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I am not other people! Please stop making jokes about me being Kentry and Luscious Sweet, I promise I am not them! .
Here is a list of all of my accounts across gambling websites.
Karen Nathan
Knathan
Michelle Parker
Nathan
Sandy
Tasha.
I promise those 6 names are all the accounts I have!
You and Kentry write very similar and use the same type of phrasing. Dont you find that odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Two different people on another website both posted exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, even down to the same very second! Coincidences happen Axel. I am not Kentry, I promise!Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfYou and Kentry write very similar and use the same type of phrasing. Dont you find that odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
I find it odd you, me or anyone tries to ask reasonably logical questions of someone who doesn’t have the mental capacity to respond. History shows again and again, they have never answered questions asked of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfYou and Kentry write very similar and use the same type of phrasing. Dont you find that odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
They seek attention over and over from forum to forum over many years. With the same denials and half truths. The only commonality is the same poor life situation, location in Miami and love of slots along with the lottery.
But as a rich man who rides buses once said, those are all just coincidences.
F. Lee Bailey: So Mr. Fung....If. That's. Your. Real. Name.... On the morning you collected this very important forensic evidence at Mrs. Simpsons residence.... Prior to collecting this evidence did you happen to take a shower that morning?
Fung: Yes!
Bailey: And in so doing Mr. Fung did you wash your hair?
Fung: Yes!
Bailey: Subsequent to washing your hair Mr. Fung did you use a cream rinse?
Fung: No!
Bailey: Do you mean to tell this court that you collected all of this extremely important forensic evidence while have dry split ends? YOU MAKE ME SICK!!!!!
Uh, Mickey? What are you talking about? :\Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
It's a Gallagher joke about the O.J. Simpson trial. I put it up for all the Inspector Cluseau's on your tail.Quote:
Originally Posted by TashaUh, Mickey? What are you talking about? :\Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
My goodness, you are right up there with Bob21!
At least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
My goodness, you are right up there with Bob21!
Just someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
My goodness, you are right up there with Bob21!
Bosox, this is one of your dumber comments, and you’ve made many, so that’s not saying much. You could make the argument that I’m looking for attention, but no one could make the argument that I’m looking for acceptance. I mean I defend the casinos for doing what they are supposed to do, and I make intelligent arguments when I see people say stupid things. This has given me a black eye within the AP community, if there is such a thing. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
To my defense, nobody has ever given me the AP code of conduct manual so I’m kind of flying by the seat of my pants.
I think he was referring to Nathanasha, not you BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Bosox, this is one of your dumber comments, and you’ve made many, so that’s not saying much. You could make the argument that I’m looking for attention, but no one could make the argument that I’m looking for acceptance. I mean I defend the casinos for doing what they are supposed to do, and I make intelligent arguments when I see people say stupid things. This has given me a black eye within the AP community, if there is such a thing. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
To my defense, nobody has ever given me the AP code of conduct manual so I’m kind of flying by the seat of my pants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
My goodness, you are right up there with Bob21!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Bob, the reference was to Tasha, but in all honesty, I would not insult her by trying to compare her with your style of underhanded deception.
Thank you for not insulting Tasha. Classy move! I have no idea what you mean by underhanded deception. Even you have said I’m one of the most consistent logical people you’ve ever known. So you’re now calling that underhanded deception?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Bob, the reference was to Tasha, but in all honesty, I would not insult her by trying to compare her with your style of underhanded deception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Thank you for not insulting Tasha. Classy move! I have no idea what you mean by underhanded deception. Even you have said I’m one of the most consistent logical people you’ve ever known. So you’re now calling that underhanded deception?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Keystone
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Bob, the reference was to Tasha, but in all honesty, I would not insult her by trying to compare her with your style of underhanded deception.
I call it the way I see it, Bob. When you join a site using a new handle and then immediately get involved in a heated discussion and slamming people without letting anyone know who the fuck you are is in my mind disgusting. The people you insult are often the same ones you compliment at other times for helping others including yourself. No problem with someone for disagreeing with anyone but slamming someone with an anomymous handle is not going to win you any future favors.
Ps: I have never called you logical.
Bosox, good to know you call it the way you see it. I wouldn’t want you call it any other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Thank you for not insulting Tasha. Classy move! I have no idea what you mean by underhanded deception. Even you have said I’m one of the most consistent logical people you’ve ever known. So you’re now calling that underhanded deception?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxJust someone looking for acceptance or attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeystoneAt least we know Bob is a guy...who knows WTF this one is...maybe both?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Bob, the reference was to Tasha, but in all honesty, I would not insult her by trying to compare her with your style of underhanded deception.
I call it the way I see it, Bob. When you join a site using a new handle and then immediately get involved in a heated discussion and slamming people without letting anyone know who the fuck you are is in my mind disgusting. The people you insult are often the same ones you compliment at other times for helping others including yourself. No problem with someone for disagreeing with anyone but slamming someone with an anomymous handle is not going to win you any future favors.
Ps: I have never called you logical.
As far as your other comments, they make no sense. I’ve said this many times, but I’ll go over it once more since I know some APs are slow. I’m not saying you’re slow. I came on this site to ask Moses a question about blackjack. That was my original motivation. Yes, I used a different handle on this site but that was to get a straight answer from Moses. Looking back on it, i probably didn’t need to do that. As you know, I don’t have a very good following on BJTF since I’m an independent thinker and don’t always agree with AP orthodoxy. I was worried that if I asked Moses my question with my dbs handle, Moses might not have given me the in depth answer he ended up giving me. Knowing Moses better now, I can see I was wrong.
Yes, I’ve got into some heated debates on this site and others when I believe in something. Since most APs are liberals and I’m a conservative, I’m usually at odds with them. I’m sorry if you have a problem with people that think differently than you. That’s your problem, not mine. I’m different than you. I enjoy hearing viewpoints different than mine, even when I don’t agree with them.
Ps: As far as the word logical, you are correct you never used this word to describe me. But you have used consistent and I’ve always seen these two words as flowing together so I took some liberties and threw them together. My bad.
PPs: I would think you’d like that I have different handles on different sites. You were the first to discover this and it’s why you’ve become famous (that is in the forum world) and people refer to you as Bobo, forum detective.
BoSox:
I call it the way I see it, Bob. When you join a site using a new handle and then immediately get involved in a heated discussion and slamming people without letting anyone know who the fuck you are is in my mind disgusting. The people you insult are often the same ones you compliment at other times for helping others including yourself. No problem with someone for disagreeing with anyone but slamming someone with an anomymous handle is not going to win you any future favors.
Ps: I have never called you logical.
Bob21 reply:
Bosox, good to know you call it the way you see it. I wouldn’t want you call it any other way.
As far as your other comments, they make no sense. I’ve said this many times, but I’ll go over it once more since I know some APs are slow. I’m not saying you’re slow. I came on this site to ask Moses a question about blackjack. That was my original motivation. Yes, I used a different handle on this site but that was to get a straight answer from Moses. Looking back on it, i probably didn’t need to do that.
Dbs, if you look closer at my above quote I did not say that it pertained to when you joined this site with another handle to ask Moses a question. For the record I was referring about another site you joined with a new handle which is all meaningless anyway because it is in a the past tense. It just goes to establish the type of character you lack.
Bosox, we’ve hashed this out before and I still don’t get either your or kj’s point. I know what you’re referring to. It was on blackjack info and I asked Kj his opinion on if he thought Joe’s story on GWAE podcast was believable. Since my handle is different on blackjack info, Kj didn’t know I was Bob21 when I asked this question.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
I didn’t believe the story because Joe said he made $500,000 in six months starting out. This didn’t sound believable. He made several other claims that didn’t sound believable, like playing with a dealer that delt 700 rounds per hour. He sounded like many APs I’ve known who are prone to exaggeration. Kj listened to the podcast and said he bought Joe’s story. Then he somehow found out I was Bob21 on this site and went off on one of his rants saying he’d have answered my question differently if he’d have known who I was.
This is what I don’t get with APs. Why is their answer different depending on who asks a question. This makes no sense, but I guess in the AP world it does. Who knows? I wonder if Kj gives different answers to the question what is 2 + 2? Is his answer different depending on who asks that question?
Bosox, since you and Kj are buddies you’ve never forgiven me for asking a question with a different handle. You have a very strange opinion of what is right or wrong. Having a different handle on different sites is the worst thing someone can do in your book. That’s who you are. I don’t understand it, but after being on these forums for a while I get this is how you think.
I agree, a few coincidences can happen. Many coincidences plus your history are no longer coincidences. Unique phrasing, obscure book references that just happen to sync up with one of your aliases, the timing, your history, the same interests, same location, similar stories, similar pet peeves, and the list goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by TashaTwo different people on another website both posted exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, even down to the same very second! Coincidences happen Axel. I am not Kentry, I promise!Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfYou and Kentry write very similar and use the same type of phrasing. Dont you find that odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Bob21, I don't know why you have such a hard time figuring this out. I ran into a similar situation involving coach belly some months ago. Coach wanted me to answer a few questions regarding the publication "Tipsters or Gypsters?" I wasn't going to answer coach belly because, in my opinion, he questions APs differently than he questions non-APs. He's always trying to pull "gotchas" with APs. So I said I wasn't going to answer his questions because it was him, but if Dan Druff or kewlJ or mickeycrimm asked the same questions, I would answer them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Bosox, we’ve hashed this out before and I still don’t get either your or kj’s point. I know what you’re referring to. It was on blackjack info and I asked Kj his opinion on if he thought Joe’s story on GWAE podcast was believable. Since my handle is different on blackjack info, Kj didn’t know I was Bob21 when I asked this question.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
I didn’t believe the story because Joe said he made $500,000 in six months starting out. This didn’t sound believable. He made several other claims that didn’t sound believable, like playing with a dealer that delt 700 rounds per hour. He sounded like many APs I’ve known who are prone to exaggeration. Kj listened to the podcast and said he bought Joe’s story. Then he somehow found out I was Bob21 on this site and went off on one of his rants saying he’d have answered my question differently if he’d have known who I was.
This is what I don’t get with APs. Why is their answer different depending on who asks a question. This makes no sense, but I guess in the AP world it does. Who knows? I wonder if Kj gives different answers to the question what is 2 + 2? Is his answer different depending on who asks that question?
Bosox, since you and Kj are buddies you’ve never forgiven me for asking a question with a different handle. You have a very strange opinion of what is right or wrong. Having a different handle on different sites is the worst thing someone can do in your book. That’s who you are. I don’t understand it, but after being on these forums for a while I get this is how you think.
If someone has an agenda you perceive as at odds with your values, then you have every right, even an obligation, to not answer them. If someone has been disrespectful to you or your friends, then why answer them? You owe them nothing. So if that someone who has an agenda you perceive as anti-you pretends to be someone else so as to extract an answer from you, they have deceived you. You have every right to be pissed off at the deception.
Why is this so difficult to grasp? Sounds as if you may do a lot of online deceiving, and you want people to be okay with it.
Telling lies successfully is almost impossible...lies change, the truth does not change.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
If an honest person becomes agitated or confused by certain questions, he need only remember the truth and cling to it.
A person who is lying cannot cling to the truth, and conflicts appear within his answers.
Someone who seeks the truth can recognize these conflicts and expose them.
Righto. "Deep thoughts" by coach.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyTelling lies successfully is almost impossible...lies change, the truth does not change.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
If an honest person becomes agitated or confused by certain questions, he need only remember the truth and cling to it.
A person who is lying cannot cling to the truth, and conflicts appear within his answers.
Someone who seeks the truth can recognize these conflicts and expose them.
Hey, coach, you did everyone a real service by not asking Argentino tough questions, didn't you? That's a rhetorical question. You did Argentino a service, and all of his readers a disservice. I assume now you'll hammer him about the discrepancies in his figures?
Righto.
Okay, i’m going to try one more time even though I’ve gone over this before. There is ONLY one person I have ever tried to deceive with a different handle and that is Moses and he is no longer on this site. I have previously stated why I did this so I won’t go back over it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
I had registered on Blackjack info at least a year or two before I asked Kj a question. I use Blackjack info so seldomly I didn’t even know what my handle was when I logged in that day. Since this handle thing seems to be such a big issue within the AP community, I would change all my handles to the same one if there is a way I could do it. You got to remember when I started out on these forums no one handed me the AP code of conduct manual. I’ve latter come to find out APs have a lot of strange beliefs.
I have never tried to deceive Kj or Bosox in any way, and neither one can show you where that has happened. Kj is just upset he answered my question without knowing who I was, as if that mattered. There was no “gotcha moment” after I asked Kj that question about Joe. I was truely interested in his opinion since he’s a professional bj player. He believed Joe’s story was believable and I didn’t. Where’s the “gotcha” moment in this?
Since that time Kj has answered several of my questions and responded to my posts without me asking for his input. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don’t. What’s wrong with that? Why do APs feel like someone has to agree with everything they say? That’s not normal. I have many friends where we disagree on things but we’re still friends.
Why do APs take things so personally when someone doesn’t agree with them. Why does Bosox make such a big deal over nothing? These are the mysteries in life that we’ll probably never understand.
Bob21 wrote:
Bosox, we’ve hashed this out before and I still don’t get either your or kj’s point. I know what you’re referring to. It was on blackjack info and I asked Kj his opinion on if he thought Joe’s story on GWAE podcast was believable. Since my handle is different on blackjack info, Kj didn’t know I was Bob21 when I asked this question.
I didn’t believe the story because Joe said he made $500,000 in six months starting out. This didn’t sound believable. He made several other claims that didn’t sound believable, like playing with a dealer that delt 700 rounds per hour. He sounded like many APs I’ve known who are prone to exaggeration. Kj listened to the podcast and said he bought Joe’s story. Then he somehow found out I was Bob21 on this site and went off on one of his rants saying he’d have answered my question differently if he’d have known who I was.
Bob, "I might as well mention Moses as well as he responded to the above quote" once again you have given the wrong story that I was referring to and frankly I could care less as it is in the past tense. On a side note, Bob, you are having a lot of cruel fun at Zee's expense and frankly I don't think Moses or anyone is finding it enjoyable. The real asshole is you Bob.
Bosox, for someone that could “care less”, you should seem to bring it up a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
I don’t know what you are talking about as far as being “cruel fun at Zee’s expense”. I defended Zee from you and your gang and he thanked me. It’s you, Freightman and 21forme that continue to attack and ridicule Zee. All three of you jump on Zee, even when he makes good posts.
Why is that? Were you one of those bullies in junior high school that roomed the halls picking on weak people, the nerds? Is this what makes you feel big and important?
Bob21 wrote:
I don’t know what you are talking about as far as being “cruel fun at Zee’s expense”. I defended Zee from you and your gang and he thanked me. It’s you, Freightman and 21forme that continue to attack and ridicule Zee. All three of you jump on Zee, even when he makes good posts.
From Moses perspective today:
"To say Zee is a unique individual would be an understatement. No, if I had to bet, I'd go up to -139 that Bob doesn't give two poops about Zee's trips reports. But Zee has brought just a wee bit on himself. No? Zee is far smarter than he let's on in a forum. I question if Zee is even a real person. Hell, Zee might be Bob.
It seems, without controversy, there is no forum. Zee certainly creates controversy."
BoSox:
Bob21, I have to agree with Moses on this one. Why don't you give Zee a break by stop telling others about the strength of Zee's game. He takes you serious and encourages him to carry his posts further not realizing you are then sitting back eating popcorn enjoying the show.
Okay Bosox, Let’s go back to the BJTF thread that caused this controversy. It’s called “Comments to other APs who approach your table”. On post No. 6, Zee made a nice thoughtful post saying, more or less, he thought it was funny when another AP got backed off after only one shoe when this guy spread 1-12. Zee was only spreading 1-5 and didn’t get backed off. Zee said nothing about any other aspect of his play.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Then you, Freightman and 21forme went into overdrive attacking and ridiculing Zee. Freightman attacked Zee for making bad plays in the past, even though Zee made no comments about any of his plays in this post. You jumped to Freightman’s defense, which is what you do. And 21forme just attacked Zee, well, because that is what 21forme likes to do.
I came to Zee’s defense since he made an excellent point (his point was basically play within casino tolerance so you don’t get kicked out) and I could see you, Freightman and 21forme were attacking him for no other reason than because you enjoy attacking him. It’s the same reason bullies like to put nerds down in school. It gives them a feeling of superiority.
Please go back and read this thread on BJTF. I stayed on topic and you and your gang were off on tangents, just looking for someone to ridicule and make fun of. That’s not how I’m wired. I’m sorry to hear this is how you are wired.
Bob21 wrote:
Okay Bosox, you have once again misquoted me. I have NEVER told “others about the strength of Zee’s Game.” This is an outright lie.
I am not lying, Bob in post #9 in that thread you wrote:
"21forme, in case you haven’t read any of Arnold Synder’s books, I’d argue this shows the strength of Zee’s game. Zee is able to play and “get away with it”. Anybody can play and get thrown out quickly. That takes no talent.
Btw, did you attend one of the BJA Bootcamps? This is their strategy. Play with no cover and expect the backoff and then rinse and repeat at the next casino."
You can say what you want about the handle thing Bob21, but using different handles gets confusing and I believe that is your intent. As I said, most AP's use the same handle or a very similar version of throughout sites in the community. The people that have completely different handles, and you later find out so-and-so on one site is joe-bob shit face on another are almost always the trollish type guys, stirring the pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Okay, i’m going to try one more time even though I’ve gone over this before. There is ONLY one person I have ever tried to deceive with a different handle and that is Moses and he is no longer on this site. I have previously stated why I did this so I won’t go back over it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
I had registered on Blackjack info at least a year or two before I asked Kj a question. I use Blackjack info so seldomly I didn’t even know what my handle was when I logged in that day. Since this handle thing seems to be such a big issue within the AP community, I would change all my handles to the same one if there is a way I could do it. You got to remember when I started out on these forums no one handed me the AP code of conduct manual. I’ve latter come to find out APs have a lot of strange beliefs.
I have never tried to deceive Kj or Bosox in any way, and neither one can show you where that has happened. Kj is just upset he answered my question without knowing who I was, as if that mattered. There was no “gotcha moment” after I asked Kj that question about Joe. I was truely interested in his opinion since he’s a professional bj player. He believed Joe’s story was believable and I didn’t. Where’s the “gotcha” moment in this?
Since that time Kj has answered several of my questions and responded to my posts without me asking for his input. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don’t. What’s wrong with that? Why do APs feel like someone has to agree with everything they say? That’s not normal. I have many friends where we disagree on things but we’re still friends.
Why do APs take things so personally when someone doesn’t agree with them. Why does Bosox make such a big deal over nothing? These are the mysteries in life that we’ll probably never understand.
I also think you just mis-characterized my position on the "joe story (from GWAE). Yes, when you asked me my opinion, I hadn't put together who you were. I don't want to have to go around trying to figure out who different people are and what handles they post under on different forums. So, I took the time to listen to half of the Joe-GWAE interview because I didn't know it was YOU asking. Had I know it was you I wouldn't have bothered because I think for the most part you are playing games (trolling).
Now, I don't think I issued a definitive opinion that I believed Joe's story based on half an interview that I listened to. I might have said something to the effect that I found some things credible. There is a big difference. When you listen to or read these stories, it is much easier to spot 'red flags' that raise questions than anything else. A number of these red flags and you might find the person NOT credible. But the absence of any red flags or just one or two doesn't prove that they ARE credible. That is a higher standard.
The fact is that there are quite a number of these guys running around with similar stories over the last 10-15 years. That is the time frame that casinos exploded in the US to where there were new casinos and jurisdictions popping up every month or so and that is the period that all these similar slash-and-burn stories have appeared with both individual players and teams taking advantage of all these new venues with this slash-and-burn routine, traveling around, playing high stakes until you are 86ed and then move on to a new crop of casinos. It seemed like a good approach with all the new venues, but it could never be anything but a very short-term deal as technology today is working against players. Those 86ings and the info on you arrive at the next destination before the players do. :confused:
So it ended up all these guys....all these different stories run the same way. They get in some play, sometimes a year or two (early on), sometimes only months playing these high stakes. And if variance is with them, maybe they make hundreds of thousands, maybe a million or two (divided up among team members), before they are burned out everywhere. And then they are writing books and running boot camps and telling their story on GWAE. :rolleyes:
And if it just so happens that variance is against them they could dig a big hole to start out as several of these guys and teams did and be lucky to get back on the plus side before the rug is permanently pulled out from under them. (where is the Yikes emoji). This slash and burn style just isn't what professional blackjack is to me. Professional blackjack play, especially via card counting is a grind. You are grinding out a very small edge. Any kind of game plan that is short-term and the gig could be up in months or a year, just doesn't work. You could end up on the wrong side of the variance bellcurve. Blackjack play is a longterm deal.
It isn't really my place to offer my opinion on these individual stories. I have said that I get the feeling at least some of them, the project was more about the movie or book that was going to follow than about a money making blackjack experience.
So I don't think I said "I believe" this Joe's story. I tend to believe the stories where I find no red flags AND that I know players or members of the community that personally know the person and vouch for them (preferably more than just 1 member of the community). I don't know "joe". I don't recall anyone that I do communicate with vouching for him and I only listened to half of an interview. So I don't think I said "I believe his story. I may have said I don't see any red flags that would lead me to not believe him. (this is back to the lower standard).
700 rounds per hour. :confused: That seems slightly high to me. But do-able I suppose. If you are lucky enough to find a heads up game with a dealer that is willing to work with you and understands that you want to play fast, you can easily 300-400, maybe 500 rounds per hour. BUT that situation occurs very infrequently.
Bosox, the bottom line is I was defending Zee from the forum bullies (you, Freightman and 21forme) who enjoy attacking people just because you enjoy attacking people. It appears to be what makes you feel important.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
I came to Zee’s defense because he made a very good point I think all newbies should hear...stay within casino tolerance or you’ll get kicked out. I stayed on topic, while you and your buddies brought up things about Zee that had nothing to do with Zee’s post or the topic at hand.
Bosox, this is how I’m wired. I will always stick up for the underdog who is attacked for no reason. I get that you and your gang of bullies like to attack people and go off topic because this is what you enjoy. Hopefully, you will grow out of it.
Bosox, I am a bit confused as to who you are saying said this, but this is just not a winning game plan in 2019. The databases and entries in the databases, travel faster than the player to the next destination. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSox
Should we really be discussion Zee and his game? :rolleyes: Perhaps one of the biggest anomalies in the blackjack community in years. ;)
I like Zee. I communicated privately with him from time to time. When I came across an entry in OSN that was definitely him, I forwarded it to him, as several other did, so he would know.
Zee was his own worst enemy. People in the BJ community often say I post too much for my own good. Take that and multiply it by 100 and you have Zee. He almost dared the industry to "notice" him and take countermeasures.
And really he had a good thing going. He was only trying to supplement so he was playing at levels that were tolerated. He was willing to travel, so as not show his face too frequently. At least on his Vegas trips he would play short sessions which also increases longevity. And at time, he would play "scared" and be unwilling to even throw out his top or max bet, which had the effect of an even smaller spread. These things also benefitted him because when an evaluation of his play did occur, they probably concluded he just wasn't playing a winning game. A couple such determinations, especially early on in one's career can definitely extend longevity. :)
But in the end, Zee couldn't help himself and strongly contributed to his own downfall. And he got some help from a few people in the community that did everything they could to contribute to his downfall. :(
Let me add one more thing about these "holy grail", juicy, heads up situations. They can be kind of a trap, especially if part of your regular rotation. For starters it is such a 'juicy" opportunity that we tend to play longer than we should, over exposing ourselves. I have built in exit triggers and I know sometimes I ignore and over-extend. I mean just a half hour at a fast paced heads up game, can provide one shit load of information about your play, your spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
And here is the really unique thing about this situation. You are playing safe on THAT session. Anyone evaluating your play from above won't be able to evaluate it in real time. They are going to have to go back and slow it down. So any heat that comes will come on your next visit. Those are the situation that sometimes occur where you walk in barely play and get backed off. That backoff is a result of your last visit. So after a successful heads up session of any length of time, it is best to put some distance between your visits to that location.
KJ Wrote:
"Bosox, I am a bit confused as to who you are saying said this, but this is just not a winning game plan in 2019. The databases and entries in the databases, travel faster than the player to the next destination."
That was Bob21 who asked 21forme the question.
KJ wrote:
Should we really be discussion Zee and his game?
No, we should not and I am sorry that I did. Consider it finished.
Kj, thanks for your replies. They made sense. Not to get off topic, but there were so many red flags in Joe’s story, I don’t know where to start. But for purposes of this post, let’s start with the 700 rounds per hour claim. Joe said this casino had this dealer (let’s call him”super dealer”) around to take care of counters. This to me was a huge red flag! What casino keeps a “super dealer” around to take care of counters? I’ve been playing for quite a while and read a lot of bj books. This made no sense. Guess what a casino does if they think your counting? They back you off or trespesss you. They don’t bring in “super dealer”.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJLet me add one more thing about these "holy grail", juicy, heads up situations. They can be kind of a trap, especially if part of your regular rotation. For starters it is such a 'juicy" opportunity that we tend to play longer than we should, over exposing ourselves. I have built in exit triggers and I know sometimes I ignore and over-extend. I mean just a half hour at a fast paced heads up game, can provide one shit load of information about your play, your spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
And here is the really unique thing about this situation. You are playing safe on THAT session. Anyone evaluating your play from above won't be able to evaluate it in real time. They are going to have to go back and slow it down. So any heat that comes will come on your next visit. Those are the situation that sometimes occur where you walk in barely play and get backed off. That backoff is a result of your last visit. So after a successful heads up session of any length of time, it is best to put some distance between your visits to that location.
There were many other red flags in his story. That’s why I was surprised when you said you found his story credible. I did not. The only part I found credible is when he said he made a contraption so he could pee in his car. This was so stupid, it had to be true. Most people leave their car when they pee.
As far as my many different handles, I’ve gone over this many times but I’ll try once again. I had no grand scheme on why this happened. It’s like how I come up with passwords. I come up with a different one each time that I need one. I thought of a handle the same way. It was a way to get access to these sites. The only time I gave it some thought is when I came on this site and I wanted to “deceive” Moses so I could ask him a question about his game.
About being a troll. That’s the furthest thing from my motivations. Do I have a sarcastic humor? Yes. Do I use hyperbole to make a point? Yes. If using hyperbole and being sarcastic is the same as being a troll then I guess I’m a troll.
I’ve enjoyed these forums and learned a lot from them. It doesn’t bother me when people think differently than me or attack me since I’m confident in my beliefs. I’m not a follower like Bosox.
And for Bosox’s benefits, I will come to someone’s defense when I see the forum bullies, which Bosox has decided to be a part of, attacked. That will never change.
Based only on my own experiences, I will say you are very wrong on this one Bob21. There are different mindset for casinos just as there are for people. Some casinos are notoriously sweaty and their very first countermeasure will be a backoff. These are usually smaller, very sweaty places, the likes of El Cortez, Joker's Wild (Henderson), South Point, which is not that small but very sweaty, and Valley Forge (pa) to name a few. A small spread at very moderate stakes will get you a backoff. The result to their paranoia is that they back off players that aren't even playing a winning game as well as players that aren't even counting, just altering bets. Just idiotic. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Kj, thanks for your replies. They made sense. Not to get off topic, but there were so many red flags in Joe’s story, I don’t know where to start. But for purposes of this post, let’s start with the 700 rounds per hour claim. Joe said this casino had this dealer (let’s call him”super dealer”) around to take care of counters. This to me was a huge red flag! What casino keeps a “super dealer” around to take care of counters? I’ve been playing for quite a while and read a lot of bj books. This made no sense. Guess what a casino does if they think your counting? They back you off or trespesss you. They don’t bring in “super dealer”.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJLet me add one more thing about these "holy grail", juicy, heads up situations. They can be kind of a trap, especially if part of your regular rotation. For starters it is such a 'juicy" opportunity that we tend to play longer than we should, over exposing ourselves. I have built in exit triggers and I know sometimes I ignore and over-extend. I mean just a half hour at a fast paced heads up game, can provide one shit load of information about your play, your spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
And here is the really unique thing about this situation. You are playing safe on THAT session. Anyone evaluating your play from above won't be able to evaluate it in real time. They are going to have to go back and slow it down. So any heat that comes will come on your next visit. Those are the situation that sometimes occur where you walk in barely play and get backed off. That backoff is a result of your last visit. So after a successful heads up session of any length of time, it is best to put some distance between your visits to that location.
BUT most places in my experience a backoff is not the first countermeasure or warning. Not even usually the second. Most places if you get backed off you have missed or ignored a couple "warning signs". Some of these warning signs are a reduction in penetration, a all-of-the sudden "chatty" pit person, attempting to distract you, and yes even bringing in very fast dealer to try to throw you off your game. Most player that have had this one occur and I have a few times, laugh about it, because it is a move that actually can be beneficial to the player. Except they won't allow it to go on for long. If it doesn't throw you off your game, they will quickly move to something else, which at that point is probably either a significant reduction in penetration, or the backoff itself.
The reason most places don't go straight to a backoff is because there is additional work involved with a backoff at most casinos (except maybe rinkydink places). And if they back off a player who turns out to not be counting, but a decent size bettor playing negative expectation game that can be problematic for the pit person who made that call. And if there are other players at the table, it really comes across as bad business to be telling a player they can no longer play. So they usually take other counter-measures designed to make you leave on your own.
Like I said, most places, if you are backed off, you have missed some other warning signs/countermeasures.
add-on: oh and that "very fast dealer", at the risk of stereotyping, usually Asian and usually female, isn't necessarily some sort of "specialist" only used for card counters. There are probably just faster dealers on every shift and they will just change up the rotation if they feel the need.
The “700 hands/hr” dealer was, according to the show, a former professional video game players. Was timed over only two shoes so perhaps was trying to at his/her best for the timing so perhaps it was normally a phenomenal 500 hands/hr otherwise or something, and he also mentioned he only used two bet sizes $25 and $300 to speed it up, and the dealer had a row of 37.50 green/red/whatever rainbow ready to go for blackjacks rather than have to pluck through three rows like normal on a $25 blackjack. I’ve seen maybe two dealers who might be able to do that if you optimize all that for speed, it’s a rare breed for sure but I don’t find that unbelievable if you can get that 0.01% of dealers heads up with two bet sizes.
My thread quickly went a 180 from what I intended it to be...:/
I went back and listened to this part of Joe’s podcast again. Here’s a couple of red flags in that story. This casino did not bring in “super dealer” to counter measure Joe. Joe went to the manager and requested this dealer and paid them so much an hour to deal to him. Who does that? I’ve never heard of a person going into a casino and paying a casino to have “super dealer” deal to you. Joe then had a pit boss come over to his table and time him so he could determine how fast he was dealing. It sounded like Joe had the whole casino working for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcap
Most card counters want to stay under a casinos’s radar and not bring attention to themselves. Joe did the opposite. He wanted the whole casino to watch his play, and, in fact, requested “super dealer” to deal to him. Joe never said if he paid the casino to make sure no other players were at the table.
Joe also said nothing about pen. Kj, I agree with you, usually a casino will reduce pen if they think you’re counting. It doesn’t sound like this happened to Joe. Joe never said how much he made at this casino but it sounded like he cleaned their clock, which made no sense.
No casino is going to just gonna sit back and let you play as they watch chips pile up in front of you. They might not know what you’re doing, but they aren’t going to just stand back and take a beating. At some point they are going to back you off. It didn’t appear like Richard believed much of this part of Joe’s story either. Richard had a hard time believing the 700 rounds per hour part was even possible.
Joe was the person who mentioned this dealer is usually at the casino as a countermeasure for counters. But this was NOT the reason Joe was playing against him. Joe was playing against him because he requested to play against...and, in fact, paid the casino to play against him.
This is only one example of one of his stories that didn’t add up. There were many many others. At one point, Joe said there are just the right amount of counters around, implying that’s why blackjack is a good career. How would Joe know what “the right amount of counters” are? As an AP, I know the fewer, the better. This was a stupid statement, saying “there are just the right amount of counters.”
You could tell a lot of Joe’s statements were self-serving and advertisements for Blacjajck apprenticeship. Colin was with Joe constantly putting plugs in for blackjack apprenticeship.
Kj, each person is entitled to their opinion. If you believe Joe’s story that’s your call. As for me, I believe the majority of it was exaggeration. I don’t believe he made $500,000 in six months his first year playing bj, or that he played against a dealer who could deal 700 rounds/hr. I do believe he built a contraption to be able to pee in his car.
Yes - another one is getting re-shuffled whenever you raise your bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Dan could you please split off all irrelevant posts to their own thread? What this thread has become has nothing to do with my OP. :/
Tasha, have you been keeping up with any of the threads? That happens with most of them. If your thread stayed on topic it’d be a unicorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Damn it Bob. You seem to have the same reading comprehension issues as another banned from this site. You read what you want to read, not what is written. I just laid out in no uncertain terms that I haven't formed an opinion as to whether I believe Joe's story. And if I have, I have no need to publicly share that opinion. It is almost like you are speaking for me, stating what my opinion is. Stop it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob21
If Joe requested a certain dealer, that would indeed be a red flag. Not only to me but to the casino. The first thing the casino is going to think is collusion. Player and dealer working together and they are going to be damn sure that is not happening. Translation: extra scrutiny. Requested extra scrutiny. Makes zero sense. The only situation where a player could get away with requesting a dealer would be a 'whale' requesting his "lucky" dealer. The casino would grant such a request if possible, but no until they were damn sure the player was in fact a 'whale' and not an AP.
Another of these countermeasures or warning signs is a pit critter coming over to the table and flipping through the discard tray to see if many small cards had come out. Some of these things are as much about just seeing what the players response is.
Take the reduction in penetration for example. Pit walks over and whispers in the dealers ear. At the next shuffle penetration is reduced to an unplayable 50%. If the player has no reaction, they may dismiss this initial suspicion and return to normal. BUT if the player immediately colors up and leaves because the game is now unplayable, he has just confirmed those suspicions. If this situation occurs you might want to consider playing on for at least a bit, especially if it is a regular casino in your location. It really is a cat and mouse game, especially in Vegas, and sadly, achieving longevity is about learning to play the game. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Tasha, I am sorry if you are offended that your thread, went in a different direction. That is a frequent occurrence on these forums. It is also a form of the membership deciding what they want to discuss and rejecting what they don't. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Not to be mean, but the fact is that YOUR threads are the threads that are off topic. The name of this forum is Vegas Casino Talk. Most of your topic have little or nothing to do with Las Vegas, Casinos, or gambling topics.
Again, I don't know how to say this without being mean, but this forum as gone down hill, straying even further off topic since you arrived. And I didn't think that was possible. :rolleyes: You were tolerated far too long at WoV in my opinion. I guess because some of the membership found you and the situation amusing.
I look at the past few weeks when I have been busy and posting infrequently and I see this site almost dead. A few Tasha nonsensical threads. Mickey laughing at and highlighting the political imbalance at WoV. Dan sharing his losing baseball picks. And I guess some activity in the Monopoly Game thread that I don't read. What a waste of a forum supposed to be on the topic of Las Vegas, casinos, gambling and somewhat related advantage play.
But what do I know. I am beginning a two month road trip across country today, and expect to be checking in very infrequently if at all. So have at it, continue to turn this site into Tasha/Nathan private blog. Maybe you can turn this forum into another Zen Zone, where there is ONE single active poster. ;)
Well at WOV I bent over backwards to suck up to suck up to WOV Posters and Members and try to fit in there. The majority of WOV Members talked crap about The Lottery and Slots , games I actually love, but I talked crap about them too thinking I'd get brownie points and fit in. It didn't work and I even got advice like,"You seem pathetic joining in the trash talking of games you actually love just to try to fit in on WOV. " Definitely not the fitting in I was expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJQuote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Tasha, I am sorry if you are offended that your thread, went in a different direction. That is a frequent occurrence on these forums. It is also a form of the membership deciding what they want to discuss and rejecting what they don't. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Not to be mean, but the fact is that YOUR threads are the threads that are off topic. The name of this forum is Vegas Casino Talk. Most of your topic have little or nothing to do with Las Vegas, Casinos, or gambling topics.
Again, I don't know how to say this without being mean, but this forum as gone down hill, straying even further off topic since you arrived. And I didn't think that was possible. :rolleyes: You were tolerated far too long at WoV in my opinion. I guess because some of the membership found you and the situation amusing.
I look at the past few weeks when I have been busy and posting infrequently and I see this site almost dead. A few Tasha nonsensical threads. Mickey laughing at and highlighting the political imbalance at WoV. Dan sharing his losing baseball picks. And I guess some activity in the Monopoly Game thread that I don't read. What a waste of a forum supposed to be on the topic of Las Vegas, casinos, gambling and somewhat related advantage play.
But what do I know. I am beginning a two month road trip across country today, and expect to be checking in very infrequently if at all. So have at it, continue to turn this site into Tasha/Nathan private blog. Maybe you can turn this forum into another Zen Zone, where there is ONE single active poster. ;)
Tasha, the good news is you fit in here. The only way not to fit in here is if you treat someone nice. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by TashaWell at WOV I bent over backwards to suck up to suck up to WOV Posters and Members and try to fit in there. The majority of WOV Members talked crap about The Lottery and Slots , games I actually love, but I talked crap about them too thinking I'd get brownie points and fit in. It didn't work and I even got advice like,"You seem pathetic joining in the trash talking of games you actually love just to try to fit in on WOV. " Definitely not the fitting in I was expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Tasha, I am sorry if you are offended that your thread, went in a different direction. That is a frequent occurrence on these forums. It is also a form of the membership deciding what they want to discuss and rejecting what they don't. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasha
Not to be mean, but the fact is that YOUR threads are the threads that are off topic. The name of this forum is Vegas Casino Talk. Most of your topic have little or nothing to do with Las Vegas, Casinos, or gambling topics.
Again, I don't know how to say this without being mean, but this forum as gone down hill, straying even further off topic since you arrived. And I didn't think that was possible. :rolleyes: You were tolerated far too long at WoV in my opinion. I guess because some of the membership found you and the situation amusing.
I look at the past few weeks when I have been busy and posting infrequently and I see this site almost dead. A few Tasha nonsensical threads. Mickey laughing at and highlighting the political imbalance at WoV. Dan sharing his losing baseball picks. And I guess some activity in the Monopoly Game thread that I don't read. What a waste of a forum supposed to be on the topic of Las Vegas, casinos, gambling and somewhat related advantage play.
But what do I know. I am beginning a two month road trip across country today, and expect to be checking in very infrequently if at all. So have at it, continue to turn this site into Tasha/Nathan private blog. Maybe you can turn this forum into another Zen Zone, where there is ONE single active poster. ;)
All kidding aside, i think this is a good thread. It has a lot of good tangents throughout, which is a sign of a good thread. As Moses recently pointed out on his island (zen zone), this is a good way to share valuable AP trade secrets without all the casino lurkers knowing what’s going on.
Thank you for your insight and your compliments! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob21Tasha, the good news is you fit in here. The only way not to fit in here is if you treat someone nice. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by TashaWell at WOV I bent over backwards to suck up to suck up to WOV Posters and Members and try to fit in there. The majority of WOV Members talked crap about The Lottery and Slots , games I actually love, but I talked crap about them too thinking I'd get brownie points and fit in. It didn't work and I even got advice like,"You seem pathetic joining in the trash talking of games you actually love just to try to fit in on WOV. " Definitely not the fitting in I was expecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
All kidding aside, i think this is a good thread. It has a lot of good tangents throughout, which is a sign of a good thread. As Moses recently pointed out on his island (zen zone), this is a good way to share valuable AP trade secrets without all the casino lurkers knowing what’s going on.