56763135666556
Bosox, I can tell Moses is the type person I would enjoy spending a weekend with. He’s real...he’s interesting...he’s intelligent...he’s from the midwest. I think we’d have a good time.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Blob21, you remind me of Dicaprio in the movie Titanic when he is having dinner at the captins table telling the group how he won his ticket at a poker game and the previous night he slept under a bridge.
One night you are having dinner with a super bowl winning coach, and the previous night you slept under a bridge in Reno with new friends from a sports book.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...56763135666556
Hey, I’ve also spent time with one of our presidents. It was obviously a Republican because I wouldn’t get caught dead with a Democrate. Lol. It was during a time I was dating a girl fairly high up in a presidential election campaign and she got invited to the inaugural ball. It was quite an event, getting security clearance, renting a tux and all. But yes, there I was on the dance floor dancing next to the presdent and his wife. Not for long, but I did meet him, talk to him, danced on the floor next to him and shook his hand.
I’ve also studied under a nobel prize winner in one of the sciences who has been honored by the US Senate for his work. I just found that out from Wikipedia. I study under him for 5 years and we did have our disagreements but never once did he call me names. That’s why it hasn’t bothered me when Don Schlesinger or other APs call me names. I’ve learned this is just what APs do to each other. It’s a stange culture. It’s not how scientist treat each other.
As I’ve told you many times, I only have one thing left on my bucket list and that’s to see Frieghtman spilt tens. You’ve told me many time it’s something I have to see in person to fully appreciate. I’m hoping sometime in the future I can experience it firsthand, before I leave this earth. Since you know Frieghtman, I was hoping you could set it up.
[QUOTE=Bob21;87470][QUOTE=BoSox;87469]Bob21, have you considered running for President of the World ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Obviously it is just a stepping stone to President of the Universe but you have to start somewhere.
[QUOTE=tableplay;87477][QUOTE=Bob21;87470]Good point! I’ve thought about it, but right now I’m just trying to master this AP stuff and understand the AP culture. It’s interesting. I’ve learned what it takes to debunk something in AP logic...just two APs beleiving something isn’t so. So I’m getting there. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxBob21, have you considered running for President of the World ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
Obviously it is just a stepping stone to President of the Universe but you have to start somewhere.
Closing lines from a Moses post on ZZ:
"So regrets? There are no regrets when you give it your all. I suppose, if there is one regret, it's I didn't take that job with the CBA in 1984. Most NBA officials today make a million a year. lol Ironic, I ran into an old friend last night who was a college official and did the assigning for NBA games."
I do not blame you in the least what the hell difference is a measly 10 to 15K a year loss in income when you can avoid all the travel and enjoy the success of life, while betting games sorrounded with friends in a sportsbook making more now than you'll ever need anyway. If you took the officials job you could only throw out of a game a overly rude player. Now if someone gives you lip your current woman will be encouraging you to smack down whomever the MF is. She seems to like the fight game especially if she can get you into it.
the flick can now be rented on Amazon for $4.99 - I think one dollar less if you have Prime
https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Edge-P...sr=1-1-catcorr
I watched the show on Amazon last night. Pretty good. Recognized a lot of names and faces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Smoke
I just watched inside the Edge last night. I enjoyed the movie, even though it was mostly about being backed off as he drove around the country playing at different casinos.
Something that didn’t make sense is when KC said he had to leave Vegas and could no longer play there since he was too widely known. I would think with all his disguises, he could have kept playing there for as long as he wanted.
I figured that part was more of a plot device to justify his trip around America. At any rate, it was a good movie. It really showed the variance in the game as he went on a two month losing streak losing over $300,000 during this time.
You can get this show for n/c with something my son recently installed on my TV--it's a "jailbroken firestick" with IP Vanish. Even gets recent movies like John Wick III and the new Godzilla movie and others. Even though I don't understand it or even want to understand it, it really an advantage play all-around. For certain Amazon Prime shows you have to disconnect the VPN to watch it.
Sounds good but does it have the yes/no double up feature?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Bosox, now that’s a good one. One of your better one liners. I laughed when I read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxSounds good but does it have the yes/no double up feature?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Moses, I just read your comments on KC. Made me laugh. Yeah, this guy (KC) had a brutal 2 and a half month streach where he lost about $325,000. The movie shows his wins/losses at each casino. There for a while he was just getting hammered. He started out on a good winning streak, winning about $600,000, but then gave half of it back over the next two months, before it turned around again. At the end of 12 months, it looked like he won slightly more than half million. He was playing big stakes. His story was believable.
When I watched the movie, I thought of Yoshi and Joe who have claimed to make a $500,000 to a million dollars year after year playing bj. On GWAE, Yoshi claimed to have several $100,000 winnning sessions. The majority of time, KC’s wins and losses were in the $10,000 and under range, and he was constantly getting kicked out. Yoshi said the casinos just let him hammer them for $100,000 without doing anything. Something didn’t sound right in their stories.
It seems like lately there has been quite a few of these young kids (like in their 20s) on GWAE claiming to make big money in bj traveling the country. Makes Rob’s double up story seem like peanuts. Lol. Personally, I don’t think there are that many casinos that are going to let it happen. I mean it’s not like they haven’t seen a card counter before.
Better than average humor. If you folks only knew how just mentioning that brings me back to the mountain top.....I've felt like a king every time I've walked into any casino over the past 15 years--even if I lose these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxSounds good but does it have the yes/no double up feature?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I haven't yet seen the documentary as I have been very busy racking up mega hours of late. Going to be doing extensive travel this summer beginning next week, so it is one of many things I can catch up with while flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I really don't want to prejudge, but I feel like this story has already been told. Seems like the premise is not all that different than the Church team story and even a couple others, and while that was interesting to me, as a professional player I got a funny feeling from it like, the "goal" was really more about making the movie that anything else. And to make it interesting you need to focus on the heat, and backoffs, and create some sort of element of danger....James Bond-ish. Maybe Roinhood-esque. :rolleyes:
That really isn't what I consider professional blackjack play to be. Granted we are talking about an entirely different level (much higher stakes than I play) and much more of a slash and burn style. Not to pick on Colin or the church team or anyone from a couple of the other teams, or even a handful of solo players that engaged in this slash & burn "casino tour" and in a matter of months or a year or so at the longest, are unable to play almost anywhere. I mean shouldn't the goal be to achieve some sort of longevity? Years, decades of making a living, rather than a short time, which almost seems more about making a movie than anything else, followed by writing books and running bootcamps, and what not.
There are a lot of players and I am not just speaking of these high profile players, that seem to think backoffs, barings, being read the trespass act are some sort of badge of honor. Like THAT verifies something. Frankly, I feel just the opposite, the real "achievement" is figuring out how to keep playing a winning for years and years. Figuring out what style and limits are tolerated. Again, that is just me. A different style, different limits and different goals I guess. :rolleyes:
Still, there is always something to be learned from other player's experiences....even if it is what NOT to do.
Excellent post Kj. For the record, I feel the same way. With this said, I still enjoyed the movie. KC’s story was believable, and entertaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJI haven't yet seen the documentary as I have been very busy racking up mega hours of late. Going to be doing extensive travel this summer beginning next week, so it is one of many things I can catch up with while flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
I really don't want to prejudge, but I feel like this story has already been told. Seems like the premise is not all that different than the Church team story and even a couple others, and while that was interesting to me, as a professional player I got a funny feeling from it like, the "goal" was really more about making the movie that anything else. And to make it interesting you need to focus on the heat, and backoffs, and create some sort of element of danger....James Bond-ish. Maybe Roinhood-esque. :rolleyes:
That really isn't what I consider professional blackjack play to be. Granted we are talking about an entirely different level (much higher stakes than I play) and much more of a slash and burn style. Not to pick on Colin or the church team or anyone from a couple of the other teams, or even a handful of solo players that engaged in this slash & burn "casino tour" and in a matter of months or a year or so at the longest, are unable to play almost anywhere. I mean shouldn't the goal be to achieve some sort of longevity? Years, decades of making a living, rather than a short time, which almost seems more about making a movie than anything else, followed by writing books and running bootcamps, and what not.
There are a lot of players and I am not just speaking of these high profile players, that seem to think backoffs, barings, being read the trespass act are some sort of badge of honor. Like THAT verifies something. Frankly, I feel just the opposite, the real "achievement" is figuring out how to keep playing a winning for years and years. Figuring out what style and limits are tolerated. Again, that is just me. A different style, different limits and different goals I guess. :rolleyes:
Still, there is always something to be learned from other player's experiences....even if it is what NOT to do.
Kew, That was a great post. You gave some insight on the game which you play and it was interesting.
I have amazon prime so watched it there. The dude was slashing and burning across the whole US. He wont be welcome in a casino anywhere in short order.
Rob, I thought you were a man of principle, what happened to you protecting yourself with your ten year statute of limitations theory? Did you privately record your son doing the installation on your TV set for "to cover your ass" the purpose of giving him a hard life lesson on how to keep things quiet? Anyway it seems like you passed down to your siblings all of your life's skills on how to buck the system with unsavory advantage plays, good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
You certainly don't understand me Bo. You're talking to someone who made money filing a bankruptcy in 1996.
I see myself as a refined product of the US Government. 10 years of training & work is all it took to master the art of becoming an advantage player in life. After that nasty career I literally ad-libbed my way into a decent aerospace career. And then came the video poker chapter--actually my finest moment. This firestick stuff is not even white noise.
You learn early on that it's all a numbers game throughout life. Play it well and you live it well. People in general are the true assholes they are when they're driving. Remember that when you meet them at bars or social functions, shake their hands at business meetings, or talk sweet nothings to them over-the-counters. Think of how much better off you'd be if you only had to deal with dogs or horses instead. People take from you from the get-go, they will stab you in the back at your place of employment just to get ahead, they'll lie about you to others in order to appear superior to you, and they'll do things to you that you wouldn't conceive of doing to anybody ever.
People are given a choice: live....or be eaten alive. And it almost always comes down to being about numbers. Learn to play the game WITHOUT HURTING ANYONE IN THE PROCESS, understand that financial institutions' #1 goal is to financially rape as many of their sheep as possible without regard, accept the fact that all politicians until Trump have not and do not care one bit about the lives of anyone other than themselves, respect your families and your bodies as the miracles that they really are, and you will have a great opportunity to lead a successful and fulfilled life.
Go Bruins!
Hey, Rob. How's the foot doing?
Rob singer wrote:
You certainly don't understand me Bo. You're talking to someone who made money filing a bankruptcy in 1996.
I know Rob you use every tool available to you, you should be so proud. That above quote says it all!
The foot is in the boot. That should rhyme but it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Operation on the 21st to insert screws. Driving up to visit our daughter in Mn. as soon as the Dr. allows it. Should be in early August. Gonna be miserably hot this week. What's been my best summer advantage play? Before the electric company put in these non-tamperable electric meters around 1980, people used to flip them around on the hot summer weekends so they'd run backwards, and throw an old shirt over them to cover them up.
And I am. I should have added "...but I didn't have to".Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
It's all in the way you choose to use your tools.
FAIL!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Speaking of Bruins futures: https://theskepticalgambler.blogspot...es-passed.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by jbjbFAIL!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
My dad did the same thing with those electric meters back in the 70's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerThe foot is in the boot. That should rhyme but it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Operation on the 21st to insert screws. Driving up to visit our daughter in Mn. as soon as the Dr. allows it. Should be in early August. Gonna be miserably hot this week. What's been my best summer advantage play? Before the electric company put in these non-tamperable electric meters around 1980, people used to flip them around on the hot summer weekends so they'd run backwards, and throw an old shirt over them to cover them up.
Rob has had enough bragging rights with the Red Sox and Patriots.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjbFAIL!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Yeah I know, but it's fun to needle him a bit :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmRob has had enough bragging rights with the Red Sox and Patriots.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjbFAIL!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
P.S. you forgot the Celtics back in the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6aPOkCt84
I am bumping this thread started by Half Smoke, about the documentary Inside the Edge. Yesterday someone at GF linked to this doc, and although I have seen it several times, I started watching again. My brother who has ended play for the year and is just sort of chilling and I watched it today. He said hadn't seen it before. I don't know how that happened.
I am sure most real AP's even if they aren't into blackjack or play blackjack anymore has seen this documentary by KC. It really is extraordinary on several levels. There are things to be learned and take-aways for blackjack card counters at every level and style of play.
KC's 12 month journey, literally and figuratively is exactly how card counting works! KC had a great first 6 months winning about 600K, then experienced a severe downturn lasting several months in which he lost half of that amount and then in the final couple months rebounded back to $500k. At one point KC states that every card counter will experience losing periods lasting month, which is something I have harped on for more than a decade. Playing a fraction of KC's max bet, I have had similar downturns of 30K, 5 different times. That is just the way it works. And you have to learn to deal with it without freaking out.
In card counting I often refer to two approaches, the slaughter vs shearing. Slaughter is obviously playing high stakes, for as long as you can before you are banned everywhere. Shearing or sometimes called the milking approach is playing lower stakes, drawing less attention and milking it for as long as you can. KC's approach was obviously the slaughter approach, because of both the stakes and style he played. There is no blending in or hiding what you are doing. And he didn't!
So besides, being a very entertaining documentary and showing exactly how card counting works with the variance and swings, we saw firsthand the heat and backoffs that come with this higher stakes "slaughter" approach. KC was trespassed at lots of places and some before he even set foot in the casino or played a hand.
That should make anyone viewing ask themselves "well what if a player didn't play such high stakes and style that drew so much attention?" "What if a player was able to figure out stakes and a style of play that was better tolerated?"
And that is exactly what I did my first 10-12 years in Vegas and what my brother has done for 7 years now. It can be done. And it is being done, by more than just myself and my brother. And it can still be done. As much as things change....they also remain the same. :) Like Munchkin said in the doc, you just need to figure ways around some of the obstacles.
I think my brother benefited from watching this doc today, especially just wrapping up his first year significantly below expectation. More important, anyone interested in, getting into or even that has been into card counting for years can benefit from this video. Showing you what you might want to NOT do as much as what you might want to do.
That is all. The haters will post nonsense now. Merry Xmas.